How do you handle when PCs go to Deneith for help? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How do you handle when PCs go to Deneith for help?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ogiwan
Jan 28, 2010 10:02:23 Greetings, all. When I was running my game, my players uncovered the BBEG's plot, and they had to attack into the underground hideaway (which was a foundry, with metal scaffolding and streams of molten metal. It was pretty rockin', if i do say so myself.) They went, first, to the Sharn Watch, as the BBEG's plan was to drop a magic circle at said foundry and turn everybody in Sharn during the Race of the Eight Winds into a Karrnathi undead.

I managed to avoid them roping in the entire Sharn watch by playing the sort of, "that is my department, but I don't have much in the way of resources to give you, and they wouldn't believe me if I went up higher".

So, then they went to other major powers, specifically Tharashk and Deneith. Tharashk, I managed to make work (with assistance from my players) by letting them pay booku money for a ritual that would take 24 hours (putting it exactly into the time-frame which I wanted it to be in, i.e. last-second saving type.)

Deneith, though, was far tougher. They went to hire mercenaries, and I only managed to prevent them from attacking with an army by offering company-sized formations for like a six-month contract. I was very lucky they forgot about the bodyguards Deneith offers.

So, now I ask you, fellow DMs: How do you plan on controlling PC access to the kind of combat power Deneith brings to the table?
#2
Gilo
Jan 28, 2010 14:48:17 How about a skill challenge where the objective is to reach the hideaway. Along the way the PCs need to detect and overcome hazards, traps (given that they are the only trained adventurers with the skill to do it - the mercenaries are just muscle).

With each skill challenge failure - they are going to lose some of the Deneith mercenaries (remember the opening scene of "Raiders of the Lost Arc") deaths, injuries, desertion and betrayal.

Leading a large group of merceneris will require using skills such as Diplomacy, Insight and Intimidate along with the skills needed to overcome the traps and hazzards.

When the PCs and the remaining mercenries engage in a combat encounter: use the merceniers as a Terrian Power. You don't need to represent each mercenerie on the battlemat (they can have a swarm like icon) and give them some powers, let the players know what those powers are, then they can call on those powers duing combat. the powers will be as strong as the number of merceneris that surrived the skill challange.
#3
dan_vk
Jan 28, 2010 20:14:13
So, now I ask you, fellow DMs: How do you plan on controlling PC access to the kind of combat power Deneith brings to the table?

As far as I know, House Deneith still adheres to the same policy of neutrality they maintained throughout the Last War. As such, whoever the players deal with may decide to decline the work offer because the situation looks too politically delicate. House Deneith mercenaries also won't fight other members of House Deneith and the seniority of the contract determines which group stands down, so if the BBEG has already hired Deneith mercenaries then the ones the players hire won't fight.
#4
Gilo
Jan 28, 2010 21:31:24 The skill challenge I offered above was following the DMing philosophy of "Learn How To Say Yes" to player ideas. of course DMs don't usually like their PCs walking around with mercenary armies.

I think that the PCs should evenly realize that using a mercenary force in dealing with your BBEG has allot of cons:

- It take time to hire and mobilize the mercenaries, and the BBEG may processed with his evil plans.
- you lose the element of surprise
- they will get allot of the mercenaries dead (does the PC want that on their conscience)
- its costly
- the mercenary are not necessarily reliable, trustworthy.
- a powerful BBEG can posses/dominate the mercenaries (the PC will be handing him a ready-made army)
- in a combat encounter they mercenary don't add much, using the galifars for potions or a better wand can give the PC the same type of edge without allot of the above cons.
#5
Magicstar1
Jan 29, 2010 7:12:09 You could always just flip this around on them. Let them stop the bad guy with the help of Deneith but then make sure some luitenant in Deneith claims at his a personal victory. With the political power, money and contacts in papers and such the PCs could easily be on the losing end of this publicity war.

If your PCs dig this it can spin out in a long and extended effort to get recognition for their work. Talking with the right people. Maybe dealing with a Deneith cover up force (assasins) etc etc.

On the other hand your PCs will think twice about doing this if they want to be in the spotlights for it. Off course this time around Deneith picks up the hefty reward and so does a double income from the job.

All the other solutions are viable as well. Remember the PCs are a cut above the rest of the people, this is especially true for Ebberon. PCs regulart stare in the maw of 6 headed monsters and deal with infestations from Khyber. Ordinary soldiers of Deneith are just that "ordinary" they are in all senses minions who may flee, crap their pants or refuse to go to places the PCs go without a sweat.
#6
AvonRekaes
Jan 29, 2010 18:28:11 I can understand being a bit squeemish about allowing the PCs to purchase Deneith body guards willy nilly.

I can also understand the philosophy of "never say no", but sometimes, you have to do what's best for the game. Is it better for the game for the PCs to have a climactic battle, or just steamroll in with a bought army?

I would do much the same as you did in your situation. I would have Tharashk offer contracts only to people legally representing nations, with the monarch's seal required for completing the contract (Something likely only high-ranking military personel are allowed to do). PC's should not be able to buy a handful of 15th level War Trolls to solve their promblems.

The same goes for Deneith's mercenaries. However, the bodyguards are where it gets tricky.

I would be alright with the PCs hiring one body guard of comparative level. Not one each, but one for the whole party. Also, if there isn't a dragonmarked or noble-lineage PC in the party, I would require a social encounter to convince Denieth to even make a bodyguard contract with them in the first place. I mean, they are entrusting someone's life to you. You should have to prove you're worthy of such trust with more than just gold.

Once Denieth has been convinced to sell you a bodyguard contract, I would also make it a point to offer them only minions for hire. Of course these Denieth bodyguards don't know they're minions, but it's just an abstraction so the PCs know that people on par with their level of strength and endurance are exceptionally rare, even amongst the trained.

Actually getting a Companion-grade bodyguard would entail being put on a waiting list. A truly exceptionally competent bodyguard, on par with the PCs, is a hot commodity in the world, and it's not as if they're just sitting around waiting to be hired like the common bodyguards waiting for a contract.

So my advice to you is to allow them to hire help but only on a very limited basis. If they really really insist on a company of mercenaries, I'd only give them minions. And if they go for the exceptionally competent bodyguard, I would make him a fully fleshed out NPC companion. Come up with some famous personalities he's guarded in the past to really drive home how big a favor being allowed to purchase his services is.
#7
Madfox11
Feb 05, 2010 10:01:18 Personally there are four ways how I personally deal with such situations:
- Allow the PCs to hire the mercenaries, change the adventure to take the presence into account while still giving the PCs more then enough things to do. PCs are after all superior to any normal mercenary, and so while the mercenaries are great to round up the common servants, they would be unable to deal with the more nasty creatures in the lair (and since we are talking about rituals animating districts of undead, I am assuming there are some real nasty ones in the area).

- The villain is smart enough to realize he is going to draw the attention of the authorities. So he created a diversion that is going to keep them of his back. He bribed the persons in charge to throw red tape on the path of anybody opposing his plans. Or he simply uses another opportunity to start his plot. For example in a recent 3E campaign the nation got invaded by a horde of gnolls and demons which had nothing to do with the real adventure, but it gave me a good excuse to let the PCs do all the work since all other heroes were rather bussy.

- Allow the NPCs to do the work, and I mean ALL the work. They thank the PCs for the warning, but claim all the glory. Adventure done. PCs don't get any treasure or xp. Next adventure. Obviously, the leader does escape, and returns to take his vengeance at a later time.

- As a last resort, when I really do not have the energy and time to deal with the situation, I simply look at the players and simply ask them whether they want to be on this adventure or that they want to play a game of Settlers of Catan. Even in this case though, I will say that I understand there reasoning, but that I cannot adapt the adventure on the fly and they will need to wait till the next session to give me the time to do so.
#8
Ogiwan
Feb 15, 2010 12:43:30 Threadcromancy!

Interesting responses so far. Still, I wonder how a Blademark would differ from a bodyguard. Oh, and I'm hesitant to make Deneith mercs minions; they're supposed to be tough bastards, not choads.

I recall rough stats and pricing for Deniths with each of the marks; would it be feasible to tier them in that respect in 4e, or would another mechanism be better?
#9
Madfox11
Feb 16, 2010 5:23:56
Just because something is a minion, does not make it a whimp. The whole concept of minions is a game mechanical one that helps simulate a common trope in action stories without resulting in really boring fights. Or do you really call a level 22 minion a whimp? ;) In effect, a minion is only a minion when facing a PC or another much more powerful opponent. Take a look at the Lloth touched goblin in MM2. The non-minion version is I think level 6. The minion version is level 12. It is not that the level 12 goblin is weaker than the level 6 version. The level 12 version IS the level 6 version, but used when you want to throw a bunch of weaker monsters against your paragon level PCs without the fight getting boring. Similarly, the 7th level human lackey is NOT a 7th level human soldier. More then likely it is a simple 1ste level bandit.
#10
AvonRekaes
Feb 16, 2010 13:10:03 Agreed. 3e constructed monsters and NPCs through their place in the world. A national hero is Fighter 5/Warrior 10. He's got 10 HD because he's that much better than common soldiers.

4e constructs monsters and NPC solely through the lens of their interaction with PCs. How tough any individual is in an encounter has nothing to do with their objective strengths and everything to do with how they compare to the PCs of their level. That national hero might be a 10th level Solo boss-fight for 7th level PCs. Or he could be a 12th level Elite leading a loyal cadre of standard-monster soldiers against a party of 10th level PCs.

Or you can use him as a minion against 20th level PCs, just to show how far they've come.

Do you remember the Redcloak Battalion in Sharn? These guys were special in 3e because they were all above 10th level, even though they were NPC classes. They were basically the badasses of the faceless redshirt army. I ran a 4e session in which 16th level PCs started causing all kinds of magical destruction in Sharn, so the city dispatched the Redcloaks to try and stop them.

I could have made the Redcloaks a few different ways. I could have decided that they were objectively low-paragon standard monsters, thinking that regular soldiers were minions and these guys were supposed to be a step-above them. I could have made them elites, since they were known to be an "elite" force, and make them a few levels below the PCs, so they could fight 4 to 8 of them for a pretty easy encounter, while still getting the point across that they were "elite".

But what I did do was make them 20th level Minions, and throw dozens of them at the 16th level PCs. Now suddenly they were really serious threats, hitting often and hard, even if the PCs were mowing through them handfuls at a time. It got the point across that they were powerful, but still no match for the PCs. (Which is what I thought was the point in making an "elite" force of NPC-classed warriors in 3e, anyway. Powerful, but just not on par with the players.)

Does that mean that all Redcloaks are 20th level Minions? Do they still have one hit point when they're enjoying some R and R, playing cards and praying to the Host that no one gets a paper cut and loses their single hit-point? No. It just means that on that day, during that fight, against those PCs of that level, they were minions.

It's all subjective in 4e. I'd make the Deneith guys minions if they wanted to hire a squad of them not because Deneith merc squads are weak, but just to get the point across that the PCs are better than them, and aren't really served that much purchasing the help of people less powerful than they are. Also, I'd still keep the option open for portraying Deneith as pretty skilled with the companion-level Deneith merc, making him from the highest order of the Blademarks. THIS guy has seen a lot and done a lot, and he's roughly on par with the PCs.
#11
dread_lord
Feb 19, 2010 0:32:08 My policy has stood since AD&D 2ED. If the players want to hire extra adventures then those guys get a shaire of the loot and exp. I've learned that players may be willing to toss money at a bad guy but are a lot more greedy whith their exp and magic items.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ogiwan Jan 28, 2010 10:02:23	Greetings, all. When I was running my game, my players uncovered the BBEG's plot, and they had to attack into the underground hideaway (which was a foundry, with metal scaffolding and streams of molten metal. It was pretty rockin', if i do say so myself.) They went, first, to the Sharn Watch, as the BBEG's plan was to drop a magic circle at said foundry and turn everybody in Sharn during the Race of the Eight Winds into a Karrnathi undead. I managed to avoid them roping in the entire Sharn watch by playing the sort of, "that is my department, but I don't have much in the way of resources to give you, and they wouldn't believe me if I went up higher". So, then they went to other major powers, specifically Tharashk and Deneith. Tharashk, I managed to make work (with assistance from my players) by letting them pay booku money for a ritual that would take 24 hours (putting it exactly into the time-frame which I wanted it to be in, i.e. last-second saving type.) Deneith, though, was far tougher. They went to hire mercenaries, and I only managed to prevent them from attacking with an army by offering company-sized formations for like a six-month contract. I was very lucky they forgot about the bodyguards Deneith offers. So, now I ask you, fellow DMs: How do you plan on controlling PC access to the kind of combat power Deneith brings to the table?
#2 Gilo Jan 28, 2010 14:48:17	How about a skill challenge where the objective is to reach the hideaway. Along the way the PCs need to detect and overcome hazards, traps (given that they are the only trained adventurers with the skill to do it - the mercenaries are just muscle). With each skill challenge failure - they are going to lose some of the Deneith mercenaries (remember the opening scene of "Raiders of the Lost Arc") deaths, injuries, desertion and betrayal. Leading a large group of merceneris will require using skills such as Diplomacy, Insight and Intimidate along with the skills needed to overcome the traps and hazzards. When the PCs and the remaining mercenries engage in a combat encounter: use the merceniers as a Terrian Power. You don't need to represent each mercenerie on the battlemat (they can have a swarm like icon) and give them some powers, let the players know what those powers are, then they can call on those powers duing combat. the powers will be as strong as the number of merceneris that surrived the skill challange.
#3 dan_vk Jan 28, 2010 20:14:13	So, now I ask you, fellow DMs: How do you plan on controlling PC access to the kind of combat power Deneith brings to the table? As far as I know, House Deneith still adheres to the same policy of neutrality they maintained throughout the Last War. As such, whoever the players deal with may decide to decline the work offer because the situation looks too politically delicate. House Deneith mercenaries also won't fight other members of House Deneith and the seniority of the contract determines which group stands down, so if the BBEG has already hired Deneith mercenaries then the ones the players hire won't fight.
#4 Gilo Jan 28, 2010 21:31:24	The skill challenge I offered above was following the DMing philosophy of "Learn How To Say Yes" to player ideas. of course DMs don't usually like their PCs walking around with mercenary armies. I think that the PCs should evenly realize that using a mercenary force in dealing with your BBEG has allot of cons: - It take time to hire and mobilize the mercenaries, and the BBEG may processed with his evil plans. - you lose the element of surprise - they will get allot of the mercenaries dead (does the PC want that on their conscience) - its costly - the mercenary are not necessarily reliable, trustworthy. - a powerful BBEG can posses/dominate the mercenaries (the PC will be handing him a ready-made army) - in a combat encounter they mercenary don't add much, using the galifars for potions or a better wand can give the PC the same type of edge without allot of the above cons.
#5 Magicstar1 Jan 29, 2010 7:12:09	You could always just flip this around on them. Let them stop the bad guy with the help of Deneith but then make sure some luitenant in Deneith claims at his a personal victory. With the political power, money and contacts in papers and such the PCs could easily be on the losing end of this publicity war. If your PCs dig this it can spin out in a long and extended effort to get recognition for their work. Talking with the right people. Maybe dealing with a Deneith cover up force (assasins) etc etc. On the other hand your PCs will think twice about doing this if they want to be in the spotlights for it. Off course this time around Deneith picks up the hefty reward and so does a double income from the job. All the other solutions are viable as well. Remember the PCs are a cut above the rest of the people, this is especially true for Ebberon. PCs regulart stare in the maw of 6 headed monsters and deal with infestations from Khyber. Ordinary soldiers of Deneith are just that "ordinary" they are in all senses minions who may flee, crap their pants or refuse to go to places the PCs go without a sweat.
#6 AvonRekaes Jan 29, 2010 18:28:11	I can understand being a bit squeemish about allowing the PCs to purchase Deneith body guards willy nilly. I can also understand the philosophy of "never say no", but sometimes, you have to do what's best for the game. Is it better for the game for the PCs to have a climactic battle, or just steamroll in with a bought army? I would do much the same as you did in your situation. I would have Tharashk offer contracts only to people legally representing nations, with the monarch's seal required for completing the contract (Something likely only high-ranking military personel are allowed to do). PC's should not be able to buy a handful of 15th level War Trolls to solve their promblems. The same goes for Deneith's mercenaries. However, the bodyguards are where it gets tricky. I would be alright with the PCs hiring one body guard of comparative level. Not one each, but one for the whole party. Also, if there isn't a dragonmarked or noble-lineage PC in the party, I would require a social encounter to convince Denieth to even make a bodyguard contract with them in the first place. I mean, they are entrusting someone's life to you. You should have to prove you're worthy of such trust with more than just gold. Once Denieth has been convinced to sell you a bodyguard contract, I would also make it a point to offer them only minions for hire. Of course these Denieth bodyguards don't know they're minions, but it's just an abstraction so the PCs know that people on par with their level of strength and endurance are exceptionally rare, even amongst the trained. Actually getting a Companion-grade bodyguard would entail being put on a waiting list. A truly exceptionally competent bodyguard, on par with the PCs, is a hot commodity in the world, and it's not as if they're just sitting around waiting to be hired like the common bodyguards waiting for a contract. So my advice to you is to allow them to hire help but only on a very limited basis. If they really really insist on a company of mercenaries, I'd only give them minions. And if they go for the exceptionally competent bodyguard, I would make him a fully fleshed out NPC companion. Come up with some famous personalities he's guarded in the past to really drive home how big a favor being allowed to purchase his services is.
#7 Madfox11 Feb 05, 2010 10:01:18	Personally there are four ways how I personally deal with such situations: - Allow the PCs to hire the mercenaries, change the adventure to take the presence into account while still giving the PCs more then enough things to do. PCs are after all superior to any normal mercenary, and so while the mercenaries are great to round up the common servants, they would be unable to deal with the more nasty creatures in the lair (and since we are talking about rituals animating districts of undead, I am assuming there are some real nasty ones in the area). - The villain is smart enough to realize he is going to draw the attention of the authorities. So he created a diversion that is going to keep them of his back. He bribed the persons in charge to throw red tape on the path of anybody opposing his plans. Or he simply uses another opportunity to start his plot. For example in a recent 3E campaign the nation got invaded by a horde of gnolls and demons which had nothing to do with the real adventure, but it gave me a good excuse to let the PCs do all the work since all other heroes were rather bussy. - Allow the NPCs to do the work, and I mean ALL the work. They thank the PCs for the warning, but claim all the glory. Adventure done. PCs don't get any treasure or xp. Next adventure. Obviously, the leader does escape, and returns to take his vengeance at a later time. - As a last resort, when I really do not have the energy and time to deal with the situation, I simply look at the players and simply ask them whether they want to be on this adventure or that they want to play a game of Settlers of Catan. Even in this case though, I will say that I understand there reasoning, but that I cannot adapt the adventure on the fly and they will need to wait till the next session to give me the time to do so.
#8 Ogiwan Feb 15, 2010 12:43:30	Threadcromancy! Interesting responses so far. Still, I wonder how a Blademark would differ from a bodyguard. Oh, and I'm hesitant to make Deneith mercs minions; they're supposed to be tough bastards, not choads. I recall rough stats and pricing for Deniths with each of the marks; would it be feasible to tier them in that respect in 4e, or would another mechanism be better?
#9 Madfox11 Feb 16, 2010 5:23:56	Just because something is a minion, does not make it a whimp. The whole concept of minions is a game mechanical one that helps simulate a common trope in action stories without resulting in really boring fights. Or do you really call a level 22 minion a whimp? ;) In effect, a minion is only a minion when facing a PC or another much more powerful opponent. Take a look at the Lloth touched goblin in MM2. The non-minion version is I think level 6. The minion version is level 12. It is not that the level 12 goblin is weaker than the level 6 version. The level 12 version IS the level 6 version, but used when you want to throw a bunch of weaker monsters against your paragon level PCs without the fight getting boring. Similarly, the 7th level human lackey is NOT a 7th level human soldier. More then likely it is a simple 1ste level bandit.
#10 AvonRekaes Feb 16, 2010 13:10:03	Agreed. 3e constructed monsters and NPCs through their place in the world. A national hero is Fighter 5/Warrior 10. He's got 10 HD because he's that much better than common soldiers. 4e constructs monsters and NPC solely through the lens of their interaction with PCs. How tough any individual is in an encounter has nothing to do with their objective strengths and everything to do with how they compare to the PCs of their level. That national hero might be a 10th level Solo boss-fight for 7th level PCs. Or he could be a 12th level Elite leading a loyal cadre of standard-monster soldiers against a party of 10th level PCs. Or you can use him as a minion against 20th level PCs, just to show how far they've come. Do you remember the Redcloak Battalion in Sharn? These guys were special in 3e because they were all above 10th level, even though they were NPC classes. They were basically the badasses of the faceless redshirt army. I ran a 4e session in which 16th level PCs started causing all kinds of magical destruction in Sharn, so the city dispatched the Redcloaks to try and stop them. I could have made the Redcloaks a few different ways. I could have decided that they were objectively low-paragon standard monsters, thinking that regular soldiers were minions and these guys were supposed to be a step-above them. I could have made them elites, since they were known to be an "elite" force, and make them a few levels below the PCs, so they could fight 4 to 8 of them for a pretty easy encounter, while still getting the point across that they were "elite". But what I did do was make them 20th level Minions, and throw dozens of them at the 16th level PCs. Now suddenly they were really serious threats, hitting often and hard, even if the PCs were mowing through them handfuls at a time. It got the point across that they were powerful, but still no match for the PCs. (Which is what I thought was the point in making an "elite" force of NPC-classed warriors in 3e, anyway. Powerful, but just not on par with the players.) Does that mean that all Redcloaks are 20th level Minions? Do they still have one hit point when they're enjoying some R and R, playing cards and praying to the Host that no one gets a paper cut and loses their single hit-point? No. It just means that on that day, during that fight, against those PCs of that level, they were minions. It's all subjective in 4e. I'd make the Deneith guys minions if they wanted to hire a squad of them not because Deneith merc squads are weak, but just to get the point across that the PCs are better than them, and aren't really served that much purchasing the help of people less powerful than they are. Also, I'd still keep the option open for portraying Deneith as pretty skilled with the companion-level Deneith merc, making him from the highest order of the Blademarks. THIS guy has seen a lot and done a lot, and he's roughly on par with the PCs.
#11 dread_lord Feb 19, 2010 0:32:08	My policy has stood since AD&D 2ED. If the players want to hire extra adventures then those guys get a shaire of the loot and exp. I've learned that players may be willing to toss money at a bad guy but are a lot more greedy whith their exp and magic items.