Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 AvonRekaes Dec 24, 2009 8:48:10	So. 4e updated cosmology isn't as horrible as I originally thought. The Great Orrery still works as a model for the strong and weak phases the effects of the various planes and regions thereof have on Eberron. I like that Xoriat is now the full-fledged Far Realm and is considered "not a plane" for the 13-1 numerology. However, removing Xoriat means they had to replace it with something. And just so you'd be able to use all those generic core-world Codex of Betrayal devils and archdevils, they "gave" Eberron Baator. But Eberron already has its own lore of fallen angels, the Radiant Idols. Radiant Idols were angels that were cast down to Eberron, not Baator, for their hubris and pride. And they weren't even changed into hideous devils. Also, Eberron already had a place for devils specifically, as one faction of the eternal war on Shavarath. So... what the hell do we do with Baator? How do we... Eberron it up? Make it pulpy and unique? It currently lacks any niche in the cosmology. As the home of devils and seat of power for an angel-cast-down-because-he-wanted-to-be-a-god, it is utterly superfluous. Extra. Redundant. Not-needed. Eberron already had two seperate places for those things. One idea I had is that Asmodeus claims he was once the right-hand-being for the Sovereigns and Six. Baator used to be the shinning gate that granted access to the realm beyond the known planes to the home of the gods (or so he claims). Perhaps he wasn't an angel, but something else entirely, some class of beings specifically created to serve the gods. (Because in Eberron, from what I can tell, Angels don't necessarily have a connection to religion.) But then Asmodeus tried to use his position as gatekeeper to gain leverage over the entire pantheon, and put himself at the head of it? (Maybe Asmodeus is the forgotten goblinoid god, stricken from history because of the god's punishment) So the Sovereigns and Six destroyed the gate and bound Asmodeus and his minions to it, warping their forms into their current fiendish bodies. In this story, Baatorian devils would be a seperate class of being entirely from Shavarathi devils. I probably wouldn't even call them "devils". That's the best I could come up with. Does anyone have any other ideas to Eberronize Baator?
#2 Aegeri Dec 24, 2009 9:05:54	I don't see how to use Baator in Eberron either as even with various lore and similar it just doesn't seem to fit. I liked the change to Xoriat as it made sense Xoriat should be an awful thing outside of the known multiverse and not a strict plane, but Baator just doesn't seem to fit anywhere in my mind. Minding I don't have to use it, but it does seem thrown in there to be honest.
#3 Gilo Dec 24, 2009 10:14:45	Maybe something to do with the schism of the Dark Six - what if the Six left the host and tried to conjure their own plane of existence to fit their own view of the universe. Maybe the original angels of the Dark Six (now called 'devils') escaped the wrath of the sovereign host and created Baator as a safeheaven for themselves an autopia based of the Dark Six view of things. or maybe the creation of Baator was what created the schism in the first place.
#4 ellorin Dec 24, 2009 13:09:36	Remember this thread? These were my ideas: On Asmodeus So we got the big A and the Nine Hells as a bonus. Are we to assume that the current situation with Baator was the same when the Sea of Siberys was created? I'm inclined to disagree(not even in Core did this occur). So, what happened? Here are some hypotheses:   1. This one retains most of the original flavour. Asmodeus and co. were once angels following the deity of their choice as the other members of their kind. Asmodeus, originally his god's (self-proclaimed) right hand fancies himself a deity, build up his power and his armies and slaughters all opposition. He becomes the absolute ruler of the plane, the faithful angels fleeing or slaughtered. Serving a deity in the core of an angel's being-what do you have when a betrayal of that principle takes place? Asmodeus and his followers lose their angelic nature and become darker, hateful creatures...almost indistinguishable from the fiends of Khyber.  As for "killing" the deity...that's not going to happen. It might have been a symbolic death, shattering the deity's worship once and for all. And who would that deity be? I was thinking of the sixteenth, the Unnamed, the fallen deity of the goblin pantheon, the one whose face, name and tenets were cast down and deleted from all records. The followers of Asmodeus, acting themselves or (mainly) through unsuspecting pawns were thorough in their work...or so they think. 2. Asmodeus was once of Khyber, a prakhutu. He hungered for his master's power...but how could that be? It was when his rajah's followers were at the verge of unleashing him from his bonds that he found his chance. Asmodeus and his followers struck down the Overlord at its weakest while drawing him at an unsuspecting plane,Baator. The Overlord was caught at its weakest-still it was a titanic battle and very few of Asodeus' followers survived.   Normally this would have no real point-the Overlord would simply reappear on the next day in full power. Asmodeus' eldritch machines messed with the Rajah's rebirth though. Milennia of research and carefully prepared to the last detail foul magic, combined with equally careful studying of the Valley of the fallen Rajah and the fact that they were not in the Sea of Siberys and the events that led to its creation gave Asmodeus the ability to impose his Rajah the same fate. Instead of regenerating his essence, the Rajah corrupted his place of death, becoming a second Valley of the fallen Rajah. Unchecked, it turned the whole of Baator to a nightmarish plane, with Asmodeus its absolute ruler. Some claim that Asmodeus was aided by members of the Light of Siberys in a true unholy alliance. The few members of the Light that know are filled with shame
#5 Alex_ Dec 24, 2009 22:07:03	Shavrath isn't the only place in the multiverse where devils can regularly be found.  Those with an affinity with fire can be found in Fernia, while Lemures live on Dolurrh, and Eberron itself plays hosts to a number of fiends (not just Rakshasas).    That leaves it as perfectly plausible that a number of devils could also be found on Baator.   To use the proginetor dragon myth, Baatar can be a fang of Khyber that broke off in Siberys's body when he was slain in their battle.   Why ignore or create a dichotomy with Baator, devils, and radiant idols?  If they are all the result of angels and other celestial beings who have rebelled against the gods then play it up.  A radiant idol is what happens when an angel is captured by its own peers- before it can defect to the realm of Asmodeous and be transformed into a devil.       If most rebellious angels had their way, they'd rather be devils.  Radiant idols are stripped of their wings and much of their power.  While devils aren't as pretty, they don't suffer a loss of power either. Radiant idols on Eberron often ally with servents of Baator, believing that they can regain some of their power.  Or maybe the fact that many radiant idols believe themselves to be gods, that they oppose Baator and seek his title for their own.
#6 Sarlax Dec 24, 2009 23:57:32	If most rebellious angels had their way, they'd rather be devils.  Radiant idols are stripped of their wings and much of their power.  While devils aren't as pretty, they don't suffer a loss of power either. But in Baator, they can't be worshipped. If hubris is what get angels cast out, I think many angels would rather lose power and become idols than retain power and become devils trapped far from worshippers. That said, I think the idols are simply those angels who want worship, but angels can get in trouble for other reasons... I think of Baator as the domain of Asmodeus (all else that follows is my speculation), an angel who sees it as his duty to turn the mortals of Eberron to the full worship of the entire pantheon of gods, which includes both the Sovereigns and Dark Six. Most angels serve specific gods, while mortals do the same or give preference to a small group. Asmodeus sees this as the ultimate heresy, for there can be no inferiority within divinity. The Mockery cannot be a lesser to Dol Dorn, for that which is "lesser" cannot be divine. Any being who ranks the gods is a heretic twice: first for failing to recognize the equal supremacy of the divine, and second for thinking they can ascribe importance to the gods themselves. Because Asmodeus serves all gods and wishes to turn all worship to them, he seeks to conquer and unite the world. When all serve a single hierarchy, a single state, a single religion that he commands, he can command them to worship the gods as they should. Before mortals, though, he seeks to corral the "rogue" angels who fail to serve the entirety of the pantheon. These he kidnaps and tortures endlessly in Baator until they "reform" and become servants of the True Pantheon. This is why Asmodeus and the devils are thought of as agents of corruption and temptation. They have practiced skills of manipulation and control for eons. They seek to usurp governments and learn to manipulate the worship of mortals. None of this is self-serving, however. They do it to bring equal glory to all the gods.
#7 PJammaGod Dec 28, 2009 1:59:34	I have to say that's quite a cool and original backstory Sarlax. It's also possibly the only reason why I would even consider including Baator as part of the Eberronian cosmology. Thanks for giving us a viable alternative.
#8 AvonRekaes Dec 29, 2009 11:04:34	Hrm. I still don't see Baator as an acceptable place for fallen angels. Here's the thing. In Eberron, Devils are not fallen angels. They're a seperate class of immortal. They have always been devils in Mabar, Dollurh, Shavarath, etc. Why should Baatorian devils be different? Why would Baatorian devils once have been another class of immortal? Also, the existance of Radiant Idols stills throws the wrench into the fallen angel theme. Sure, you can say that baatorian devils are a different type of fallen than Radiant Idols, but still the question is why. Why would fallen angels change into another type of currently existing immortal? Can it go the other way? Can a devil redeem itself and turn into an Angel? If so, is it something only Baatorian devils can do, and not those on Shavarath, Mabar, Dollurh, etc.? I think to save Baator, we have to completely rethink it. We can't look at it as a place for fallen angels, because it raises the question of all the non-former-angellic devils on other planes, and why they aren't radiant idols. Or at the very least, we'd have to answer questions like "why did these angels turn into pre-existing creatures that weren't once angels"? I say we take Baator and we add to it. Make it not solely a plane for devils. Turn it into the plane of Betrayal, Hubris, and Tyranny. The closest the planes have to a plane of dedicated evil. Make it a prison plane where all of the multiverses most dangerous, evil beings are incarcerated. Devils, demons, evil dragons, soulless killing machines of Davanni, psychotically sociopathic slaad, cruel fey serial killers, etc. etc. etc. Or maybe it's a sister plane to Shavarath, and where they send their prisoners of war (and so it has representatives of all three armies). In either case the archdevils would no longer be devils, but the native wardens of the plane. Call them the Overseers, with Asmodeus as the Archtyrant. I dunno, something. But Baator's core story really needs to either be done away with enirely or severely reworked. Because it just plain doesn't fit in Eberron. Except possibly the killing, metaphorically or otherwise, of the unknown god. But even then, that would be a ridiculously recent event, cosmologically speaking. More recent than Dal Quor being knocked off its orbit. That's like, an eyeblink to any immortal. It would have a bigger impact on the planes culturally speaking than Dal Quor would. Maybe when the Dhakanni Empire started deteriorating and gobinoids started turning to the gods, they might've uncovered tablets from the Age of Demons describing this deceased god, without finding evidence of his destruction. So maybe the gobinoids were worshipping the dead god far far after Asmodeus already killed him (metaphorically or not). Perhaps Sovereign worship on Sarlona knew only enough of this dead god to strike him from existance, again, when they came across his depiction in goblinoid civilization when they migrated to Khorvaire.
#9 Sarlax Dec 29, 2009 15:27:15	Here's the thing. In Eberron, Devils are not fallen angels. They're a seperate class of immortal. They have always been devils in Mabar, Dollurh, Shavarath, etc. Why should Baatorian devils be different? And how do we know that? Aside from a line or two like, "The angels, baatezu, and tanar'ri have always fought on Shavarath..." how do we know that these entities truly have been eternally in their current forms? We know for a fact that massive cosmological shifts occur in the Eberron "multiverse." It's happened with Xoriat (getting knocked away faster than would occur naturally) and Dal Quor. In the latter case, we've gotten hints that the previous manifestations of the quori were or could have been entirely unlike those that now exist. It could have happened with other planes, too - we only know about Xoriat and Dal Quor because their changes were so significant for Eberron itself. Why would Baatorian devils once have been another class of immortal? Why wouldn't they? There's no reason to prefer one condition (always in this form) to another (existed once in another form). The quori probably went through a shift - hell, they might even have been like Modrons before Dal Quor changed. Also, the existance of Radiant Idols stills throws the wrench into the fallen angel theme. Sure, you can say that baatorian devils are a different type of fallen than Radiant Idols, but still the question is why. Why would fallen angels change into another type of currently existing immortal? Why would they do it ever? That is, if one objects to angels turning into baatezu, shouldn't one also object to them turning into radiant idols? RIs are a different class of immortal from angels; they even become native outsiders (in 3.5). They are changed for a reason, which, at least to me, suggests that other purposeful changes are possible. Still, it begs the question: Why change a trouble maker instead of destroying them? Well, the common theme among the immortal planars seems to be reincarnation. No matter what you do, they seem to come back, whether they are quori, rakshasas, etc. Simply killing an egotistical angel in Syrania won't work because he'll just be reborn. To truly deal with them, you have to change them into something that's not as problematic for you. In the case of radiant idols, it seems the angels think that an immortal pretender to divinity is better bound to Eberron than free among the planes. Can it go the other way? Can a devil redeem itself and turn into an Angel? If so, is it something only Baatorian devils can do, and not those on Shavarath, Mabar, Dollurh, etc.? I think the problem is in trying to think of "devils" as a meaningful group in Eberron's cosmology. They aren't. It's pretty clear from the 3.5 ECS that the old planars are deliberately taken out of the limelights in favor of giving the new groups a chance. Gone are the celestials, baatezu, and tanar'ri. In come the couatl, rakshasas, and quori. I'm pretty sure the only reason those races continued existing in Eberron is so that we wouldn't have a hundred pages useless pages in the Monster Manual. IE, Eberron's mandate to find a place for everything meant the baatezu had to be in there somewhere, but they (and other races) ceased to have a meaningful cosmological position. If one reads through the 3.5 materials, baatezu and the rest cease to be real groups at all. They're just a subtype that refers to a few common abilities, but otherwise, a pit fiend in Fernia and a Gelugon in Risia have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  In 4E, the entire game is much more aggressive about finding a way to make everything fit. Every monster, race, ritual, feat, and power is supposed to be able to fit into all campaign settings. The old "If it's in D&D, it has a place in Eberron" mandate is now, "If it exists in 4E, it exists everywhere in 4E."  Anyway, that's all tangental. I think to save Baator, we have to completely rethink it. If it requires a total rework, why even bother? Better to scrap the entire plane if making it work seems to demand a complete alteration of what it is.  When "importing" elements like Baator, I prefer to do as little alteration as possible in order to maintain coherency between products. If a DM finds an adventure set in Baator he'd like to run for his Eberron game, it's a lot easier if Baator is basically the same between cosmologies. If it's suddenly populated with angels, tanar'ri, etc. or is otherwise completely reworked, well, it's no longer useful.
#10 AvonRekaes Dec 29, 2009 15:39:10	Because making it the same between cosmologies involves changing the rest of Eberron. Now we're suddenly entertaining thoughts like Devils throughout the planes used to be something other than what they are. So now the Armies of Shavarath used to be Archons, Demons, and Angels, and is now Archons, Demons, and Devils? Sure that might be interesting, but it's changing what went before. Either way you go, you're gonna have to change something. I'd rather change the intruding element than make Eberron as a whole more generic. (Fallen angels? Why, those are devils! What are these radiant idols you're talking about?) Like you said, devils and demons and all that used to feel much more like a genus classification by planar scholars than an actual thematic link. But the inclusion of Baator, the home plane of devils, with the ruler of all devils, changes that. Now we have a plane of devils, with an origin story for devils. Does that spread to all devils everywhere? If so, why? If not, why not? Personally, I don't want to see Baator being given prime real estate in the history of Eberron's cosmos. I don't want this sore piece of Core lore sticking out and giving itself attention. Unless we strip it of its Core lore. So what does Baator really need to be in Eberron for? Why must it be included in the first place? The use of Archdevils and Dukes of Hell seems like the only thing we really need Baator for. We have places in the setting for (I think) every type of devil already. So we only need a place to put the bigguns. ...Even then I'm wondering why they couldn't just be generals and schemers in the eternal war of Shavarath, home to the previous largest concentration of diabolic forces in Eberron's cosmos. Maybe you're right. We should just ignore Baator completely. But I was hoping as a community we might be able to tie as much of it's core lore into pre-existing Eberron lore as possible before dumping the rest. Fallen angels don't work, because we have those already and it raises too many questions about devils not in Baator. The murder of a god does work, because we already have an unnamed, forbidden deity in the setting. There might be some mental hoops to jump through to get it to make sense, but it's feesabe. So what else can we do? Maybe Baator is really the source of the diabolic forces on Shavarath, and that plane's devils aren't really native. Perhaps Asmodeus sends the bulk of his forces to interfere with the lawful good/chaotic evil war raging there. Sure that changes the source of Shavarathi devils to being non-native, but right now I can't see what other implications that would have that unnecessarily infringe on elements of Eberron already in place (like devils being fallen angels does on the niche of radiant idols).
#11 ellorin Dec 29, 2009 18:37:31	I dunno, something. But Baator's core story really needs to either be done away with enirely or severely reworked. Because it just plain doesn't fit in Eberron. Except possibly the killing, metaphorically or otherwise, of the unknown god. But even then, that would be a ridiculously recent event, cosmologically speaking. More recent than Dal Quor being knocked off its orbit. That's like, an eyeblink to any immortal. It would have a bigger impact on the planes culturally speaking than Dal Quor would. Maybe when the Dhakanni Empire started deteriorating and gobinoids started turning to the gods, they might've uncovered tablets from the Age of Demons describing this deceased god, without finding evidence of his destruction. So maybe the gobinoids were worshipping the dead god far far after Asmodeus already killed him (metaphorically or not). Perhaps Sovereign worship on Sarlona knew only enough of this dead god to strike him from existance, again, when they came across his depiction in goblinoid civilization when they migrated to Khorvaire. An elegant solution of the timing issue. Many thanks!
#12 endless_spiral Dec 29, 2009 18:52:42	It's worth noting that the story behind Shavarath at least has changed in 4E. I believe Keith Baker even commented on this at some point. I can't reference my books at the moment, but the 4E ECG mentions that Shavarath is the eternal battlefield because the many forces of the Eberron multiverse believe it to contain the heart of Siberys, control of which will grant whoever untold power. Now, I sort of missed out on D&D during the 3E years (I was doing other things), and I'm new to Eberron with 4E, but I've gathered from reading through these forums that giving Shavarath this story is a change between editions. However, with this take on things, it seems acceptable that nothing is native to Shavarath (the armies that fight there all come from elsewhere), and thus if Shavarath isn't the home of devils, then they need one. Enter Baator. I do agree with AvonRekaes that devils shouldn't necessarily be regarded as fallen angels, as there is enough precedent for other interesting stories of that sort (i.e. the radiant idols). Why can't Baator simply have always been part of the Eberron universe, and the beings that live there (devils) be simply another sort of creature native to the astral sea, distinct from angels or whoever else? Baator can still be a realm emblematic of hubris (as someone suggested) and Asmodeus, for all his pretensions of godhood, is still less than a divine being (much like angels). Sure, this is something of a retcon between editions, and people who grew to love the 3E version of Eberron might be uncomfortable with this take. But it really only matters to the extent that you want to use devils in the stories you want to tell in Eberron and are concerned that they have some justification for who they are and where they come from, or if you want your adventurers to visit the nine hells. I personally think that the continents of Eberron itself offers enough interesting places to set adventures that I see little need to tell intricate planar adventures that take characters across the universe. It's worth noting that, as the core "points of light" world lacks any sort of well-developed geography, it becomes more useful to have the Manual of the Planes around as source material for developing upper paragon and epic level stories. Eberron has enough interesting stories to tell that the intricacies of its cosmology need not be worked out in incredible detail.
#13 ellorin Dec 29, 2009 18:56:35	Either way you go, you're gonna have to change something. I'd rather change the intruding element than make Eberron as a whole more generic. (Fallen angels? Why, those are devils! What are these radiant idols you're talking about?) Like you said, devils and demons and all that used to feel much more like a genus classification by planar scholars than an actual thematic link. But the inclusion of Baator, the home plane of devils, with the ruler of all devils, changes that. Now we have a plane of devils, with an origin story for devils. Does that spread to all devils everywhere? If so, why? If not, why not? Actually the ECG does not really mention an origin story-for all we know, devils may actually be natives of many planes and Asmodeus was but the one who created a centralised force and rallied a hue number. In this scenario, convincing or forcing the devils not of Baator to join him is one of Asmodeus', the self-proclaimed lord of all devils, main goals. Who knows?Perhaps Asmodeus himself was not originally a native of Baator. As for the relationship betwee devils and radiant idols, it could merely be an issue of (d)evolution. Radiant idols might be "recently" fallen angels.As the eons go by, they eventually become devils. The magnitude of Asmodeus'and his followers'  betrayal  hastened the process dramatically. Alternatively, it is the effect of Baator on radiant idols. Those who, for any reason, choose to follow the lords of the Nine Hells shall become devils. Then again, there might be no connection between them. Devils can only be spawned on Baator and its unique mix of hubris, evil and depravity is a sine qua non for such a thing. The first devils might have been angels-since then, all fallen angels are radiant idols whereas the spawn of Baator are, by their very nature, devils.
#14 AvonRekaes Dec 29, 2009 23:47:26	The main reason why I don't like any thunder being taken away from Radiant Idols being the sole form of the "fallen angel" trope in Eberron, is that Eberron did the trope so well with them. In Eberron, fallen angels are not horribly transformed beyond recognition and cast down into a supernatural lake of fire. In Eberron, the angels strip their fallen of their wings, and then cast them down to earth (in a manner of speaking). The world is **** enough as-is. That's some great noir stuff right there. As for the war on Shavarath being for the Heart of Siberys, I must have missed that somewhere. I dunno how I feel about there being an ultimate goal to the war on Shavarath, but I must admit that the idea that nothing is native to Shavarath is an appealing one, to help bring Baator in connection with the rest of the cosmos. (It also answers what the elemental-origin demons are doing on an astral domain. So, nicely done for a 4e set-up) Perhaps Asmodeus seized the Heart of Siberys for just an instant, and used its power to slay his master/destroy all records of a god so he could ascend in his place/seal the pathway to the home of the Sovereigns/all-of-the-above. But before he could do anything else, he was stopped by some exterior force (Maybe an Archon champion, or a Demon Prince) and the magic he was channel went awry and warped Baator into its prison-plane state. Note that the corruption of the Plane doesn't have to coincide with any "fallen angel" conversion of angels to devils. Baator could have always been a home to devils, perhaps placed by the Sovereigns to be the fiercest, most horrifying wardens possible for the Gate to the Gods. But Baator itself is a pretty crappy plane, and probably not the one Asmodeus wanted to rule over. So you get to keep the theme of Hubris, without necessarily forcing Asmodeus and company to once have been angels and step on any radiant idol toes.
#15 Gilo Dec 30, 2009 0:25:02	Baator could be a prison where Asmodeus (one of the prisoners) may have lead a prison rebellion against its celestial owners. The devils can be the old wardens under the new corrupting, rebellious management. Asmodeus (which now controls Baator but still can't get out of it) sends devils to Shavarath to get the prison key which is the Heart of Siberys.
#16 Sarlax Dec 31, 2009 3:19:49	The main reason why I don't like any thunder being taken away from Radiant Idols being the sole form of the "fallen angel" trope in Eberron, is that Eberron did the trope so well with them. That's why I'm proposing a variant in which baatezu aren't "fallen angels." They are instead angels remade to serve a different purpose. Radiant Idols are literally fallen angels - their wings are torn off and they fall from Syrania to Eberron as punishment for seeking worship. That works without too much trouble in 4E - except that Syrania is no longer the abode of angels, but just angels of specific gods. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... I originally thought up my baatezu alternative as a general option for all angels - Asmodeus is an angel who tries to force other angels to be, in essence, pantheists instead of monotheists or cultists. But what if each collective of angels forces a different punishment on its strays? IE, the angels of Syrania create radiant angels, but maybe the angels of other worlds make different beings. They cannot destroy rogues, but they can make them something which they consider less threatening. The baatezu might be rejected angels of a different plane altogether. Hell, other races might also be the rogue rejects of various angel groups. Maybe the Daelkyr are such beings. It might explain why they seem to have such angelic, humanoid faces. Just more to mull on, really.
#17 AvonRekaes Jan 01, 2010 0:29:58	Well, I see little reason to bring back any tie to angels whatsoever. It's just core stuff that isn't needed. The story of Baator, the essential part of it, betrayal and hubris, does not necessitate any connection with angellic beings. Although, your method does keep Radiant Idols a unique niche in the setting, so that at least doesn't step on any Eberron-lore toes, and is internally consistent with the setting. However, I think your reasoning should be reversed? Most Sovereign Vassals are panthiests. People who worship one specific sovereign above all others are actually in the minority. (As from what I remember, I can't recall if it was Hellcow's forum posts, or a Dragonshard, or a sourcebook, but Favored Souls in 3e were divine casters dedicated to singular sovereigns, and were seen as kind of weird? I dunno, I'm just left with that impression).
#18 Sarlax Jan 01, 2010 17:33:53	However, I think your reasoning should be reversed? Most Sovereign Vassals are panthiests. People who worship one specific sovereign above all others are actually in the minority. Actually, most people who worship the Sovereigns are closer to henotheists, people who worship one or few gods while recognizing more exist. The typical follower genuinely worships only a few gods, even if they believe other gods exist. Vassals of the Host also tend to exclude from most recognition the Dark Six. For their part, servants of the Dark Six tend to focus very strongly on the worship of a single god, with only occasional prayers being offered to other beings. A farmer probably only truly venerate Arawai, but he still throws a prayer to Kol Korran when he goes to the market - and maybe he prays to the Devourer now and then for a storm to wipe out a rival's crops. In other words, worshipers are playing favorites with deities, and this is the heresy and hubris that (I suggest) Asmodeus detests. A mortal (or any non-divine being) has neither the power, wisdom, or right to differentiate between gods, and they insult all gods when they revere them unequally. I propose not that Asmodeus is trying to make people simply believe that all these gods exist, but that he seeks to bend all beings to the absolute and equal worship of them all. More important to Asmodeus, though, is the conversion of angels. I'd say this for two reasons. First, baatezu aren't big in Eberron - they don't scheme like the Lords, the Quori, etc. They just aren't a big presence in the world, so I prefer an explanation for baatezu behavior that doesn't require them stealing the cosmological spotlight. Second, angels are "where it's at" in the planes. These are the beings with the power to fundamentally alter patterns of worship in all the planes. Asmodeus wants to recruit angels to his particular brand of faith. Using this model, Asmodeus's goal is, effectively, to reverse the Schism. He wants to unite all the angels into the service of all gods - and then use the angelic army to bring this religion to Eberron. Baator is a place of traitors and deceivers not because this is what Asmodeus seeks to strengthen, but because *angels* call him a traitor and deceiver. Asmodeus has always tried to lure angels away from their current duties (venerating single gods) into what they perceive as a bizarre, heretical, totalitarian faith.
#19 jcardiii Jan 02, 2010 20:57:04	...In other words, worshipers are playing favorites with deities, and this is the heresy and hubris that (I suggest) Asmodeus detests. A mortal (or any non-divine being) has neither the power, wisdom, or right to differentiate between gods, and they insult all gods when they revere them unequally. I propose not that Asmodeus is trying to make people simply believe that all these gods exist, but that he seeks to bend all beings to the absolute and equal worship of them all. ... Using this model, Asmodeus's goal is, effectively, to reverse the Schism. He wants to unite all the angels into the service of all gods - and then use the angelic army to bring this religion to Eberron. Baator is a place of traitors and deceivers not because this is what Asmodeus seeks to strengthen, but because *angels* call him a traitor and deceiver. Asmodeus has always tried to lure angels away from their current duties (venerating single gods) into what they perceive as a bizarre, heretical, totalitarian faith. That feels Eberron to me. Under this model, a "devil worshiper" has more to fear from Asmodeus than from the forces of right and justice. "If my 'diety' had to publicly acknowledge that I worshiped him, he would strike me down. I'd best be very, very quiet about my beliefs. Because of course, I'm right, and the ultimate powers are devils, and they want to be worshiped. They just can't say so." The devils who want and recruit worshipers do so on the sly, out of sight of the infernal hierarchy. Possibly with cutouts and false names. An infernal pact for a warlock might become a matter of denial. "Baator? No, no, of course not. I deal with powers originating in the less well-traveled parts of Thelanis. I have been assured that the Fey teleportation effects will happen when I am skilled enough." Yes.
#20 zebastian Jan 28, 2010 0:41:10	Similar to other posters in this thread, i have been thinking about how Asmodeus fits in 4E Eberron, especially in the contextual framework of the Thir religion.  Although there is no proof in Eberron that Gods exist, their Angels certainly do (according to the ECG anyways). Whatever else Asmodeus may be in 4E, he is of Angelic stock, perhaps the mightiest Angel known to exist. Given that angels are servants of the gods, gods that are potentially the ascended dragons that comprise the Sovereign Host & Dark Six, this would in turn suggest that Asmodeus has rebelled against draconic rule of the cosmos itself. Baator would be a threat in the Sea of Siberys akin to the threats posed by Dal Quor, Xoriat, and/or the Lords of Dust in Eberron.  Back on Eberron itself, the Eyes of Chronepsis and the Conclave might perceive the "lesser races" trafficking with Devils as a blasphemy tantamount to mortals practicing Thir. Its possible the peculiar nature of Sarlona might have hid Asmodeus's influence in Ohr Kaluuun , but what would Argonessan do about it in Khorvaire. Would the Chamber attempt to deal with such matters discretely, lest their elders unleash destruction on a grand scale? Could some of the Dragonborn be foot soliders of Argonessan's crusade to cleanse this taint from Eberron ? (As a siderail, I imagine the Dragonborn having a myth/cult of the coming of Bahamut from beyond the veil where Dragons ascend after Sovereignty, a Draconic version of Gandalf the White crossed with Aslan, an antithesis Tiamat's corruption.) Beyond the predictable Tiefling enclaves, where else in Khorvaire might one find the machinations of Baator? Could it have been Infernal inspiration that lead to the creation of the Library of Korranberg, who's founder sought to ascend as a Draconic Sovereign? Would Zilgaro, given the gnomish culture of intrigue and conspiracy, prove fertile ground for resources to usurp the cosmic order? Imagine the Trust and/or House Sivis harboring a diabolic cabal with sinister agendas of global or even planar domination.  Just like the existence of the gods themselves, the truth of the above should never be truly known, just options for a DM to weave (or not weave) into their campaign. Naturally, i would be curious about Hellcow's take on Asmodeus in the 4E Eberron cosmology - if anyone has a link to such a thing, i would be much obliged.
#21 AvonRekaes Jan 29, 2010 9:24:19	Hmm, I really like the inclusion of the draconic religion of Thir into this. Perhaps Asmodeus recognized that he was basically the greatest of all angels, and chaffed at serving merely the Sovereigns, the least of all gods in Thir. Maybe he finally had enough of it and proved his superiority by murdering the Sixteenth, proving that he was worthy of serving greater beings. Then of course he was stripped of most of his power and banished to a prison plane.
#22 ChrisTheS Feb 01, 2010 21:35:14	In keeping with the premise of planes tied to celestial bodies, I envision Baator as being an interloper tied to an asteroid or comet that has recently (re)appeared in Eberron's vicinity.  Thus I don't need to work it into the cosmology because it's an alien shard of some other world's astral space.
#23 AvonRekaes Feb 02, 2010 0:02:27	Interesting. So Asmodeus and co. are expressly from another cosmology in your Eberron? How do you handle Asmodeus's divinity?
#24 ChrisTheS Feb 02, 2010 12:14:05	Not quite sure what you mean by that.
#25 AvonRekaes Feb 02, 2010 18:54:41	Do you keep Asmodeus as a true god like he is in the Core books? Cause then he'd be the only true god that you could possibly go and visit, since all of Eberron's gods are kinda distant. Or do you just treat him as a hideously powerful entity like the Rakshasa Rajahs, but not actually a god?
#26 ChrisTheS Feb 02, 2010 20:08:16	It's not an issue for me, so I don't have an answer for you.  Since the conceit is that Baator has only appeared in Eberron's astral orbit within the past few game months, it hasn't been around long enough to be any sort of philosophical quandary yet.
#27 AvonRekaes Feb 03, 2010 0:30:05	Gotcha. I was just wondering if you had further plans for using an interloping plane. Sounds like a cool idea and I was trying to pick your brain for all the juicy DM details. :P
#28 ChrisTheS Feb 03, 2010 11:09:42	Sorry - not being in a position to GM at present, I haven't bothered to come up with new plot bunnies.  The idea of it being on an asteroid is just an extension of my standard policy on Eberron's cosmology. Although I suppose one could do a sort of War of the Worlds-type campaign with devils mounting a spearhead once the asteroid's orbit got close enough...
#29 Sarlax Feb 03, 2010 12:37:12	In keeping with the premise of planes tied to celestial bodies, I envision Baator as being an interloper... Hey, that is interesting. I very much like the idea of it being a new element. What might have brought it into Eberron's "orbit?" I know you haven't developed the idea, I'm just positing the question to stimulate discussion. It's a cliche, but it could be (surprise!) related to the Mourning. Perhaps the disruption caused by so many arcane deaths pulled Baator into the local cosmology. It could also be the reverse. Baator's arrival may have destroyed Cyre. Baator's presented in 4E as an actual physical world, not an infinite cosmological expanse. Maybe it *is* a world. Maybe it's Eberron's deep past. We know that millions of years ago Eberron was ruled by fiends. Maybe Baator is ancient Eberron, from a slice of time when all the fiends were made to serve a single master, Asmodeus. The "god" the Asmodeus killed might be Siberys or simply a previous, even more powerful rajah. Baator could also be Eberron's future. Perhaps the Prophecy speaks of a terrible reckoning. Khyber will open through Eberron and millions of fiends will come through under the command of a great rajah who seeks to destroy Eberron itself, making Eberron the "deity" that Asmodeus has or will-have killed. Baator might simply be a portion of Khyber. Khyber is a realm in which powerful evil outsiders are imprisoned, after all. Maybe Baator is a region in Khyber dominated by powerful rajah. As we have rajahs that embody war or temptation, Asmodeus might be the incarnation of betrayal, faithlessness, or hubris.
#30 ChrisTheS Feb 03, 2010 14:26:16	An eye or fang of Khyber, gouged out or broken off before the Dragon Below was sealed within Eberron's coils and sent drifting in space in an erratic orbit that brings it back to Eberron's vicinity at unpredictable times... (I prefer it as being alien, but that's an option for a closed cosmos).
#31 AvonRekaes Feb 03, 2010 15:05:22	Hrm. The idea of Asmodeus being a Rajah in the ancient past that ruled the entire world, even other Rajahs, makes me think of The Scar that Abides from City of Stormreach. He was said to be a Rajah that demanded fealty, even from other rajahs.