So, the Forge of War explination of, "Karrnathi commanders tried a frontal attack unless it was obviously the wrong thing to do" just seems....trite. Similarly, explinations relying on the fractured nature of the Karrnathi command structure just make it seem like (as one of the Last War Grognards put it) "they were too busy arguing over what order to take over the rest of the world." I just don't find that palateable either.
The only other reason I've heard is that Karrnath always sought a battlefield decision, and traded political victories for military ones. But, still, that means Karrnath would be whuppin' a lot of ass, and you just don't really see that in Forge of War.
So, I open up the floor: Can you explain how Karrnath didn't steamroll everyone?
Greetings, all. I raise this question because its something that's always bothered me. In one of the other threads, we all agreed that Karrnath is the nation most likely to develop or have a staff system, thus giving it a major logistical edge. Furthermore, the Karrnathi military is always described as well-trained and well-equipped. Plus, undead legions. 'Nuff said.
So, the Forge of War explination of, "Karrnathi commanders tried a frontal attack unless it was obviously the wrong thing to do" just seems....trite. Similarly, explinations relying on the fractured nature of the Karrnathi command structure just make it seem like (as one of the Last War Grognards put it) "they were too busy arguing over what order to take over the rest of the world." I just don't find that palateable either.
The only other reason I've heard is that Karrnath always sought a battlefield decision, and traded political victories for military ones. But, still, that means Karrnath would be whuppin' a lot of ass, and you just don't really see that in Forge of War.
So, I open up the floor: Can you explain how Karrnath didn't steamroll everyone?
Well. I will try my best to answer this quickly, though there are longer, more in-depth discussions of this elsewhere, I'm sure.
First, apparently The Forge of War is not a particularly reliable source as far as Eberron material goes.
The biggest issue with Karrnath not winning the war is they started off in, by far, the worst position. They had a logistical edge in terms of leadership, but they started the war with plague and starvation. This derailed their initial military position considerably. Combine this with the arcane mastery of Aundair, and the mercenaries hired by Cyre, and you have them in... not quite the best position at the start of the war.
So Karrnath started out a bit behind. They then had various periods of disorder (see the removal of the Emerald Claw and Blood of Vol, or the disappearance of Kaius I), they started out in a poor position, and they did fight skilled opponents, though not necessarily skilled in the martial arts. The end result was that Karrnath actually almost LOST in the first years of the war, as opposed to just steamrolling the opponent.
Also, according to Keith Baker in the past, the Karrni elite undead could only be raised from an elite Karrni soldier who died in battle, as opposed to just any dead person. So, not as many zombies.
Greetings, all. I raise this question because its something that's always bothered me. In one of the other threads, we all agreed that Karrnath is the nation most likely to develop or have a staff system, thus giving it a major logistical edge. Furthermore, the Karrnathi military is always described as well-trained and well-equipped. Plus, undead legions. 'Nuff said.
So, the Forge of War explination of, "Karrnathi commanders tried a frontal attack unless it was obviously the wrong thing to do" just seems....trite. Similarly, explinations relying on the fractured nature of the Karrnathi command structure just make it seem like (as one of the Last War Grognards put it) "they were too busy arguing over what order to take over the rest of the world." I just don't find that palateable either.
The only other reason I've heard is that Karrnath always sought a battlefield decision, and traded political victories for military ones. But, still, that means Karrnath would be whuppin' a lot of ass, and you just don't really see that in Forge of War.
So, I open up the floor: Can you explain how Karrnath didn't steamroll everyone?
Well. I will try my best to answer this quickly, though there are longer, more in-depth discussions of this elsewhere, I'm sure.
First, apparently The Forge of War is not a particularly reliable source as far as Eberron material goes.
The biggest issue with Karrnath not winning the war is they started off in, by far, the worst position. They had a logistical edge in terms of leadership, but they started the war with plague and starvation. This derailed their initial military position considerably. Combine this with the arcane mastery of Aundair, and the mercenaries hired by Cyre, and you have them in... not quite the best position at the start of the war.
So Karrnath started out a bit behind. They then had various periods of disorder (see the removal of the Emerald Claw and Blood of Vol, or the disappearance of Kaius I), they started out in a poor position, and they did fight skilled opponents, though not necessarily skilled in the martial arts. The end result was that Karrnath actually almost LOST in the first years of the war, as opposed to just steamrolling the opponent.
Also, according to Keith Baker in the past, the Karrni elite undead could only be raised from an elite Karrni soldier who died in battle, as opposed to just any dead person. So, not as many zombies.
Well they still had zombies and such, just not the elite ones. It was primarily just fluff that the Karnnathi Skeletons and Zombies were created from elite Karnn soliders.
Much of Karnnath's military might was centered in cities that spent a lot of time behind enemy lines. Thrane marched quite quickly over the White Arch Bridge and occuppied Rekkenmark(a major military academy) for a good period.
Also, I think you're underestimating the warlords not cooperating with each other and losing ground because of it.
Karnn's advantage wasn't so overwhelming that it couldn't be overcome through circumstance or other means.
Make a point of having some sage NPC share in an enthusiastic and hushed tone that one of the great unknown secrets of the Last War (among the handful of historians educated enough on matters to see the big picture, of course) is why Karrnath didn't win despite clearly having the means and the wherewithal.
Have the academic explain excitedly that there's no string of defeats, no political disadvantages turned against them, nothing in the known history to explain Karrnath's failure to take the continent. Whatever hindered Karrnath enough to keep it from conquering Khorvaire, it was not only indescribably powerful, but utterly invisible.
Pause for the players' breathless silence, then just try and keep them from chasing the slightest lead on the subject.
In any case, the reason I raised this question is because a.) I am just that nerdy, and b.) I'm a (low-level) military historian. So......
Oh that's good.
Right, I just re-read your post, MrC, and I fixiated on the, "utterly invisible" part of your post.
In the campaign I'm planning on running, the Mourning was caused a Cyrean attempt at protecting their country with arcane knowledge given to them by the Lords of Dust for the purpose of freeing the Overlords. Therefore, Karrnath, with its lack of an arcane tradition (aside from the Twelve, which kinda doesn't count), would be a threat to the machinations of the LoD.
Mwa ha ha ha ha. Well done, gentlemen.
But, I'm still curious about the in-world explination of why Karrnath didn't dominate. I just don't need it for this iteration of Eberron.
Edit: No, no, killing him would arouse too much suspicion....but framing him for murder, and then using political connections to speed up the death penelty process.....
Yet their resources were running dangerously low by 1943 and thanks to constant bickering in the higher ups they suffered a critical defeat at Stalingrad. When the Soviets captured the Ploseti Oil fields by 1944 I believe that basically spelled doom for the oil-dependant units of the Nazi army.
Plus, they were up against armies that learned their lessons and were considerably toughened: the Soviets from the initial weeks of the invasion; the British from the Fall of France; and the Americans from North Africa (and to a lesser extent Kasserine Pass).
Karrnath was wrecked by constant failed harvests, plague, and fighting on multiple fronts. Honestly, I'm not surprised they weren't able to steamroll the rest of Khorvaire.
Plus, the Cyrans were using Valenar mercenaries, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Valenar elves were equal to, if not better than the average Karrn soldier in terms of equipment and training.
Well they still had zombies and such, just not the elite ones. It was primarily just fluff that the Karnnathi Skeletons and Zombies were created from elite Karnn soliders.
Yes and no.
To begin with, they didn't always have zombies and such. Historically, Karrnath was the heart of Galifar's martial tradition, but the undead were never part of that tradition. Asura8 is correct: Karrnath had a strong mundane military, but this edge was handicapped by famine and plague. This limited their ability to act at the start of the war and drove them into a dangerous position. It was this that caused Kaius to form an alliance with the Blood of Vol, and only than at which the undead became part of the Karrnathi forces on any level... and you can be certain that this wasn't an easy transition for many Karrns. Even today there are many Karrn soldiers who despise the use of undead in battle, as seen with the Swords of Karrn in Stormreach. It took time for commanders to become comfortable with the use of undead and to learn how to make effective use of them in battle, and time for the BoV forces to integrate with other units. Fort Bones wasn't built in a day.
My detailed description of the process for creating Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies wasn't just fluff - or at least, if it is, it's fluff in the same sense that any piece of campaign material is fluff. If you check page 292-293 of the original ECS, both contain the statement "Karrnathi (skeletons/zombies) are created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle." This was specific and intentional. These were never supposed to be replacements for traditional skeletons or zombies created by animate dead, which still form the bulk of undead troops; they are an elite unit unique to Karrnath and the BoV traditions. This is also why they are called KARRNATHI skeletons, and not just "Elite skeletons" - because the fact that they are made from elite Karrnathi warriors is a fundamental piece of them.
A final thing to bear in mind is that Karrnath was the seat of Rekkenmark and the martial tradition of Galifar - but that commanders from ALL of the Five Nations studied at Rekkenmark before returning to their nations, just as the war-wizards of other nations were trained at the Arcane Congress and spies serving other nations were originally part of the King's Citadel. Once the war broke out these institutions were nationalized and nations developed their own versions of them. But initially, the Karrnathi and Brelish commanders were likely classmates from Rekkenmark. it's simply the case that Karrnath - as the seat of the military tradition - had MORE trained soldiers, Thrane a stronger Divine foundation, Aundair a huge Arcane edge, and Breland a strong advantage in manufacturing and intelligence. As a side note, I'll say that if you check all the posts I've always believed that an important part of Thrane's strength was always its expert peasant archers, due to the archery traditions of the Silver Flame - I call this out because it's one of the things Forge of War got wrong in its presentation of Thrane.
Plus, the Cyrans were using Valenar mercenaries, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Valenar elves were equal to, if not better than the average Karrn soldier in terms of equipment and training.
The Valenar were FAR better than the average Karrnathi soldier. The average Karrnathi soldier would be a first or second level warrior (looking to 3.5 terms), while we've set the average Valenar as a fourth to sixth level PC-class character (Typically ranger, often mixed with fighter, rogue, or wizard)... something discussed in this article. You may say "First or second level warrior? I thought the Karrns were great!" And they were. The bulk of most nations armies was first level warriors or commoners; The Karrns had a higher ratio of warriors, more 2nd-level warriors, better equipment, and a better understanding of tactics across the board. Thrane had its skilled archers (mostly 1st level human warriors) but these were peasant militias with less large-scale discipline than the Karrnathi forces. And when you reach to the ELITE forces, you see more distinction along the national specialties.
The key on the Valenar is that there's always been far, far fewer of them than the armies of any other nation and they can't quickly replace losses - it takes decades to produce those Valenar skills. So essentially, the Valenar are a 100% elite force... while the other nations all had their own elite forces, but the bulk of the armies were commoners and warriors.
In any case, you are correct. The presence of the Valenar was crucial for Cyre... which is why the Cyrans reached out to them in the first place, freeing them from the vow that had kept them from returning to Khorvaire.
I think there could be a problem with that. And it showed up as the Last War was coming to a close. The Valenar Elves broke from Cyre and formed their own nation. The Valenar are very much a militaristic society, and that is a problem. For all of Khorvaire. I'm thinking that the Valenar, if given the manpower, could really start wars all over the place.
The only thing that holds them in check is their numbers. A society like theirs need war to survive, which is strange if you think about it. There is no society in real life that I know of that needs war like the Valenar. The closest is Greece, and inside Greece, Sparta. But the Spartans even wanted peace and hated war. After all, the Spartans did advance slower than their opponents, making them think about what was going to happen if they clashed spears and swords.
The Valenar Elves broke from Cyre and formed their own nation. The Valenar are very much a militaristic society, and that is a problem. For all of Khorvaire. I'm thinking that the Valenar, if given the manpower, could really start wars all over the place... A society like theirs need war to survive, which is strange if you think about it.
The Valenar are quite different from all of the other cultures on Khorvaire. One of the points that's been made in the past is that most likely, the Valenar don't actually want to start wars with other people - rather, they want other people to start wars with them. Their behavior is deliberately antagonistic, because they are trying to provoke one of the other forces - like Karrnath, for example - to come after them.
The Valenar simply lack the numbers to conquer and control one of the Five Nations. But beyond that, such a conquest would be pointless on every level. They already have more land than they can use; they don't fight for resources. Rather, they fight because it is the basis of their religion. They seek to preserve the spirits of their ancestors by reenacting their deeds. And their ancestors weren't conquerors: they were heroes who fought a guerrilla war against fearsome odds. The giants of Xen'drik were a mighty foe, but the ancient elves knew their homeland and used cunning and courage to face the sheer might of the giants. So common theory holds that the purpose of seizing Valenar from Cyre wasn't because they wanted a kingdom - but rather that they wanted a killing ground. They've spent the last sixty years getting to know everything about the land. So that when Karrnath, Breland, Darguun or whoever finally accepts the challenge and sends an army their way, the Valenar will be able to truly reenact the conflict of their ancestors: a small group of heroes relying on sheer skill and knowledge of the land to overcome a foe who has an edge in raw power.
If the Dreaming Dark had their plans overturned by the Mourning, then they just need to start a war somewhere so that they can finish their social planning for Khorvaire. There's dozens of Flashpoints, but Karrnath is the least likely to go to war since Kiaus has other concerns (and being undead, I don't think any of the Quori will find it easy to possess him).
In fact, I'll write a little short story around the idea that Valenar and Darguun relations are not exactly cozy. As soon as I have a good idea to work with. There's still a Main Character and an Impact Character to consider.
Honestly, if Valenar is going to provoke someone to do that, Darguun is the most logical flashpoint.
Certainly, and the Valaes Tairn have a history of conflict with the goblins, so they'd be happy for that. The main thing is that there's no rush. It's part of that lives-for-centuries mentality. They've already been working towards this for sixty years; they could work at it for another if need be, as long as there's a sense of progress. It could be that they'll fight a stronger Karrnath in ten years - or that they'll fight a reunited Galifar in twenty. In the meantime, they are strengthening their roots in Valenar and preparing, while continuing to provoke the neighbors. The actual enemy doesn't matter, as long as it's strong enough to pose a challenge; the main thing is that they'd rather fight a defensive war on ground they know well than to invade another nation - because it's the best model for the conflict their ancestors fought. And, of course, if it does go poorly, they can retreat to Aerenal. They have the advantage that they ultimately don't care about the territory of Valenar - so they can sacrifice it if they need to.
And I have no problem it being set in Thronehold or Rekkenmark. Things are not hot, they are cold now. A cold war.
Certainly the Dreaming Dark probably changed their plans to operate in the new cold war environment. Not to mention that the Pulp era had its spy stories.Lhesh Haruuc would be relatively hardpressed to unite all the goblin clans and tribes in order to launch an invasion. Retaliatory strikes would be more likely.
Q'barra is mostly disparate lizard folk/dragonborn tribes and the fledgling human kingdom isn't that formidable. They're not going to invade, let alone retaliate..
The Lhazzar Principalities is a largely lawless region, and it's less likely every prince is going to send their fleets to Valenar because someone are raiding them. They do it to each other all the time. I doubt Valenar ships (as rare as they must be) are as much of a concern.
The Talenta Plains are sparsely populated and the Halflings are nomadic hunters, not marauding invaders.
That leaves Karnnath, which has a sizeable population, strong martial history and most importantly of all, would unite against a foreign threat and attempt to invade them. If you want to start a big war with a high chance of the enemy invading your home turf, they're definitely the ones you want to start it with.
I'm betting they're a little dissapointed that Cyre and the rest of the Five Nations didn't put up more of a fight when they flat out betrayed them and usurped a huge chunk of their territory.
The goblin trilogy actually deals partially with the conflict between Darguun and Valenar. It involves at least one big skirmish, almost battle (a few hundred opponents on both sides). In this case the goblins provoked the Valenar, who obviously saw their chance to provoke Darguun into a true war.
Beat me to it, Madfox.
After all, the Spartans did advance slower than their opponents, making them think about what was going to happen if they clashed spears and swords.
Hanson's The Western Way of War: Infantry Battles in Classical Greece has a whole lot of questionable statements in it (Hanson-bashing seems to be a sport in grad school), but one of the things I think that Hanson got right was that the hoplite was, initially in the battle, a shock weapon, depending on the momentum of the charge to punch his spear through an enemy's breastplate. After the charge, the phalanx clash would turn into the grind. Hanson pointed out that when a unit charges, it gets strung out, and distrupts the formation's integrity; the only units that I can think that could charge in lockstep were Swiss pikemen, who were the (mercenary) terror of Europe for a good couple hundred years.
Anyways. Hanson's argument was that the Spartans advanced at the walk to preserve their formation's integrity. This was more important to the Spartans because their hoplites were trained soldiers, who could work together; the conventional phalanx was really quite basic enough for pretty much untrained (albiet heavily-armed) farmers, and consisted pretty much of pushing forward against the enemy and stabbing ahead as much as possible.
Now, to sum up in a less-jumbled fashion: the Spartans advanced at the walk to preserve their formation, and enable their superior training to be implimented evenly across the line of battle. Had they charged, their formation would have been distrupted, thus lessening their combat power. I sincerely doubt that Spartans advanced at the walk as a sort of psycological warfare tactic; the pipes they used may have been handy for their eerie sound (they seemed to be similar to bagpipes), but really, they were used to keep step, and the eerie noise was just a welcome benefit.
Moving on from the lecture: Keith, I'm curious as to your opinion on some of the other threads that were started on these boards, specifically "Two Questions on the Militaries of the Five Nations," and "Yet More Crap About Eberronian Warfare." I'm particularly interested on your opinion on the former, as I feel it was a very fun thread addressing the possibility of a General Staff in Khorvaire. Truth be told, that thread was the proginator of this one; we seemed to agree that Karrnath would have been the most likely to have a General Staff, and would have thus had a major organizational edge over the other combatants.
Last, seeing as Karrnath has a great deal of forests and lumber-related industries, would it be good to assume that Karrnath had a large navy?
Last, seeing as Karrnath has a great deal of forests and lumber-related industries, would it be good to assume that Karrnath had a large navy?
Lumber is one thing, you also need access to good seas and an inclination to look in that direction. The Netherlands does not have all that much wood, but at some point it was a powerful enough naval country to be on par with Spain and Great Brittain. On the other hand, Sweden and Russia had more than enough wood, but I don't think they have ever been powerful naval countries (besides the vikings that is and even that had little to do with naval power). Karnnath has the wood, but the northern seas are rough and cold. There are few good spots for natural harbors, and no big reason for ocean trade. Looking at the map, Cyre seem to be more naturally inclined to develop a strong navy due to its location and focus on trade.
The Valenar are quite different from all of the other cultures on Khorvaire. One of the points that's been made in the past is that most likely, the Valenar don't actually want to start wars with other people - rather, they want other people to start wars with them. Their behavior is deliberately antagonistic, because they are trying to provoke one of the other forces - like Karrnath, for example - to come after them.
The Valenar simply lack the numbers to conquer and control one of the Five Nations. But beyond that, such a conquest would be pointless on every level. They already have more land than they can use; they don't fight for resources. Rather, they fight because it is the basis of their religion. They seek to preserve the spirits of their ancestors by reenacting their deeds. And their ancestors weren't conquerors: they were heroes who fought a guerrilla war against fearsome odds. The giants of Xen'drik were a mighty foe, but the ancient elves knew their homeland and used cunning and courage to face the sheer might of the giants. So common theory holds that the purpose of seizing Valenar from Cyre wasn't because they wanted a kingdom - but rather that they wanted a killing ground. They've spent the last sixty years getting to know everything about the land. So that when Karrnath, Breland, Darguun or whoever finally accepts the challenge and sends an army their way, the Valenar will be able to truly reenact the conflict of their ancestors: a small group of heroes relying on sheer skill and knowledge of the land to overcome a foe who has an edge in raw power.
Keith, I... I love you so much it hurts sometimes. <3
Keith, I... I love you so much it hurts sometimes. <3
Amen.
In any case, this brings up something else; to what degree did the Five Nations have experience fighting unconventional warfare? Drawing from the discussion about a staff system, each of the Five Nations has, in some way, shape or form, an unconventional enemy that it may have fought against for the bulk of the time of the Kingdom of Galifar. Breland has goblinoid raiders from the Seawall Mountains or raiders from Droaam. Aundair, crazies from the Eldeen Reaches or anything that can slip by the tribes guarding the Labyrinth. Karrnath, the savage orcs in the Mror Holds, rampaging halflings (Remember, they're barbarians! Riding dinosaurs! Its more scary than you think!), or whatever comes up from Q'Barra. Thrane is kinda an odd man out, but....bandits? *shrug* Nevertheless, it is quite possible that all of the Five Nations have experience fighting unconventional wars, which is why when it came to conventional war, nobody could hit hard enough to win.
Thrane was rather actively involved in hunting down demons and other evil creatures. As an army they might not have had much experience beyond ordinary bandits, but its elite forces are a different story. Note though that before the Last War Galifar was one nation. I doubt the core of the army consisted of citizens from one nation stationed in the same nation.
Well, a few things to consider about Thrane.
Thrane didn't have the same tradition of military service as Karrnath. But the Silver Flame has a strong martial foundation in its own right. Soldiers of the church trained to fight gnolls and ghouls instead of other humans, but that same training helped when war broke out - and once Karrnath did start employing undead, Thrane was the nation best equipped to deal with those forces.
Setting aside the soldiers in arms, the practice of archery is a form of religious devotion for followers of the Flame, in part because of that tradition of being prepared to fight supernatural evil. You also have the strength of shared faith - compared to rivalries among Karrnath's warlords and the fact that it took time for some of the military to accept the use of undead.
So Thrane had a fewer citizens with experience operating as part of a disciplined army. However, its peasant archers were definitely superior to the levies of most nations, and morale was high due to the shared faith - while Karrnath's morale was handicapped by famine.
Moving on from the lecture: Keith, I'm curious as to your opinion on some of the other threads that were started on these boards, specifically "Two Questions on the Militaries of the Five Nations," and "Yet More Crap About Eberronian Warfare." I'm particularly interested on your opinion on the former, as I feel it was a very fun thread addressing the possibility of a General Staff in Khorvaire. Truth be told, that thread was the proginator of this one; we seemed to agree that Karrnath would have been the most likely to have a General Staff, and would have thus had a major organizational edge over the other combatants.
I'll check them out when I have the time, but time is something I have in short supply at the moment. However, I do agree with your assessment that Karrnath would have been the seat of Galifar's General Staff and would have taken control of the insitution when the war broke out... just as Aundair had the Arcane Congress and Breland had the King's Citadel. However, like both of those institutions, it would have included people from other nations who would have returned to their nation when the war broke out - hence Aundair's first Royal Eyes were originally members of the Citadel, Karrnath's original warmages were trained in Aundair, and so on.
I'll check them out when I have the time, but time is something I have in short supply at the moment.
Y e a h.....they're kinda....long. And complicated. And....horribly grognardy? We put way too much thought into them, but they're fun.
Happy to hear you agree with (one of) our interpritations of the Last War. An excellent point on the fragmentation of Galifar carrying into the various supporting apparati; I never figured that the Royal Eyes could trace their heritage back to the Citadel.
Again, excellent points. I have to admit that my thinking re: peasants in warfare is very much colored by the Total War series of games, where peasants are......kinda a vulnerability because they have crappy, weapons, and morale. You look at them funny and hit them hard enough, and they route, which affects nearby units as well. The thought of peasants with decent skills is somewhat surprising. However, its not like there is no precedent; in this case, religious beliefs impel practice in at least one martial skill, whereas England in the Middle Ages had laws that compelled practice with the Longbow.
In any case, this brings up something else; to what degree did the Five Nations have experience fighting unconventional warfare? ...Thrane is kinda an odd man out, but....bandits?
There's all sorts of factors to bear in mind here. First, it doesn't matter WHERE you live: Khyber is below you. And Khyber is chock full of any kind of monster you can imagine, from organized troops of Dols to rampaging purple worms. At any time, something could pop up from Khyber to attack.
Second: Khyber's just below, but the planes are all around, and when they become coterminous the walls grow thin. Ghosts from Dolurrh, wraiths from Mabar, razor storms from Shavarath, Winter eladrin. demons, daelkyr and more - they're all just beyond reality, waiting to come through. Just ask the Dhakaani.
Third: Undead happen. Go back a few hundred years to when lycanthropy was contagious and it would only take a single werewolf to start a cascade. Set aside civilized monsters; there's still threats that can appear virtually spontaneously.
Fourth: As has been noted over the years, the population of Galifar has always been insufficient to fill the space it claims. The people cluster in more densely populated areas, but that leaves large regions where trouble can grow and thrive for years without being discovered - whether from one of the above sources or from a region like Droaam or Darguun.
This is what people often miss about the Church of the Silver Flame. They look at it and see the Inquisition - fanatics, zealots, witch-hunters pursuing a bloodthirsty or corrupt agenda. But Eberron is a world where supernatural evil is REAL. The Last War may be over, but there can be no treaty with Khyber, Xoriat, or the Lords of Dust. These threats are always there. Remember how the Church of the Silver Flame was born - an Overlord rising in Thrane. These things can happen and have happened. So yes, while they have generally been on a small enough scale that they havent changed the course of history, you can be sure that there have been many unconventional conflicts in the past.
This is what people often miss about the Church of the Silver Flame. They look at it and see the Inquisition - fanatics, zealots, witch-hunters pursuing a bloodthirsty or corrupt agenda. But Eberron is a world where supernatural evil is REAL. The Last War may be over, but there can be no treaty with Khyber, Xoriat, or the Lords of Dust. These threats are always there. Remember how the Church of the Silver Flame was born - an Overlord rising in Thrane. These things can happen and have happened. So yes, while they have generally been on a small enough scale that they havent changed the course of history, you can be sure that there have been many unconventional conflicts in the past.
In our current campaign the DM is certainly giving the Silver Flame its due ;) It was the only religion that gave us (the PCs) any practical aid in the struggle with what apparently was a rakasha serving an Overlord. It certainly changed my character's opinion on the church for the good even though it was tainted a bit earlier on in the campaign when we came across those zealots in Thaliost. They shouldn't rule a country, but they are certainly good to have around when dealing with evil supernatural forces. As always in Eberron, things are rarely black-and-white ;)
Meanwhile, I will have the Silver Flame adherants being more interested in doing good deeds and helping people with no thought of reward, like Tira. They'll proudly display their faith, but I never have them try to convert anyone to the faith- rather convert them to their principles like helping the weak, being honest, and being charitable. When the PCs find corruption, leaders in the church will actually provie assistance where they can (if the PCs have convincing evidence).
I like to turn the table on my anti-Silver Flame players as well. Typically, when they meet an evangelist or corrupt priest, it's a member of the Soverign Host. I play up the fact that they have no official heirarchy, so there's nobody higher up to actually appeal to...
It's a very good point. The reason we brought up the corruption in the Church in the original sourcebook wasn't because the Church was supposed to be any MORE corrupt than any other faith in Eberron (The Blood of Vol is perhaps the worst on that regard, with Erandis viewing the faithful as fools and tools), but because the mission of the CotSF is more compassionate and noble than that of most faiths - so it was worth calling out that even there you have corruption. But Jaela and others TRY to stamp out corruption where they find it, while there isn't really any oversight in the SH.
And it's why I threw the greedy SH priest into Stormreach in The Shattered Land - just to show that not EVERY corrupt priest out there is tied to the CotSF.
But the key to me is that it's not a "witchhunt" when the supernatural evil is REAL... and many people don't think about just how real that threat is. Of course, extraplanar incursions and monsters from Khyber DON'T appear every day, or humanity would be hard pressed to survive. But they could happen anywhere and any time. And extraplanar incursions don't have to be Daelkyr armies; they could simply be a single fiend slipping through to cause chaos. So the mission of the CotSF IS a vital one. And once you have that in mind, it's easier to see that it's not just a crusader/inquisition parallel, but really does have a certain level of Men in Black/Jedi Knight action - that they ARE standing between the public and danger. They're still human with all the faults of humans, and can still fall pray to zealotry and greed. And many within the Church itself belive that they SHOULDN'T be running a country (see City of Stormreach) as this pulls them into temporal politics and encourages corruption. But their mission is an important one.
Thrane is kinda an odd man out, but....bandits?
It's also worth noting that the faithful of Thrane have had a history of traveling to other regions to fight unconventional wars when required. The largest unconventional conflict described in recent centuries was the Silver Purge, which was a guerilla war lasting for decades and largely fought by Thranish templars; and the SF forces have always tried to be as prepared as possible for conflicts like this. They didn't have as large a standing army as Karrnath, but they were still ready to mobilize forces if, say, an army of aberrations swarmed up from beneath Sharn.
Of course, a key point here is that the Church of the Silver Flame doesn't simple mean "Thrane". The Church had (and still has) followers across the Five Nations - even in Karrnath. Thrane has always been its stronghold, and when the Last War began many of the faithful felt obliged to fight for Thrane. However, others believed (and still do) that their faith stood beyond mortal politics: the SF is devoted to protecting the innocent from harm, and if demons appeared on a battlefield, Brelish SF and Thranish SF should join forces to put them down. But when no supernatural threat exists, they can give their loyalty to their nation... and again, there are quite a few SF followers who don't feel the church has any place running a nation.
Seems like that could/would/did get messy REALLY fast once the church took over the country.
That's always something I wondered about, do the SilverFlame churches outside of Thrane still maintain the same hierarchy with the church system inside thrane itself?
Seems like that could/would/did get messy REALLY fast once the church took over the country.
I think they follow the Keeper of the flame in a spiritual sense, and may do something like travel to Flamekeep on pilgrimage, but the church has no secular authority over them. The stewardship of Thrane has "simply" become yet another task of the church.
And the idea of the church taking over rulership of Thrane is something that many, including a lot of the leadership in the church opposed for that very reason. It seems as if things did/do get messy because now anything anyone does in the name of Thrane (which existed centuries before the church and has its own history and culture, etc), is being done in the name of the church (not all Thranes are ideal followers of the faith or followers at all).
That's always something I wondered about, do the SilverFlame churches outside of Thrane still maintain the same hierarchy with the church system inside thrane itself?
Seems like that could/would/did get messy REALLY fast once the church took over the country.
It’s a very interesting question that hasn’t been discussed in detail. We’ve seen one example of an outspoken opponent of the theocracy being cut off from the Church, in the form of Stormreach. I expect they aren’t alone. However, the point there is “outspoken opponent”. I think that we should have a number of splinter groups, from ones like those in Stormreach (who still support the Keeper but actively condemn the theocracy) to people demanding the release of Melysse Miron. And it’s already been said that many of the faithful immigrated to Thrane rather than fight against Flamekeep. However, in terms of understand how the majority of the church could maintain its structure throughout the war, here’s a few things to consider.
First, bear in mind that the Church didn’t seize power as such; the people rose up against Daslin and demanded he step aside. There are even priests IN the hierarchy of Thrane who don’t think that it was the right move, but it was the driving force of the moment and they’re riding the storm. But it wasn’t driven by an overwhelming hunger for power on the part of the Church – the sort of hunger that would demand people across Khorvaire turn on their governments. Looking to a quote from Five Nations:
The overwhelming majority of Thranes are honest, proud, and passionate people who believe in the Church of the Silver Flame. Equally devoted to family and work, Thranes do nothing halfway. If a citizen of Thrane undertakes a task or agrees to serve a cause, he gives it his all. That said, few Thranes are mindless zealots. Most followers of the Flame tolerate other belief systems. After all, Tira Miron herself began as a paladin of Dol Arrah. The Silver Flame demands only that its followers fight evil, whether it’s evil incarnate—fiends, undead, and other abominations—or the evil that plagues the human soul. If a paladin of the Silver Flame senses evil in an innkeeper, he should try to find a way to bring that soul back to the light, not strike down the innkeeper or destroy his business.
Key points here: The Silver Flame is about fighting supernatural evil with sword and spell, while combating human evil with compassion and charity. Throughout the war, both of these things were needed in every nation. The soldiers who followed the Flame did their best to get their fellows to show mercy to their enemies and to prevent massacres and torture. Supernatural threats continued to be a threat across the continent throughout the war – often made worse by the magics unleashed during the war. The faith of the Silver Flame was NEEDED across the continent; to demand that the faithful abandon that duty for political purposes would have truly required the Keeper to turn on the faith and shattered the church as we know it. So while the church may have asked the faithful to accept its actions and condemned those who turned to false Keepers or actively opposed the theocracy, I think that in general it did encourage the faithful to continue to uphold the principles of the faith regardless of the flag they fought under – because the purpose of the Flame is more important than any human nation. Of course, from a political standpoint, this also means that the Church gets points for “We’re NOT trying to force you to choose between church and king” – and should Thrane annex your area, you’ll hopefully remember that and be more willing to accept the change and help in transition. If they force all the faithful out of the other nations or cause a bitter schism, they’d have that much more difficult of a time ever gaining a foothold in those regions.
As is, while Thrane is known as the nation of the Silver Flame, it’s worth noting that the faith has very strong roots in Aundair; in fact, Cardinal Dariznu of Thaliost is Aundairian.
One last Five Nations quote on the subject…
Theocratic laws and doctrine are not universally applied to the nation. Instead, a bishop or archbishop has the authority to determine what he thinks is best for the citizens in his domain.
This is what has allowed Dariznu to rule Thaliost with such an iron fist, but along with accepting-other-faiths-because-Tira-Miron-served-Dol-Arrah, it’s an example of the church saying “The local bishop best knows how to tend his flock” – a philosophy that would extend to letting the Brelish bishops continue to hold their posts during the war. Again, those who spoke AGAINST Thrane might be cut off – but in general, despite leading the country, the church has still tried to keep politics from threatening the mission of the church.
I think they follow the Keeper of the flame in a spiritual sense, and may do something like travel to Flamekeep on pilgrimage, but the church has no secular authority over them. The stewardship of Thrane has "simply" become yet another task of the church. And the idea of the church taking over rulership of Thrane is something that many, including a lot of the leadership in the church opposed for that very reason. It seems as if things did/do get messy because now anything anyone does in the name of Thrane (which existed centuries before the church and has its own history and culture, etc), is being done in the name of the church (not all Thranes are ideal followers of the faith or followers at all).
Agreed on all counts. The argument a supporter of the Theocracy would make - whether a Thrane or an Aundairian who would like to see Aundair join with Thrane - is that both of their countries would have been destroyed without the church. But yes, there are Thranes who don't follow the church and many IN the church who don't think the theocracy is a good idea.