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| #1Cyber-DaveJul 11, 2009 15:11:26 | Ok, so, I happen to REALLY love the concept of the Abolithic Sovereignty and the city of Xxiphu. So, my question is, how would you introduce these concepts into Eberron? Would they be a rival of the Daelkyr from the Far Realm? Would they be sub-ordinates? An ally? I'm interested in thoughts. |
| #2ChrisTheSJul 11, 2009 15:58:02 | Were I to do it, I would have the tower be of goblin-make, built up around a mobile Gatekeeper seal covering a shifting manifest zone over the south coast and the Thunder Sea, from Kraken Bay to the Straits of Shargon. The aboleths who were former servitors of the bound daelkyr have captured and occupied the tower and use it as a base of operations, raiding the coast and capturing ships whenever they are within striking reach in search of materials they require to break the seal. However, since they have no control over where the tower takes them, this is a slow process. |
| #3nthdegree256Jul 12, 2009 10:48:36 | Back in the 3.5 days, Keith Baker wrote an article about using material from the aberrations book Lords of Madness in Eberron - it has a few paragraphs on a suggested way to handle aboleths. Basically, he suggests treating them as the deep-sea versions of the rakshasa and the Lords of Dust; fiends born from Khyber, scheming from the dawn of time until the end. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a So that's a thought. It divorces the aboleth from their relationship to Xoriat, Eberron's Far Realm, so if you're interested in using that connection (I don't really know much about the Abolethic Sovereignty, to be honest!) you might want to ignore the above article and take a different route, more along the lines of ChrisTheS's suggestion with the aboleths as daelkyr servants. |
| #4KnoJul 12, 2009 11:30:06 | I'd say they'd be rivals, don't like that the daelkyr are the source for everything aberrational. What about the sharns, they would be very interesting in Eberron considering their name. |
| #5Cyber-DaveJul 12, 2009 13:44:28 | Ok, this is fantastic: Aboleths According to Lords of Madness, the civilization of the aboleths is the most ancient in existence. The memories of these creatures stretch back to a time before time, and they can recall ancient evils that have long since faded from human knowledge. Only a few simple changes are needed to adapt this concept for use in an Eberron campaign. The mythology of Eberron mentions a war that took place at the dawn of time. Most legends speak of the rakshasas as the first fiends and refer to them as the most ancient enemies of the light. But these creatures were not the only children of Khyber -- the oceans became home to the aboleths at about the same time as the first rakshasas were created. The rakshasas ruled the land, but the aboleths held sway in the deep waters, unknown to all but a few. Both battled dragons and couatls, and in time, both saw the Elder Evils cast down and bound by the Silver Flame. After this defeat, the aboleths retreated to the depths where no dragon could follow them. In the hundreds of millennia since, they have slowly returned, spreading their influence across the world. Now the aboleths wait for the day when the Silver Flame will gutter and die, allowing the Elder Evils to return and claim the world as their own. If you accept this version of Eberron's history, the aboleths become contemporaries of the Lords of Dust and enemies of the Chamber and the Church of the Silver Flame. The Elder Evils -- those ancient powers bound by the Silver Flame -- are also known as the rakshasa rajahs, though this latter name is simply a title. Eberron's history portrays these overlords as unique spirits with powers far beyond those of any rakshasa, and the Elder Evils detailed in Lords of Madness certainly fill the bill. Thus, they can also serve as the powers behind the Lords of Dust and the Carrion Tribes of the Demon Wastes. Like the dragons and the rakshasas, the aboleths have the perspective required to study and understand the Draconic Prophecy fully, and they have discovered segments of it hidden in the deep waters. Like the rakshasas, the aboleths seek vengeance against the dragons and intend to twist the path of the Draconic Prophecy. As a result, characters working for the Chamber can easily be drawn into conflict with aboleths and their agents. While the Abolithic Sovereignty and Xxiphu bring with them madness, they seem to be much more focused around stuff like Aboliths, krakens, and deep sea creatures, as opposed to aberrations in general. I think treating aboliths as a species of the original Elder Evils, the deep sea equivalents of the rakshasa's that ruled the land, works VERY well. It also goes very well with the Cathuluesque flavor of Xxiphu and the Abolithic Sovereignty. So, I think that is the route to take with the Abolithic Sovereignty. Perhaps Xxiphu would be physical component of the attempt to break the seals that hold the Elder Evil's bound in Khyber, letting the original/Eldest of the Aboliths out of their deep sea prisons. |
| #6tzarevitchJul 14, 2009 14:56:46 | I assume by "explain," you mean set a backstory. I wouldn't "explain" it to the PCs at all. I would simply have it rise from the depths and do whatever inscrutable things the aboleths do. As far as backstory, the simplest one is have someone break the seal keeping Xxiphuu buried at the bottom of the sea. Xxiphuu could have been the floating city of one of the daelkyr (the one who is master of slimes would be the most logical) left over from the war. Even though the daelkyr are imprisoned, the aboleth could have continued to use the city for their own purposes. Personally I don't like the concept that the aboleth are contemporaries of the Lords of Dust as they aren't even the same type. They are aberrations and not "natural". They almost certainly came from Xoriat although whether they are aligned with the Daelkyr is another story. It is possible they came through long before the daelkyr did, or they may have come through recently and brought Xxiphuu with them. Tzarevitch |
| #7Cyber-DaveJul 14, 2009 16:31:53 | I don't know. Keith Baker seemes to feel that Aboleth were a better fit with the Lords of Dust than the Daelkyr. I see no reason not to side with him on this. I just think that the overall story of the Abolithic Sovereignty and Xxiphu fit in better with the Lords of Dust than the Daelkyre invasion. As creatures with a memory that spans back to the dawn of time, and a city that was supposed to be in the world (but forgotten in the depths of the sea) since that dawn of time, having it be a result of the far more recent Daelkyr invasion just doesn't seem to fit as well. And, I don't see how Abolith are any more or less natural than the demons of the Lords of Dust. Sort of seems like potatoes and pot-at-oes to me. I think I am going to stick with Kieth Baker's suggestions. They seem to work more elegantly. |
| #8AvonRekaesJul 14, 2009 16:57:42 | I always felt that Keith's article didn't go back far enough. In Lords of Madness, Aboleths were creatures from before time, not just "the dawn of time". I also recall somewhere where Eberron didn't create the planet itself, but just trapped Khyber inside a pre-existing one. If you go with that idea, I'd have it be some sort of water-world, where the Aboleths ruled supreme before the coming of the Progenitor Dragons. In this case, the Aboleths would be furious at everything on the planet. Rakhasas, Rajahs, Dragons, Couatl, interlopers like the Daelkyr, everyone. They've all invaded their "sovereignty". |
| #9HellcowJul 14, 2009 17:18:39 | I also recall somewhere where Eberron didn't create the planet itself, but just trapped Khyber inside a pre-existing one. I've never heard this, myself. The version of the progenitor myth I know is this:
So by this myth, Eberron IS the earth itself. There's no reason to believe this myth is true, and even if it was, you could posit "before time" by placing the aboleths in the void the Progenitors moved through. Personally, I like the aboleths as parallel children of Khyber to emphasize that Khyber is a source of all manner of dark forces, not merely fiends... and to extend the idea that the first war raged in the depths as well as on land (since many dragons are capable of breathing underwater). Random point... IIRC, the myth the sahaugin guide tells in The Shattered Land hints at the presence of the aboleths, suggesting that the sahuagin were enslaved long ago, and to escape their terrible masters a group of sahuagin accepted a gift from the Traveller. The "One Who Remains Unknown" taught them to build a boat, that let them hide on the surface of the water, but in the process made them weak and soft... which is to say, human. By this myth, the humans than made the land - and that if they hadn't left in the first place, there would have been no surface world. So it seems THAASK believes in a primal world of water ruled by aboleths, before land ever existed - and in his myths, I'd imagine the rakshasa came later to plague the new lands above the waters. But, of course, the beauty of Eberron is that you can decide for yourself. ;) |
| #10AegeriJul 14, 2009 22:14:14 | I think making the Aboleths their own general group and not bound to either the Lords of Dust or Daelkyr could be interesting in itself. Just having another entirely separate and equally alien/weird group of antagonists. Perhaps the Aboleths were simply waiting for the stars to become right before acting. It's not like creatures from H.P. Lovecrafts works take any interest in being coherent or working together (Yithians were exterminated by the mysterious flying Polyps afterall). |
| #11HellcowJul 15, 2009 1:59:32 | I think making the Aboleths their own general group and not bound to either the Lords of Dust or Daelkyr could be interesting in itself. Important point: By my original intention, they have no ties whatsoever to the Lords of Dust. They don't have a representative in Ashtakala. They have ancestral ties to Khyber, which happens to be the same force that produced the Lords of Dust. Their elder evils ruled the depths when forces like the Scar That Abides and the Voice in the Darkness ruled the land. They fought dragons. But they weren't allies with rakshasa or fiend, nor are they today. Most creatures of the natural world are said to be children of Eberron, but that doesn't make them allies. Which, after all, is one of the main reason the forces of Khyber were ultimately defeated despite their incredible power; they didn't unify against the common threat. The confusion is in the prhasing that the Edler Evils can "serve as the powers behind the Lords of Dust", which is essentially to say that you can use them as Overlords of the Age of Demons. But again, not all Overlords care about rakshasa - The Daughter of Khyber and the Scar That Abides being two examples. It's not like creatures from H.P. Lovecrafts works take any interest in being coherent or working together (Yithians were exterminated by the mysterious flying Polyps afterall). Certainly. The thing I'd say here is that the creatures of the Lovecraft myths don't all come from the same place. Leng, Carcosa, Yuggoth, the Abyss, sunken R'lyeh, Kadath... some come from dreams, some from the darkness within the world, some come from the cold depths of space. We have the daelkyr from Xoriat, along with the mind flayers and beholders; the Dreaming Dark from Dal Quor; and thus I like the aboleths as creatures of Khyber, mighty aberrations native to Eberron itself (or at least to Khyber). |
| #12eehamburgJul 15, 2009 12:13:22 | [*] Khyber kills Eberron and tears him apart. The Ring of Siberys is the remnants of his body. Shouldn't that be Khyber kills Siberys? |
| #13HellcowJul 15, 2009 13:18:05 | Shouldn't that be Khyber kills Siberys? Indeed, edited. |
| #14vigilant1Jul 15, 2009 17:37:40 | Well here is a suggestion. Perhaps the Aboleths came to Eberron from another world, eons before the Age of Demons, claiming the world as their own. That way they are both alien to the world of Eberron, but also the oldest forms of sentient life. That and it seems rather H.P. Lovecraftish, since I know he did some works where various Old ones are said to be of another world. |
| #15tzarevitchJul 15, 2009 17:41:01 | Certainly. The thing I'd say here is that the creatures of the Lovecraft myths don't all come from the same place. Leng, Carcosa, Yuggoth, the Abyss, sunken R'lyeh, Kadath... some come from dreams, some from the darkness within the world, some come from the cold depths of space. We have the daelkyr from Xoriat, along with the mind flayers and beholders; the Dreaming Dark from Dal Quor; and thus I like the aboleths as creatures of Khyber, mighty aberrations native to Eberron itself (or at least to Khyber). The problem is that doesn't really work by definition in the 4e rules. They have the wrong origin tag. Aboleths have the "aberrant" origin. As defined in the MM, "Aberrant creatures are native to or shaped by the Far Realm," which is Xoriat in the Eberron setting. That's why Rakshasa have the "natural" origin instead of "elemental" like most demonic beings. They are demons native to Eberron. If the Aboleths are race of native fiends, they should have the "natural" origin tag. The more likely explanation is they too came from Xoriat, but are separate from, and possibly arrived far earlier than, the Daelkyr. They may have even arrived from Xoriat when the world first formed. (Admittedly, you could also just change their origin.) ![]() Tzarevitch |
| #16ellorinJul 15, 2009 17:54:38 | The problem is that doesn't really work by definition in the 4e rules. They have the wrong origin tag. Aboleths have the "aberrant" origin. As defined in the MM, "Aberrant creatures are native to or shaped by the Far Realm," which is Xoriat in the Eberron setting. That's why Rakshasa have the "natural" origin instead of "elemental" like most demonic beings. They are demons native to Eberron. If the Aboleths are race of native fiends, they should have the "natural" origin tag. ...and devils are supposed to come from the Astral sea-yet the EPG allows for devils in Khyber, not just in the Sea of Siberys(i'd expect that that means Savarath). Furthermore, Eberron's rakshasas are creatures of Khyber, not Eberron-by that logic we should either abandon that or give them the elemental keyword. I just don't see it. Why should Eberron be bound by such assumptions? |
| #17HellcowJul 15, 2009 18:03:36 | As defined in the MM, "Aberrant creatures are native to or shaped by the Far Realm," which is Xoriat in the Eberron setting. Certainly. But the Monster Manual doesn't take the existence of Khyber into account. It can't; it's a core setting. We've always said that both the Mourning and Khyber are an alternate source of aberrations, just as you can have balors born of Khyber that have nothing to do with Fernia - beings with similar stats but embodying pure evil. It's that thing of "A monster... from the core rulebooks might feature a twist or two to account for Eberron's tone and attitude." There's all sorts of things in the Monster Manual that don't quite match Eberron. The Far Realms being the sole source of aberrant creatures is one of them... because again, the MM doesn't have Khyber or the Mourning as base assumptions to work with. With that said, bear in mind that according to the creation myth, the progentiors created ALL of the planes... with the material plane being their last creation and final resting place, where all the others come together. Some are balanced between the three. Others clearly show a predisposition to one of the three. So Xoriat is a realm that reflects Khyber's touch, and thus you can see aberrations both in Xoriat and in Khyber, just as you can find a balor in Fernia or Khyber. |
| #18eehamburgJul 16, 2009 13:20:12 | Why is that when KB speaks, the ideas flow? |