* communicate
* accept orders
* maintain ranks and an order of command
* devise plans and strategies
* have the skills that they had when alive.
However ultimately they need a living person whose authority they recognise to tell them what to do, even if its just the king saying to a zombie general "go to this fort and protect us against any enemies in the area" which is a pretty general command would be useless on a normal zombie. However they don't have memories of being alive, feel emotions, play games or have friends. They're clearly undead, unlike the Aerenal undead.
How do other people have their Karrnath zombies behave?
How do other people have their Karrnath zombies behave?
Karn zombies are very similar to warforged in a lot of respects, with one exception - free will. Warforged can do whatever they want, even if the thought never occurs to them (the reason why many in Thrane are still slaving away diligently and unquestioningly).
Karn zombies, however, don't have that luxury. They can analyze the battlefield and figure out what the best tactics are for developments in combat, but won't break from their orders. Best example I can think of: some Karn zombies are told to eliminate the soldiers pouring out of a stronghold. If a zombie spots a weakness in the stronghold that could be exploited, it will alert someone in charge and point the opening out if possible, but otherwise will continue acting on it's last orders.
Think of sci fi themes of uniformness, like 1985, the borg, or pod people. They're intelligent, capable of making independant battlefield decisions based soley upon their perspective of the engagement, they are fully functioning units, but they have no induviduality, no personality beyond a general bloodthirsty cruel streak.
Unlike warforged that are individuals, who have free will, the Karrnathi undead are not, they are people who have been litterally stripped of their identities.
* Cyran assault (humans, warforged) encounters a Karrnathi strike-force (humans, undead); players are a Thranish band of special ops caught in the middle, trying to get out after retrieving a macguffin from the Karrnathi.
* The Cyrans fight hard, but are outmatched; they're driven to a river and are about to be defeated. Their veteran unit, however, is still fit to fight and launches a last-minute attack on the Karrnathi, trying to soften them up for a secundary force 2 days away.
* The Karrnathi zombie-commander sees the attack coming and could intercept it with his undead regiment. Instead, he holds back, lets the Cyrans drive deep into the living, then executes a pincer-movement and slaughters the Cyrans. Many Karrnathi die. Why? Because now, the glorious Karrnathi dead can be raised as stronger, better warriors for the homeland.
So yeah. Evil, blood-thirsty, no holds barred tactical thinkers for Mother Karrnath in my campaign.
The way I see it, Karranthi Zombies (And skeletons for that matter) aren't more independent then any other average zombie or skeleton, they're simply more capable. Now, I don't mean capable only in the physical way; They may be stronger, but the main difference between them and those simple walking stiffs is that they can understand orders and follow a plan made by their superior.
Other then all of that, the one thing I think makes the K-undead unique in my games is that they talk. I don't know if other GM's think like me on this, but in my games simple mindless undead don't talk. The karranthi ones, however... I usually simply make them yell out patriotic battle cries, but whenever I feel like it I turn them into big talkers who can tell the PCs a lot of information and even taunt them.
G.
Karrnathi Zombies are decidedly evil. Whatever rituals Vol taught the necromancers of Karrnath to rise these undead that need very specific bodies (elite Karrnathi soldiers not just rabble), is evil, molevolent.
Well, thats more of a house rule I have, that mindless creatures aren't good or evil. I can accept the fact that mindless undead can be ruthless and ferocious, but seeing as they are MINDLESS, I can't see them as evil.
However, [Karrnathi Skeletons] has been imbued with a malign intelligence...
However, [Karrnathi Zombies] have been imbued with an evil intelligence.
They have int scores of 11, and wis scores of 10. They are not mindless and they are very much evil.
Anyways, Ashlock nails it on the head: although there are Karrnathi Undead in the army, they're more like elite units than like run of the mill mindless undead. Best used as shock troops, I think.
), the zombie referred to in one of the character's past is a perfect example of a Karrnathi zombie: a former Karrnath patriot, raised by necromancers, and most certainly possessing an evil intelligence.I'm a big fan of Karrnath. :D
Yeah like Ashlock said the Karrnathi Skells, and Zombies statted in the ECS are not mindless undead.
They have int scores of 11, and wis scores of 10. They are not mindless and they are very much evil.
Honestly, I wouldn't think this, especially with Eberron's loose alignment system. The same as how all vampires are not evil, and neither is any other creature listed as evil in the monster manual. And even if they were all evil, I'd say it's more because, as with Oorlof, they don't hold back or show mercy.
Eberron's alignment system seems to take the aproach that unless something is an alignment incarnate (outsiders), or has a supernatural force effecting its alignment (lycanthropes, wights, ghouls), then things have free will.
Karrnathi Undead do not have free will. They are created by foul rituals given to Kauis by Erandis at the cost of his very soul. No one knows why (save Erandis herself perhaps) it takes Elite Karrnathi soldiers to be turned into Karrnathi Undead (peasant soldiers will be raised as normal skels and zombies... they cannot be turned into Karrnathi Skeletons or Zombies). What is know is that the process leaves no trace of the person that was turned into the Karrnathi Undead, also that there is a 'malign', 'evil' intelligence that infests these undead soldiers. They obey their Karrnathi commanders, but they are utterly evil. They have no compassion, no remorse, no mercy, but they are smart (at least as smart as the average human) and are bloodthirsty, and cruel.
That said, if it fits your game, by all means have an exception or two!
(Karrnathi zombies) have the skills that they had when alive.
Actually, in my opinion, they don't. They have a very specific skill set: the skills presented in the ECS description. Likewise, you'll note that by the ECS, they cannot advance - what you see is what you get. This is one of the big differences between Karrnathi undead and warforged; warforged can learn new skills.
Karrnathi undead are created from the corpses of elite Karrnathi soldiers. In my opinion, they do NOT possess the skills or memories of the predecessor; it's not a cheap form of raise dead. Instead, I feel that just as they all have the same skills, they all have the same personality; it's somewhat like the Borg. They may not be actually telepathically linked, but they have a disturbing unity of behavior. The THEORY is that they are empowered by the collective martial spirit of Karrnath (which is why they need to be elite soldiers) - they embody the patriotism and spirit of the Karrnathi people. Perhaps this is true. But perhaps, since the ritual came to Vol, there's another force behind them. When using them, I certainly like to play to that mystery... to hint that there might be a greater consciousness guiding them, that there may be a hidden agenda waiting to be unleashed.
With that said, this doesn't rule out individual Karrnathi undead who are more unique, as Ashlock uses; I've certainly used Karrnathi undead in my game who DO possess abilities beyond the base (in spite of the "no advancement" rule) and who are more free-willed; they simply aren't the norm.
Honestly, I wouldn't think this, especially with Eberron's loose alignment system.
In my opinion, there are three levels of relation to alignment.
- Creatures whose alignment is defined by their nature or by a supernatural force. Outsiders are the best example of this. In my opinion, most outsiders are ideas given form. If a 3.5 angel's alignment changes, it ceases to become an angel, whether it becomes a devil or a radiant idol. Another example would be an afflicted lycanthrope: the curse forces an alignment on the victim. There is no choice associated with this; it is a magic force.
- Creatures who are influenced by an outside force. Most undead fall into this category, as do natural lycanthropes. A vampire is touched by Mabar and its hunger. He's PUSHED towards evil. He can certainly overcome that call, and thus you CAN have a good vampire - but there's a good reason people tend to assume vampires are evil. The key point here is that the influencing force is an inherent part of the creature. A vampire can't escape that connection to Mabar; it doesn't matter if he dedicates his life to the Silver Flame, the hunger is still there. Again, he can overcome it, but there is a innate bias towards a particular alignment.
- Everyone else. Intelligent creatures are capable of making their own decisions. A particular culture may bias those raised within it towards a particular alignment, but this isn't absolute, and if you're raised outside of that culture, you can be anything. You can find evil goblins in Eberron, and you can find good goblins; there's nothing innate to a goblin that pushes it towards evil.
Personally, as described, I see Karrnathi undead as falling into that first category. They are corpses animated by a specific ritual, by default bearing none of the memories of their past life. They are imprinted with a template - and that template is evil. If you've got one of those exceptional does-remember-his-life undead, then you at least move to that middle category.
But as Mystrich says, "evil" in this case means things like showing no mercy, being willing to massacre children, etc. They won't kill children for FUN, because they have no interest in fun. But they have no concept of altruism or empathy; they are created to kill.
Also, they are definitely elite troops; Karrnath also makes extensive use of normal undead. Remember that Karrnathi undead can only be made from the corpses OF elite troops slain in battle, and the ritual is more involved and expensive. So you can't kill a peasant and get a Karrnathi zombie; you need to lose a skilled soldier in the first place.
All of this being just my opinion, of course (well, except for the ECS stating no advancement and requiring the corpse of an elite soldier - but hey, you can always change that).
I concur. Taken as a whole, you should consider the undead fodder of Karrnath's armies as mindless and not evil at all. Karrnathi skeletons and zombies are decidedly evil, and generally should be.
Agreed. A standard skeleton is mindless. A Karrnathi skeleton is "imbued with a malign intelligence". I'll call specific attention to the use of "imbued". Its intelligence hasn't been "restored"; it's not the being it was before. Instead, the corpse has been *imbued* with a new... and malign... intelligence.
Again, for story purposes, I'm all for having exceptions to this rule, whether it's undead who appear to have the memories of the deceased, or actually do. But I see those as the exceptions, not the norm.
Despite the fact that they are intelligent, I have never seen them as independent, they a part of the Karranthi Army with no will of their own. The only kind of thought or emotion they are capable of is patriotism-Love for their country and hate for their enemies. While in this state of mind I Just can't classify them as evil. Stupid, maybe, but not evil. This is also the way I justify their cruelty, which I see as coming from their complete focus and devotion to their country.
Now, don't get me wrong, my Karranthi unndead aren't exactly pussycats, their still ferocious cold blooded killer but since they don't have a single thought in their heads beside fighting for Karranth, they're not evil, just bloodthirsty.
G.
They have no compassion, no remorse, no mercy, but they are smart (at least as smart as the average human) and are bloodthirsty, and cruel.
I think this is the key to "evil". As has been stated, they are intelligent. They are driven by their utter devotion to the Karrnathi cause (well, at least until Erandis flips the switch), but they ARE intelligent. And as such, it's not just a question of killing without mercy, but having the capacity to take pleasure in that slaughter - to enjoy causing fear and pain. In my opinion, Karrns are fairly comfortable around normal mindless skeletons and zombies, because they are just tools. With the Karrnathi undead, as I suggested above, I like the idea that they DO make normal people a little nervous - because you can sense that cruelty, that love of bloodshed. It puts me a little in mind of Pet Semetary - they've come back wrong. Yes, they will fight for your nation until their bones are ground to dust, and it's a good thing they're on your side - but that's NOT your uncle. It's a dark spirit in his body, and it's kind of creepy.
See that's where we differ, I don't believe they really are loyal to Karrnath at all, when the Lich Queen calls they wont be listening to Kauis.
And this is certainly a point left to the DM. Personally, I agree. But they at least APPEAR to be driven by the loyalty to Karrnath. Again, I like to play up their inscrutibility. In dealing with a skeleton, you can hardly read his expression. He claims to be loyal to you, but how far can you trust him?
Even though I don't necessarily agree with what people said, the sheer awesomeness of all Karranthi skeletons and zombies turning against Kaius the moment vol decides she's had enough is too big to resist.
I have officially changed my mind.
G.
Or a zombie platoon marching through town and one casts a creepy smile toward his widow. She might even try to call out to him or start following the group around hoping that somehow her husband is still in there somehow. She brings the family cat thinking he might remember it but when she runs into the barrics to hand it to him he snaps it's neck just before the living guards drags her away. Over the young man's shoulder she sees her husband grin at her again.
The Undead are everywhere or so it seems in Khorvaire?
Not really. In Khorvaire they're only in the Talenta Plains (with permission from the local tribes) and in Karrnath. Excluding the uncontrolled and natural undead that arise from time to time or undead create by lesser wizards. In Eberron itself there's undead in Karrnath and Aerenal and that's it.
Now this is more a what if here, I'm going with assumption that Erandis Vol is truly the true queen of the dead here. I could see that the nations would have a major problem if the queen just said forget this and ordered the undead to attack, just imagine the carnage.
Definitely. Although its up to everyone if Vol has that power or not in their own campaign given that canon (AFAIK) doesn't say either way.
I like the idea that there is indeed something left of the people they were. It makes them tragic as well as spooky. I envision a solder in the field meeting up with his old captain who has been "reborn". The zombie wont talk to him or even seem to recognize him but once in camp he did see the zombie flipping a coin just like his old officer did.
I think you can still do this without saying that it's the same person. Like Keith's Pet Cemetery comparison. Almost like the new, malign intelligence found a home in the undead body and dug up some of the original person's memories, just enough to give that semblance of the same person. But it's not.
You can almost interpret this like the 3rd Edition spell speak with dead:
You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it.....The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any)....This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive.
The emphasis is mine. The idea being that the body and a portion of its memories might still be intact. The animating power is a temporal sentient thing itself, occupying the body and perhaps drawing on some of those memories. But that's all.
There was a discussion that touched on this same topic one on the Worlds of DnD threads. One person said they thought that a Karrn seeing one of their loved ones as a zombie wouldn't be all that fazed. I thought differently. Like Keith said, Karrns may be fairly inured to being around the mindless undead, but I think it's a different matter when you're dealing with the Karrnathi skeletons and zombies precisely because of their behavior. To hear that your friend or sibling was turned into a Karrnathi zombie is one thing (probably an ambivalent thing, since to be raised in that way suggests your prowess and loyalty in life as a soldier of Karrnath). To see it with your own eyes would be another. This would, of course, be unlikely, since the dead of Karrnath are property of the state and the undead would be quartered like regular troops, not hanging out in their former homes.
Anyway, the example I gave:
I think there's a very big difference between (a) hearing that your favorite uncle John—who used to tell funny stories to the neighborhood children when was a fan of bathroom humor—was killed in action in the war and was then later animated....and (b) seeing with your own eyes what has become of your favorite uncle John and seeing him murder children in the name of Karrnath.
As a Karrnathi zombie, uncle John would be evil, intelligent, with a proclivity for the slaughter of Karrnath's enemies. A mindless zombie uncle John would just stand around, enjoying nothing, doing what he's told.
And really when you get down to it, that's one of the key horrors of zombies in the first place. "That's not her anymore!", we've heard it repeated time and time again in zombie movies.
Well these are still zombies, and they're still not who they were, they're just now smart enough to plan and and plot and are twice as tough.
There was an example in one of the novels (which I know are not cannon but make a handy example), The Darkwood Mask
Yup! That's the example I was referring to above in my second post, since that was my book. ;) And that's why I'm biased on this particular topic.
Right, well clearly I liked your book and interpretation. I'll shuddap now.
Oh, and...thanks!
But the idea that something of the person is still there and being tormented by what it's become, even if it can't fully understand what that is, is more horrible to me.
Of course, the reason the Karrns use undead soldiers in the first place is precisely because they DO believe that the soul has been lost - and therefore, there's no reason not to make good use of the corpse. To the follower of the Blood of Vol, there's nothing evil or reprehensible about necromancy, because death IS the end; the spark of your divinity is within your blood, and once that stops flowing, all that's left is meat and bone. Certainly, superstitious foreigners - or even Karrns of different faiths - can see this as a desecration of the corpse; but to the follower of the Blood of Vol, DEATH is the great desecration. Mortality itself is the crime. And if your body can serve after death, at least you help your community and spit on the gods responsible for your mortality.
Now, it's up to you to decide whether the soul lingers in torment, and regardless of whether it does, whether people BELIEVE it does (and there's certainly been some great images presented in this thread). But from a cultural perspective, the reason that the Karrns are so comfortable using necromancy is because they don't believe this. This is something they do to their greatest soldiers; it's not a punishment, but rather a way these heroes can continue to serve even after they have been cruelly taken from their people.
To Silver Flame and Host followers this connection to an animated body is the worst sort of torment and sin.
To followers of the Dark Six the torment is what the weak deserve.
To followers of the Blood, and Karnathians through cultural adaptation of the Blood's teachings for several years, don't see it as a curse at all. These people are being held back from final, everlasting darkness to continue to serve their country and people.
The more psudo-scientific wizards only believe that there is an faint echo of the soul. Sort of how the right spell can tell you something about a person by examining a possession they once carried. Only stronger because that soul "owned" the body longer than it ever did an item.
Artificers probably don't even believe that there's that much of a connection. The soul is gone and something else has filled the body and any similarities in behavior are coincidence.
But in "my" Eberron the truth is that a soul will never rest as long as the body is undead. Not that that will have much bering on the world or the game. And it's not even necessarily wrong or sinful depending on the point of view of the characters. If one of my players wants to be a BoV necromancer he can believe that in some way he is saving souls from a horrible fate by raising the dead to serve him.
Now, the way I imagine the Blood of Vol worshipers view it is that as long as the body is animated and the soul is connected to it then the soul will never drift off into oblivion.
The reason I dislike this is because of the loss of blood. In my view of the BoV faith, blood is the source of the divine spark, and in a skeleton, it's gone. This is why I consider even the sentient undead to be seen as martyrs in the faith. They may not die, but they'll also never acheive the true divinity the seekers hope to find. A vampire subsists on the blood of others, but he has lost his own. And the skeleton is nothing at all. There's no salvation. It's not a favor to the skeleton. It's a form of protest - if you want to stop us, you'll have to shatter our very bones - but there is a certain sorrow as the soul has been lost. In the case of a Karrnathi So basically, I see the Blood of Vol as a very grim faith. Dolurrh isn't a gateway; it's a holding cell while your memories are wiped away, and at that point you are lost forever. You can survive as a sentient undead, but in doing so you've lost your chance at true divinity. The best thing you can do is to stand by the other members of your community, to support one another in life, and to help the champions of the church - in the hope that some day they can break the curse of mortality itself and help everyone reach the true potential held within their blood.
But, obviously, to each their own. ;) Again, I like the images you created earlier in the thread, so I'm not suggesting you change your game or anything like that.
(I feel kind of weird arguing this with the very man who invented the Blood of Vol, but I feel like I'm on to something here.)
I(In my game I've decided she's a vampire, explaining why she's so concerned with getting fresh blood and how she turned Kaius.)
That's an interesting path to pursue.
Let's assume her transformation to lichdom was interrupted and hence flawed, due to the attack that ultimately made the house of Vol extinct.
This flawed lichdom made her - effectively - a lich, but with a need for blood, unlike a real lich.
Instead of seeing herself as flawed, she declared herself as the desired result (despite her own knowledge of her shortcomings - like her inert dragonmark), so she starts to twist the original tenets into the Blood of Vol, not only out of her own stance, but also to glorify herself as martyr and as a way to get blood for herself - but also with a pang of self-depreciation, as she implies her loss of her divinity - as with her dragonmark.
That's something interesting.
Plus Jaela catfight with vampire Volk kid - I'm kidding!
Sorry for the derailment, but I had to fix my thoughts!
Cheers, LT.
A handful of priests in Atur know about Erandis d'Vol, Kaius knows... practically no one else in Karrnath knows.
Keith is talking about the belief system of the people of Karrnath whom know nothing about a Lich Queen that pulls the strings.
That's an interesting path to pursue.
Let's assume her transformation to lichdom was interrupted and hence flawed, due to the attack that ultimately made the house of Vol extinct.
This flawed lichdom made her - effectively - a lich, but with a need for blood, unlike a real lich.
Instead of seeing herself as flawed, she declared herself as the desired result (despite her own knowledge of her shortcomings - like her inert dragonmark), so she starts to twist the original tenets into the Blood of Vol, not only out of her own stance, but also to glorify herself as martyr and as a way to get blood for herself - but also with a pang of self-depreciation, as she implies her loss of her divinity - as with her dragonmark.
That's something interesting.
Plus Jaela catfight with vampire Volk kid - I'm kidding!
Sorry for the derailment, but I had to fix my thoughts!
Cheers, LT.
Well, the lich thing also gets in the way of my own personal idea of what a lich is. Mainly that it is the final goal of years of research and a very personal quest for everlasting existence, not something that anyone could whip up in a hurry to save the life of a little girl. But if as the dragons and elves were razing the Vol lands and working their way up to the very gates of the castle I could see Vols mom pleading with Uncle Alucard to share his "gift" with the child so that they may escape as mist under the cover of night.
In my own Eberron the title "Lich Queen" is given to her by people outside the faith who view her as a boogyman figure. The few who have heard of her know her as a "spell-casting-undead-queen" and to most laymen magic using + undeath = lich, just like in all the stories they've heard as children.
But Vol herself is, in the ECS, a lich.
Absolutely… and as such, both the greatest champion of the faith and a tragic figure. Bear in mind that the BoV is NOT the worship of Erandis; rather it is practices based on the philosophies of her family. Looking to Faiths of Eberron…
Seekers maintain that blood itself is the “soul” of life… The high position of the undead within the church might surprise those outside the faith. Vampires, liches, and mummies no longer have blood or life, and thus can never fully bond to the Divinity Within. The seekers believe that intelligent undead have made this terrible sacrifice to overcome mortality and serve the sect. Thus, they are revered and respected, but they are also pitied, for they can never touch perfection. The undead are the champions of the church, guiding the people of Vol to their true destiny, but few who follow the faith would make that terrible choice.
So Erandis Vol is seen (by those who know she exists) as the greatest champion of the faith – but not its ideal. The fact that undeath prevents her from using her dragonmark echoes this. She could have been something far greater, had she lived and reached her full potential; as a lich, she is a shadow of that.
Now, I highlighted “intelligent undead” because IMO, mindless undead are seen as empty vessels; nothing of the former spirit remains. You could certainly make the same argument as speak with dead – that trace memories are still attached to the body – but of course speak with dead makes clear that this isn’t the soul of the deceased.
Karrnathi undead are an interesting bridge. They ARE intelligent, but as written, it’s not a unique intelligence. Again, by the ECS, every Karrnathi zombie has Climb -2, Jump -2, Listen +6, Search +4, Spot +6. As listed, they cannot advance; not by adding hit dice, nor by gaining class levels. They ARE intelligent, but it’s an inhuman intellect – crystalline, frozen with the knowledge implanted at creation. As I said, that’s why I play them as if there is a single malevolent spirit guiding them all – not that they are telepathically linked, but they are all echoes of one another.
With THAT said, again, I’m all for their being exceptional Karrnathi undead that break any or all of these rules, and I’ve used these myself. It’s great to have the characters meet the Karrnathi skeleton version of their archenemy from the Last War, now deadlier and cleverer than ever. But the reason that the Karrns don’t slaughter their soldiers and bring them all back as undead is that despite their strengths and immunities, the undead lack the individuality and versatility of mortals, the ability to learn new skills and to reach unlimited potential… and, of course, because to a member of the Blood of Vol, any death is a victory for the vile gods.
I feel kind of weird arguing this with the very man who invented the Blood of Vol…
I don’t see it as an argument. You’re explaining how you use the faith in your game. It’s a discussion – and this is a discussion thread! ;)
Keith is talking about the belief system of the people of Karrnath whom know nothing about a Lich Queen that pulls the strings.
Indeed. And as I said, if they find out about her, they'd likely assume that she's a great champion of the faith - but again, someone who has made a terrible sacrifice and who will never be able to truly harness the Divinity Within.
(And of course, in fact, she's NOT such a great champion of the faith, in that she's more interested in pursuing her personal agendas than freeing the world from death. But few Seekers would expect this.)
The way I've played, is again given the evil Aura that the true faith is a vile and evil thing. Regardless of Erandis' goals and whether they sync up with the faith that was around before her birth her methods certainly reflect the attitudes of that older religion, they just have one hell of a PR department to sell it to the mainstream.
The way I've played, is again given the evil Aura that the true faith is a vile and evil thing.
While the way I play it is that the evil aura is a result of the fact that clerics of the faith channel negative energy - nothing more, nothing less. It means that the power that the cleric draws from his divine source harms the living instead of healing (IE, spontaneous inflict) and that he commands negatively-charged undead instead of destroying them. It's not a matter of being attached to a force of deep and primal EVIL - it's beign a vessel of negative energy, which is by its nature inimical to life. When Aerenal was founded, the first priests of the Transition sought to harness positive energy; the first members of the line of Vol sought to harness negative energy. In my opinion, neither act was innately good or evil; they're simply two different source of power, one that harms living creatures and one that bolsters them. But the goal of the line of Vol was essentially identical to that of the proto-Undying Court: find a way to preserve the greatest heroes of the elves, and to ensure that they never again suffered the tragic losses of Xen'drik.
But that's me. I've always played detect alignment spells as less then 100% accurate. It tells you the cleric is a powerful vessel for negative energy; what that says about his morality is something else.
With THAT said, I'm also of the opinion that the work of the line of Vol is ultimately based on the lore of the Qabalrin - and that the Qabalrin necromancers WERE by and large cruel and selfish, evil in the classic sense of the word. Threads of that may thus be hidden within the faith - and this may be the path Erandis has uncovered and chosen to follow in her own quest for power.
I'll also note that in my opinion, the negative path is inherently more self-centered. IMO, the Undying Court depends on spiritual energy freely given by their descendents and worshippers to survive (in addition to the ambient energies of Irian manifest zones); they need life energy just as a vampire does, but they rely on their worshippers to give it to them. If you wanted to destroy the UC, you could do it by killing all the living elves - or even just by converting them to another faith. A vampire, on the other hand, has the power to TAKE the life energy it needs, tearing it from an unwilling victim. The reason the Deathguard are so opposed to all negative undead is that they believe that ALL negative undead draw away the life force of others - that even if it's not as obvious or dramatic as the energy drain of a vampire, a mindless skeleton is nontheless slowly sucking away at the ambient lifeforce of the world itself. So, not necessarily EVIL. But a power source that is, essentially, HUNGRY - a force that is antithetical to living things and may harm the world through its presence.
(As a side note, the concept that the Undying rely on the faith of their followers to sustain them is pointed to on page 61 of City of Stormreach; the local Aereni hold daily services to strengthen their deathless champion.)
I feel kind of weird arguing this with the very man who invented the Blood of Vol...
Actually, with this in mind, I'm going to try to step out of the thread at this point. I tend to jump on religion threads and once I get started it's hard for me to shut up. However, I don't mean to be overbearing, and frankly I need to focus on work for a few days! ;) There's a lot of good ideas here... talk amongst yourselves!
Nived: I don't think the original religion was "evil" in the usual sense. But defiantly unholy. They believe that the gods, not just the Host but the Six too, have no business telling a mortal where they have to go after they die and are bent on overthrowing them. I think that they would view "good" and "evil" as rules made up by gods that have no business telling mortals how to live. On the other hand, by casting aside any standard moral compass they tend toward evil.
Every time someone dies and is lost to the void the gods win, in the view of the Seekers. Undeath is an imperfect way to keep them "in the world" to keep up the fight. The absolute perfect goal of the Blood is to live, really be alive, forever. But as long as the gods are alive, or whatever they are, undeath is just about the only way to fight back. And if animated dead are not tied to the soul that has past on then it's an empty statement by the seekers.
The absolute truth, if truly examend from a cosmic point of view, may well be that this is all bunk and undead don't have a chance of fighting the gods and that all they're accomplishing is to keep people from being reborn. But a Seeker doesn't believe that. To them having their soul fade into nothingness is the worst sort of nightmare.
With this philosophy in mind I can see why the Emerald Claw is never lacking for undead troops, Seekers everywhere are willing to sign up for existence as monsters if it will keep their soul in contact with the world a little longer, and just maybe further the cause of the faith a little to better the odds of maybe having a chance of existing long enough for the Promised Day when they can return and live perfect lives.
On another note; I thing that the Seekers absolutely believe that Erandis is the head of the faith but not the focus, she's not their goddess. To the Seeker that tends his fields every day she is a legend or maybe even a messiah like figure. But if pressed he would probably admit that she's more of a story about keeping up the struggle than an actual real being, at least not anymore.
Now, to most of the worshipers of other faiths, they probably have many of the misunderstandings that many new player of Eberron have. They probably think that the Seekers do warship all undead and Erandis i their goddess. They have some notion that the Blood of Vol hates the gods and they have some crazy notion that they can overthrow them.
I also have this notion that someone like Erandis is too important to keep secret. Most everyone has at least heard of her and most everyone has heard where she is. Of course where she is depends on who you ask. I'm not too sure about this last bit though.
ON EBERRON ALIGNMENT:
I don't think the alignment system is "loose" so much as the actions and behaviors of those alignments may not always reflect as in traditional D&D. I have always played this way, so Eberron felt "right" to me.
Lawful Evil is probably one of the most interesting alignments to me, because the right LE character is just as likely to be viewed as a hero from one point of view, and a monster from another. My own campaign example was a LE general. He was a generally honorable individual, kept his word, loved his family (parents and brother, he wasn't married himself), had a bastard he treated well enough, served his king unfailingly. He himself was not a warmonger, because unnecessary loss of life didn't really do anything for him.
But...
Whenever his nation went to war, he was ruthless. Not necessarily cruel in an intentional way, but when weighing the lives of a single of his men against a village of the enemy, there was no comparison. He left no sufficient force behind them to snipe at his back, and took no prisoners as he marched into a nation. He would burn villages and farmland to the ground, kill everyone dumb enough not to run and most of those who were running, and left barely a handful of people alive as he went. He did this without thought and without mercy, because if they were at war, it was to protect or serve his kingdom, and the death of enemies was the most efficient way to march towards the enemy capital without leaving an army to gather at your back. To his kingdom, he was an unadulterated hero, loyal beyond a fault, but to his enemies, he was a hideous monster whose very name brought both fear and curses.
The point is, if you encountered him at home, during peace time, you might never consider him Lawful Evil. He might never commit an "evil" act anywhere near you, and might even do many good things, like offer coins or food to the needy, protect someone in dangers, etc. But he would cut your throat in a minute if he felt it was necessary to protect the people, the kingdom, or the king.
In a lot of ways, I view the Karrnath undead in the same light. While they might not have the same penchant for endearing traits or good works, they are likely cordial to citizens of Karrnath, and seen as heroic and self-sacrificing by it's people. However, they are ruthless to the enemy and consider nothing sacrosant in fulfilling their duty. They do not stop to weigh the life of a child vs a wicked Karrnathi noble, for instance. To them, Karrnath uber alles, that is their duty and role.
The THEORY is that they are empowered by the collective martial spirit of Karrnath (which is why they need to be elite soldiers) - they embody the patriotism and spirit of the Karrnathi people. Perhaps this is true. But perhaps, since the ritual came to Vol, there's another force behind them. When using them, I certainly like to play to that mystery... to hint that there might be a greater consciousness guiding them, that there may be a hidden agenda waiting to be unleashed.
Definitely. It reminds me of the clone troopers in the Star Wars prequel trilogy - because they're not just clones, but conditioned in the same fashion, it means they're eerily similar even though they're all technically individuals, and the secrets behind their creation include the programming that causes them to obey Order 66 without question, even though it means turning on the Jedi who have led them and fought with them for years.