Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Scrinoverlord Apr 29, 2011 22:58:53	One of my characters, a House Deneith heir with a dragonmark, wishes to rise as high as he can in the house, and eventually to patriarch if he can. My question is, how much power do the patriarchs have in the houses? Do they vary from house to house? Are some autocrats, while others are mere figureheads?
#2 Hellcow Apr 30, 2011 0:52:21	One of my characters, a House Deneith heir with a dragonmark, wishes to rise as high as he can in the house, and eventually to patriarch if he can. My question is, how much power do the patriarchs have in the houses? Do they vary from house to house? Are some autocrats, while others are mere figureheads? It certainly varies by house, as outlined in Dragonmarked (among other sources). Generally, Deneith is presented as a house with a strong heirarchy in which the patriach does shape its active policy. However, the patriarch has to answer to the Lords Seneschal, and while I don't think it's been specified in canon sources I would expect a military organization with as long and successful a history as Deneith to have a clear proceedure in place for removing a leader who is recognized as abusing his power or grossly failing in his duties. So I'd say his power is a reflection of the loyalty he inspires among his subordinates. If the people believe in his leadership. a Deneith Patriarch would have great authority in the house. He'd have to be REALLY bad to be removed - but if he's ineffective or unpopular, people lower on the totem poll might start listening to the viceroys they trust over the patriarch they don't.
#3 Hellcow Apr 30, 2011 0:52:23	One of my characters, a House Deneith heir with a dragonmark, wishes to rise as high as he can in the house, and eventually to patriarch if he can. My question is, how much power do the patriarchs have in the houses? Do they vary from house to house? Are some autocrats, while others are mere figureheads? It certainly varies by house, as outlined in Dragonmarked (among other sources). Generally, Deneith is presented as a house with a strong heirarchy in which the patriach does shape its active policy. However, the patriarch has to answer to the Lords Seneschal, and while I don't think it's been specified in canon sources I would expect a military organization with as long and successful a history as Deneith to have a clear proceedure in place for removing a leader who is recognized as abusing his power or grossly failing in his duties. So I'd say his power is a reflection of the loyalty he inspires among his subordinates. If the people believe in his leadership. a Deneith Patriarch would have great authority in the house. He'd have to be REALLY bad to be removed - but if he's ineffective or unpopular, people lower on the totem poll might start listening to the viceroys they trust over the patriarch they don't.
#4 focusgents May 02, 2011 10:53:41	Yeah, Dragonmarked, like all of the 3.5 Eberron books, is a great resource for stuff like this. The way I've always thought about House heads is that they are like American CEOs. This title can wildly vary when it comes to definition. CEOs can be innovators, stooges for the corporate board, ineffectual heirs, heirs looking to prove themselves, or any combination of those categories. And the structure of the House determines whether the CEO can change their circumstances. For instance, the Sivis matriarch has to deal with a lot of House politics, but the intrigue gives her a lot of room for personal power. On the other hand, the three Cannith heirs, while ambitious and in control of their own enclaves, are stymied by the split and aren't very effective. As always, my rule of thumb is to let the player and the story dictate the details. Why does he want to be House patriarch? Is it just a political power thing? Or maybe he wants a personal army? He understands that House heads rarely go above level 10, right? I'm saying this because down the line, having a demigod in charge of a mercenary force might be weird.
#5 Sturmvogel May 03, 2011 9:25:51	I admit, I honestly don't really know. I've never really gotten a true grasp on how powerful and influencial the houses in general seem to be. They seem to be WAY more powerful then even our current Mega Corporations in the real world, with them having actual legal status as their own psuedo nation states inside the actual nations... Then you work in their neutrality and playing nations against each other in the open and without reservation. It's a really alien concept to me. I guess my answer to the original question would simply be: Very! Big help I know. :P
#6 focusgents May 03, 2011 9:43:36	They seem to be WAY more powerful then even our current Mega Corporations in the real world, with them having actual legal status as their own pseudo nation states inside the actual nations I have to strongly disagree with your characterization. In an era where banks can foreclose without cause, phone companies track us at all times, labor is abused with reckless abandon, and companies can essentially buy elections, our corporations are stronger. The fact that the Houses have to finagle leases and can't legally own land or own armies (Blackwater, anyone?) is at least a boundary to their power. Society respects the houses, but won't allow explicit crossover into the avenues of power; if I'm remembering correctly, Aurala's consort had to drop his Vadalis title to be with her.  Maybe this is rosy glasses, but I don't see the Houses as anywhere near as abusive as our current real-world corporate climate.
#7 Sturmvogel May 03, 2011 10:07:24	Except for you know, Deneith ;) For as powerful as our real world corporations are, they are still far removed from the power level of our actual governments. When push comes to shove, the Corps have to listen to the government or lose the privledge of doing buisness in those nations, if not being outright taken over by said nations. It seems to be the other way around with the Houses and the Nations. You piss Sivis off, they turn off the 'phones' as it were and that is that. You do something Cannith doesn't like, well I guess your country isn't getting those state of the art weapons now. During the war, Cannith was selling arms to both sides, openly, and everyone just sorta had to take it. It would be like Lockheed selling planes to both sides in WW2, I can't even wrap my mind around how crazy that would be. I also don't understand how you fight a war like that either, where you can't really attack the enemies means of production, because it's also your means of production. Cut off those communication lines and your daming yourself too. Just seems like one giant pile of conflict of interests on both the Houses and the Nations parts.
#8 Madfox11 May 04, 2011 3:35:29	True, but the houses are not particularly united, and if the houses push their power too much it is going to get those nations united as well. The houses are still operated by people who live in various countries. They can be brought over to the national resources if push comes to shove. It is a precarious balance, no doubt about it, but the houses are nowere near as likely to push their wishes on government openly as a mega-cooperation would do in RL. What happens behind the curtains is a whole different matter ;)
#9 focusgents May 04, 2011 9:17:24	When push comes to shove, the Corps have to listen to the government or lose the privilege of doing business in those nations, if not being outright taken over by said nations. During the war, Cannith was selling arms to both sides, openly, and everyone just sorta had to take it. It would be like Lockheed selling planes to both sides in WW2, I can't even wrap my mind around how crazy that would be. Modern governments are way too afraid to push or shove when it comes to taking on corporate malfeasance, take a look at any of the banks or oil companies. Would Kundarak be allowed to collapse the Khorvar economy with faulty mortgage schemes? Also, our corporations almost govern themselves with the WTO and World Bank, bypassing many national laws. The Aurum and the Twelve are good analogies, but they're not as explicit. As for WW2, it's a bit of a false analogy, because multi-national corporations hadn't reached the kind of international presence they have today. I'm sure that Halliburton uses subsidiaries to sell arms to unfriendly nations, if not outright enemies. Meanwhile, the Houses have had over a thousand years to install themselves all over the continent.  I don't want argue simply for the sake of arguing, but I think underestimating corporations creates a disconnect in the story. While the fantasy world of Eberron is gray morality-wise, I don't think the Houses are more villainous than our RL corporations. Your point about a "giant pile of conflict of interests on both the Houses' and the Nations' parts" is fair, but I think it applies IRL also. All that being said, I agree with MadFox11 that the difference between public and private cooperation is important in the comparison.
#10 Sturmvogel May 04, 2011 15:13:41	I'm not saying the houses are more villanious, I'm just saying the amount of power and influence they have is mind boggling. Short of trying to chain gnomes to speaking stones at knife point, what could say Karnnath do to 'nationalize' thier speaking stone network for example. I guess the difference I'm trying to make is, our IRL governments don't have the balls or the will to really handle coorperations, to many easy bribes to be had or lobbyist dollars or whatever. The Khorvaire Nations have the gutso, but not the means. That puts the Houses on another level of power in my mind. Really, just the fact House Members aren't citizens of nations, but of their Houses, that alone puts them on another level. No one is a citizen of Microsoft to the best of my knowledge ;) I'm going on a tanget now though, which is pretty removed from the original question.
#11 Madfox11 May 05, 2011 3:38:19	Short of trying to chain gnomes to speaking stones at knife point, what could say Karnnath do to 'nationalize' thier speaking stone network for example. The gnome lives in Karnnath and the gnome is a person. He is loyal to the house, and I suspect dragonmarked members are regularly moved around to prevent them from forming a bond with the locals, but if push comes to shove I am not entirely sure the individual's loyalty to the house (except maybe for a core group) is high enough to survive an all-out confrontation between a House and a nation. Especially when a nation manages to convince a high ranking member of a House to join its interests. It is one of the reasons why some of the houses fractured during the war, both in between Houses and within the same House. Like I said, the balance is precarious at the moment, and the next war might very well be a Guildwar. It would certainly be in the interest of nefarious powers such as the Quori ;) Really, just the fact House Members aren't citizens of nations, but of their Houses, that alone puts them on another level. No one is a citizen of Microsoft to the best of my knowledge ;) I am not sure that is actually true. There are two Houses that seem to have a special law into place in regards to the local authorities. Deneith has their sentinels which legally can arrest wanted criminals over the whole continent. Ghalandra has a special status in their inns as a place of sanctuary not much unlike the Catholic church in RL Europe. As far as I know they are still citizens of one country or another (although I doubt the Talenta Plains bothers with it). I'm going on a tanget now though, which is pretty removed from the original question. Maybe, but it is an interesting subject...
#12 Sturmvogel May 05, 2011 20:37:37	I am not sure that is actually true. There are two Houses that seem to have a special law into place in regards to the local authorities. Deneith has their sentinels which legally can arrest wanted criminals over the whole continent. Ghalandra has a special status in their inns as a place of sanctuary not much unlike the Catholic church in RL Europe. As far as I know they are still citizens of one country or another (although I doubt the Talenta Plains bothers with it). I could've sworn I read that the actual members of the Houses (not their hirelings) are citizens of their houses, not nations, but I'll be damned if I can find it now so mabye I just dreamt the whole thing up. /shrug
#13 Hellcow May 12, 2011 11:28:27	Really, just the fact House Members aren't citizens of nations, but of their Houses, that alone puts them on another level. No one is a citizen of Microsoft to the best of my knowledge ;) I am not sure that is actually true. It's intentionally something of a gray area. Once upon a time, there was a kingdom called Galifar. Within that kingdom, there were 13 incredibly powerful merchant houses. Technically, these merchants lived in the kingdom and were thus bound by its laws; at the least, none of them felt comfortable challenging the king. Thus, they accepted the limitations of the Korth Edicts - which among other things, prevent a member of a dragonmarked house from holding a noble title. That fact right there should make clear that the houses have always been seen as pseudo-independent entities; there's no law that keeps a Brelish citizen from marrying a princess, but there is one that limits a Medani half-elf from doing it unless he renounces his tie to his house. Basically, the houses have always been bound by the LAWS of the kingdom; a Cannith artificer couldn't murder someone and say "You can't touch me, man, I'm Cannith." But it's also always been recognized that the first loyalty of that Cannith heir is to his family and not to the king, and that was the point of the Korth Edicts. Then Galifar fell apart... and the houses, for the most part, did not. The Korth Edicts worked because the houses couldn't challenge a united Galifar. But it remains to be seen if an individual nation has the power or will to enforce its desires on the houses. We've seen one example of this: The destruction of the creation forges. But Cannith is a splintered house that was devastated by the Mourning... and other houses have been building their power since then. So: the bulk of the members of the houses see house membership as more important than national identity, because their house is larger than any nation... and quite possibly more powerful than any nation. Beyond that, the house is their FAMILY. However, local law enforcement will still hold them to the Code of Galifar and such; when they are in Breland, they are bound by Brelish law (at least in theory). However, there certainly are Dragonmarked who have placed national loyalty over blood ties. Looking to, say, City of Towers, Lei is an example of a character who sees herself first and foremost as a Cannith heir with no particular attachment to Cyre or Breland... while Daine put his loyalty to Cyre ahead of his ties to Deneith, and left the house to join the Cyran military. but the shifting balance of power between the Dragonmarked and the Five Nations is something that I've always seen as a critical theme in Eberron.