How would you handle the internal conflict? Diplomacy has failed, time and time again. It has become pointless to talk and its now time for action.
Then there's the Dreaming Dark and the Shadow in the Flame to think about, so yeah, lots of possibilities.
A different tack would be convincing Jaela that secular power has hurt the mission of the church, as the mighty Hellcow hinted at. It has done this two ways. When the government is a church, government corruption becomes church corruption. It also makes missionary work more challenging. With the church in power, converting to the Silver Flame is akin to converting to Thranism, which I imagine would be unpopular among Thrane's current and former enemies.
I think the second idea is better for setting up a showdown with Krozen. When Jaela announces the church will be turning the government back over to the crown, the high cardinal goes off the deep end and refuses to give up his kingdom. The PCs are forced to fight through hordes of Krozen loyalists before they finally get to off him.
I think the second idea is better for setting up a showdown with Krozen. When Jaela announces the church will be turning the government back over to the crown, the high cardinal goes off the deep end and refuses to give up his kingdom. The PCs are forced to fight through hordes of Krozen loyalists before they finally get to off him.
I do think this is interesting. Honestly, I think that it's the kind of thing Jaela MIGHT do. If you want to get extra wacky, Krozen could return Melysse Miron from Dreadhold and work a deal with her, denouncing Jaela and proclaiming Melysse to be the true Keeper of the Flame. Driven from Flamekeep, Jaela's powers would be much reduced... meaning that she'd need the help of a bold band of heroes to expose the treachery and restore the balance.
And yes, the point that having the church so closely tied to the political entity of Thrane can make missionary work difficult is a good one - because the goals of the faith itself go beyond any political boundaries. So again, I could see Jaela seeking to dissolve the theocratic to return focus to the church.
Of course, an interesting question is whether Jaela would support Diani, or whether she'd want to have something else replace the theocracy. Perhaps the Voice of the Flame has told her that one of the PCs is destined to be the new ruler of Thrane. Which is a great way to throw PCs into really hot water...
With the churches reputation already being less than perfect, it wouldn't be impossible to convince outsiders that the church is becoming a bigger threat and needs to be removed.
Maybe its not even Diani who initiated the movement against the church. Maybe it was a war profiteer or another outside source manipulating her into action, like Ellorin said. Maybe its the dreaming dark, or the Rakshasa or another group who will gain from a conflict.
I'd need to have a mastermind behind the scenes pulling the strings because I can't see Diani risking injury to her people without good reason and even less chance of her partaking in anything underhanded. It would also be a nice touch to once again have her as a figurehead with little to no power or influence in the actual events that happen.
It could make for a nice twist, where in the beginning she supports the conflict on minor levels but in the end she understands that she's being used and switches sides. It then becomes Diani AND the church trying to stop the outside power which by then is strong enough to threaten the nation. It could end up with her having a dialog with Jaela and Thrane becoming stronger in the end, which translates to thrane becoming a bigger threat to those looking in from the outside. (Karrnath, Darguun and Droaam for instance)
[edit] I need some info on the shadow in the flame. I do not have any of the novels and I only have the 4e players guide to eberron. I have all the 3e eberron gaming books. Is there anything about the shadow in the flame in any of my books? If not can I get a little bit of info on it?
What is the shadow in the flame (more detail than just "its a rajah" would be great!)
When did it enter the flame?
How did it enter the flame?
What events lead to its freedom before joining with the flame?
What are the consequences of it being in the flame?
thanks for any and all replies.
Personally, if I was doing it, I'd have people turn on the church only to have this result in the release of Bel Shalor - and people having to turn back to the TRUE path of the Flame (perhaps rallying around someone following the Sublime Flame ED) to bind the overlord once more.
The thing to me is that people get caught up in the mistakes the church has made, but it's important to remember that it's very different from our world. Eberron is a world in which supernatural evil is a very real threat. It's a place where psychic lobster assassins are watching your dreams, where horrors from beyond time and space are lurking just below your feet, where an army of undead is lingering to the east and a nation of monsters lies to the west. Anyone around you could be a demon, a doppelganger, a vampire, or a dragon. The concept of a witch hunt becomes quite different if there really are hidden witches and they really are killing people. So I'd love to see a game in which everyone turns on the Church of the Silver Flame only to remember - too late - that it was founded for a very good reason, namely to hold an indestructable evil at bay. Hopefully this would end with a stronger church restored to its core values... or Thrane as a dark and terrible place under the thrall of Bel Shalor, with the shadow spreading further across Khorvaire with each day.
First, i would take into consideration that unlike the BOV's heavy influence in Karnnath, CotSF does not make use of publicly questionable things such as undead, and indeed a positive influence in the national community. This makes going against the church itself an unwise move in winning over the support of the populace, needed to cement your claim to power after the reshuffling of the power structure.
I think that a more likely scenario that smearing the church itself would be for Diani to instead embrace the church as an ally of the throne, and direct the smear campaign against specific members such as the council. This would prevent the church from losing face to it's worshippers and angering them. Diani's best inroad to co-opting the church would be through the lolipope. Convince the Lolipope that there are those in the church who are tarnishing it's good works and you have a powerful ally, even if lolipope were to just be a figurehead. The populace themselves will listen to the lolipope more than they listen to the other high members of the church.
I would have the party trying to uncover evidence of deceitfulness, secret pacts with evil by higher members, and trying to get this evidence to the lolipope herself on Diani's behalf.
On the other side of the coin, I'd have the members of council trying to keep the church's power trying to expose the machinations of Diani, try to paint her as being tainted, or considering her throne more important to her than the goodwill of the citizens. Perhaps the some members of the church know that deep in the catacombs, there is a Werewolf pack that maintains the infectious curse kept sealed since the purge for study and to try and reverse the curse. A more aggressive member of the church might make a bargain with the werewolf to exchange it's freedom under exile so that it may infect Diani, and allow the church to openly target/expose a resurgent threat. This would put a party working for Diani in a defensive measure, trying to protect Diani on the run, or even find a cure if she is infected before it can become permanent.
As a side possibility, the most overzealous and unstable followers of the Flame are the Followers of the Pure Flame, who are actually centered in Aundair. You might be able to use that in some way. Essentially, the faith isn't restricted to Thrane. National tensions are high due to the war, not to mention the Thaliost situation. The Puritans themselves don't like the theocratic government. So if they take some sort of action against Thrane, it could be an opportunity for Diani (perhaps supported by the followers of the Whispering Flame) to capitalize on people's distrust and resentment of the Aundairians and demand new leadership that will take action against them.
But I'm just free-associating.
The question I'd have to answer to my satisfaction before embarking on a Thrannish civil war campaign would be, how big can the internal conflict get and how long can it last before Thrane's neighbors get involved and the Next War starts up?
Absolutely no argument there. And it would surely up the pressure on Kaius to act - and potentially be the breaking point between him and ambitious warlords if he won't. Of course, some might fear that such a renewed conflict will bring about a second Mourning... and hey, perhaps it will.
To answer the OP question, your players can probably be involved in the civil war from either the Church's side (Krozen) or the monarchists' side (Diani). Diani can probably be funding the people destablizing the Church in places like Thaliost, while Krozen and other officials are working to cut off their funding at the source (and get enough evidence to put Diani on trial). Behind it all, the real threat is slowly pulling the strings until the pattern comes together...
As for the other nations, if Aundair has the chance to take back Thaliost they will without hesitation (I think), while using the Royal Eyes to keep things stirred up to their advantage. Breland and King Boranel might be more concerned about how followers of the Flame inside his own border would react if civil war were to break out (whether followers among his own nobles would push him to back the Church over the monarchists, for example); I could see him sending in Dark Lanterns or other Citadel-allied folks to guage the situation. In Karrnath, the civil war could be the sign of weakness the warlords are waiting for to launch a surprise attack and conquer Thrane; how Kaius will react is anyone's guess.
Heroic tier - Players approached to work for either the Church or Diani's monarchist supporters. If working for the Church, they're asked to investigate and stop uprisings in Thaliost or other border cities, and discover they're being egged on by Diani's supporters funded by Aundairan spies. If working for Diani, they're asked to join the freedom fighters and stop atrocities by the Archbishop of Thaliost or other Church crackdowns on people who want the government in the "rightful hands". The tier culminates in Diani being put on trial with Keeper Jaela presiding as judge; depending on how the trial goes, the Keeper could decide to turn over control of the government to Diani, or order her banished from the kingdom. Either way, the entire crisis has provided Krozen enough time to consolidate his own forces and declare (surprise!) Melysse Miron the true Keeper, and the players outlaws.
Paragon tier - The players begin on the run, with either Diani's forces supporting them or Jaela's supporters hiding them (depending on who they worked with). They now have to work to clear their name, while at the same time trying to stop Krozen and Miron's efforts to enflame (/rimshot) members of the Church in other nations to try and destroy the other governments, putting the False Keeper on the throne of Galifar. The tier culminates in a confrontation against Krozen and his forces at Flamekeep, with a similar battle between the True and False Keepers in the background; during the battle, Miron succeeds in releasing her master Bel Shalor, and Flamekeep is destroyed in a shadowy eruption.
Epic tier - The players must now fight Bel Shalor's spread across Khorvaire, and with Jaela's help rally the disheartened followers of the Flame. The party winds up following the path Tira Miron herself took, gathering old relics and new allies for the final confrontation with the Shadow in the Flame (if none of the players choose the epic destiny associated with the Flame, Jaela herself might make a good candidate). At the end of the tier, the players and their allies battle Bel Shalor in the ruins of Flamekeep, sealing the Overlord and creating a new Church of the Silver Flame and new government, either of which could possibly be run by the characters.
"Psychic lobster assassins are watching your dreams" is an awesome line.
To be fair, I was inspired (uh oh) by this thread. Inyssius gives an excellent defense of the motives of the Ashbound...
But their perspective is kind of understandable. Karrnath is full of undead things, and the Blood of Vol is spreading. Cyre got ****ing nuked, and it broke the Feywild, and no one knows who did it or if it's getting worse or what triggered it (probably magic of some sort, though). The Underdark is a living thing, and it wants to kill you. The war has been going on for a hundred years, and it's been conducted with the heavy aid of arcane magic. Thrane is controlled by the Silver Flame, and many non-druidic divine characters will still attack shifters on sight, and the shifters (the Ashbound are full of shifters) still remember how their ancestors were pretty much all killed by the Silver Flame in a successful ****ing werewolf Holocaust. Across the ocean, Sarlona is controlled by malevolent psionic alien dream lobster assassins and they are watching your dreams even now. Across a different ocean, an ancient civilization of giants destroyed their entire continent with arcane magic to the point where their continent is in chunks and many giants are still barely even sentient. And so on.
Gah... now I want to play in a game where that happens. Need to stop having ideas that I can't use...
Great ideas all around, here!Krozen's side could then attempt to retain legitimacy by declaring Jaela invalid and substituting a new Keeper (at which point you get the 'two popes' situation that existed during a large chunk of the European Renaissance).
I don't know if you're familiar with her story, but there were two Keepers for a time in Eberron. Melysse Miron - a self-proclaimed descendant of Tira - appeared and challenged the Keeper of the time, and built up a following before she was denounced as being a servant of the Shadow in the Flame, sent to Dreadhold, and petrified. But hey - what if she was in fact innocent, and it was the OTHER Keeper who was the false idol? What if every Keeper ever since then has been a servant of the darkness, while the soul of the true Keeper is trapped in stone?
I can see a ready source of politically acceptable royalist troops for Queen Diani: Southern Aundair. If you recall The Forge of War, the whole of Southern Aundair (south of a line extending from the tip of the Aundair River, through the Duskwood and all the way to Lake Galifar) is actually occupied territory that formerly belonged to Thrane. This is probably a very populous and fertile area, and includes, notably, Arcanix, Passage, Galt and Lathleer. Its conquest started early (895 CY) and went on for most of the war. (As an aside, I don't really understand why such a fuss is made out of Thaliost when Southern Aundair should be a far larger issue.)
In your campaign, this area could be a bed of unrest, populated by descendants of Thrane citizens who refused to leave after the conquest, Aundair settlers, and Eldeen refugees who remained loyal to Aundair.
Queen Aurala might unofficially "encourage" the Thrane loyalists to support Queen Diani if it meant getting them out of Southern Aundair. Plus, sticking it to the Silver Flame Theocracy at very little risk to herself has to be a nice bonus. When Thrane ceased to be a monarchy, it is very plausible that no one in the extended Wynarn family was amused. They might have been enemies, but they likely beleived in their sacred right to rule. Look at how easy it was to rally the whole of Europe against Napoleon: a dangerous form of government that does not acknowledge the nobility's god-given right to rule the plebs? Can't have that...
Between Thrane Royalists both in Thrane and Southern Aundair and the Silver Flame faithfuls who oppose the temporal power of the Church, Queen Diani might have enough troops to support a significant rebellion.
Interesting thread on the political situation of the heartlands of the old Kingdom. I'll contribute something that might help solve the "too little manpower for a loyalist uprising" problem.
I can see a ready source of politically acceptable royalist troops for Queen Diani: Southern Aundair. If you recall The Forge of War, the whole of Southern Aundair (south of a line extending from the tip of the Aundair River, through the Duskwood and all the way to Lake Galifar) is actually occupied territory that formerly belonged to Thrane. This is probably a very populous and fertile area, and includes, notably, Arcanix, Passage, Galt and Lathleer. Its conquest started early (895 CY) and went on for most of the war. (As an aside, I don't really understand why such a fuss is made out of Thaliost when Southern Aundair should be a far larger issue.)
In your campaign, this area could be a bed of unrest, populated by descendants of Thrane citizens who refused to leave after the conquest, Aundair settlers, and Eldeen refugees who remained loyal to Aundair.
Queen Aurala might unofficially "encourage" the Thrane loyalists to support Queen Diani if it meant getting them out of Southern Aundair. Plus, sticking it to the Silver Flame Theocracy at very little risk to herself has to be a nice bonus. When Thrane ceased to be a monarchy, it is very plausible that no one in the extended Wynarn family was amused. They might have been enemies, but they likely beleived in their sacred right to rule. Look at how easy it was to rally the whole of Europe against Napoleon: a dangerous form of government that does not acknowledge the nobility's god-given right to rule the plebs? Can't have that...
Between Thrane Royalists both in Thrane and Southern Aundair and the Silver Flame faithfuls who oppose the temporal power of the Church, Queen Diani might have enough troops to support a significant rebellion.
This would have to be a very careful manuever by Aundair. Sure you might temporarily convince the thrane loyalists to leave your territory, but after the dust settles, they will want to come back to what they consider as thier lands. If Aundair moved infantry in to prevent thier return, you now have a displaced population already resentful at your nation, even more resentful. This could quite easily start back up the war between Aundair and Thrane over these people's treatment. These displaced people gotten rid of as a useful ally to Diani now becomes a guerilla movement against Aundair while beseeching Thrane to mobilize it's forces and help them retake thier homes.
I think even the Lolipope would choose a military action in this case to help these people.
When Thrane ceased to be a monarchy, it is very plausible that no one in the extended Wynarn family was amused. They might have been enemies, but they likely beleived in their sacred right to rule.
I doubt any foreign members of the family were thrilled by the news, all the more so because it was something actually demanded by the common people. If one looks to page 101 of the ECG, the commoners rebelled against Prince Daslin, with the situation stabilizing when cardinals and Keeper stepped in to fill the void. This is likely a source of inspiration for the antimonarchy party in modern Breland, and as such an obvious source of concern for the aristocracy. But it is worth noting that it was something the majority of the common people demanded; there were always those who opposed it, but the church didn't force its rule upon the masses.
Aside from this, you have the fact that prior to the theocracy, the nobility of Thrane was actually quite devout. When he turned on Mishann, Thalin of Thrane hoped to spread the faith of the Flame across a Galifar united by his rule. Diani may not be a loyal follower, but there are likely other members of the Wynarn family in Thrane who are followers of the faith. They may believe that it's not the place of the cardinals to lead the nation... but they may still be loyal to the core precepts of the faith itself.
Essentially, when you're talking about the sacred right to rule, bear in mind that Thalin's faith WAS that of the Flame. He may have believes that a king should handle political affairs and the priest focus on the spiritual, but he still believed that the goals of the Flame were righteous.
This would have to be a very careful manuever by Aundair. Sure you might temporarily convince the thrane loyalists to leave your territory, but after the dust settles, they will want to come back to what they consider as thier lands. If Aundair moved infantry in to prevent thier return, you now have a displaced population already resentful at your nation, even more resentful. This could quite easily start back up the war between Aundair and Thrane over these people's treatment. These displaced people gotten rid of as a useful ally to Diani now becomes a guerilla movement against Aundair while beseeching Thrane to mobilize it's forces and help them retake thier homes.
I think even the Lolipope would choose a military action in this case to help these people.
No doubt that it could be a shortsighted move by Aundair, if the Royalists chose to return en masse to Southern Aundair after the whole thing. Queen Aurala would have to pitch this properly. Aurala might gamble that the Royalists might prefer staying in Thrane, in the country they helped "liberate". There's probably enough abandoned land: these places saw a lot of action in the war.
Could Queen Aurala be manipulated by behind-the-throne miscreants of ill counsel who have a vested interest in even more destabilization? Your world surely has plenty of those ;).
I doubt any foreign members of the family were thrilled by the news, all the more so because it was something actually demanded by the common people. If one looks to page 101 of the ECG, the commoners rebelled against Prince Daslin, with the situation stabilizing when cardinals and Keeper stepped in to fill the void. This is likely a source of inspiration for the antimonarchy party in modern Breland, and as such an obvious source of concern for the aristocracy. But it is worth noting that it was something the majority of the common people demanded; there were always those who opposed it, but the church didn't force its rule upon the masses.
Aside from this, you have the fact that prior to the theocracy, the nobility of Thrane was actually quite devout. When he turned on Mishann, Thalin of Thrane hoped to spread the faith of the Flame across a Galifar united by his rule. Diani may not be a loyal follower, but there are likely other members of the Wynarn family in Thrane who are followers of the faith. They may believe that it's not the place of the cardinals to lead the nation... but they may still be loyal to the core precepts of the faith itself.
Essentially, when you're talking about the sacred right to rule, bear in mind that Thalin's faith WAS that of the Flame. He may have believes that a king should handle political affairs and the priest focus on the spiritual, but he still believed that the goals of the Flame were righteous.
Ah, I should have said "hereditary", or "lawful" (by Galifar succession law) instead of "sacred" here. I was comparing too closely with the kings of Europe, who ruled with the divine sanction of the Catholic Church. This is not the Wynarns, at least until Thalin.
The way I play it, the Wynarns considered the deposition of Daslin just as disturbing as Thalin's zealotry, for all the reasons you just mentioned.
The way I play it, the Wynarns considered the deposition of Daslin just as disturbing as Thalin's zealotry, for all the reasons you just mentioned.
Certainly. I'm just saying that I could imagine SOME Thrane Wynarns who feel that the natural order needs to be restored but still share Thalin's belief in the righteous purpose of the Flame... simply that the land needs to be ruled by a king. So if Diani seeks to turn people completely against the faith, one option would be to introduce a third party, a noble who supports the church (perhaps even one divinely called as a paladin or avenger!) but who believes that it has overstepped its bounds and fallen to corruption as a result. Someone who would challenge both Diani and Krozen as having strayed from the true path... but might even get the support of the Keeper.
Of course, if it was MY game, that noble would be a PC. Heroic tier would involve acquiring allies and building his strength while Diani, Krozen, and others battle it out, with the deposed Keeper as an ally (it would actually be interesting to have someone PLAY a deposed Jaela as a cleric; after all, away from Flamekeep her powers aren't so overwhelming and she could simply be a PC rebuilding her connection to the Flame). Paragon tier would encompass the clash with these forces and claiming the Throne. From there it would be about seeking to truly cleanse the church; fulfilling its mission of protecting the world from supernatural evil (so, how do YOU handle it when the curse of lycanthropy grows in power again and we have a second lycanthropic surge in the west, smart guy?); and ultimately dealing with Bel Shalor when he escapes as a result of the actions paragon tier (perhaps even with Krozen returning as his servant, twisted by his fury towards the PC). The PC must find a way to channel Tira Miron herself, to reforge her sword, to find one of the last couatls... and so on.
Now I have to figure out how to run that...
(As an aside, I don't really understand why such a fuss is made out of Thaliost when Southern Aundair should be a far larger issue.)
Thaliost was the capital of Aundair before the Last War, and had given name to the nation that would become Aundair after Galifar's conquest. Looking at it pragmatically, what is now Southern Aundair may well be more valuable and important... but it doesn't have the place in the national mythos of either Thrane or Aundair that Thaliost has to Aundair.
Thaliost was the capital of Aundair before the Last War, and had given name to the nation that would become Aundair after Galifar's conquest. Looking at it pragmatically, what is now Southern Aundair may well be more valuable and important... but it doesn't have the place in the national mythos of either Thrane or Aundair that Thaliost has to Aundair.
Ah thanks, that justifies it plenty then. I don't know why, but that "detail" (Thaliost being the former capital) had escaped me. I always thought that Fairhaven had been the capital all along.
Thaliost was the capital of Aundair before the Last War.
This is technically true, but what you're implying (that it was the capital immediately before the war) isn't:
Before there was a Galifar, the human settlement that would eventually become Aundair grew up along the northwestern shore of Scions Sound, in the approximate location of modern-day Thaliost. In fact, that city carries the original name of the nation as a reminder of its beginnings. It wasn’t until later, as the nation spread to the west, that Fairhaven became its capital.
So Thaliost ceased to be the capital a significant period of time before Galifar. Of course, this doesn't mean it's any less important--indeed, it gives the potential for lots of interesting Balkans-style ethnic strife (c.f. Slobodan Milošević claiming Kosovo as the homeland of the Serbs half a millennium after it had stopped being predominantly Serb).
I don't know if you're familiar with her story, but there were two Keepers for a time in Eberron ...
Is this in a 3.5 source book or novel? It sounds interesting.
Is this in a 3.5 source book or novel? It sounds interesting.
It's in the Dreadhold article in Dragon 344.
It's in the Dreadhold article in Dragon 344.
I REALLY need to read my dragon magazines!
It's in the Dreadhold article in Dragon 344.
She's also mentioned on page 70 of Faiths of Eberron, although without level or class information. The Dreadhold article notes that she actually works in a similar manner to Jaela, though she is actually more powerful than Jaela; she's a cleric who gains additional power in Flamekeep, thus allowing her to back up her claims to be the true Keeper.
So maybe the false keeper in Dreadhold has been manipulating certain events the whole time, even Krozen?
By canon she's turned to stone, so if anything is manipulating Krozen, it's more likely to be Bel Shalor itself. The idea with Melysse Miron is that they were afraid to kill her because they believed that if they did, the Shadow in the Flame would take a new Keeper, just as happens with the true Keeper - so they petrified her, keeping her just barely alive. This is also the only reason she hasn't died of old age. But hey, that's just canon - you can certainly change it.
Maybe her followers figured out a way to get a mole into Dreadhold. That individual sneaks down to her, halts the petrification long enough to have a powwow with her. She performs rituals that are needed and offers advice to her followers on how to hassle the Church.