Introducing Casters: Firearms in 4E-berron (looking for a PEACH/some balance help)...

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Cyber-Dave

Aug 06, 2008 18:31:52
I am planning on introducing fire-arms to my Eberron setting. My goal in creating the bellow weapons is to create a weapon that is in some ways superior to all other (non magical) weapons. However, I want certain balancing aspects that will stop this weapon from out and out replacing conventional D&D weapons (such as swords, bows, and the like). The balancing aspects I chose are its cost, ammunition cost, superior weapon proficiency requirement, and load time. At the same time, I wanted this weapon to "feel" like a weapon that could, in some ways, turn a "common peasant into a threat against a mounted knight". The "caster" property is what I used to do this. I would really appreciate some thoughts on my success, or failure, of balancing this weapon. Suggestions on what I should change, if anything, are also welcome.

Casters
Shortly after the end of the last war, and the signing of the Treaty of Thronehold, rumors claim that a new type of weapon was found amongst the artifacts of Xen’drik by an archeological expedition from Morgrave University. This weapon, called the caster by those who whisper about its existence, is claimed to be an artifice designed to fire small metal slugs, via a magic infusion, at incredibly fast speeds. Morgrave claims that it has found no such object, but many conspiracy theorists whisper that in fact the university is simply attempting to keep research about the newly found artifact secret lest any second parties take offense to the university studying a new weapon of war after the signing of the Treaty of Thronehold. Cannith mage-wrights and artificers have occasionally been reported claiming that, theoretically, such an artifice could exist. Some combination of a metal slug, a Khyber shard bound with a fire elemental designed to create a small explosion, and a hollow wand or staff designed to aim the flight of the projectile, might, theoretically, produce a weapon much like a sling, but capable of launching its ammunition at a much higher and more deadly speed. Still, all Cannith mage-wrights have been quick to state that no member of house Cannith is involved in researching such new magic weaponry. Indeed, Cannith’s quick disavowal of any research into the creation of such an item have led certain conspiracy theorists to believe that Barron Merrix d’Cannith, or perhaps Barron Zorlan d’Cannith, may in fact be researching how to produce such a weapon for either Breland or Karnnath, a claim which both nations claim is foolish in the extreme.

[b]Weapon Prof. Damage Range Weight Group Properties Price[/b]<br /> [b]One Handed Casters (Superior Weapon Proficiency)[/b]<br /> Revolver wand +1 1d10 10/20 2 lb. Caster Six-shooter, load standard plus move action, caster. 150 gp<br /> Heavy wand +1 1d12 10/20 2 lb. Caster Load standard plus move action, caster, high-crit. 150 gp<br /> [b]Two Handed Casters (Superior Weapon Proficiency)[/b]<br /> Revolver staff +1 2d6 15/30 8 lb. Caster Six-shooter, load standard plus move action, caster 200 gp<br /> Heavy staff +1 2d8 15/30 8 lb. Caster Load standard plus move action, caster, high-crit. 200 gp
#2

mystrich

Aug 07, 2008 0:20:37
I've been thinking of something like this, especially with the so far ranged-only artificer.
#3

sithraldor

Aug 07, 2008 11:06:53
Check out the link below it is 3e idea but I used them, the feel & mechanics fit in Eberron well.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991421
#4

Cyber-Dave

Aug 07, 2008 11:12:53
Double posting for the lose.
#5

Cyber-Dave

Aug 07, 2008 11:18:00
How is the balance of my casters? I wasn't sure if I should start the damage progression at 1d8 or 1d10. I ended up choosing 1d10 because the hand crossbow is 1d6. 1d8 would make this weapon 1 step better than the hand crossbow, which should make it a regular superior weapon. Coupled with the high price and slow reload, I figured 1d10 would work better. It also seemed more in line with the damage of firearms in 3.5 (Modern and Past) rules.

Sitheldor: Your shardguns look nice. They don't really work with their damage dice, for me, though. A 1d6 handgun would be no better then a hand crossbow (4e wise), which is a simple weapon. Obviously the first iteration of the guns damage dice should be higher, as it is a superior weapon. 1d8 at least, and 1d10 is what I ended up deciding on (given the higher cost, and slow reload speed, of these weapons). Rules wise I am going to start with what I have already created here. What I need is a bit of help tweaking these 4e rules, to make sure that they are well balanced for 4e.
#6

m4kitsu

Aug 07, 2008 17:15:17
I like the idea and the mechanics work okay.

One thing I might suggest is changing the reload times: make it three move actions to reload, though they need not be consecutive. This means that a character with a bit of breathing room can reload in a round and a half -nine seconds is about right for a revolver if you know what you're doing, and still get a shot off on that second round.

Then (re)introduce a feat to cut reloading time:

Speed Loader
Prerequisite: Dex 17, Wis 15, wand-caster or staff-caster superior weapon proficiency.
Benefit: You can reload any caster with which you are proficient with two move actions instead of three.

...which allows a character to reload in a single round, or over two rounds if he still wants to use other standard actions.



Also, as food for thought: you mentioned that these weapons are magically impelled, not chemically. Would it not, then, be logical to assume that the basic operational mechanics of firearms as we know them need not necessarily apply?

When your firing mechanism is as perfect as these, revolving cylinders and magazine-fed weapons with gas operated bolts suddenly become completely, entirely irrelevant... and counterintuitive.
#7

Cyber-Dave

Aug 07, 2008 23:22:21
Ok, I like your reload and speed loader feat suggestions. I will use them. Do you think "speed loader" should be a heroic or a paragon tier feat? I'm thinking heroic...

Also, as food for thought: you mentioned that these weapons are magically impelled, not chemically. Would it not, then, be logical to assume that the basic operational mechanics of firearms as we know them need not necessarily apply?

Yes, its true. They need not necessarily apply. However, I still plan on using revolving cylinders. Why? Well, for story purposes, each gun will have a magical hammer crafted out of a khyber shard and bound with a fire elemental. Each bullet will have a rune with an infused incantation attached to its rear end. When the hammer hits the rune, bang, and the bullet flies. Really thought, the reason why is feel and flavor. I'm looking to have firearms with a wild west flavor. Maybe a little later I will introduce some WWI feel to the firearms... think Dark Tower or some such. I want the casters to "feel" like guns the same way the "lighting rail" feels like a steam locomotive. Of course, if you actually think about it, the lighting rail is propelled by something far more advanced and "perfect". Likewise, these casters are propelled by something far more advanced and "perfect". But I still want to retain the flavor and feel of the object they are modeled after. Of course, the thing that makes the cylinder revolve after each shot... pure magic.

So, the big thing I was worrying about is the damage dice. Are these weapons too superior, or does their high cost, superior weapon proficiency requirement, and three move action load time, make up for their high damage dice?
#8

sithraldor

Aug 08, 2008 6:19:29
The shardgun was Lucent's idea not mine.

I think the damage might be high. I know it isn't as accurary & requires a feat, but the reload faction becomes very irrelavant very quickly as does the price of the weapon, the cost of ammo would become a real limiting factor if you make your PCs keep track of ammo. Buy a second caster & that is 12 shots at 1d10 or higher using only a minor action or two to reload. Then you reload you caster's during your short rest. Just my thoughts.
#9

Cyber-Dave

Aug 08, 2008 11:20:05
I'm the type of DM who does force his players to keep track of ammo... so they will be spending 1gp a shot per wand, and 2gp a shot per staff (once ammo becomes available on the open market). They will also be forced to buy ammo off restricted facilities (Cannith operators).

I don't know if I agree about the cost of the weapon/reload being irrelevant. I mean, two wand casters are 300 gp. Two staff casters are 200 gp. Those two weapons will essentially be two magic items of just under level 1. As the characters raise in level, if they want to have magic casters, they must also pay magic item costs. Lets say the characters are level 8. That 3,550 gp for a wand, and 3,600 gp for a staff. If they want to be able to drop one caster in order to pick up another one, they will either have to use weapons of bellow their level (meaning that characters that are not using casters, despite their lower base damage die, will have more powerful weapons due to magic enchantments), or they will have to pay an exorbitant amount of money. Indeed, unless the entire group wants to fund this character, at the expense of their own equipment, I highly doubt such a character could afford multiple magic casters of their level. This, once again, forces them to spend 3 move actions (or 2 move actions if they spend another feat) on reload time. Once again, that's going to slow down damage per second. Do you really feel that damage is too high despite that?

I guess I could drop damage down to 1d8/1d10/1d10/2d6 for all the weapons. But again, it seems to me that that might be a little low. I mean, the hand crossbow does 1d6, is a simple weapon, one handed, and has a minor reload action. 1d8 is only one step up on damage. A 1d8, one handed, minor reload action, weapon should require a feat. It should be about the same cost as all other weapons. It should be priced similarly to all other weapons (20-40gp tops). When we compare this to the six-shooter wand-caster, its true, the six shooter can be fired 6 times with no actions spent, but then one must spend three move actions to reload it. I suppose that does sort of put it in line with what a superior weapon should do... but certainly not a 150gp superior weapon. I suppose I could drop its cost, and drop the damage dice. I didn't really want to do that, as I sort of wanted to keep the damage these items do relative to the 3.5 edition damage these weapons did, but I care more about balance than that. Another option, which would drop damage a bit, but keep the revolvers damage slightly higher, would be 2d4, 1d10, 1d12, 2d6...

So, I guess my final question is, if I drop damage how much should I drop the cost? Maybe 50gp for the wands, 100 gp for the staffs? My second question, can I get some second opinions: is the (originally listed) damage dice too high considering the cost (in terms of balance)? Is the cost of the firearm really not a limiting factor at all? Is it really so unfair to have a higher level character using multiple lower level weapons to avoid reload time, but thus having an inferior weapon (due to the ratio of his level to his weapons level), or else using a powerful weapon but being forced to deal with 3 move actions to reload (2 with a feat)?