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Infernal Warlocks, Devils, and Eberron

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
malignant_narcissist
Jun 22, 2009 17:45:37 Hello, I recently picked up my copy of EPG, and was slightly dissapointed they did not include ideas for how classes fit in to the world.

My biggest question is Infernal Pact warlocks. Since actual devils take a back seat to Rakshasas and Quori, do devils still make a good flavour for the source, or would it be best to just move stuff around?

For that matter, what is the place of Devils in the setting?

And as an aside, how does the invoker differ from a cleric in an agnostic-themed world? The fluff just doesn't seem to mesh very well.

Thanks.
#2
bwcmd1
Jun 22, 2009 18:59:51 Wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit more in the ECG, but devils have always been somewhat sidelined in Eberron, being locked into endless war with the demons and angels on the plane of Shavarath. However, nothing states that the Infernal Pact requires you to actually meet a demon/devil to make the deal, nor that those specifically have to be the entities you use. Certainly you can make deals with the Rakshasas for power (but they're even less trustworthy than devils!), and the Rajahs beneath the earth are near-godly beings that make excellent sources for patrons. Of course, you have to also determine how your character views their power--according to a couple of posts by HellCow, one of his PCs viewed his powers as leeching away from the Rajah, almost compelling him to use his magic to decrease the power of the Rajah.
#3
angelus_obscura
Jun 22, 2009 21:04:03 Here is a list of pact sources for Eberron (IMO) ...

Dark = The Umbra or the Dragon Below
Fey = Thelanis or Oalian (the awakened tree druid)
Infernal = Rakshasas and their Rajahs
Star = Xoriat/Daelkyr
Vestige = Dal Quor and the Dreaming Dark
#4
ellorin
Jun 23, 2009 6:33:29
Vestige = Dal Quor and the Dreaming Dark

Really? I always thought that Star and Fey are most appropriate for the dreams and nightmares of Dal Quor.
#5
rauric
Jun 23, 2009 7:25:14 I like to think of Vestige as making pact with "Ancestors". The elves and goblins might have the most of these type of warlocks. I also ignore alot of fluff from the classes so I barely read the fluff from the Vesige Pact but it seems like you make a deal with a powerful being from the past that actually lived once. So this screams Ancestor to me.

I think most Infernal locks make pacts with Devils living on Fernia or Shavrath and not Rajah's. I think I would have the truely evil ones make pacts with the Rajah's.

As for invoker as I sadi above I ignore fluff and that works out nicely for me. Invokers are divine casters that throw around more BOOM power than clerics. Perhaps they are worshippers of the faith but do not follow the formal religious ways. At the end of the day it is just fluff and not that important. 3E trained me to ignore the hell out of fluff and that helps me to this day.
#6
Alas
Jun 23, 2009 7:59:36 Vestige would be a neat interpretation of the Aerenal/Valenar ancestor worship, too.

As for the infernal pact, a couple quick ideas leap to mind:
The warlock could have discovered/inherited enough lore from the fallen ancients of Ohr Kaluun in Sarlona, who were known to have trafficked in such things. Bit obscure for a Khorvairan, but full of plot potential.
The warlock could actually be a member of the Gatekeeper sect. Most Gatekeepers are druids, but it's possible that some members (possibly heretical, possibly just a subset) use their skills to "hack" the beings they keep sealed away. Think of it as "bleeding off" the excess power of their prisoners.

And as an aside, how does the invoker differ from a cleric in an agnostic-themed world? The fluff just doesn't seem to mesh very well.

Well, the invokers tend to mix their religion with a little more brimstone blastiness-- divine wrath, ancient covenants, that sort of thing. A cleric of the Silver Flame would talk up Tira Mirron and focus on community building. An invoker of the Silver Flame would rant about the couatls and focus on raining fire down on the wicked. A cleric says "follow me," an invoker says, "I told you so."

In my version of Eberron, an invoker would tend to focus on "big picture" philosophies. The entire Sovereign Host, rather than just Boldrei, or the entire Dark Six, rather than just the Shadow. Better yet, an invoker might have something to say about the whole pre-schism pantheon. The Draconic Prophecy would also be a good source for invoker covenants. If you have the older books and are familiar with the Cataclysm Mage, I'd present that prestige class as an invoker in 4th edition.

Even in an "agnostic-themed world," a world in which the gods are not manifest, there will be people for whom the gods' existence is not questionable. There are enough people like that to support a theocracy in Thrane, temples of the Host all across Khorvaire, and Khyber cults in every dark corner. The invoker PC happens to have powers that happen to match up with everybody's expectations of an emissary/prophet of the gods. But is the invoker an effect, or a cause? Proof of divinity, or a coincidental anomaly? Especially in a "fantasy noir" campaign, I think there's room for a character with some pretty conflicted feelings about faith.
#7
nthdegree256
Jun 23, 2009 9:33:23 Vestige Pact as a tie to Dal Quor is a really cool idea that hadn't occurred to me before! I'm going to repost (from memory, anyway) the idea I had for vestige pacts in Eberron a couple months ago...

The idea basically goes like this. Some great and powerful rajah was defeated near the end of the Age of Demons, but instead of being sealed away by the Binding Flame, he was essentially shattered. Of course, you can't truly kill a rajah, and the end result was that fragments of his essence and power were scattered across Eberron.

Individually, these fragments are devoid of much intelligence or raw power. However, they retained enough will to know their goal; to eventually reunite. And so, in order to have a continued effect upon the world and to have the opportunity to travel the globe in search of other fragments, these pieces began entering into pacts with humanoids, ones that they saw great potential in.

The plans of a rajah are far-reaching and may take millenia to unfold; such is the case with this one. An unexpected side effect of the ages each fragment spent traveling with a humanoid and helping them rise to greatness was that the fragment began to pick up elements of their hosts' personalities. By now, it's rare to find a fragment... well, at all, to be honest, but in particular one that doesn't refer to itself by name; Khaeleth, the fallen angel of Syriana that drew upon his fragment for sustenance even as he gave everything else away; Ugar, the hobgoblin warlord who rose to power suspiciously quickly and, according to legend, dissolved away into the Blade Desert; Xandor the Mad, a giant who used his fragment's power to retain some shred of sanity as he delved into the secrets of Xoriat; and so on.

By now, there are hundreds of these fragments drifting across the globe, echoing the personalities of the great warriors and creatures they helped rise to power; the greatest warlocks are capable of summoning the strength of many shards, each with a reflected will and history of its own. More than ever before, the fragments are affecting the flow of history and coming ever closer to rejoining. What will happen if two vestige pact warlocks meet each other? If a warlock gathers too many shards of his own? Did a shard make its pact with the warlock because it was desperate, or because it has some plan in mind for the chaos it can wreak through his actions?
#8
angelus_obscura
Jun 24, 2009 1:03:00
Really? I always thought that Star and Fey are most appropriate for the dreams and nightmares of Dal Quor.

Sure if you're going by the power types. Star and Fey pacts have the most psychic spells. I'm talking about themes, not mechanics. And the Quori aren't the only beings who can induce dreams. A Midsummer Night's Dream, hello.

Deathless ancestors make excellent sources for Vestige as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 malignant_narcissist Jun 22, 2009 17:45:37	Hello, I recently picked up my copy of EPG, and was slightly dissapointed they did not include ideas for how classes fit in to the world. My biggest question is Infernal Pact warlocks. Since actual devils take a back seat to Rakshasas and Quori, do devils still make a good flavour for the source, or would it be best to just move stuff around? For that matter, what is the place of Devils in the setting? And as an aside, how does the invoker differ from a cleric in an agnostic-themed world? The fluff just doesn't seem to mesh very well. Thanks.
#2 bwcmd1 Jun 22, 2009 18:59:51	Wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit more in the ECG, but devils have always been somewhat sidelined in Eberron, being locked into endless war with the demons and angels on the plane of Shavarath. However, nothing states that the Infernal Pact requires you to actually meet a demon/devil to make the deal, nor that those specifically have to be the entities you use. Certainly you can make deals with the Rakshasas for power (but they're even less trustworthy than devils!), and the Rajahs beneath the earth are near-godly beings that make excellent sources for patrons. Of course, you have to also determine how your character views their power--according to a couple of posts by HellCow, one of his PCs viewed his powers as leeching away from the Rajah, almost compelling him to use his magic to decrease the power of the Rajah.
#3 angelus_obscura Jun 22, 2009 21:04:03	Here is a list of pact sources for Eberron (IMO) ... Dark = The Umbra or the Dragon Below Fey = Thelanis or Oalian (the awakened tree druid) Infernal = Rakshasas and their Rajahs Star = Xoriat/Daelkyr Vestige = Dal Quor and the Dreaming Dark
#4 ellorin Jun 23, 2009 6:33:29	Vestige = Dal Quor and the Dreaming Dark Really? I always thought that Star and Fey are most appropriate for the dreams and nightmares of Dal Quor.
#5 rauric Jun 23, 2009 7:25:14	I like to think of Vestige as making pact with "Ancestors". The elves and goblins might have the most of these type of warlocks. I also ignore alot of fluff from the classes so I barely read the fluff from the Vesige Pact but it seems like you make a deal with a powerful being from the past that actually lived once. So this screams Ancestor to me. I think most Infernal locks make pacts with Devils living on Fernia or Shavrath and not Rajah's. I think I would have the truely evil ones make pacts with the Rajah's. As for invoker as I sadi above I ignore fluff and that works out nicely for me. Invokers are divine casters that throw around more BOOM power than clerics. Perhaps they are worshippers of the faith but do not follow the formal religious ways. At the end of the day it is just fluff and not that important. 3E trained me to ignore the hell out of fluff and that helps me to this day.
#6 Alas Jun 23, 2009 7:59:36	Vestige would be a neat interpretation of the Aerenal/Valenar ancestor worship, too. As for the infernal pact, a couple quick ideas leap to mind: The warlock could have discovered/inherited enough lore from the fallen ancients of Ohr Kaluun in Sarlona, who were known to have trafficked in such things. Bit obscure for a Khorvairan, but full of plot potential. The warlock could actually be a member of the Gatekeeper sect. Most Gatekeepers are druids, but it's possible that some members (possibly heretical, possibly just a subset) use their skills to "hack" the beings they keep sealed away. Think of it as "bleeding off" the excess power of their prisoners. And as an aside, how does the invoker differ from a cleric in an agnostic-themed world? The fluff just doesn't seem to mesh very well. Well, the invokers tend to mix their religion with a little more brimstone blastiness-- divine wrath, ancient covenants, that sort of thing. A cleric of the Silver Flame would talk up Tira Mirron and focus on community building. An invoker of the Silver Flame would rant about the couatls and focus on raining fire down on the wicked. A cleric says "follow me," an invoker says, "I told you so." In my version of Eberron, an invoker would tend to focus on "big picture" philosophies. The entire Sovereign Host, rather than just Boldrei, or the entire Dark Six, rather than just the Shadow. Better yet, an invoker might have something to say about the whole pre-schism pantheon. The Draconic Prophecy would also be a good source for invoker covenants. If you have the older books and are familiar with the Cataclysm Mage, I'd present that prestige class as an invoker in 4th edition. Even in an "agnostic-themed world," a world in which the gods are not manifest, there will be people for whom the gods' existence is not questionable. There are enough people like that to support a theocracy in Thrane, temples of the Host all across Khorvaire, and Khyber cults in every dark corner. The invoker PC happens to have powers that happen to match up with everybody's expectations of an emissary/prophet of the gods. But is the invoker an effect, or a cause? Proof of divinity, or a coincidental anomaly? Especially in a "fantasy noir" campaign, I think there's room for a character with some pretty conflicted feelings about faith.
#7 nthdegree256 Jun 23, 2009 9:33:23	Vestige Pact as a tie to Dal Quor is a really cool idea that hadn't occurred to me before! I'm going to repost (from memory, anyway) the idea I had for vestige pacts in Eberron a couple months ago... The idea basically goes like this. Some great and powerful rajah was defeated near the end of the Age of Demons, but instead of being sealed away by the Binding Flame, he was essentially shattered. Of course, you can't truly kill a rajah, and the end result was that fragments of his essence and power were scattered across Eberron. Individually, these fragments are devoid of much intelligence or raw power. However, they retained enough will to know their goal; to eventually reunite. And so, in order to have a continued effect upon the world and to have the opportunity to travel the globe in search of other fragments, these pieces began entering into pacts with humanoids, ones that they saw great potential in. The plans of a rajah are far-reaching and may take millenia to unfold; such is the case with this one. An unexpected side effect of the ages each fragment spent traveling with a humanoid and helping them rise to greatness was that the fragment began to pick up elements of their hosts' personalities. By now, it's rare to find a fragment... well, at all, to be honest, but in particular one that doesn't refer to itself by name; Khaeleth, the fallen angel of Syriana that drew upon his fragment for sustenance even as he gave everything else away; Ugar, the hobgoblin warlord who rose to power suspiciously quickly and, according to legend, dissolved away into the Blade Desert; Xandor the Mad, a giant who used his fragment's power to retain some shred of sanity as he delved into the secrets of Xoriat; and so on. By now, there are hundreds of these fragments drifting across the globe, echoing the personalities of the great warriors and creatures they helped rise to power; the greatest warlocks are capable of summoning the strength of many shards, each with a reflected will and history of its own. More than ever before, the fragments are affecting the flow of history and coming ever closer to rejoining. What will happen if two vestige pact warlocks meet each other? If a warlock gathers too many shards of his own? Did a shard make its pact with the warlock because it was desperate, or because it has some plan in mind for the chaos it can wreak through his actions?
#8 angelus_obscura Jun 24, 2009 1:03:00	Really? I always thought that Star and Fey are most appropriate for the dreams and nightmares of Dal Quor. Sure if you're going by the power types. Star and Fey pacts have the most psychic spells. I'm talking about themes, not mechanics. And the Quori aren't the only beings who can induce dreams. A Midsummer Night's Dream, hello. Deathless ancestors make excellent sources for Vestige as well.