I was thinking they could do something along the lines of disabling one of the Planar Seals in the Reaches, or somehow tinkering with one to do the opposite of what it's supposed to do, but I'm not sure if it makes sense for the Ashbound to do something like that. I welcome your input on the matter.
(I'm looking for an answer that would work regardless of what system is being used to run the game, if any. In other words, I'm looking for the answer from an in-game perspective.)
Controlling a gate to Lamannia is of great importance. Still, convincing Lycanthropes to actually join them sounds even more difficult to me. Why should they return to a world that hunted their to extinction? And what would Eberron offer them that Lamannia doesn't? It's been more than a century-most wouldn't have ever set foot on Eberron anyway. The Ashbound need to give them a good reason.
Am I correct in remembering that Greenheart is actually a manifest zone to Lamannia? So, when Lamannia is coterminous one could use Greenheart as the gate, correct? And the Planar Seals that the Gatekeepers are trying to maintain would not interfere at all?
Those maniacs...
Controlling a gate to Lamannia is of great importance. Still, convincing Lycanthropes to actually join them sounds even more difficult to me. Why should they return to a world that hunted their to extinction? And what would Eberron offer them that Lamannia doesn't? It's been more than a century-most wouldn't have ever set foot on Eberron anyway. The Ashbound need to give them a good reason.
And you're right about convincing the lycanthropes to join the Ashbound. Maybe they can explain the Last War and point to the horrors that arcane magic has wrought, such as the Mournland, and essentially convert the lycanthropes to their cause. Though they might be having a grand ol' time hunting in Lamannia, they were once people who lived in the Reaches and beyond and who will still care about the fate of their homes, their descendants, etc.
Also revenge.
Beyond that, one question is how you play lycanthropy. I personally hold to the 3/3.5E description that lycanthropic personalities are extreme... that there's a huge difference between an evil lycanthrope and an evil human. An evil human might just be selfish and greedy. An evil lycanthrope is a predator who enjoys preying on intelligent creatures. The problem with the Purge is that good lycanthropes were caught up in it - but really, no one smart wants evil strains of lycanthropy around. So THEY might be happy to come back purely on the basis that it would be more fun to prey on the innocent people of the Five Nations than wild creatures of Lamannia... but do you really WANT them around?
With that said, you already have a group of lycanthropes ON Eberron - the Dark Pack of Droaam. Living in Eberron, where the Silver Flame and such is still a part of their lives, vengeance is still something they'd love to have. The novel The Queen of Stone actually involves lycanthropes and includes a possible way to spread lycanthropy. So I'm just saying - you don't HAVE to go to Lamannia.
One question is lycanthropic lifespan. It's been well over a century since the Purge. If lycanthropy doesn't extend lifespan, no human or shifter based lycanthrope will have living memory of Eberron, which is going to make it much harder to convince them. Lamannia is a pretty good place for lycanthropes... do you care enough about this place you've never been but where people fear and hate you to go back there, when the last few generations of your family have lived a good life here?
Beyond that, one question is how you play lycanthropy. I personally hold to the 3/3.5E description that lycanthropic personalities are extreme... that there's a huge difference between an evil lycanthrope and an evil human. An evil human might just be selfish and greedy. An evil lycanthrope is a predator who enjoys preying on intelligent creatures. The problem with the Purge is that good lycanthropes were caught up in it - but really, no one smart wants evil strains of lycanthropy around. So THEY might be happy to come back purely on the basis that it would be more fun to prey on the innocent people of the Five Nations than wild creatures of Lamannia... but do you really WANT them around?
With that said, you already have a group of lycanthropes ON Eberron - the Dark Pack of Droaam. Living in Eberron, where the Silver Flame and such is still a part of their lives, vengeance is still something they'd love to have. The novel The Queen of Stone actually involves lycanthropes and includes a possible way to spread lycanthropy. So I'm just saying - you don't HAVE to go to Lamannia.
Thanks for your thoughts, Keith.
Maybe I should take a step back so that everyone understands where I am coming from.
I want to run a game that focuses on the politics within the Eldeen Reaches, within Aundair, and with each other. I thought a good spark to get the game going would be the Ashbound doing something extreme to bring back the Lycanthropes and trying to, say, push Vadalis out of the Reaches for good. Meanwhile, certain factions in Aundair would want to use this as an excuse to retake the Reaches, and a big complicated situation would develop that the players would be in the middle of.
If bringing the Lycanthropes that escaped the Purge back into the Reaches just doesn't make sense, then I'm looking for other suggestions for how to stir the pot between the Reaches and Aundair. Something big. Thanks!
Beyond that, my point is that if you're dealing with an evil-aligned strain of lycanthropy, they might well be interesting in coming back just for the chance to hunt humans. The point is that bringing them back might not be a smart idea. But there's no reason the Ashbound have to have the foresight to see that.
(Side point: Per my vision of the lycanthropic purge, the shifters didn't have any great love for lycanthropes either, as an evil lycanthrope takes pleasure in preying on other members of its root race... and that in fact some of the slaughter of shifters was triggered by shifter-wererats and the like intentionally misleading the templars to believe all shifters were evil, leading their enemies to see a foe where there were only innocents. So the shifters at least realized that not all lycanthropes WERE evil - but evil lycanthropes aren't good for anyone. This is why they rank high up on the SF "Hierarchy of Evil" - their behavior is motivated by a supernatural force, not simply the result of cultural leanings. They ARE evil by nature - like a demon. Which is not to say that an evil lycanthrope can't FIGHT that - but it's a completely different thing from orcs, humans, dragons, who essentially can choose their behavior. Lycanthropy does shape your personality on a primal level. But again, that's how I play in, taking guidance from the description of lycantrhopic alignment and behavior in the 3/3.5 MM.)
In addition to Keith's excellent suggestion(do youself a favour and read the Queen of Stone if you haven't already done so) I'd suggest that they might need a (although the term doesn't exist in Eberron) genetic engineer. Someone powerful enough and ruthless enough to research the Lycanthropic curse and attempt to recreate it. Thus, the ashbound might steal the lore needed from Mordaine the Fleshweaver, the Crimson Covenant(say, Malevanor) or even the daughters of Sora Kell. Will the PCs ally themselves with the vengeful party? How far will they trust them? As for the Ashbound, how will the decision of the sect's leader to use knowledge and means gained by what they are supposed to oppose be regarded?
I don't believe that the Ashbound can convert to their cause "the Lycanthropes" en masse. Besides, the curse of lycanthropy is not nearly as powerful as what it was during the purge.
The latter part is absolutely true, and it's why it wouldn't be absolutely insane to bring them back. As to the former, I don't think they could CONVERT lycanthropes to their cause... but if they're not to bright about it, they might be convinced that the lycanthropes have converted, when really they are looking for a way to get back and have access to more interesting prey.
This ties back to the previous note on the Greenheart. As a rule, manifest zones don't automatically become gateways when planes are coterminous. This is often true for Thelanis, but it's not a standard thing for most planes. Manifest zones are closer to their planes and thus a good place to create a gate, but you'd still require something else. So if the Ashbound come up with a way to bridge the gap, that is at least a bargaining tool for a pack that's intrigued at the idea of coming back and shedding some blood. Again, a desire for vengeance/bloodshed wouldn't be UNIVERSAL at all; many might not care. But it's certainly plausible that a pack or warren would find it entertaining. (And bear in mind that human/shifter based lycanthropes won't have living memory of the purge, but dwarf/elf lycanthropes might, as seen in QoS.)
I don't believe that the Ashbound can convert to their cause "the Lycanthropes" en masse. Besides, the curse of lycanthropy is not nearly as powerful as what it was during the purge.
The latter part is absolutely true, and it's why it wouldn't be absolutely insane to bring them back.
Then again, the whole idea might have been planted by eh...certain parties willing to cause such a disaster to take place
. EDIT: Is there any reason why, say, an existing manifest zone to Lamannia which happens to be within the radius of a Planar Seal couldn't be around somewhere, and by removing that Seal they could have access to a location that could be used to create a gate to Lamannia?
I had an idea for how they can make sure they are using the lycanthropes to their advantage, however: they bring back one or more lycanthropes who are (at least nominally) converted to their cause, and then they get those lycanthropes to afflict all of the Ashbound with lycanthropy. This may quickly spiral out of control, but in the short term, they are able to gain a vast amount of power with which they can accomplish their goals.
Again, does this make sense, from a large-scale story perspective?
I'm very interested in hearing suggestions for how the Ashbound could go about physically bringing lycanthropes into Eberron from Lamannia... Is there any reason why, say, an existing manifest zone to Lamannia which happens to be within the radius of a Planar Seal couldn't be around somewhere, and by removing that Seal they could have access to a location that could be used to create a gate to Lamannia?
Manifest zones take many different forms. Two manifest zones from two different planes can have completely different effects; it's simply the case that those effects in some way reflect the plane they touch. One manifest zone to Lamannia could simply encourage fertility in animals; anothe could be a source of primal magic; a third could cause vegeatation to grow to enormous size, or suffer from exceptionally violent storms. The following is from the Dreadhold article I wrote for Dragon back in the print days:
Pure Stone, Pure WaterThe island of Dreadhold lies within a manifest zone tied to Lamannia, a plane of primal nature and elemental forces. This planar connection has a number of important effects. The first is that any liquids, fruits, or vegetables brought onto the island are affected by purify food and drink. This effect is continuous: meat will decay, but stored vegetables will never rot and salt water brought in from the sea becomes pure and fresh. This also means that liquid-borne poisons are automatically neutralized when they are brought onto the island – though someone who has already been poisoned will not be cured by this effect.
In addition, items of wood and stone are strengthened. The hardness of these substances is increased by 10, and hit points per inch are doubled. The break DC of an object made from wood or stone is increased by 5. But this effect is more than just physical. Any attempt to directly harm a wood or stone object through use of magic – be it a fireball or stone to mud – must overcome a spell resistance of 35. Anyone who tries to pass through wood or stone – using teleportation, phase door, passwall, or similar effects – must also overcome this resistance. While this helps prevent break-ins or escapes, it also prevents the spellcasters of the prison from using teleportation themselves.
Elementals with the earth subtype and constructs made from wood or stone gain DR 5/adamantine; this stacks with any existing DR. This does not affect other living creatures, including living constructs.
Unlike Thelanis, Lamannia isn't noted as being an easy plane to get to, so it's not standard for manifest zones to serve as gateways. With that said, the Ashbound are druids. I don't see as it's terribly hard to do. All you need are two words: eldritch machine. In this case it's primal, but the principle is exactly the same. The Ashbound have come up with a combination of primal totems that when brought together at this particular manifest zone at this particular time allow them to open the gate. If you want to foreshadow it, have them successfully steal a few artifacts in early games. It may not even appear to be their main objective. "We stopped them from destroying the magebreeding facility... but one of them did run off with that piece of petrified oak. It had a magical aura, but we never figured out what it did."
This is exactly the sort of thing eldritch machines are for. As it doesn't connect to core rules - it's not a traditional "it takes an hour and 1,000 gp residuum" ritual - it can't be replicated once it's destroyed, unless of course it serves the needs of the campaign for that to be possible.
I had an idea for how they can make sure they are using the lycanthropes to their advantage, however: they bring back one or more lycanthropes who are (at least nominally) converted to their cause, and then they get those lycanthropes to afflict all of the Ashbound with lycanthropy. This may quickly spiral out of control, but in the short term, they are able to gain a vast amount of power with which they can accomplish their goals.
Again, does this make sense, from a large-scale story perspective?
It depends if you're concerned with canon or not. If not, sure. If you are... In this day and age, lycanthropes do not pass the affliction. In 3.5, I believe natural lycanthropes can spread it and afflicted lycanthropes cannot - so you could have a few naturals come from Lamannia and strpead it, but it wouldn't go out of control. In 4E, lycanthropes don't infect at all. They pass diseases like moon fever, but not true lycanthropy.
By canon, the explanation for this is that the Purge was galvanized by a dramatic increase in the potency of the curse, which both caused more extreme and aggressive behavior on the part of the lycanthropes and allowed afflicted lycanthropes to spread it. The CotSF holds that lycanthropy is connected to an Overlord of the First Age*, and that the more lycanthropes - good or evil - in the world, the stronger the influence of this demon grows, and in return, the more dangerous the curse. This is why they still persecute lycanthropes whether the strain is good or evil; aside from the fact that it is a psychological transformation that essentially destroys the original person, even a good lycanthrope is drop in the bucket that could lead to the flood that they fought in the Purge. The point of the Purge was that it could have been handled better, that innocents were lost - but that if SOMEONE hadn't taken a stand, it would have been far, far worse. Innocents were being slaughtered, and if nothing had been done, the curse could have destroyed civilization as we know it.
Again, a big question is how strongly you hold to the 3.5 rules on the dramatic impact the curse has upon those it takes root in. As it stands, you're not just you with wolfy powers. An evil lycanthrope is ruthless, bloodthirsty predator. A good lycanthrope seeks to avoid civilization and large groups of people - again, becoming more primal and animalistic in nature, even if not predatory. Holding to this, the scenario I see is pretty simple. Your Ashbound think this is a good idea. They go to Lamannia, find, say, some evil wererats willing to bargain. Wererats may be predators, but their weapon is cunning as opposed to strength; IMO, it was wererats who sowed discord between the CotSF and the shifters. They see a chance for some fun and say "Of course! We're utterly devoted to your cause! Down Vadalis!" and arrange for some infections (presuming naturals can infect). Of course, once the Ashbound are transformed, they aren't the Ashbound they were before and THEY may no longer be quite so committed to the cause, instead becoming less discriminate killers. And if, somehow, you've got them able to infect others, sure, you have a great little wildfire on your hands.
Using a good-aligned strain takes this threat off the table; at that point the only reason it's a threat is if the number of lycanthropes in the world is an issue. But again, if you go with the idea that lycanthropic affliction has a powerful psychological transformative effect, it may actually end up backfiring the other way - the afflicted Ashbound may find that they just don't care as much about their crusade.
But as always, canon means little to a good story. If you want Ashbound who are afflcited but maintain their full faculties and motives, go for it. The main thing is that as it stands, the Purge occured for a reason. It WASN'T just an arbitrary decision to kill a bunch of beasties; they've never gone on a grand Purge of Trolls. It was an attempt to contain an outbreak that could have shattered the Five Nations. it ENDED as a witch hunt, when the power of the curse had been broken and Aundairian converts hungry for vengeance took out their rage on shfiters and the few lycanthropes who were left. but it began as a vicious, bloody struggle - more like 28 Days Later than The Crucible.
* Note that while it's canon that this belief is out there, we haven't said that it's RIGHT. It's also possible that different strains of lycanthropy have different sources. Some shifters say that the original lycanthropes - the good-aligned strains - were created by Olarune as a gift; and that the demon corrupted this to create the evil strains.
The lack of spread helped me greatly in my own home campaign. I never liked that aspect and it made it very difficult to use the monster (my first 3E came went out with a bang when 5 out of 6 PCs got infected - it was a great ending, but unplanned none the less). So I turned lycanthropy in two different types: natural, and magical. In my campaign natural lycanthropes are non-existent (right now I am not running an Eberron campaign). In Eberron they would be rare.
The magical version is more like a "demon" possession. A ritual caster summons a primal spirit, and binds with it to gain power. Basically it would be like a corruption of the ritual that initiates a druid. In a few rare cases humans living near a place with a thin planar barrier get infected natural, mostly when they are already consumed by anger and predatory instincts. The "curse" does not spread like lycanthropy of pre-4E. Most of the time it is self inflicted by ritual casters foolishly believing that they can control the primal spirit and gain a lot of power through it or by people so desperate that they risk it (e.g. village threatened by starfation in the middle of the winter). Of course, powerful casters could summon a spirit and inflict the condition on others, but it is much more difficult when the victim is not willing (at the very least being helpless during the whole ritual). Such an approach would work well with your story idea. You can allow the curse to spread, in fact, the Ashbound might even know the ritual them selves. At the same time you do not need to have the condition spread like a disease. The Ashbound druids simply kidnap commoners, perform the ritual and release them. In this case you will not need to do anything with planar gates, and you might actually pick persons to be infected by those hellbend on revenge against the Silver Flame due to recent slights.
Note: in case a PC is really interested in the ritual for their own use, simply treat it as multi-classing into a druid.
Especially in this case, when I basically just needed to be given permission to run the story that I want to run. For that, I am grateful. I had forgotten about the reason eldritch machines exist in the setting, and such an explanation is exactly what I was looking for. After all, the story isn't about how the Ashbound and the lycanthropes do what I want them to do, it's about the consequences of those actions, so I should focus on that.
I'm really glad you're so active on these boards.
While human and shifter lycanthropes from the time of the purge should be long dead, there may well be lycanthropic dwarves, elves, and gnomes with very vivid memories of these events. While the human-descended lycanthropes of Lammania probably don't care at all about Eberron (just as the Silver Flame doesn't really care about Lammania), the ancient survivors of the Purge might have the right incentives to come back.
Certainly. This is the case with Zaeurl, the leader of the Dark Pack of Droaam, who is an elf werewolf - and whose bitter memories of the Purge are brought up in The Queen of Stone. But I'd still note that when dealing with an evil stain of lycanthropy, you're playing with fire. They may have incentive to come back - but that doesn't mean that they will embrace YOUR cause, whether or not they say they will.
It's worth noting that the events of the Purge did shift 'thropic behavior to extremes. During the time of the Purge, evil 'thropes were pushed to the most vicious end of the spectrum of their behavior - driving the wave of terror that triggered the Purge. So while they may still hate the Silver Flame, the 'thrope survivors of that time also know that there was a madness upon them back then, which faded when they reached Lamannia. They know they could spread the curse (or blessing, depending where you stand) more easily back then. Some may have reveled in that madness and the pure primal joy of it, and may hope that a return to Eberron will bring that back; I'm just saying that if they have living memory of that time, they will also remember the fact that things were different then, and that may affect their motivation.
So, the group of PCs need to travel to Lammania and come back infected with Lycanthropy in order to spread the new strand in the Ashbound's Troops. Or they are accompagnying the volunteer in this task. Or they need to convince just one Lycan to come back.
Rekko
Here's another way to bring Lycans from Lammania back on Eberron. The reason why you don't want the Dark Pact or any other Lycan from Eberron is that Lycans from Lammania have evolved in a particular way that intrigues you, and which you might need.
So, the group of PCs need to travel to Lammania and come back infected with Lycanthropy in order to spread the new strand in the Ashbound's Troops. Or they are accompagnying the volunteer in this task. Or they need to convince just one Lycan to come back.
Rekko
Good thinking, Rekko! Thanks!