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| #1rauricFeb 27, 2009 7:58:37 | A pc of mine will be gaining an artifact that is a spear that is actually a coutal that gave its life to become the weapon. He touched it once back in 3E when he was an imp. This caused him lots of pain but he lived, but not unscarred. He had to switch bodies because it (the fragment soul of the coutal) was killing him, plus I was not running 4E so he chose a tiefling body. Every now and then his attacks have been dealing radiant damage instead of fire or psychic and he "feels" very unimplike (he is roleplaying this way). He heard about the Deva and wants to find the spear and reunite the soul of the coutal. He likes the Deva (antirakshasha) alot. He will become one when he gets the spear. It will happen in the middle of Stormehome most likely in front of many people. Silver fire will change him from tiefling to deva. He also has ideas about how to change the Church of the Silver Flame I think. The coutal may help him with ideas about this task. How will the majority of Khorvaire, Thrane and the Church view him if his actions are pure, his words make sense and he does not wish to change too much about the faith? I think the coutal might guide him to make the faith more secular and wish to cause a seperation between Cgurcg and State. It wishes the Church to focus on hunting evil and not trying to run a country (which can be the source of great evil. |
| #2ellorinFeb 27, 2009 8:57:39 | In my opinion? Not good at all. He essentially comes out of nowhere and actually demands that the Church of the Silver Flame actually complies to his thoughts . Uniting the soul of the Couatl should do wonders for his reputation, but he's no Keeper of the Flame. It's not as if being backed up by a single couatl means much for the average worshipper of the Silver Flame. In addition, after a century of war the theocracy of Thrane is as strong as ever-I can't see an outsider who suddenly appears and claims that, after all that has transpired, it should be abolished actually succeeding, couatl or no couatl(which isn't a creature I would consult on the "goodness" of the concept of a kingdom anyway). To sum up, even if the character will be respected as a hero, I'm afraid I do not expect much positive reaction by Thrane and the Church . if he actually wants to become a messianic figure, it will take an awful lot of work, assuming it would even succeed.P.S. I apologize for all that negativity...It's just what I would expect. |
| #3RedRiderFeb 27, 2009 9:36:58 | It's not as if being backed up by a single couatl means much for the average worshipper of the Silver Flame. Really? Bear in mind that couatl are not that common as most of them sacrificed themselves to form The Silver Flame. A common worshipper may know of their signifigance and, if they don't, knowledge of it's signifigance will likely spread soon. To the average worshipper a couatl is a once-in-a-lifetime sight. Even if there are thirteen thousand of them worldwide just one making an appearance in civilisation is a signifigant event. (Bear in mind there are possibly hundreds of thousands dragons in the world, but the sight of just one is magnificent to Joe Yokel.) How should the church react to a messiah figure? With enough skepticism, conservatism and hostility to make it an interesting challenge to your player but not so much as to make it hopeless. |
| #4ellorinFeb 27, 2009 10:20:44 | Really? Bear in mind that couatl are not that common as most of them sacrificed themselves to form The Silver Flame. A common worshipper may know of their signifigance and, if they don't, knowledge of it's signifigance will likely spread soon. Perhaps I expressed myself in a wrong way. I wholeheartedly agree. It's a wondrous event and these creatures to the average worshipper are the paragon of heroic sacrifice and the backbone of the Flame. What I meant was that, when it actually comes to actually promoting changes to their church, I wouldn't expect the word of a single couatl to amount to much effect. When it comes to religious doctrine I would expect the official policy of the church, backed by the Keeper of the Flame herself and the council of cardinals to trump the couatl's opinions. For example, I wouldn't expect the OP's couatl's claims that the church and the state should be divided to actually influence the views of the average citizen of Thrane. The couatl is an angelic crature to be honoured and admired. It doesn't seem to me that it would be necessarily be treated as an authority, especially in wordly matters. |
| #5rauricFeb 27, 2009 18:21:59 | I don't mind constructive criticism and I don't find it negative. I think you are right for the most part. The Church itself may not be loving the new guy, but the people may be a different subject. Wasn't Aundair big with the Flame before the war? Perhaps this new iconic figure that is linked to a coutal and the Silver Flame will ignite a new belief in the Flame, and spawn the beginnings of ANOTHER Church dedicated to it philosophies but centered in Aundair. Bwahaha. It is kind of like the Eastern and Western Catholic Church. Anyway critique this idea please and off me options. I have ideas but I love hearing from you guys. |
| #6PJammaGodFeb 27, 2009 21:45:33 | If I were to sum up my response to the OP's question in one word it would be thus: BADLY. The church is still very young and in my mind very adolescent. It's still full of the classic adolescent signs of ridiculous bravado and total insecurity. It's not sure what to really do in the modern age and even as early as the beginnings of the Last War was still trying to levy "crusades" against people that disagreed with it's doctrine. Now you have someone claiming to be a messiah-like figure step in and say "chill everybody, be nice to one another". I'm trying to think of another religious figure who tried something similar, a chap from Nazareth. We all know how well that went down... It's more than likely that this "messiah" will be branded an anti-keeper and probably burned at the stake. Even if Tira Miron as the Voice of the Flame were to agree with the messiahs teachings, you'll likely find her words supressed or expunged by the Diet of Cardinals as they desperately seek to hold onto their tenuous power and stop the Messiah from stripping them of their office and holdings. I have faith in the lay people of the Silver Flame, but not in the higher ups. As the old saying goes, "the higher you go up, the thinner the air" |
| #7AvonRekaesFeb 27, 2009 22:38:23 | I generally agree with this. Jaela Daran could be screaming her tiny little head off at the Diet. "LISTEN TO HIM! HE SPEAKS THE TRUTH! ABANDON THE THEOCRACY!" But the Cardinals will not listen. It could be that Krozen makes a grab for power once the rest of the cardinals start not liking Jaela's proclimations and they try and brand Jaela an anti-Keeper. They might've found a way to limit her power as if she wasn't in Flamekeep to more easily control her. Then the messianic PC will have to rescue her, and bring her words (and therefore the Voice of the Flame) to the common people. This would probably be a good high-paragon/low-epic adventure. Also, I think Ellorin is underestimating the importance of one couatl's voice. I'm not entirely sure that the common folk know what a couatl is. However, every lay member of the faith should know the religion's origin. THey should know the story of Tira Miron, who was given visions by a "rainbow-feathered serpent". They should know that this one, singular rainbow-feathered serpent joined with Tira Miron to form the font of silver fire at Flamekeep to bind the fiend that rose from Khbyer. To the common lay-worshiper, one singular couatl might be able to make a real, permanent manifestation of the Silver Flame. That kind of back-up is very much of a big deal. So big a deal that some Cardinals, despite their temporal power, might side with the PC and Jaela, but are ultimately "taken care of" in one way or another by the rest of the power-hungry Diet. (Maybe one escapes to find the messianic PC to tell him that Jaela needs saving.) |
| #8leowulfFeb 28, 2009 3:30:14 | Short answer: crucify him, same as always. :p Really though, it is entirely up to you as DM. Where do you want the story to head from that point? What does your player want to happen to his character? There are a lot of cool plot hooks that such an event would hold. One is the reaction not of the CSF but of the other religions of Korvaire. What would the Blood of Vol think about another super-good being like this running amok? What would the Lords of Dust think and what would they do? What place does this hold in the Draconic Prophecy? Mechanically, if the event would make this person an "Ecclesiarch" I would have him take the feat of that name to represent his new status. His Ecclesiarch feat would have nice effects, and you could augment them as with story-based benefits as you see fit. If he wants the story to be more centered on his mission, then have him take Negotiator or Persuasive as his next feat, to represent the help the Coatl is giving him as he spreads his good news, and let him take the Evangelist prestige class. Or you could combine these two ideas, letting him first become an Evangelist and then after his fame gets around (and he goes up 3 more levels) letting him become an Ecclesiarch. At that point, there could be two distinct branches of the CSF, the theocracy based in Flamekeep and the itinerant faithful that follow the Devic Way (or "Rainbow Path" or whatever you or he want it to be called). |
| #9rauricFeb 28, 2009 8:11:10 | I know what I may do but I like hearing different opinions. The group was framed for the regicide of the Prince of Cyre recently and had to leave Khorvaire. Now they are back and they have actually been exonerated of the crime (they had help from ploitical allies) and since news had them travleing to Aundair the Monarchy wanted to use their current fame to their advantage. So with all of the fanfare of their entrance into Stormhome a terrorist attack by Eldeen seperatists occurs, the pcs help out and people are save, even a Royal Eye masquerading (being a decoy) as the Queen. After that the pc comes into contact with the spear. He transforms in front of all the people, royalty, and newspapers. I am thinking that the Monarchy will try to use this to their advantage even if it means promoting the faith of the Silver Flame. |
| #10HellcowMar 01, 2009 1:34:26 | Personally, if the PC is truly aligned with the Flame, then I think they WOULD have the support of Jaela. She IS attuned to the Flame and seeks to be a moderate voice, and to hold the church on the righteous path. So whatever happens with other followers, I think she would do what she could to help. However, in thinking of how others would act, I'd look to history... specifically, Melysse Miron, the false Keeper of the Flame. She appeared, seemingly possessed of powers of the Flame, spoke convincingly, and proved to be a servant fo the Shadow within the Flame. I think you'd have followers of the Pure Flame concluding that this stranger is another trick of that shadow, sent to confuse and mislead. Meanwhile, those intrested in secular power would obviously see the character as a threat. Short form: There is legitimate reason and precedent for people TO fear that this is a trick, even without getting into politics. However, I do believe that JAELA would know the truth and do what she could to aid the character... even if she had to be secretive in her support in order to keep the church from tearing itself apart. |
| #11rauricMar 01, 2009 7:36:06 | Many things will happen. There is a disillusioned ex-bishop (still cleric though) of the Flame in Aundair who is going to take advantage of this incident. The newspapers will be there so they will be spreading news if this incident worldwide soon. The governmnet was present at the pcs arrival because they wished to use the groups fame and abilities for their own good, also because the BBEGs have a few spies in Court and they want to manipulate the pcs away from their activities instead of fight them outright. The ex-bishop was disgusted with the War and felt like the Church should have tried for peace sooner. He left the Church a few years before the Wars end and lives in Aundair with family. He has a small little clergy in his town and believes in the chief tenant of the faith, destroy supernatural evils of the world. The polticians and royals will try and spin this event to their benefit. THey will try and cozy up to the pcs promote the group as being a pro-Aundair adventuring group, possibly a pro-Flame one also. They will also be tryin g to show people that being blessed by the "Flame" is not something that can only happen in Thrane. Some in the government will try to create another Church of the Silver Flame from this situation and other will try and have this pc pushed aside or "removed" since the Lords of Dust are leery on anything related to the Flame. If the 2nd Church does occur I can see many followers who chafe under the government controlled faith in Thrane head to the "secular" one that is forming in Aundair. In the end it would be a secular version of the Church as long as the pcs involved. The politicians may try and control it 100% but this will be difficult task. The PC might like the idea of a Church forming around his ideas. I think he may be all for killing supernatural evils more than anything. He also is a smart player and will have a decent wis and will realize he will not be able to just waltz into Thrane and try and change things. So I can see him trying to start another movement in Aundair and maybe Breland if possible. His main goal though is to fight rakshashas, rajahs, and Lords of Dust. Those seem to be his main enemies at the moment. I can see him not likeing the Church of Thranes top holy leaders. He was an imp after all. He probably heard stories about other devils making deals with church officials for their own ends or even for the greater good. He probably knows the hypocracy that can be found in any formal church. I think the Keeper of the Flame would be interested in this character and the Diet of Cardinals will possibly fear him. They are at heart politicians themselves. Perhaps they would rather try and sway him to their side rather than create propaganda about him. I am sure many of them will be using spells to see what may happen in the future due to his "arrival". If they decide that he is a threat I do not see them openly attacking him because this may actually make a martyr out of the pc. That would be worse than having him be alive because then Aundair can really do whatever they want with his name and the power it may bring. I feel like the Keeper would try and meet with him if possible or get word to him through magical means. She may convince him to spread the faith but not form another Church. Anyway lots of bad things are going to start happening im Aundair and Droaam in my campaign. The Cult of Tiamat has about 4 plots that are all going off at the same time. These plots are about releasing Tiamat, gaining power in as many nations as possible and/or forming an Aspect of Tiamat to help their Cult. Part of the plan is to have the dragons under it's control clash openly with the dragons of Argonesson which will help free Tiamat.They wish to incite Zenobaal's wrath by leaking word to the dragons that the Cult plans on taking over key spots in each nation that contain aspects of the Prophecy. They have learned about the dragons "tendencies" and hope he can talk other dragons into openly attacking the Cult and its dragons. The Cult has sway over some power groups in Droaam already. Yes the Daughters are powerful but so are the beings the cult has under its sway. Plus the Cult is providing dragons. This will be happening in many other nations including Dargunn and Q'Barra. Droaam and Aundair will be the first to be affected though. Since the pcs are in Aundair they may be able to thwart the cults attempt but Droaam will be in trouble. So with all that nasitness happening hte pc might not have to worry about being manipulated by nations or assassination, he may just too busy saving the world. We shall see. The campaign is not going to be a railroad, and the players do not live in a vacuum, things happen even if they are not following certain Hooks. |
| #12HellcowMar 01, 2009 14:24:09 | How will the majority of Khorvaire, Thrane and the Church view him if his actions are pure, his words make sense and he does not wish to change too much about the faith? Again, to me this issue is Jaela. She is a true vessel of the Flame - she IS a messiah. If this imp is as well, I would expect her to be aware of it. And with the level of power she possesses in Flamekeep, it shouldn't be difficult for her to contact him; Sending is a low-level ritual, and if he's truly touched by the Flame, I'd consider that to be enough for her to "know" him. But I think she would encourage him to be careful, lest he destroy the church in trying to change it. Again, Jaela herself is a true vessel of the Flame and has taken the church in a moderate direction since her ascension. She despises the corruption within the church and those around her who put political power before the needs of the people; she is concerned with the will of the Flame, not personal power. But she can't simply wave her hand and eliminate those things. Even doing something like getting rid of Krozen would cause massive upheaval (and potentially have her branded as another Melysse Miron) and harm more innocents than it helped. She IS working to change the church - but she's trying to do it in a way that will help those who need its aid, instead of acting with brute force. Meanwhile, Krozen and those like him are extremely well-established and well-connected, and have influence and resources throughout the church. So again, if it was MY game, I'd expect Jaela to contact him through sending and tell him to be cautious lest he destroy the church in trying to save it. Again, if he's truly a vessel of the Flame, I would expect her to see him as an ally, and more than that, one capable of effecting change in a way she might not be able to. I'd see her as offering advice and possible courses of action... but nonetheless, urging him to be cautious and NOT turn the church against itself. There's nothing she can do if he doesn't listen - but I'd at least expect her to warn him of what might come, so if there IS trouble later, you've got that "We did say this was a possibility" factor. Beyond that, ESPECIALLY if he's opposing the Lords of Dust, and especially because we're talking about the Silver Flame... I'd raise the serious question of how absolutely certain he is that he's following the right course of action and that his spirit is pure. If his actions DO have the potential of splitting and breaking the church - and I think they certainly do - then I have to question if this is the work of the Flame at all, or if in fact it's a servant of the Shadow Within The Flame. Is he POSITIVE it's a couatl, or is it simply a being assuming its form? The Lords of Dust are among the cleverest and most cunning beings in Eberron, and their own knowledge of the Prophecy lets them plan far in advance; tricking a champion who opposes them into destroying one of the greatest threats to their plans. If the imp has dealt with them before, I'd want to make him at least THINK about this as an issue. Again, if he KNOWS the history of the Silver Flame, if he's fought the Lords of Dust, it should at least be a concern; how can he be CERTAIN this force he's dealing with is truly what it says? It may be exactly what it appears to be... but I'd personally want to make him think about his actions and their possible consequences... and if he does just act rashly and throw the church into chaos, to have that potentially be exactly what was planned. And again, to me, that's EXACTLY what the Shadow In The Flame is about. There's a few people who knowingly choose an evil path, but its true power is the ability to decive those who truly believe in the Flame and its cause and to trick them into doing evil. To me, this would also address the fact that there are many powers within the Lords of Dust... that even if the PCs are primarily dealing with Tiamat and even if she is the primary threat to the world, the Shadow Within The Flame should not be forgotten. But all this is just what I'd do in MY game... nothing wrong with taking a different path! |
| #13HellcowMar 01, 2009 14:41:43 | If he does take things public, I think you would definitely have forces in the church that would come to support him. Consider a number of factors:
Again, my main thing would be highlighting that Jaela is actually trying to affect positive change, but that it's not a simple thing to do without causing chaos and harming innocents... and that such an upheaval might actually aid the Lords of Dust. The character may have the power to change the world for the better - but he also has the power to do irreparable harm if he acts rashly and fails to understand what has shaped the church as it is. |
| #14rauricMar 01, 2009 16:44:35 | When the PCs found the spear they were told they needed it to fight the Cult. At the time they were being played by the dragon that was pulling their strings. The kobold in the group was supposed to be the one to handle the item (it resizes) but the pcs were too busy fighting some rakshashas so the imp grabbed it and pulled in from the mound it was in. The spear was actually binding a powerful Hellfire Wyrm (3e) deep in Khyber. The dragon knew this but saw that the Draconic Prophecy called for the spear to be used against Tiamat or an aspect of her at some point in the near future so he did not mind freeing the beast if it meant that his goal was being fulfilled. The spear has the ability to actually bind a fiend into Khyber and to stop a rakshasha's reincarnation cycle if the spear kills it. The pc knows all of the above info, even that the dragon played him. He and many others are part of an experiment that the dragon began that implanted another soul in each pc (and other npcs) thus makeing them gestalt (3E). In 4E they get a free multiclass starter feat and the group telepathy power they had. The experiment has done something else to them all, it lets them view the Prophecy in a way that not even dragons or fiends can comprehend. They also cannot be scried and seeking divine aid cannot help determine what the PCs may do. There are ancient dragon temples spread out across the world that depict the pcs adventures and what they may do but this is not written in stone (well it is but ya know what I mean). Zenobaal is a player in this mess as well. He could not find a way to kill the groups patron because he was smart enough to always be in the company of others so he reavealed to the Conclave that Synge allowed adventurers to discover an artifact (the spear) that was binding an enemy of the dragons and allowed them to take it freeing a lieutenant of Tiamat. This was enough to have the dragon incarcerated. Synge's knowledge of the Prophecy is great though and his resources are vast so they feared ending his life at this point in time. The Cult is after those dragon temples because of something in them that can be used as a weapon. Zenobaal wants to protect them because of the Prophecy knowledge that can be found in each place. It is quite a large mess for the pcs. |
| #15JohnLynchMar 01, 2009 17:59:39 | Thanks for posting this, and thanks for your thoughts on this Hellcow. Although I'm not sure if this person qualifies as a messiah for the Silver Flame. Did this couatl sacrifice his life separately from those that created the Silver Flame? If so, he could simply be an outsider who has his own opinions on what his fellow couatl have done. That could make Jalea not quite as friendly towards this player as the Silver Flame may disagree with his opinions. I've written up a similar campaign idea inspired by one of Keith's blog posts. Here's a brief outline here: Show A leader in Aundair has been attracting followers as he claims to be the true voice of the Silver Flame. The players are asked by Jalea to investigate his claims and see whether he's a fraud, a crackpot or being mislead by the Shadow of the FLame. Upon investigating and breaking into his home, they'll discover he has an apparent manifestation of the Silver Flame. He'll announce this manifestation to his followers and say that Jalea has lost touch with the Silver Flame and isn't listening to its voice any longer. But that he has listened and the organised church has lost its way, concentrating more on human matters then destroying evil. He will then say there is evil among them and point to the players and say the evil is there. Suddenly behind the players an elf transforms into a rakshasa before burning and dying. He'll then say on the next day a mighty ritual will be performed before he sends his followers out to combat evil wherever it is. This ritual, will result in everyone who helps in it becoming a firesoul genasi (this is also how I'm introducing genasi to the game). Each person will be handed 2 ritual scrolls. One will focus their abilities to create a new manifestation of the Silver Flame. The other will allow everyone who performs the ritual (which has to happen near a manifestation) to once more become firesoul genasi. This is an attempt to spread the followers of the Silver Flame so that eventually they can take over Thrane. If the players report all this back to Jalea, she'll say thankyou for your information and that she must meditate. Unknown to everyone Jalea hasn't heard anything from the Silver Flame for months, and so she's unsure on how to treat this new messiah. It could be he truly does hear the voice of the Silver Flame. Or it could be he doesn't. |
| #16rauricMar 01, 2009 18:27:04 | I don't forsee the PC trying to conspire against the Church itself right off the bat. He probably won't go against an 11 year old girl. Even as an imp he was not a total scumbag. When they entered a Daask sin den (think Hostel meets Third House on the Left) and they looked upon the attrocities that were going on there the imp wanted them all to burn. This was before the spear incident so he was just acting with his own soul and conscience. Perhaps it was the soul that placed in him by the dragon, whatever it was it made him do the right thing more often than not. The group began as being heartless mercs and now are turning into heros. I am kind of pyched. Running a game of mercs gets boring. |
| #17PJammaGodMar 02, 2009 1:06:15 | Just pray it doesn't go to their heads :P . Nothing like some ex-merc belligerant players to have the Korranberg Chronicle post an expose on their "dark and sordid past". Oh wait, I sense a distubance in the (plot-hook) Force... :D |
| #18spectralphoenixMar 02, 2009 7:27:36 | Does the spear really give the PC authority over the Church of the Silver Flame? The spear is, presumably, a Couatl, but it's not the Silver Flame or even a representative of the SF. It's just a couatl that has its own ideas on how things should be run. As Hellcow pointed out, the SF already has a messiah - if the SF wanted to rework the power structure, Jaela would be on that all the time. He might qualify for sainthood or something like it (and probably then only if he toes the party line,) but if Jaela hasn't been trying to do this (or she has and the Diet's been ignoring her,) then I don't see why they'd listen to the PC. If you want to make religious reform part of your campaign, maybe Jaela could give them quests discreetly? Perhaps the spear business basically makes the PC a saint, and thus able to get his foot in the door where others can't while simultaneously proving his trustworthiness. If the SF has been telling Jaela to make changes, she might need an agent who can uncover early SF texts, find evidence of wrongdoing by various cardinals, and do other stuff that she can't. |
| #19rauricMar 02, 2009 10:24:25 | Sometimes Messiahs type beings don't want the role, it is thrust on them. He gets a change of heart, is surrounded by sliver flame here and there and fights supernatural evils. Because of what he is and what he does another organized Church of the Silver Flame is founded. They plan to be a less political version of the Thrane based Church. This is not entirely possible though. Even if the pc does not feel like he is a messiah that does not mean the people will think otherwise especially if the newspaper/media spins it that way. In a lot of ways it is not really his choice. Truth is not important in Eberron's faiths, belief is the most important thing IMO. At this point the current Keeper may be the "messiah" but in many ways she is just a figurehead and pretty much a prisoner of the cardinals at this point. The Pcs just left Stormreach after saving it from becoming a necropolis. They could leave Aundair to further the Flames cause there but the troubles that are about to pop up in Aundair are probably too dire for the pcs to split. |
| #20HellcowMar 02, 2009 12:38:57 | At this point the current Keeper may be the "messiah" but in many ways she is just a figurehead and pretty much a prisoner of the cardinals at this point. You may just be speaking about your campaign, but I certainly don't feel that this is the case in the setting as a whole. Jaela's ability to affect radical change may be limited, but I still feel that she has considerable influence over the church. Among other things, just because a FEW of the cardinals are bad apples doesn't mean that they all are, and I believe that most of the cardinals consider her the ultimate authority and follow her lead. Certainly I feel that the common worshipper of Thrane will do so - again, if she called on the people to rise against Krozen, the majority of them would; it's just that some wouldn't, that he'd call her another anti-keeper, and it would become a civil war that would harm innocents, which she doesn't want. But she's hardly powerless; she simply can't affect that change in a brute force manner without causing more harm than she'd like, so she's working subtly (which is where she makes a good patron for PCs, because they can help her accomplish things others wouldn't). But again, the key to me is that the COMMON worshipper cares about Jaela, not about Krozen. Krozen may have political influence and connections, but the farmer and the typical templar care about Jaela's words - so there is that balance between them. Jaela HAS sucessfully toned down some of the zealotry that rose during the Last War, and as a result Thrane is a much more moderate country today; as I mentioned before (and as will be called out a little more clearly in the next ECS, IIRC), it's actually Aundair where you find the most zealous and violent members of the faith. Beyond that, I believe she's the highest-level human divine caster in the setting, which counts for something. She's incapable of just waving her hand and solving all the problems of the church. But she HAS already affected positive change and is continuing to do so, and the common people - and even many of the cardinals - care about her words. Again, the fact that there ARE corrupt priests in the church doesn't mean that they are ALL corrupt, or even that there's more corruption among SF priest than those of the SH or BOV. The corrupt priests may not heed her words, but those true to the faith will. Of course, a valid question is whether the character has any connection to the Voice of the Silver Flame. Tira Miron was guided by a couatl, but the key was that she was in direct contact with the Silver Flame itself, and became the Voice through which it could communicate with humanity. As others have said, the couatl are essentially angels of the Flame, but nothing more than that; a single couatl isn't earth-shatteringly important if it doesn't actually represent the Flame itself. Jaela is connected to the Voice and personally chosen by the Flame itself - so again, if we're dueling messiahs, having a couatl on your side is good, but it's not the Flame. |
| #21rauricMar 02, 2009 14:03:58 | In my thinking it does not matter what supernatural creature is on your side as much as the political influence, and "media" backing you may have. These things can spur the people to follow someone as if they were a messiah. Like you said the Keeper cannot do anything flamboyant but she can do little things to help the Church and people. The pc can do alot more visible things though, and many of them may be flamboyant. Traveling the countryside protecting the weak and combating evil is pretty good PR for a hero or someone others want to be a Messiah. Anyway the story so far is that after the event and the publicity many of those zealots you mentioned start to get ideas about this new figure (the pc). Backed with some folks in the government they really want to sell the pc as something very special for the faith of the Silver Flame, and they want to keep him in Aundair. We shall see what he has to say about any of it. Hell he might just say "sod off" to the whole Silver Flame thing, and just slay monsters. That still doesn't mean the powers that be won't try and use his image for their own personal gain. The player is a WOD fan so me might like the whole politics side of EBs governments, religions and royals. We shall see. Thanks for your words so far everyone ;). |
| #22HellcowMar 02, 2009 17:00:02 | Like you said the Keeper cannot do anything flamboyant... Just to clarify, I said that the Keeper COULD do something flamboyant but likely wouldn't because it would have disastrous consequences for the church. She could summon a host of angels to smite Krozen in the heart of Flamekeep if she chose to do so. But in the long run, that flamboyant action would do more harm than good. Nonetheless. I will note again that she is the highest level divine caster in the public eye, and that as such she can - and in my opinion does - perform miracles that impress the common follower. This shouldn't have any impact on YOUR story; I'm just saying that IMO, the Keeper is an important and influential figure. She is not influential enough to single-handedly undo centuries of corruption. But when you consider that she's only held her office for a short time, I feel that she has been a positive influence on Church and Thrane alike... and that she would welcome an ally in her subtle struggle to turn the tide. This also raises the point of corruption in religion in general. Many people are of the opinion that the CotSF has a monopoly on religious corruption or is more corrupt than other faiths. As I said above, I don't see this as the case. I think there's lots of corrupt SH priests out there, such as Maru Sakhesh. The Blood of Vol is riddled with severe corruption, all the way up to Erandis Vol (who abuses the faith of her followers for personal gain). The thing about the SF is that its monolithic nature and its goals mean that it's actively trying to FIGHT the corruption within its ranks... while there's no similar effort being made to police priests of the Sovereign Host. Jaela wants to improve the situation, and has been working to do so - and again, I see this as an excellent patron-PC relationship. Jaela's problem isn't that she has no media backing... it's that she has too much. She's in the middle of the spotlight, and a small action could snowball... and it's important to her NOT to tear apart the church or harm innocents in her efforts to cleanse it. Again, this doesn't necessarily have an impact on your story - I'm just taking the opportunity to share my thoughts about the faith. |
| #23rauricMar 03, 2009 7:37:29 | I believe the Keeper is important also. She is one of the main Epic Npcs in the world (at least in her temple). LIke you said she could do some crazy stuff but she dares not, she is like the Pres of the US at this point (seriously). The PC at this moment can do things that make him look very proactive. He is not active in politics and does not have to worry about the welfare of a flock or a nation. His actions may be well documented and even embellished by others in politics and the media (if it sells papers). So last night the PC entered Stormhome and save the "Queen" (she was a Royal Eye decoy wearing a Hat of Disguise) from a terrorist attack by the Eldeen Reach. Word leaked out that he and his group would be showing up. At this point were were found not guilty of the regicide charges, but they di not know this, they were going to go to Throneport and show up to the trial in person. After saving the Queen/Agent with all of the people and media around the current keeper of the spear appears and gives it to him in front of everyone. **BOOM** big spectacle. Now he is a deva. He is confused, (the pc not the player) but the Queen/Agent offers the group rooms and sanctuary. The last thing the "press" sees is the deva walking off with the "Queen" and her men to their place in town. So the story shall start unfolding from there. The pc wants to find someone that was captured by the Cult as he and his comrades were trying to find him to give him the spear. So the next arc will be about them going through Aundair to find the Cult HQ. |