-5000: Dhakaani Empire collapses.
-3000: Humans arrive in Khorvaire.
-2500: Proto-5 Nations form.
-2000: Karrn the Conqueror creates Karnnath.
-1500: Second wave of humans arrive; War of the Mark is launched.
1 YK: Galifar is established.
So what happens in the middle? These are vast spans of time about which we know nothing. What might have happened in Khorvaire during these undescribed periods?
I'm especially curious about -5000 to -3000. What was happening on Khorvaire after Dhakaan and before the arrival of humans?
History is a large part of the game I'm running, so I'd love to hear ideas people have about what kinds of kingdoms, empires, and major events may have happened in these lost ages.
During the Eberron Panel at Gencon (or it might have been a chat session with Keith) i think it was mentioned that the Dragonborn had a burgeoning empire during one of these "Down Times" but that it was destroyed when it encountered the Dhaakani.
So these "Blank Spots" could technically be dedicated to such periods of times- Tiefling Heirarchies, Githzerai Cloisters and Minotaur Kingdoms (PHB3 Material will soon be the new PHB2 Material on - So... where the hell do i fit these guys in.)
Also as they say- Rome wasn't built in a day- after the complete annihilation of a culture it takes time for something new to crop up. Check out the accounts of the fall of Rome in our own history for an example- or Jerusalem following the Roman Occupation.
I'm especially curious about -5000 to -3000. What was happening on Khorvaire after Dhakaan and before the arrival of humans?
The Dhakaan empire didn't fall overnight, after the the Daelkyr were defeated by the gatekeepers, the (remnants of) the Dhakaan empire fell prey to infighting and civil war. It was a process that lasted for centuries.
My take on it is that after the Daelkyr war, the Dhakaan empire was in pieces and lacking true centralized leadership to keep it united. Minor warlords poped up there and there from the ruins of the devasted cities, insurrectionist militias were formed, slaves revolted, etc.
The other races of Khorvaire probably started fighthing against the influenced of the fading Dhakaan empire too. After all, gnomes, dwarves and halflings were there all along and were probably very happy to see the end of Hobgoblin rule.
It's also improtant to remember that the Dhakaan empire was probably (based on the monument of Six Kings in Breland) founded with the unification of 6 goblinoid kingdoms, that union probably shattered and gave birth to several conflicts (think of the fall of Galifar and the last war but without a mourning to end it).
The Dhakaan empire didn't fall overnight, after the the Daelkyr were defeated by the gatekeepers, the (remnants of) the Dhakaan empire fell prey to infighting and civil war. It was a process that lasted for centuries.
I agree. For example, we know that the Dhakaani were agnostic, but that the time humans showed up, they found goblins worshipping a pantheon of 16 gods. A dragon article also discussed a (somewhat bloody) druidic cult that sprung up among a group of hobgoblins after the defeat of the Daelkyr, as they seized onto the force they saw as being responsible for the victory. Essentially, I see the war against the Daelkyr as leaving deep, deep scars; they may have been defeated, but they'd planted seeds of madness and despair in those they fought. So I see the goblins fragmenting, then the fragments fragmenting, and so on. Cults of the Dragon Below, the twisted druidic faith, the faith of the Sixteen, those seeking to hold to the old ways - many different goblinoid societies springing up, but being unable to regain the unity they'd once had.
-9000: Daelkyr War.
The Daelkyr war started, but it wasn't a sudden invasion and wasn't a five year war with fixed battle lines and clashing armies. Creatures from Xoriat were slipping into the world from the Shadow Marches, which in the time of Dhakaan, was a backwoods region inhabited largely by primitive Orcs. The Daelkyr are all about corruption and transforming their enemies. It wasn't a single conflict where you have the Daelkyr trying to siege and destroy Dhakaani cities.
So you have a long drawn out conflict where these "things" keep coming and slowly transform the Goblinoids and the rest of Khorvaire into something else. An invasion and war that's less like Indepence Day or War of the Worlds and more like Alien or the Thing. Only played out over a very long period of time with varying levels of "infestation" in any given part of the empire.
In the end, the Dhakaani Empire survived the Daelkyr war, but not without consequences. The Empire was a shadow of iots former self and over time it eventually lost control of its terrtories and vassal races and broke apart.
-5000: Dhakaani Empire collapses.
During this time, Goblinoid society had gone down the crapper, relatively speaking. They started worshipping gods, when they had been a largely agnostic people before. There are some Goblinoids who continue the traditions of the old empire, but they're small in number. The greater number of Goblins became the Ghal'dar. Those are the dominant variety in Khorvaire and the type that founded and run most of Darguun.
Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and other races that were previously mindful of the Goblinoids, if not client members of the Empire itself were left to their own devices.
This Gnomes of Zilargo in particular flourished at this time. Before the fall of Dhakaan, they were a tribal people who lived in burrows amongst badgers and rats. After the fall, they gleaned knowledge from the remains of Dhakaani ruins and their society began to congregate into a number of city-states.
The Dwarves remained in the Mror Holds and continued their way of life. The Halflings- as they do today- were nomadic hunters and herdsmen and roamed much more of Khorvaire, not just the Talenta Plains.
I'm pretty sure there were plenty of societies, kingdoms, wars, and other events worthy of note during this time, but nothing nearly as big as the continent spanning empire that had just preceded it.
The Dwarves remained in the Mror Holds and continued their way of life.
Well, bear in mind that the Mror way of life also changed dramatically. As noted in the Dragonshard...
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/2...
... It's said that prior to the Daelkyr an advanced dwarven society flourished in the depths below the Ironroot Mountains, and that the civilization of the Mror Holds was essentially a bunch of exiles who fell back into barbarism after being kicked out of the underkingdom.
I agree that the "Daelkyr invasion" was an extended event, foreshadowed by centuries of outbreaks and infestations. However, I do feel that towards the end, when the Daelkyr themselves entered the scene, you did have actual military engagements and sieges. The Queen of Stone described Orlassk's actions in Droaam, and the dolgrims and dolgaunts were developed to serve as foot soldiers in the struggle, with runehounds serving as lesser artillery and beholders as greater. In all likelihood, it wasn't as organized or predictable as a military conflict between human or goblin nations; it's likely that the daelkyr might win a tremendous victory and then utterly fail to capitalize on it, for no apparent reason... Or they might stop an advance for a decade to raise a giant monolith of wax and bone. And the daelkyr have never appeared to work closely together, even if we haven't mentioned them fighting one another. And throughout this period, you would have the overall influence of Xoriat growing stronger. So the Daelkyr armies were a threat, but not in the same way as a human army would be - and you'd still have the Alien sort of threat in the background, as Alex suggests.
That's just homebrew, I know, but I wanted to mention it.
The Dhakaan empire didn't fall overnight, after the the Daelkyr were defeated by the gatekeepers, the (remnants of) the Dhakaan empire fell prey to infighting and civil war. It was a process that lasted for centuries.
...
It's also improtant to remember that the Dhakaan empire was probably (based on the monument of Six Kings in Breland) founded with the unification of 6 goblinoid kingdoms, that union probably shattered and gave birth to several conflicts (think of the fall of Galifar and the last war but without a mourning to end it).
I've wondered about how much the term "empire" might actually describe Dhakaan. Is it referring to a literal empire, in which a king or queen rules a large group of ethnically, culturally, and linguistically distinct groups? Or is it used loosely to refer to the generally dominance of Dhakaani culture across Khorvaire for most of these centuries?
I have Egypt in mind when discussing this. "Ancient Egypt" tends to be referred to as if there were a single culture that dominated the region, but over the ~5000 years of Egypts literate but pre-Roman history, dozens of cultures came and went, with many different dynasties. At times it was divided, at times unified, sometimes invaded, sometimes conquering.
It's possible that future historians might think of Europe even now as still being under the influence of Roman empire/culture. Most of the dominate players are descendent of Latin culture, the Church of Rome and its offshoots dominate, and the republican structure of a senate is still practiced, if modified.
I think of Dhakaan as much the same. There must have been bloody civil wars, revolutions, coups, and more during these millenia, but so long as the general culture of Dhakaan endured, even major events might not merit a foot note in Khorvaire's history books. Perhaps an aranean nation spanned southern Khorvaire from the Dagger River to southern Cyre, but because it only lasted a century, there are no real traces of it left, and it wasn't pervasive enough to stop the temporarily subjugated goblins of the land from keeping their ways alive. When the aranea fell, the goblins took over again.
That's the kind of thing I'm getting at with the post. One century is a long time, let alone many thousands of years. There's got to be more to Khorvaire than 9000 years of "mostly goblins, then humans."
Likewise, you could easily have had a shifter culture in what's now Aundair that was pushed back into the Towering Woods... and we've already discussed the idea of a dragonborn culture that once spread out across the Talenta Plains and modern Valenar before being pressed back to Q'barra. Perhaps demon-worshipping gnolls once roamed what's now Breland before being pushed back beyond Graywall and forming the Znir Pact.
With that in mind, I think it's entirely appropriate to posit the existence of cultures that have been completely eliminated, or all but - Aranea or other races not particularly present in the modern world.
And whether or not there was a single Dhakaani emperor, I do think that the empire underwent significant cultural evolution over its rise to power and centuries of dominance. Even today, you see this in the fact that the heirs of Dhakaan are in competition with one another as they attempt to reforge the empire; likely the same thing occured in the rise of the Empire in the first place.
With that said, the "empire lasting thousands of years" is something I've never liked, and personally, I'd be just as happy to condense the Age of Monsters on by a factor of five. Scale's always been my issue with Eberron - maps are too big, the length of history's too long. ;)
With that said, the "empire lasting thousands of years" is something I've never liked, and personally, I'd be just as happy to condense the Age of Monsters on by a factor of five. Scale's always been my issue with Eberron - maps are too big, the length of history's too long. ;)
I don't mind such incredible lengths of time so long as I can make at least some sense of it. I think of "Dhakaan" as being a culture with humble beginnings that eventually grew to encompass almost all goblinoids and having mastered various techniques of governance that allowed the culture to exist for millenia - even if not always as a unitary state.
Maybe the goblinoids were all once a single race and bred into subspecies. Maybe something like Plato's Republic was in effect: some were selected for labor (goblins), some for war (bugbears), and some for leadership (hobgoblins). Give it a while and you end up with three races. This eugenics program could have led to the long-term stability of Dhakaan, as the bugbears and goblins were bred not only for their physical traits but also for obedience to hobgoblins.
Once the daelkyr invade, the goblinoids can't manage their controlled breeding as attentively - or maybe the fear of the invaders drove them to "reckless" reproduction policies. Either way, without their bloodlines being carefully managed, the three races regressed, cooperated less, and eventually even warred with one another.
In other words, just as there is only a single orc race, there was once a single goblin race, but Dhakaan bred them into three, and without careful management, those three degenerated and have not been able to unite wholly again.
While all this was going on with the goblins, though, other races must have been doing something. Orcs were fighting at the edges and being driven into the, ahem, crap parts of Khorvaire. Gnomes were burrowing jungle barbarians. Maybe packs of lycanthropes roamed across the continent seeking prey. Elves may have scouted Khorvaire seeking manifest zones to Irian, building colonies, only to have them destroyed when Dhakaan hit another upswing.
Maybe the goblinoids were all once a single race and bred into subspecies. Maybe something like Plato's Republic was in effect: some were selected for labor (goblins), some for war (bugbears), and some for leadership (hobgoblins). Give it a while and you end up with three races. This eugenics program could have led to the long-term stability of Dhakaan, as the bugbears and goblins were bred not only for their physical traits but also for obedience to hobgoblins.
I don't recall if this idea ever made it into any of the sourcebooks, but it's actually always been there in the background of the Dhakaani - along with the thought that there may be other goblinoid strains we've yet to see that were never as widespread.
While all this was going on with the goblins, though, other races must have been doing something. Orcs were fighting at the edges and being driven into the, ahem, crap parts of Khorvaire. Gnomes were burrowing jungle barbarians. Maybe packs of lycanthropes roamed across the continent seeking prey. Elves may have scouted Khorvaire seeking manifest zones to Irian, building colonies, only to have them destroyed when Dhakaan hit another upswing.
I'd expect that goblin - orc conflict continued long after the initial "fall of Dhakaan" and contributed to the collapse of the old traditions. In some places there would be alliances based on joint struggles in the war against the Daelkyr, and this would be the origin of the druidic path mentioned in the Gathering Stone article... but of course, many orcs turned to the Cults of the Dragon Below. Which is another point... we officially measure the "end" of the Daelkyr incursion when the portals to Xoriat were sealed and the Daelkyr trapped in Khyber, but that left surely left many cults and many aberrations scattered across the continent. They might have been lacking guiding leadership and the sheer power of the Daelkyr, but you surely had a long period of Aliens-style combat and undoubtedly some enthusiastic efforts to break the seals while the cults were at their height and filled with hope.
Lycanthropes are a good thought, along with any of the races known to exist in Droaam - minotaurs, gnolls, even harpies. In the west there's the dragonborn and lizardfolk, not to mention the possibility of dwarves spreading beyond the Ironroot Mountains; they may have been pushed back there when humans claimed the area, but I see no reason to assume that they didn't spread out at some point in time.
I must get back to work on my other projects, but I think there's a lot of interesting possibilities to explore here.
Scale's always been my issue with Eberron - maps are too big, the length of history's too long. ;)
I thought I was the only one who thought the length of history was rediculously long
If you go back 5,000 years in human history you would have covered almost all of "civilized" human history (the first human cities arose around 3100 BC in Egypt* and Mesopotania), and if you go into the 10,000 to 20,000 years you actually get on the evolutionary time scale with neanderthalers and the modern humans. To me such lengths of time make sense if talking about the Age of Monsters, or the Age of Dragons, but when talking about races with a life span of decades as opposed to millenia it becomes a bit weird. Then again, our civilized world is not nearly as old as in Eberron with three predessor civilized races (as opposed to culture). So we do not know how long it would take to fall back into the stone age...* Although I recently saw a show on National Geographic saying that the first Egyptian cities might actually be 3 to 4 centuries older then this.
I cannot say the map of Eberron is too large. Indeed, Khorvaire should be as big as Eurasia, considering the diversity of cultures and geography contained therein.
Why? Considering the amount of different cultures in a small area like Western Europe, especially before modern day communications, I don't see why that would be necessary. Personally I also don't think the differences in culture between the various countries are actually that big. They have been ruled by the same king for over a millenia. Even in RL the Roman Empire impacted the culture of the Celts and Germans a lot and that was without the almost modern-like transportation and communication methods available to the humans of Galivar. Of course, they differ on a few key facts, but I doubt it is more then for example the differences between the Republic of the Netherlands, the French Catholic Kingdom, the English Protestant Kingdom or the loose alliance of the various German kingdoms in RL around the 16th century.
I cannot say the map of Eberron is too large. Indeed, Khorvaire should be as big as Eurasia, considering the diversity of cultures and geography contained therein.
only, it really doesn't. there's not that much diversity, and even countries that are considered "minor" like zilargo and q'bara are quite large when compared to countries on earth.
Khorvaire only needs to be as big as Eurasia if you want the world map to plot out a planet as large as earth. otherwise, one can take a certain active poster's suggestion that was made a few years ago and make Eberron the size of the Earth's moon.
to follow up on the original purpose of the thread, the vast lacunas of eberron's history allow for any amount of development and fill for a DM. it's possible that there were any number of "Last Wars" before the real Last War ,that pit Galifaran against Galifaran and helped create the historic precedent for the cataclysm that finally destroyed the kingdom.
the length of the Dhakaani Empire's existence and the tremendous amount of time it took the Sarlonan colonists to conquer Khorvaire gives an enormous amount of leeway to an entrepreneurial DM looking to place a campaign there or otherwise develop material from the pre-Galifaran period as well.
for instance, it's commonly stated that the Dhakaan were agnostics. This strikes me as a rather blanket statement for a continent-spanning, multi-racial empire that lasted for thousands of years and endured a tremendous amount of change during that time, including facing down an invasion from another plane. It's possible that certain periods of Dhakaani history were marked by conflict between agnostics and religious groups or that long stretches of that empire's history were marked by the rule of various priesthoods and cults. why wouldn't one expect to find a Dhakaani temple to some forgotten (or not-so forgotten) deity?
for instance, it's commonly stated that the Dhakaan were agnostics. This strikes me as a rather blanket statement for a continent-spanning, multi-racial empire that lasted for thousands of years and endured a tremendous amount of change during that time, including facing down an invasion from another plane. It's possible that certain periods of Dhakaani history were marked by conflict between agnostics and religious groups or that long stretches of that empire's history were marked by the rule of various priesthoods and cults. why wouldn't one expect to find a Dhakaani temple to some forgotten (or not-so forgotten) deity?
This is actually already well-established in canon as something that occurred in the wake of the Daelkyr incursion. We know that at least some segment of the empire turned to the worship of the Sixteen. We also have the druidic sect that sprung up near the Gathering Stone. And i'd assume that these are simply the two strongest traditions.
I don't mean this to dismiss your post or assert that you couldn't have religious diversity beforehand. On the contrary, the point to me would be that the Sixteen, at least, was likely a faith that had existed in some form earlier in history and simply rose to the fore again in the slow fall of the empire.
In my opinion, the "Dhakaani Empire" took a long time to solidify. The current rivalries between the Dhakaani clans shows that unification through conquest is considered to be an acceptable tool, and this likely reflects the original foundation of the empire. And I certainly believe that even once unified, there was a long period of conflict between the goblins and other cultures. Again, I don't think that the orcs began in their modern territories; they were driven to these places through many generations of conflict. This is also the reason we set the orcs as speaking Goblin in 4E; the idea that Goblin was the "Common" of the Age of Monsters.
(Personally, I have nothing against adding Orcish back into 4E... though I might personally establish it as a regional dialect varying between Marcher Orc, Waste Orc, Mror Orc... give it to any orc of the region for free, and allow anyone who speaks Goblin to attempt to understand it with an Intelligence check, or automatically if they possess the Linguist feat. But if I were to do that, I'd probably take a similar approach to other regional languages. I understand the gameplay reason to reduce languages to facilitate communication and reduce the sacrifice of PC resources, but there are certainly ways to add in some of that flavor. But that's a topic for another discussion.)
for instance, it's commonly stated that the Dhakaan were agnostics. This strikes me as a rather blanket statement for a continent-spanning, multi-racial empire that lasted for thousands of years and endured a tremendous amount of change during that time, including facing down an invasion from another plane. It's possible that certain periods of Dhakaani history were marked by conflict between agnostics and religious groups or that long stretches of that empire's history were marked by the rule of various priesthoods and cults. why wouldn't one expect to find a Dhakaani temple to some forgotten (or not-so forgotten) deity?
Quite right. It's like saying "Egyptians were polytheists." Well, sure, the dominant religions in Egyptian culture prior to the rise of Christianity usually featured more than one deity, but just referring to polytheism vastly oversimplifies things.
It's not even clear what "agnostic" means in the context of Dhakaani culture. In correct usage, to be agnostic means that one believes ultimate knowledge of first causes or gods is impossible to attain - but it actually does not exclude faith in deities. In common usage, many people call themselves agnostics when what they are really indicating is, "I haven't made up my mind," or, "I'm not sure."
Who knows what it means for the Dhakaani? Perhaps they were "strict" agnostics, and essentially maintained the following: The existence of the Sixteen is impossible to know, and thus we do not worship them. In other words, they simply did not hold belief in nor practice the worship of deities (making them, essentially, weak atheists).
Maybe "agnostic" means something else - maybe it's used to refer to a cultural ambivalence towards the 16. Whereas Galifar's culture implicity recognizes the gods, perhaps the Dhakaani state didn't refer to them at all.
We also don't know what the religious history of the Dhakaani was. While it seems they were mostly agnostic (whatever that means) most of the time, this doesn't mean their history is stable in this regard. Maybe there was a gobliniod version of Akhenaten who installed a monotheistic religion for a time. Maybe the Dhakaani were, at one time, targets of the quori, and for a brief period experienced flourishing Inspired cults. They surely had to deal with Khyber cults. It might even get more bizarre. Maybe a Radiant Idol cult became important for a few decades.
There may also have been different religious practices among the different races and different social levels. Maybe the hobgoblins at the top were strictly atheistic agnostics, but the bugbears practiced a triple threat cult of Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, and the Mockery.
It's not even clear what "agnostic" means in the context of Dhakaani culture. In correct usage, to be agnostic means that one believes ultimate knowledge of first causes or gods is impossible to attain - but it actually does not exclude faith in deities. In common usage, many people call themselves agnostics when what they are really indicating is, "I haven't made up my mind," or, "I'm not sure."
Funny thing with words is that their meaning changes depending on what people think it means ;) I checked the dictionary, and while the most used meaning is the one you provide, by now it also includes:
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
Who knows what it means for the Dhakaani? Perhaps they were "strict" agnostics, and essentially maintained the following: The existence of the Sixteen is impossible to know, and thus we do not worship them. In other words, they simply did not hold belief in nor practice the worship of deities (making them, essentially, weak atheists).
Certainly. All of the other points here are good ones. In a world in which divine characters exist, not to mention things like radiant idols and angels, I would say that the key point is that the empire of Dhakaan did not have a state-sanctioned religion: the empire itself wasn't built on a foundation of divine right or the approval of a specific deity. We have suggested that the in the golden age of Dhakaani culture, the spiritual leaders inspired the people with deeds of past heroes as opposed to belief in deities. However, this doesn't suggest strict athiesm or disbelief in higher powers - simply that if these higher powers do exist, their true nature is unknown. Perhaps Aureon is a god. Perhaps Aureon is a dragon. Perhaps Aureon is a demon. All well and good. Someone might even serve Aureon in exchange for power; it's just a different approach.
The main point when the statement was first made was that the Dhakaani didn't have the sort of divine infrastructure built into society that you see in modern Khorvaire. The spiritual leaders were bards as opposed to priests, society focused on the known (recorded deeds of past heroes) as opposed to the unknown (myths of possible gods). But while that might have been true overall and at the height of the empire, it may not have been true everywhere and for its entire lifespan. Khyber cults, radiant idols, the Sixteen, Lords of Dust, who knows what else.