However, something that's always bothered me is that the very symbol of the Silver Flame is an arrowhead, and the favored weapon is the longbow.
So, why wouldn't Thrane be akin to England? Boasting large masses of (trained!) longbow-equipped infantry?
Les Grognards....LE GRUMBLE!
The Church of the Silver Flame isn't a nation of insane fanatics. Among other things, the larger portion of SF zealots is actually in Aundair. The CotSF teaches people to be prepared to fight the evil that DOES exist in the world. At any time, aberrations COULD burst out of Khyber. The Silver Crusade against the lycanthropes is an example of the fact that Thrane and the church COULD assemble a militant force capable of mounting a foreign campaign on short notice.
In any case, in the early design of the world, my concept of the strengths of each nation in the Last War were as follows:
Aundair. Small population, kept afloat by its strong edge in arcane magic.
Breland. Edge in population, industry, and espionage. Overall military discipline inferior to many other nations, but forces include a number of highly charismatic and clever commanders willing to take personal initiative. So trouble with Karrnath overall, but often wins battles against all odds or by cheating (with assassins and spies).
Cyre. Relies heavily on mercenary forces to make up for a lack of combat strength. Reasonable magical support, in part due to heavy purchasing from House Cannith.
Karrnath. Best military discipline; excellent heavy infantry; decent arcane support; necromancy as a tool.
Thrane. Excellent peasant militia; morale; archery; divine magic. Small but capable force in the Knights of Thrane. The key here is that Thrane's peasant population includes a high percentage of trained archers and the faith teaches people to be ready to fight. It lacks the full military strategy/discipline you get from a Karrnathi force, but they have access to vast numbers of peasant archers with high morale due to their shared faith. So yes, I have always seen Thrane vs Karrnath as an Agincourt situation: Karrnath has superior heavy armor, Thrane has the best archers in the land.
Overall, I think Thrane's depiction in Forge of War misses a lot of what the Silver Flame is about, and IIRC James Wyatt agrees with me.
But as always, it's up to you to decide what your Eberron looks like...
The Silver Flame preaches that each should oppose evil to the best of their capability and profession. The Church does not expact simple farmers to be able to use weapons and take up physical arms against evil.
Yes and no. The church doesn't EXPECT it, but as it acknowledges the dangers out there, it's good to be prepared if you can. Looking to this Dragonshard, it's said "Priests also encourage archery as a form of meditation, and in many communities the faithful can come to train at the local church of the Flame. This can result in an unusually high number of 1st-level warriors or commoners with Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) in areas devoted to the Flame."
I'll have to come back to this thread in a couple days once I'm done researching and writing this paper. My initial reaction, though, is satisfaction that two other noteable people agree with me.
As for my paper, its on the logistics of the European Theater of Operations, and if you really want to know why I'm here, I'm waiting for The Transportation Corps: Operations Overseas to load. Its one of the "The US Army in World War II" books, otherwise known as the Green Books.
By contrast, Thrane's military tradition isn't concerned with conquering nations or fighting other humans. Nonetheless, the fundamental principle of the church is to defend the innocent against the very real, often physical threat of supernatural evil. When the war began, the templars of the church likely had the most hands-on recent experience with combat, because they'd been fighting undead, outbreaks from Khyber, raids from the Demon Wastes, and what have you. Meanwhile, you have peasant militias trained to defend the helpless when the darkness rises, and in Eberron that could happen any day.
This is why I give Thrane the edge in morale. Karrnath has the edge in discipline and mass tactics. Breland the edge in industry. But the people of Thrane have had drilled into them that terrible things could happen any day and that they need to be ready to stand together and defend the weak from harm. They didn't expect that threat to be other humans, and that's a tragic waste - but they still knew that you had to be ready to string your bow and fight on a moment's notice. Essentially, think of the way some people have a Zombie Apocalypse Survival Plan. That everyone in Thrane - they just had to convert their tactics to dealing with humans.
So Thrane began with a small standing army in the templars... but a force with considerable experience ("Hey, Brelish! What have you been doing for training? Me, I've been hunting ghouls."). This was then supplemented by Minuteman-style peasant militias.
HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... The Flame is spread across Khorvaire. You'd have Flame militias in Cyre, too. The issue is simply than in Thrane you're more likely to have an entire village who shares the faith, dedicates space to an archery range, and trains together... while in Breland, you might have two families in a village who folllow the faith.
I would have guessed some small sabatoge/black ops units, as well.
So, Cyre stays relevant mostly through mercs and magical tech, with some of their own magic? I would have guessed some small sabatoge/black ops units, as well.
It's mainly a matter of looking at the facilities the nations possessed prior to the war.
Karrnath was home to Rekkenmark and was the center of Galifar's military leadership. Hence, best military discipline and strategists, with a culture that produced determined soldiers.
Aundair was home to the Arcane Congress and thus possessed the edge in arcane firepower and research, and its people largely considered magic to be a better solution to problems than physical force.
Thrane had Flamekeep, with the bulk of the templars, devout peasant populace, and the greatest number of militant divine casters (Sovereign casters generally being disorganized and not for the most part warlike).
Aside from its industrial complex, Breland had the King's Citadel, which was originally the KING OF GALIFAR'S Citadel - thus, Breland has always had the edge in espionage and intelligence. This is further advanced by its ties to both Zilargo and House Medani.
Meanwhile, Cyre was the cultural and administrative center of the kingdom. On the plus side, this meant they had the bulk of the treasury and thus greater resources for hiring all those mercenaries. On the minus side, having the finest art gallery in the land isn't quite as helpful in wartime as having the college of war or the finest magical research facilities.
Bear in mind: EVERY nation employed arcane and divine magic, mercenaries, spies, etc. Cyre may have used mercenaries extensively, but they still had their citizen soldiers too. And in the start of the war, every nation had some number of Citadel-trained spies, Rekkenmark-trained officers, etc, because the facility belonged to GALIFAR. The first Royal Eyes of Aundair were King's Dark Lanterns from Aundair who changed their name when the Citadel was subsumed by the Brelish crown. It's simply the case that the nations that housed those facilities both had the facilities themselves and had more of a cultural disposition to that sort of thing.
With that said, I agree that Cyre would have some decent black ops groups, and the proof (that I think this) is that we see one of those units in The Fading Dream.
I could go for Eberron and Dragonlance being the two main settings in Next. Almost complete opposites, and both really awesome.
Anyway, I think the superior financial resources thing could lead to black ops with some really shiny toys. I mean, PC types with all the right gear, sort of thing.
Doesn't hurt to be able to purchase the loyalty of the best monster and civilized mercs around, either.
Makes me want to play during the war. Possibly toward the beginning. I really hope you get to do some suppliments for different eras in Next, Keith.
Think about it! Thrane doesn't have any major centers of industry, nor do they have access to large amounts of iron ore. They do have a few forests, which would be ideal to make spears from. Plus, a forest of spears would protect the longbowmen from direct assault, and those spearmen would probably stick around because of high morale. On the attack, Thrane would have to rely on the Knights to punch a hole for the spearmen to flood through.
This means that Thraneish forces would be pretty good on defense, but would kinda suck at taking ground. Offensively, they'd rely on fire superiority to smash the enemy before committing to an offensive with their infantry.
Branching out, though, I kinda think that Breland would have the forces with the highest morale, because a lot of their people would be volunteers doing their civic duty. Look at the American Civil War; units from both sides took brutal casualties, but still stayed and fought together (I remember some of the units from the Iron Brigade took casualties as high as 80% and kept on trucking).
So, doing the thinking. I can see Thranish forces unleashing hailstorms of arrows from their trained archers. The rest of their forces, though, probably consists of spearmen.
Think about it! Thrane doesn't have any major centers of industry, nor do they have access to large amounts of iron ore. They do have a few forests, which would be ideal to make spears from. Plus, a forest of spears would protect the longbowmen from direct assault, and those spearmen would probably stick around because of high morale. On the attack, Thrane would have to rely on the Knights to punch a hole for the spearmen to flood through.
This means that Thraneish forces would be pretty good on defense, but would kinda suck at taking ground. Offensively, they'd rely on fire superiority to smash the enemy before committing to an offensive with their infantry.
Branching out, though, I kinda think that Breland would have the forces with the highest morale, because a lot of their people would be volunteers doing their civic duty. Look at the American Civil War; units from both sides took brutal casualties, but still stayed and fought together (I remember some of the units from the Iron Brigade took casualties as high as 80% and kept on trucking).
I like the concept of Thrane being a force with great endurance, but they're slow to move and take opportunities. Once they've taken a piece of important ground (Thaliost) its hard to force them out.
Aundair could be something of the opposite, with a great offensive edge in their arcane magic and prizing mobility over endurance. Since they had lots of access to the Reaches and Vadalis, they could have fielded the most cavalry out of the nations. They don't have any great access to iron, like Thrane, so maybe they made use of Magewright Light Cavalry to hit really hard and clear the way for their militias to take the field. Considering the big 'boom' potential of arcane magic, I think it'd make sense that their lack of heavy units would be a big issue with them really holding onto their gains.
And I agree that Breland would probably have the highest morale, but I think the fact that they'd probably be the best supplied is a big factor in that. Karrnathi soldiers go into battle on the edge of starvation, the Aundairian and Thranish soldiers have rather poor and beaten equipment, and the Cyrans are everyone's favorite punching bags. The Brelish might not be living in luxury, but they go into battle better fed and probably better rested.
One other thing, I'd like to suggest that Cyre had the strongest navy. Both because its a nation of waterways and ports, and because they have nothing else.
Essentially, I see Thrane relying on massive, English-like volleys of longbow fire to degrade, slow, and demoralize attackers. If the attack comes to a halt, then I can see the Thranes launching a countercharge. Without that sort of fire support, a Thranish front-line unit cannot survive against other nations. Only by literal divine intervention can Thranish infantry approach parity with other infantry from the Five Nations.
I absolutely agree with your ideas about Aundair. If you look at their noteable unit (the Knights Phantom, of the Knights Arcane), you see...dragoons. Infantry who move about the battlefield with the alacrity of cavalry, only to dismount and fight on foot. With company (or platoon?)-sized units having access to arcane magic in the form of eternal wands and whatnot, Aundair can put out a surprising amount of pain. However, on the defense....yeah, not so much. They might be able to use hordes of summoned monsters, but.....
Concerning Cyre, I think you're forgetting the wealth of the Purple Jewel. Cyre had crazy amounts of wealth, and so, they could hire lots of mercenaries. Sure, some of these mercenaries include the Darguul and Valenar forces that would eventually stab them in the back....but other mercenary forces also include the Warforged legions of Cannith, which are flat-out terrifying forces.
Areleth, have you looked at any of the other threads on this board? There's a small group of us who overthink things about Eberron....and make wonderful, wonderful ideas.
Only by literal divine intervention can Thranish infantry approach parity with other infantry from the Five Nations.
Of course, it should be pointed out that Thrane HAD more literal divine intervention than any other nation. While not every priest is a divine spellcaster, the Church of the Silver Flame is nonetheless a militant faith that has spent centuries honing the use of their elite divine units. Don't forget that prior to the Last War, the most recent large-scale conflict that's been described was the Silver Crusade (Purge). Thrane might be reluctant to deploy templars against mundane foes as it's not the purpose of the church - but while Aundair has the arcane edge, Thrane - or at least the church - has a history of deploying divine magic in a practical, hands-on military capacity.
The thing about saying that Thrane has endurance, well...I don't know. Frankly, I think that they would defend most effectively by fire, not by steel. I don't see Thranes closing for the decision, because their front-line infantry are low quality. Similarly, I don't see them standing like a stone wall either. Ward off an isolated cavalry charge or two once they schiltrom up? Sure. But, if a Thranish front line takes a hard enough shock, I don't think they're coming back.
Essentially, I see Thrane relying on massive, English-like volleys of longbow fire to degrade, slow, and demoralize attackers. If the attack comes to a halt, then I can see the Thranes launching a countercharge. Without that sort of fire support, a Thranish front-line unit cannot survive against other nations. Only by literal divine intervention can Thranish infantry approach parity with other infantry from the Five Nations.
That's quite true, but I should have been clear that I was thinking of long-term endurance, because of their clerics and adepts. They can get their wounded back into action much quicker and in much greater numbers. Obviously the Thranes were routed and lost ground off and on throughout the war, but I'm thinking that in terms of a long campaign or siege they can outlast their attackers through their divine magic. This method is supported through their reliance on longbowmen, because fewer of their people are in direct combat. So their armies aren't really that incredible, but they keep coming back and every attack you make against them is wearing your own force down more and more. They also had less territory to defend, so they weren't diverting their numbers off to retake the Reach or fight off elves riding up through Talenta.
So the Karrns absolutely have them beat with short-term endurance, but their victories just didn't mean much unless they could really make it definitive.
I absolutely agree with your ideas about Aundair. If you look at their noteable unit (the Knights Phantom, of the Knights Arcane), you see...dragoons. Infantry who move about the battlefield with the alacrity of cavalry, only to dismount and fight on foot. With company (or platoon?)-sized units having access to arcane magic in the form of eternal wands and whatnot, Aundair can put out a surprising amount of pain. However, on the defense....yeah, not so much. They might be able to use hordes of summoned monsters, but.....
Their peasant militia's would be pretty tenacious when defending their homes, but would probably have the worst morale of anyone when fighting on enemy soil. The Thranes have faith, the Karrns have discipline, Cyrans were almost always defending, and the Brelish have full stomachs, but the Aundarians miss their homes and fighting with their (extended) families.
It could also be a big factor their loss of the Reaches. Aundair tactics revolve around decimating the enemy regulars and taking the field, but the Reachers never provided them a big target to hit. Their peasant militias weren't happy about fighting their countrymen, and their magewrights and wizards (the real power behind their military) were being targeted constantly by Ranger marksmen. They really had no idea how to deal with it and couldn't risk the further loss of the arcane strength, so they pulled back.
Concerning Cyre, I think you're forgetting the wealth of the Purple Jewel. Cyre had crazy amounts of wealth, and so, they could hire lots of mercenaries. Sure, some of these mercenaries include the Darguul and Valenar forces that would eventually stab them in the back....but other mercenary forces also include the Warforged legions of Cannith, which are flat-out terrifying forces.
Them having nothing else was a joke, sorta, though it does nag at me a lot. But I was still quite serious about their navy. It seems like Cyre had more ports and waterways, and I imagine was a center of trade with Aerenal, so the idea that they had a fair majority of Galifar's navy at the start of the war makes sense to me. Their southern cities were said to be mostly untouched by the war, and I'm thinking that's not only because they were a fair distance from the most obvious targets for Karrnath and Thrane, but also due to their superiority in naval affairs. Really, the majority of their naval efforts could have been dealing with the Lhazaar Pirates that were hired to disrupt their trade routes.
Plus it'd be an interesting source for the core of the Darguuni navy.
Areleth, have you looked at any of the other threads on this board? There's a small group of us who overthink things about Eberron....and make wonderful, wonderful ideas.
I do read a lot of threads here, and I am constantly filled with joyous shame that my ideas rarely compare to the great ones floating around here. Its really helped flesh out the world for me.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />And I agree that Breland would probably have the highest morale, but I think the fact that they'd probably be the best supplied is a big factor in that. Karrnathi soldiers go into battle on the edge of starvation, the Aundairian and Thranish soldiers have rather poor and beaten equipment, and the Cyrans are everyone's favorite punching bags. The Brelish might not be living in luxury, but they go into battle better fed and probably better rested.
One other thing, I'd like to suggest that Cyre had the strongest navy. Both because its a nation of waterways and ports, and because they have nothing else.
The Cyrans not only had the mercs, but the best mercs, with good equipment, and their own military forces had the best equipment. Want to know what a Cyran black ops team looks like? Give a group of CharOp regulars access to all the magic items available, and let them build characters of a given level.
Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.
The Cyrans not only had the mercs, but the best mercs, with good equipment, and their own military forces had the best equipment. Want to know what a Cyran black ops team looks like? Give a group of CharOp regulars access to all the magic items available, and let them build characters of a given level.
Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.
Lets not kid ourselves, we all know that Cyran soldiers fall over in a stiff breeze.
I acknowledge that Cyre was loaded, but I don't think their regulars were better equiped than any other Nation. Karrnath, I think, fielded the best equiped soldiers en masse. Not because of their industrial capacity, but I think that they likely had well maintained family armors and weapons.
I'll agree that Cyre had the most access to cutting edge equipment though. Probably had more artificers than Aundair, and had Cannith's best workshops just down the street. So they could certainly outfit small groups very well, but even with their wealth I don't think outfiting whole armies was within reason. Especially when they needed so many mercenaries to fill out their ranks.
Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.
I'd have to disagree here.
What Cyre's money buys is the best that can be bought, which means what Cannith has to offer. The trick is that what Cannith has to offer is available to all nations. Cyre, for example, had more warforged, but every nation fielded warforged units.
On the other hand, as the seat of the Arcane Congress, Aundair had access to whatever unique arcane magic Galifar had been developing. As the military seat of the Silver Flame, Thrane had access to military applications of divine magic that Cannith couldn't duplicate. Karrnath was the ancestral seat of Galifar's military and had the longest martial culture, meaning heirloom magic arms and armor... and later in the war, you have the use of necromancy.
Cyre certainly had the best and most expensive mercs. They had MORE of Cannith's arms than anyone else, and these things allowed them to survive. And I agree that their elite special ops units would be very impressive, because they could afford to twink them out to a crazy degree. But I don't think that overall, their forces were the most "high tech". To me, that distinction falls to Aundair - which is why Aundair remained a viable player in the war despite its smaller size and population.
And in terms of "their mercs were close", especially at the start of the war, I'd say the mercs were far better. Mercenaries are a huge factor in Cyre's favor. Set aside the warforged, and you have the following:
* The Valenar: The typical Valenar were the equal of most nation's elite forces, and their elite forces were essentially without peer. Of course, their impact is limited by their numbers, but Cyre's essential monopoly on the Valenar was a boon to begin with... even though it didn't work out so well at the end.
* The Blademark: Here's another place where money matters. Anyone could purchase Deneith services, but Cyre could step in at the start and purchase the best they had to offer. Just as Aundair had some tricks Cannith didn't, the soldiers of each nation had some tricks Deneith didn't. But Deneith's best were certainly some of the best on Khorvaire, and Cyre got the best.
* The Goblins: An entirely unexpected force capable of inspiring a certain level of fear by virtue of being unknown and inhuman. And even the strongest human can't match the might of a strong bugbear. The Darguuls were raiders and shock troops, but they were an important factor in catching Breland offguard on what it expected to be an easy front.
Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.
I'd have to disagree here.
What Cyre's money buys is the best that can be bought, which means what Cannith has to offer. The trick is that what Cannith has to offer is available to all nations. Cyre, for example, had more warforged, but every nation fielded warforged units.
On the other hand, as the seat of the Arcane Congress, Aundair had access to whatever unique arcane magic Galifar had been developing. As the military seat of the Silver Flame, Thrane had access to military applications of divine magic that Cannith couldn't duplicate. Karrnath was the ancestral seat of Galifar's military and had the longest martial culture, meaning heirloom magic arms and armor... and later in the war, you have the use of necromancy.
Cyre certainly had the best and most expensive mercs. They had MORE of Cannith's arms than anyone else, and these things allowed them to survive. And I agree that their elite special ops units would be very impressive, because they could afford to twink them out to a crazy degree. But I don't think that overall, their forces were the most "high tech". To me, that distinction falls to Aundair - which is why Aundair remained a viable player in the war despite its smaller size and population.
Odd. IMO, it doesn't make sense for them to not have their own R&D efforts, outside of what Cannith can provide.
I mean, it's not like they don't know that any toy they buy from Cannith is also being sold to every other nation. Further, it's not like there aren't artificers and other arcanists, even brilliant ones, that don't work for Cannith.
I can also see them turning useful people from other nations over to their side through sheer force of money. So I don't think that any arcane resource, in terms of a person's abillities (other than dragonmarks, obviously) that another nation has make sense to not have a few turncoats in Cyre who once had access to that knowledge base. In other words, I assume that Cyre had a few turncoats from the Congress that stole magical secrets to pay their way into a richly appointed Manse in Cyre.
I'v always thought that Aundair remained viable because they just have the most arcane spellcasters, and magically buffed up troops.
Cyre, to me, keeps in the fight by having a solution to partially counter each nation's strength. Small units trained to take out casters, generals, etc. Where Thrane has the english longbowmen, Cyre has exploding arrows. Where Karnnath has the seat of military discipline, Cyre has new schools of tactics where strategies are thought up for the unique skill set of the Cyran military, and mercs with completely different abillities and tactics. None of these things are enough, by themselves, but together they make a military that is never at a loss as to how to respond to it's enemies.
All, IMO, of course. That's just what makes sense to me, because IMO if mercs and more of the tech that everyone else has are their main resources, they should have been stomped into the ground within the first decade of the war.
The Cyrans not only had the mercs, but the best mercs, with good equipment, and their own military forces had the best equipment. Want to know what a Cyran black ops team looks like? Give a group of CharOp regulars access to all the magic items available, and let them build characters of a given level.
Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.
Lets not kid ourselves, we all know that Cyran soldiers fall over in a stiff breeze.
I acknowledge that Cyre was loaded, but I don't think their regulars were better equiped than any other Nation. Karrnath, I think, fielded the best equiped soldiers en masse. Not because of their industrial capacity, but I think that they likely had well maintained family armors and weapons.
I'll agree that Cyre had the most access to cutting edge equipment though. Probably had more artificers than Aundair, and had Cannith's best workshops just down the street. So they could certainly outfit small groups very well, but even with their wealth I don't think outfiting whole armies was within reason. Especially when they needed so many mercenaries to fill out their ranks.
Their normal army also wasn't that large. It's entirely reasonable to think that they were better equiped. It doesn't take much to out-equip nations that have a fraction your wealth. As you said, they had the artificers, they had the cash, and tech, money and small numbers almost always leads to very well equipped, high tech military units. It also leads to very specialized units, rather than trying to have a strong infantry to field, for instance.
The idea that their regular troops couldn't stand up to the troops of other nations just...doesn't work, honestly. Mercs alone cannot explain 100 years of not getting overrun.
Re: naval power: it's reasonable to think that they would have privateers, as well, to disrupt the naval power and trade of other nations.
I also see the Cyran govt. funding R&D like crazy, and fielding new weapons before anyone else, so we agree on the cuttin edge thing.
Odd. IMO, it doesn't make sense for them to not have their own R&D efforts, outside of what Cannith can provide.
Of course they would. But the point is that until a century ago, they didn't have to, because their R&D efforts were called "Aundair." Cyre's money - which was, remember, Galifar's money - was funding the construction of Aundair's arcane labs. So when the war begins - just a century ago - Cyre is faced with the daunting task of mobilizing an immediate defense and getting military conscription into place. They need to build up intelligence support, because what do you know, the King's Citadel is in the hands of Breland. Once they have a basic defense and intelligence running, they can turn to arcane research - but at that point, it's a matter of trying to scrounge the resources and technical expertise to build viable facilities in the middle of a war effort.
Consider nations trying to get nuclear capability today. Aundair is essentially the US. It's got the expertise. It's got the facilities. It knows what rare elements are required, and it's got massive stockpiles of them. Saudi Arabia has a ton of money, but that doesn't mean they can just have a working nuclear bomb project going in five years. Not only do they not have the facilties, but without scientific experts they don't even know what the facilities need to be... and even once they get a facility constructed, they need the fissionable materials. That's Cyre's situation. It had wizards - some trained at the Arcane Congress in the past, others working there when war was declared - but a fraction of the hands-on expertise and none of the facilities, because mystical research was Aundair's purpose in Galifar; Cyre's was governance.
Again: over the course of a century, they'd build up as quickly as they could. They'd get Cannith help in constructing their own facilities. They'd fund their wizards well - though again, the issue is that Aundair had the benefit of centuries worth of stockpiled components to use. So Cannith's forces would certainly have more magical support than, say, Breland or Thrane - I'm just saying that I don't see them as being the MOST "high-tech" of the Five Nations.
And just to clarify: At the start of the war, Cyre had spies from the King's Citadel. It had officers trained in Rekkenmark. And it had wizards trained in the Arcane Congress. Heck, it had paladins of the Silver Flame. Every nation did, because these facilities were national services, and when the war broke out nationals returned to serve their nations. It's simply the case that the nations where these things were based had the BULK of these things because they were a point of national pride, and they also had the bulk of the facilities and resources associated with the specialty; Aundair has the strategic dragonshard reserves, for example. So nations have edges - but at the start of the war, Cyre's defense was being organized by Rekkenmark trained officers commanding units of Galifar's army - officers who had been trained alongside their Karrnathi counterparts.
With that said: You raise an excellent point about the secondary power of gold - corruption. breland may have had the edge in espionage because of the King's Citadel, but Cyre's gold would give it the ability to subvert experts in other nations.
I mean, it's not like they don't know that any toy they buy from Cannith is also being sold to every other nation.
Indeed. Though to bring my point back to the start, what I'm saying is that if Thrane has five warforged titans, Cyre might have a hundred... and when if comes to fighting those Thrane archers, being able to field a few titans makes a big difference. The argument is whether Cyre's forces were more "high-tech". My point is that they had a superior quantity of Cannith magic, as opposed to unique advanced techniques; the most advanced techniques were in the hands of Aundair, which had been the center for magical research for the history of Galifar.
Further, it's not like there aren't artificers and other arcanists, even brilliant ones, that don't work for Cannith.
Certainly. There's lots of brilliant artificers and arcanists who don't work for Cannith. And if they're citizens of Galifar and don't work for Cannith, odds are they honed those skills at Galifar's center for mystical training... the Arcane Congress in Aundair. Now, as I said above, pupils came from across Galifar and returned to their homes afterwards. But it still leaves arcane study as Aundair's point of national pride, and still leaves them with the facilities and resources. Even if Cyre seduces an Aundairian genius away with gold, they still need to build the facilities, get him dragonshards, etc. And bear in mind that it's not so simple as construction. Much of the most powerful magic draws on planar energies. Many of Aundair and Cannith's facilities are constructed in manifest zones, allowing them to tap this power. For the other nations - because EVERY nation immediate put its war magic program into high gear once the war started - it's not just about getting wizards and dragonshards, it's identifying manifest zones and other places that are ideal for construction.
Odd. IMO, it doesn't make sense for them to not have their own R&D efforts, outside of what Cannith can provide.
Of course they would. But the point is that until a century ago, they didn't have to, because their R&D efforts were called "Aundair." Cyre's money - which was, remember, Galifar's money - was funding the construction of Aundair's arcane labs. So when the war begins - just a century ago - Cyre is faced with the daunting task of mobilizing an immediate defense and getting military conscription into place. They need to build up intelligence support, because what do you know, the King's Citadel is in the hands of Breland. Once they have a basic defense and intelligence running, they can turn to arcane research - but at that point, it's a matter of trying to scrounge the resources and technical expertise to build viable facilities in the middle of a war effort.
Consider nations trying to get nuclear capability today. Aundair is essentially the US. It's got the expertise. It's got the facilities. It knows what rare elements are required, and it's got massive stockpiles of them. Saudi Arabia has a ton of money, but that doesn't mean they can just have a working nuclear bomb project going in five years. Not only do they not have the facilties, but without scientific experts they don't even know what the facilities need to be... and even once they get a facility constructed, they need the fissionable materials. That's Cyre's situation. It had wizards - some trained at the Arcane congress in the past, others working their when war was declared - but a fraction of the hands-on expertise and none of the facilities, because mystical research was Aundair's purpose in Galifar; Cyre's was governance.
Again: over the course of a century, they'd build up as quickly as they could. They'd get Cannith help in constructing their own facilities. They'd fund their wizards well - though again, the issue is that Aundair had the benefit of centuries worth of stockpiled components to use. So Cannith's forces would certainly have more magical support than, say, Breland or Thrane - I'm just saying that I don't see them as being the MOST "high-tech" of the Five Nations.
And just to clarify: At the start of the war, Cyre had spies from the King's Citadel. It had officers trained in Rekkenmark. And it had wizards trained in the Arcane Congress. Heck, it had paladins of the Silver Flame. Every nation did, because these facilities were national services, and when the war broke out nationals returned to serve their nations. It's simply the case that the nations where these things were based had the BULK of these things because they were a point of national pride, and they also had the bulk of the facilities and resources associated with the specialty; Aundair has the strategic dragonshard reserves, for example. So nations have edges - but at the start of the war, Cyre's defense was being organized by Rekkenmark trained officers commanding units of Galifar's army - officers who had been trained alongside their Karrnathi counterparts.
With that said: You raise an excellent point about the secondary power of gold - corruption. breland may have had the edge in espionage because of the King's Citadel, but Cyre's gold would give it the ability to subvert experts in other nations.
All great points, but there are a few factors that make it hard for me to abandon my current thinking on the subject.
First, that's a whole century. Nations can completely transform themselves in less time than that. Within a decade, they would have (as always, IMO) gotten their defenses up and figured out their strengths and weaknesses. Within two decades, they would have had arcane colleges, research labs, etc built and staffed.
Second, Cyre was the seat of Galifar's government. That means, to me, that they would have had more Citedel trained spies than any nation other than Breland, more Rekkenmark trained generals than anyone but Karrnath, and more Congress trained Mages than anyone but Aundair. Paladins of the silver flame, not so sure of. In fact, right at the start, I'd expect them to have more active, fully trained veteran spies than Breland. That would quickly change, of course.
There would also have been important figures in magical and alchemical research reporting regularly to the capital, and even people in the know working as liasons, etc.
Over the course of a century, it is very reasonable for a rich nation to build up research facilities.
Now, I read your other post, and you make good sense. What I think the divide is, is that I see the Aundair focusing a bit more on new spells and techniques, but Cyre being the place willing to fund your crazy alchemy/techy magic research that might not pan out for another 30 years, and thus benefiting from that research, just as science works IRL.
So, combine the second most non cannith research of the nations with much more money than any of them, and the application of new magical knowledge would, IMO, lead to Cyre having the "tech" advantage, even if Aundair has many more spellcasters to shoot fire at the enemy.
Over the course of a century, it is very reasonable for a rich nation to build up research facilities.
Correct. Over the course of a century.
Second, Cyre was the seat of Galifar's government. That means, to me, that they would have had more Citedel trained spies than any nation other than Breland, more Rekkenmark trained generals than anyone but Karrnath, and more Congress trained Mages than anyone but Aundair.
And I agree - but what I said above plays in reverse here. There would be more Aundair-trained mages in Cyre at the start of the war. There'd be more Rekkenmark trained generals there, because it's the seat of power. And yet, how many of those wizards were Cyran patriots? How many of those generals were actually Karrns, who would return to Karrnath as soon as Kaius made his plans?
The Citadel, Arcane Congress, and Rekkenmark were all national services. People from across Khorvaire would travel to study their arts. And yet, they are also the pride of their respective nations. Why travel to Aundair to study magic when I could learn the arts of war at Rekkenmark, as my father did before me? We don't need wizards; that's Aundairian work, and we've got an Aundairian wizard down the street doing the rituals that need to be done - at least, those that aren't already being done by Cannith, Kundarak, or the other commercial institutions.
Meanwhile, Cyre itself had it's national service and point of pride: the crown itself. The archives. The mint. And beyond that, the culture. It's Cyre that celebrated the history of Galifar. They have the finest museums; the greatest bards and artists outside of House Phiarlan. Cyrans don't NEED to go to Rekkenmark to study war. That's what Karrns love, and there are Karrnathi soldiers wearing the uniform of Galifar guarding the gates of Metrol. There are Brelish spies reporting to the king. And there is an Aundairian minister of magic. All these people served Galifar, doing what their nation was best at. Some of the best of them served in Cyre, serving the needs of the government. But when their leaders rejected Mishann's claim, they went home.
Again, over time Cyre's wealth would allow it to overcome its handicaps. And in the immediate short term, it could field exceptional mercenary troops and more Cannith hardware than any other nation could afford. But it was a handicap it had to deal with. In my Eberron, of course.
Now, I read your other post, and you make good sense. What I think the divide is, is that I see the Aundair focusing a bit more on new spells and techniques, but Cyre being the place willing to fund your crazy alchemy/techy magic research that might not pan out for another 30 years, and thus benefiting from that research, just as science works IRL.
And what I'm saying is that's what Aundair had been DOING for centuries before the war even started. The Congress-trained wizards in Cyre when the war began were those trained to perform practical tasks, who had value away from the academic world... or administrators setting arcane policy. Whereas Aundair was the seat of research and experimentation - and they wouldn't suddenly stop that because of the war, even if they focused on the projects that were most promising. And where Cyre had more money at the time the war began, Aundair had centuries of Galifar's gold invested in its arcane infrastructure and resources. We're back to yellowcake uranium: You've got a crazy idea for a new project, and it's going to take a hundred pounds of ground Khyber dragonshards. In the middle of the war, it could take you years to acquire that, even with gold to spare; whereas Aundair had the dragonshard reserves of the kingdom, and it would simply be a question of whether they were willing to spend them on your project.
Again, I see Cyre as second to Aundair when it comes to arcane. For me, Aundair is first in research as well as sheer number of practical casters. But there's nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree.
Over the course of a century, it is very reasonable for a rich nation to build up research facilities.
Correct. Over the course of a century.Second, Cyre was the seat of Galifar's government. That means, to me, that they would have had more Citedel trained spies than any nation other than Breland, more Rekkenmark trained generals than anyone but Karrnath, and more Congress trained Mages than anyone but Aundair.
And I agree - but what I said above plays in reverse here. There would be more Aundair-trained mages in Cyre at the start of the war. There'd be more Rekkenmark trained generals there, because it's the seat of power. And yet, how many of those wizards were Cyran patriots? How many of those generals were actually Karrns, who would return to Karrnath as soon as Kaius made his plans?
The Citadel, Arcane Congress, and Rekkenmark were all national services. People from across Khorvaire would travel to study their arts. And yet, they are also the pride of their respective nations. Why travel to Aundair to study magic when I could learn the arts of war at Rekkenmark, as my father did before me? We don't need wizards; that's Aundairian work, and we've got an Aundairian wizard down the street doing the rituals that need to be done - at least, those that aren't already being done by Cannith, Kundarak, or the other commercial institutions.
Meanwhile, Cyre itself had it's national service and point of pride: the crown itself. The archives. The mint. And beyond that, the culture. It's Cyre that celebrated the history of Galifar. They have the finest museums; the greatest bards and artists outside of House Phiarlan. Cyrans don't NEED to go to Rekkenmark to study war. That's what Karrns love, and there are Karrnathi soldiers wearing the uniform of Galifar guarding the gates of Metrol. There are Brelish spies reporting to the king. And there is an Aundairian minister of magic. All these people served Galifar, doing what their nation was best at. Some of the best of them served in Cyre, serving the needs of the government. But when their leaders rejected Mishann's claim, they went home.
Again, over time Cyre's wealth would allow it to overcome its handicaps. And in the immediate short term, it could field exceptional mercenary troops and more Cannith hardware than any other nation could afford. But it was a handicap it had to deal with. In my Eberron, of course.Now, I read your other post, and you make good sense. What I think the divide is, is that I see the Aundair focusing a bit more on new spells and techniques, but Cyre being the place willing to fund your crazy alchemy/techy magic research that might not pan out for another 30 years, and thus benefiting from that research, just as science works IRL.
And what I'm saying is that's what Aundair had been DOING for centuries before the war even started. The Congress-trained wizards in Cyre when the war began were those trained to perform practical tasks, who had value away from the academic world... or administrators setting arcane policy. Whereas Aundair was the seat of research and experimentation - and they wouldn't suddenly stop that because of the war, even if they focused on the projects that were most promising. And where Cyre had more money at the time the war began, Aundair had centuries of Galifar's gold invested in its arcane infrastructure and resources. We're back to yellowcake uranium: You've got a crazy idea for a new project, and it's going to take a hundred pounds of ground Khyber dragonshards. In the middle of the war, it could take you years to acquire that, even with gold to spare; whereas Aundair had the dragonshard reserves of the kingdom, and it would simply be a question of whether they were willing to spend them on your project.
Again, I see Cyre as second to Aundair when it comes to arcane. For me, Aundair is first in research as well as sheer number of practical casters. But there's nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree.
What? Don't you know that it's morally reprehensible to agree to disagree? :P
Seriously, though, I get what you're saying. I also look at history and see the greatest advancement in science and technology almost always coming out of the places that are also most culturally advanced. I also don't think that Cyre would need to try to get the nuke. In other words, they might be researching things that don't require dragonshards. Lastly, I think that building up that research capability would take a very short amount of time.
In war, wartime science grows quickly. Almost frighteningly so. A nation that puts a large pool of resources into science during a war can become a tech powerhouse in just a few years. If we were talking about a 20 year war, I'd be more inclined to just look at what each nation was known for before the war broke out, but over a century, with Cyre still being rich at the end...money wins wars. IMO, what makes sense is to conclude that those institutions in other nations are the only reason that Cyre didn't dominate.
I also think that whatever knowledge and weapons Aundair had developed before the war, Cyre had. Not just knowledge of, but straight up had in their possession, ready to use. So I can see an arms race between the two nations. I should also make clear that the most high tech army isn't always the one with the best toys. Sometimes it's the one with the greatest proliferation of toys from among the best available. So, say Aundair often has a small but important lead on Cyre in new tech, but sometimes Cyran arcanists come up with new things Aundair hasn't thought of.
Who can afford to outfit large numbers of troops with these new toys?
Maybe Aundair has more mages with more advanced spell use, etc, but their soldiers have a lower level of tech, whereas Cyran soldiers, especially their specialists, have the best possible equipment.
That's a big part of how high tech an army is. The US military isn't as high tech as the level of tech that we've developed, for instance, because we don't arm our soldiers with the really high end stuff that often, due to cost. Japan's defense force, however, is the most high tech in the world on both fronts. The spend the money to outfit and train their guys with the best toys, and they have the shiniest robots. :P
I also see Cyre being possibly the only place in Khorvaire where arcanists are sitting down with tribal shamans and other "strange and foreign" magic users to expand their understanding of magic, as an aside.
In other words, they might be researching things that don't require dragonshards.
In my opinion, there's no such thing. Dragonshards are the fundamental component required for any sort of arcane magical item. As a side note, in 4E terms, residuum is simply the highest grade of dragonshard. Coming up with arcane magic that doesn't require dragonshards would be like, today, deciding out of the blue to come up with a light bulb that doesn't use electricity. Undoubtedly it could be done, but it would be as difficult as creating an entirely new system of technology.
In war, wartime science grows quickly. Almost frighteningly so. A nation that puts a large pool of resources into science during a war can become a tech powerhouse in just a few years.
We are entirely in agreement. This has always been one of the core ideas OF Eberron. If you check my HDWT blogs, one of my frustrations is that the setting as it stands doesn't go into enough detail about the advances that have occured over the past century and the forms of war magic that have been developed. What we're debating is the sorts of resources that are available. You're saying that Cyre can acheive this with gold alone - and Cyre had more GOLD than Aundair, to be sure. I'm saying that when you take that gold and convert it into its equivalent in net worth of the infrastructure and components used for magical research and production, Aundair is wealthier than Cyre... and that beyond that, you're dealing with a culture where magical education is considered a virtue, a nation that has spent generations locating and evaluating the potential of its manifest zones, where magic is part of daily life in a way it's not in Cyre. This is a nation that knows its strength is its knowledge, not its physical power or its gold. When it comes to war, it knows that it must out-think its enemies: that arcane knowledge is the only edge it has. Cyre had the gold and had far more people. It COULD buy mercenaries and Cannith tools. Aundair had knowledge, and it wasn't going to let that advantage go. Cyre could advance a great distance in 30 years - and in the meantime, Aundair would advance just as far. Magic is their one edge, and the one thing they COULD maintain, because again, it's the resource their nation possessed. They didn't have to spend as much gold to do so because they already had the resources they needed to work with. They couldn't buy mercenaries to match Cannith or suddenly produce an army with the discipline of Karrnath. But they had magic, and they could keep that edge.
I also think that whatever knowledge and weapons Aundair had developed before the war, Cyre had. Not just knowledge of, but straight up had in their possession, ready to use.
Weapons? Absolutely. So did Breland and Karrnath. Because Aundair made those weapons for Galifar. But knowledge? Never. Those weapons were made in Aundair and shipped to anyone who needed them. Cyre paid for those factories. It didn't need the knowledge of how to build them itself... and if it needed a magic item factory next door, Cannith is right there in Eston.
I should also make clear that the most high tech army isn't always the one with the best toys. Sometimes it's the one with the greatest proliferation of toys from among the best available.
Which may place us at arguing semantics. Again, looking specifically to Cannith, Cyre had the greatest amount of Cannith weaponry. No question. But in terms of unique tools and techniques, I just can't see gold alone being enough to get Cyre on par with Aundair, especially when they are also spending that gold on mercenaries, Cannith equipment and other dragonmarked services, and mundane fortifications, troops, and spies. Gold can only go so far, and when the general hears "There's Karrnathi troops massing to the north!" is her first response going to be "Hire everything Deneith and Cannith can spare" or "Take that same money and start investing it in wild alchemical programs that may pan out in thirty years!"
Again, over time? Sure. But Cyre had a lot of things to spend its money on that had clear and immediate practical value. Yes, Cannith tools are available to everyone. But if you can buy five times as many as anyone else, do you go ahead and do that, or do you take those funds and hope that somewhere down the road you might be able to come up with something better? In Aundair, their culture is based around the idea that you do - that superior magic is the single key to victory. Cyran culture wasn't based around that concept, and they had other options available. Again, if we're simply talking about quantity of high-quality arms, Cannith can do that - and the presence of Cannith IS a strength Cyre had. Which frankly, is yet another reason I'm inclined to think that as a Cyran ruler, I'd push it down the priority list. Cannith IS my research and development division. Again, I won't have a weapon you don't, but I'll likely have Cannith's breakthroughs first and I'll have more of them... and I'd sooner spend my money buying Cannith's successful projects than burn it on ideas that simply don't end up working and leave me with nothing.
sometimes Cyran arcanists come up with new things Aundair hasn't thought of.
Absolutely. So do Karrnathi and Brelish arcanists. Thrane clerics have techniques none of them can match. It's not a question of whether Aundair can do everything everyone else can; it's whether, overall, it had the most sophisticated techniques.
That's a big part of how high tech an army is. The US military isn't as high tech as the level of tech that we've developed, for instance, because we don't arm our soldiers with the really high end stuff that often, due to cost. Japan's defense force, however, is the most high tech in the world on both fronts. The spend the money to outfit and train their guys with the best toys, and they have the shiniest robots.
But from day one, I've been seeing Aundair as Japan in this analogy. They're certainly not the US. They don't have the manpower to match any other nation, even before you count Cyre's use of mercenaries - and they don't have the money to hire mercenaries. Their soldiers simply don't have the martial discipline to match Karrnath. The only edge they have is magic, and they know it. Thus they focus all their military efforts on making sure that they are bringing the most advanced magic to the field - and the fact that they are not only around today, but actually considering initiating a new war again speaks to just how significant that edge is. Again, the leader of the smallest nation actually thinks she could start the war again and win it... stop and think about that.
Obviously you have the fact that they didn't win before, which shows that their edge wasn't unbeatable. One of the points I'd put here is that I see them having a very tough rival in Thrane, because rather than having their arcane edge match up against a nation with an inferior version of their own techniques, their most aggressive rival was a nation using, essentially, an entirely different form of technology (IE divine magic). One question is whether Aurala thinks she's come up with an answer to that over the last four years. If Aundair's figured out a way to extinguish the Silver Flame, they could devastate Thrane... though in the process they'd unleash all the Overlords of the first age and devastate everything. Oops.
At the end of the day, this is something of a semantic point. We agree that Cannith's elite forces would have excellent equipment due to their wealth as a nation. We agree that they can lure experts from other nations, and that they can buy more hardware than others can afford. But I don't see them being close to Aundair when it comes to the cutting edge of research. Aundair has the infrastructure and a culture that has always considered arcane magic to be the single most powerful tool in the world... whereas for Cyre, it's a case of "Oh, we need to get some of that."
Their normal army also wasn't that large. It's entirely reasonable to think that they were better equiped. It doesn't take much to out-equip nations that have a fraction your wealth. As you said, they had the artificers, they had the cash, and tech, money and small numbers almost always leads to very well equipped, high tech military units. It also leads to very specialized units, rather than trying to have a strong infantry to field, for instance.
The idea that their regular troops couldn't stand up to the troops of other nations just...doesn't work, honestly. Mercs alone cannot explain 100 years of not getting overrun.
Re: naval power: it's reasonable to think that they would have privateers, as well, to disrupt the naval power and trade of other nations.
I also see the Cyran govt. funding R&D like crazy, and fielding new weapons before anyone else, so we agree on the cuttin edge thing.
I don't actually think Cyran troops were especially worse than Brelish or Aundarian soldiers, the stiff breeze was just humor. But their primary purpose was still defense, to my recollection. The mercs Cyre was hiring were Cyre's offensive edge, so outfitting their regular armies with the best of the best equipment wouldn't have been as much of a concern. Definitely would have been constantly innovating to try and grab some edge though, and I think they would have been able to get a leg up on Aundair here and there through sheer desperation. The history of Cyre in the Last War seems to be filled with examples of Cyre doing their best just to survive, barely anything about actually making real blows against the other nations. That desperation to come up with something, anything, could have been one of the most important factors in driving Cyran innovations, and may have very well led them to trying things the Aundarians either didn't think were worth attempting or didn't really think about at all.
And personally I think the other nations would be hiring privateers to prey on Cyre's merchant fleets. Cyre's biggest edge is its massive monetary advantage. Disrupt the flow of trade into Cyre's southern ports and you can start to choke off that advantage. Of course all the Nations were probably doing that to each other, but I think Cyre would be the hardest hit by a loss of sea-faring trade so they were likely the most targeted. Tying up their navy with pirates would also help keep them from using that as their own leverage.
Thus they focus all their military efforts on making sure that they are bringing the most advanced magic to the field - and the fact that they are not only around today, but actually considering initiating a new war again speaks to just how significant that edge is. Again, the leader of the smallest nation actually thinks she could start the war again and win it... stop and think about that.
I always thought that Aurala was blinded by her own ambition and being manipulated by one evil force or another. Outside castrophic Plot Nukes, which really any of the nations could be considering, I can't see Aundair taking any of the other nations without convincing them to surrender quickly. Like blitzkrieg, they move really fast and do a lot of damage but quickly over-extend themselves.
Actually, Aundair as Japan is an interesting example here if we take Breland as the US. Aundair can hit quick and devastate the Brelish forces, but if they don't force an end to the war in the first six months then they're going to be overwhelmed by sheer industrial power. And they have to do that to Thrane and Karrnath at the same time or be left open to attack.
I don't actually think Cyran troops were especially worse than Brelish or Aundarian soldiers, the stiff breeze was just humor.
Agreed. I'll point out that the main characters in the Dreaming Dark trilogy and Eye of the Wolf were Cyran soldiers, and The Fading Dream shows a Cyran special forces unit; all of them certainly account well for themselves. The point with mercenaries isn't that Cyran troops can't stand up on their own; it's "How did Cyre survive the first decade of the war?" By hiring every spare body they could.
Beyond this, I'll also point out that in my mind, the extensive use of mercenaries and warforged also speaks to the fact that as much as possible, the rulers of Cyre didn't want to throw their people onto the grindstone of the front lines. They didn't have a martial tradition like Karrnath; they valued culture, and among other things, they wanted to preserve that culture. IMO, the colleges of the arts were funded right to the end, because that's part of what defines Cyre - and if they surrender their identity to become an engine of war, what are they fighting for?
Definitely would have been constantly innovating to try and grab some edge though, and I think they would have been able to get a leg up on Aundair here and there through sheer desperation. The history of Cyre in the Last War seems to be filled with examples of Cyre doing their best just to survive, barely anything about actually making real blows against the other nations. That desperation to come up with something, anything, could have been one of the most important factors in driving Cyran innovations, and may have very well led them to trying things the Aundarians either didn't think were worth attempting or didn't really think about at all.
This I agree with. I dislike the image of Cyre having an established, reliable research and production pipeline that is on par with Aundair's capabilities. Again, Aundair has been refining its systems and techniques for centuries and was relying on arcane magic 100% for their wartime survival - whereas for Cyre, it's just one of the options they had to pursue (the others including numerical superiority, mercenary forces, purchasing mass quantities of materiel from Cannith and other houses, etc).
But to me, a strong part of the Cyran national character is exactly this: the determination to survive against the odds. You don't have the best magic, the oldest tradition of war, the most spies or paladins. What you have is your pride and the knowledge that alone of all the nations, you are in the right of this war - and that you will not let your achievements be lost. You will face impossible odds and somehow you will survive. The Cyran artificer jury-rigging something together that no-one's ever seen and that he'll never be able to replicate but is JUST ENOUGH to turn the tide is a very Cyran moment for me - more so that having the biggest fanciest workshop in the land. I see the Cyrans as always making sacrifices - for all their wealth, having to figure out how they can afford all the things they need to defend every front.
This is the spirit that sustains them today. They've lost everything. They've lost that wealth. But the gold isn't what defined them. It's the pride. The culture. And the determination to survive through any hardship that the Six send their way.
I always thought that Aurala was blinded by her own ambition and being manipulated by one evil force or another. Outside castrophic Plot Nukes, which really any of the nations could be considering, I can't see Aundair taking any of the other nations without convincing them to surrender quickly. Like blitzkrieg, they move really fast and do a lot of damage but quickly over-extend themselves.
Actually, Aundair as Japan is an interesting example here if we take Breland as the US. Aundair can hit quick and devastate the Brelish forces, but if they don't force an end to the war in the first six months then they're going to be overwhelmed by sheer industrial power. And they have to do that to Thrane and Karrnath at the same time or be left open to attack.
Agreed on all counts. My point is simply that is any nation has access to catastrophic plot nukes, Aundair is an excellent candidate because of its reliance on and constant evolution of arcane magic. Aurala could simply be a fool being manipulated by the quori, Lords of Dust, or someone else. Or she may have developed a magical weapon that truly changes the game... although if so, what are the consequences of using it?
Essentially, because of their reliance on unconventional weapons of war, the question of why Aurala thinks a new war can be won becomes an interesting one.
Hmm. I think I have another thread idea.....