Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 naturax Aug 31, 2010 8:38:41	I'm running a campaign for a bunch of players new to Eberron and I have Big Ideas for how to mess with the setting, specifically revolving around aberrant vs. "true" dragonmarks. I've been running Eberron for something like six years now, so there is a lot that I want to play with, but it occurs to me that all of the stuff I want to do will lose impact if the players aren't familiar with how things are "supposed to work". Most TV shows do this, I think: they devote a few episodes to setting up the premise before they start messing with it. 'Course I've already jumped the gun and my players are in the middle of the conflict between House Tarkanan vs. The Twelve. So how can I take a step back from the conflict in order to give the players more context with which to understand what's going on? Or is there some other device I can use in my story to make sure the plot doesn't go over their heads? Thanks a zillion!
#2 Gurv Sep 01, 2010 0:22:20	You didn't tell us what the "Big Idea" is that you've jumped the gun on. I also have some players who don't seem to be where they should be when it comes to understanding the social role the houses have to play. I plan on making a strong point about it in the next campaign I run. The players understand, of course, the mechanics of dragonmarks and they know that having one makes you important. But they don't seem to get that is itsn't a "I have powers" things as much as a "I know people" thing. My suggestion is that you show them the clout that the dragonmarked houses have. If they insult someone from House Orien, torture them with descriptions of how long it takes to travel somewhere. If they diss someone from Ghallandra, make sure those churches turn them away as well. On the other hand, give them serious perks for aiding one of the houses. Put simply: have the consequences of dealing with the Houses be larger than life. Without knowing whats changing in your setting, its hard to make suggestions about demonstating the status quo.
#3 naturax Sep 01, 2010 8:55:36	Thanks for this, Gurv, that's a fine suggestion and definitely something I'm going to use. I tend to have a hard time remembering the "personality" aspect of the world I create: NPCs have allegiances and feelings, not just idealogies. The "Big Ideas" I have is for the Twelve to gain access to the Delirium Stone and somehow activate it to make it look as though House Tarkanan has initiated a huge attack on the Dragonmarked Houses (and therefore the infrastructure that makes the world turn). This would convince a dying Boranel that the Korth Edicts should be dissolved so that the Dragonmarked Houses can defend themselves and eliminate the aberrant threat: essentially starting a new War of the Mark which would permenantly solidify the power of the Twelve. (If that doesn't make any sense, please tell me so that I can fix it. Pretty please.) I worry, however, that my new players won't appreciate the gravity of the situation, or, even worse, it just won't make any sense to them because I haven't established the status quo. Halp!
#4 Gurv Sep 04, 2010 8:17:29	Well, depending on how much game time you want to put into it, I think you should focus on the legal aspects of the Korth Edicts. The inability of the dragonmarked houses to own land or have armies is very important, as is their inability to marry into nobility. Its about the only thing that keeps them from taking over the world. Checks and balances and all that. King Boranel doesn't actually have the authority to dissolve the Korth Edicts beyond the border of Breland. Have him do so. Now you can show your players the status quo by comparing it to what happens in Breland. First the houses will start amassing weapons and soldiers to deal with Tarkanan, which should be a nice destructive battle with lots of innocent lives lost. Then they should begin hunting down individual aberrants, witch hunt style, while Tarkanan regroups and establishes a stronghold elsewhere. In the meantime, the wealth of the houses is going to give them even more influence than ever, since they can marry into nobility and hold land. Soon they can block and create law much more directly. If Tarkanan establishes a stronghold in another nation, Aundair perhaps, the dragonmarked houses will turn their gaze that way. Now fielding a huge army and controlling the nobility, they can declare war. It doesn't matter that Aundair isn't willingly harboring Tarkanan. They can either allow the dragonmarked houses to do what they want and dissolve the Edicts, or face the prospect of warfare against Breland. Without dragonmark support. That should show your players why the status quo works, and motivate them to reestablish it.
#5 naturax Sep 05, 2010 20:47:28	I see - you want me to show the players why things have settled into the way they are now by showing them how it breaks when the rules are changed. I hadn't considered that possibility at all. I am happy to spend plenty of game time on this, which is why I want to treat the subject matter carefully. I'm going to introduce my PCs to a mouthpiece of the Twelve in the next game, and I'd like for her to be able to make the case that the Dragonmarked Houses serve a noble function in the world. I've painted them thus far as purely evil Megacorporations, but I want to make things more complicated for the PCs. It's easy for them to say that the aberrants, those poor souls, are driven mad by their dangerous marks and need to be held in check, but I don't know how to justify seizing power that has thus far been in the hands of the nobility. How would you make that case?
#6 Popesixtus Sep 06, 2010 4:15:10	When I explain dragonmarks and dragonmarked houses to friends who are new to Eberron, I compare the houses to any business wanting to keep copyright protection on their products. That is neither good nor evil, simply good business. In this case, the "product" is their dragonmarks, which is a HUGE thing to keep protected since the magic of dragonmarks is what makes the world go round. You can't have just anyone wielding power like that. Dragonmarked houses do a good job using their dragonmarks for good, making all sorts of conveniences for people (airships, trains, newspapers, self-propelled farming and cleaning equipment, etc.) that would be completely impossible otherwise. What has House Tarkanan done for society? Nothing. It is nothing personal against House Tarkanan or any other aberrent marked persons (like non-bloodline PCs), but dragonmarks contain far too much power to simply leave unchecked and unregulated. The Twelve falls prey to mortal failings like anything else. But in all, the Twelve work for the common good of all, and Eberron is better for having them around. Or, so goes the pitch :D.For this to be persuasive, however, the power of dragonmarks in the world has to be extremely tangible. If PCs have dragonmarks for whatever reason, make them feel it. Also, if you really want the PCs to feel at least a little sympathy for the houses, turn the attention away from the "megacorporation" and to the ground-level magewrights who benefit society in the way described above. A Cannith maker using his mark to fix street lanterns to maintain safe streets at night, or a Lyrandar wind rider who is helping a farmer with his crops both look like saints compared to a House Tarkanan urchin withering someone's flesh with a touch.
#7 naturax Sep 06, 2010 9:09:26	Thanks for this! I should also point to House Jorasco. It's hard to find fault with advancing medical techniques. (Or so goes the argument!)
#8 Popesixtus Sep 06, 2010 13:15:47	Indeed. Plus, halflings are cute. As you laid out the situation with a representative of the Twelve, I imagined that this person would be like a 1950s pitchman with the soft music in the background talking about the conveniences of the modern home. Behold, the washing machine. Those commercials sell stuff, but they also sell a whole way of life, just like the Twelve are selling a vision of society full of safety, stability, and convenience. They are NOT selling true freedom, however, so it would be nice to pose a similar counterpoint in your game. I hope your situation turns out great, and the players really get into it.
#9 Gurv Sep 06, 2010 17:45:11	Popesixtus has exactly the right idea. You seem to paint everything in black and white. Nothing is ever black and white, especially in Eberron. You have to show your players why everyone loves the Dragonmarked Houses- and they do! The Houses have worked hard to bring things to the point that they're at, and they have every right to want to profit from what they've created! Of course, they can't really justify doing anything just to keep the monopoly on certain things. And even if the aberrants do pose a threat to them or to the rest of the world, they can't really justify purging the world of people who were born that way. But they can try. Aberrants are rarely wholesome in mind or body, and their powers are not productive the way pure dragonmarks are. So there is plenty of reason to fear them.
#10 naturax Sep 07, 2010 12:10:20	I absolutely want to create a messy, grey-vs-grey situation to throw my players into, though I suffer from black/white thinking IRL which makes it tricky for me to run the kind of game I have in mind. Thus, I'm really grateful for all of this help, since in my mind aberrant="good" and dragonmarked="evil" and I don't want to make it that easy for my players at all, ever. Here's a challenge, though: the players have just been captured by this representative of the Twelve, so I expect that the PCs are going to start with an extremely antagonistic attitude. I might as well lay out the whole situation for everyone: the players recovered the Delirium Stone (an artifact used by the aberrant army during the War of the Mark) at the request of a professor from Morgrave, but they were intercepted by House Tarkanan agents who were killing to kill the PCs for it when they didn't hand it over. The attack failed, and PCs were willing to talk out the situation, so they met with a leader of House Tarkanan who made a plea for the stone. At that meeting the PCs were attacked by a small group of elite dragonmarked agents and had an exciting chase scene through Sharn, but I used my Plot Hammer to show that a bunch of chumps (even if they are The Heroes) don't stand a chance against the combined might of the Dragonmarked Houses. So the PCs ended the last session getting captured and I'm going to start the next game with them waking up and getting the talk from this representitive of the Twelve. She does want the PCs on her side (it being hard to find good help these days - though a better reason would help me out immensely), which is why she's making her plea. Not sure if there is any way I can make the situation grey-vs-grey instead of grey-vs-black, but here's hoping.
#11 Popesixtus Sep 07, 2010 14:11:08	It looks like you've shown the PCs the stick, so it's time to show them the carrot. Dragonmarked houses have all the resources in the world to give to PCs. My PCs love magic items (who doesn't!), so maybe have your PCs wake up with extra little Eberron-themed magic items at their sides (Cannith goggles, alchemical stuff, a warforged component if there is a warforged PC, etc.). Then you can have your representative apologize and explain that in a war, sometimes things have to be done. The Delirium Stone would be a hell of a lot more beneficial in safe hands. The key will be to break the notion that aberrent marks = good. We all love our David vs. Goliath stories, but that is not the case here. Aberrent dragonmarks are dangerous. One way to really bring the point home would play off the very guards that captured the PCs. They were mean and harsh in battle. But under calmer conditions, they readily show the PCs disfiguring scars and withered, unhealable body parts that they got merely by making contact with an aberrent-marked person. The Houses do not want this war, and they would save the people if they could... however, the marks themselves are irredeemable and have to go, no matter the cost. By way of general "greyness" advice: The best way to introduce grey into any campaign, and Eberron in particular, is to humanize it. Every organization, cabal, secret society, etc. is made up of people. Even the biggest, nastiest, most faceless-seeming organizations employ good people who have their own reasons for doing what they do. Flesh out the people on either side of your conflict, and you'll have your grey.
#12 naturax Sep 07, 2010 21:26:35	That's amazing advice, Popesixtus, and exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I really love being able to get help for my campaigns on these boards.
#13 Popesixtus Sep 07, 2010 23:24:11	Definitely. Thanks for posting your stuff as well. It has my brain churning out ideas for my own Eberron sessions starting up soon. Let us know how it goes.
#14 Gurv Sep 07, 2010 23:27:30	I always find it interesting when a person or group is supported based soley on the fact that persecution has occured. Just because there are some people with aberrant marks who have done nothing wrong and are perfectly innocent doesn't mean that the War of the Mark was wrong. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that people with aberrant marks are dangerous. The marks often cause pain and discomfort to the bearer, ranging from blemishes to disfigurement. Whether it is the pain and social stigma that drives aberrants mad isn't really important. The fact is that they have deadly powers, tend to be antisocial, and are quite simply not a contributive part of society. The same thing happened with the Silver Purge. Yes, there were innocents harmed and some terrible things happened. But that doesn't change the fact that the majority of lycanthropes were bloodthirsty and evil, that they slaughtered thousands, or that they literally corrupted the souls of those who survived. Just because in both cases the winners got to write the history doesn't mean that they didn't have just causes. Propaganda is biased, yes. But not always wrong. Maybe you should consider the possibility that the dragonmarked houses are the good guys (with a few corrupt individuals in positions of power) and that the aberrants and House Tarkanan are the bad guys (with some misguided innocents among them).
#15 Popesixtus Sep 08, 2010 1:50:32	I wouldn't go as far as to portray the dragonmarked houses as "good guys". At the core of the houses is the will to order and control. Therefore, they will always be active either when they feel threatened or when they see an opportunity to establish firmer order/ seize more control. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. I think low level characters should play in that middle ground for a while. When the party gets more powerful, that's when the real s*** should hit the fan, one way or the other.
#16 naturax Sep 09, 2010 8:32:37	You two raise a lot of points that I want to address. It's funny you mention the Silver Purge, because I was initially tempted to start the campaign with an adventure that made reference to it specifically so that I could draw the analogies between it and the War of the Mark. The idea was to have a special showing of art from a comtemporary genius from out in the Reaches that depicted the Purge in a brutally honest way, much to the chagrin of Silver Flame apologetics. The PCs would have been friends of the artist and asked to provide extra security at the event, which was purposefully chosen to occur on Fathen's Fall. I decided to start with the Forgotten Forge instead (albeit heavily modified to send them in the direction of the Delirium Stone) because I didn't want to start the game by depicting worshippers of the Silver Flame as violent zealots who destroy art that doesn't mesh with their beliefs. With regards to making it possible that the War of the Mark was justified, I absolutely want to leave that question hanging. Though some NPCs may feel differently, I don't want the PCs (at this stage of the game anyway) to have a clear idea of whether aberrant marks, or true dragonmarks for that point, are inherently 'evil' or not. In fact this raises another idea that recently came to mind, which may substitute as my Big Idea for the game (which I want to start hinting at now if I decide to go for it): make ALL dragonmarks, aberrant and true, have the same source/origin, make that origin unwholesome, and therefore have true dragonmarks be just as prone to madness as 'aberrant' marks. Any thoughts on what that origin could be? Daelkyr seems obvious to me, but I don't know how that'll jive with other 'facts' in the setting. On the other hand, Gurv seems to suggest that aberrant marks are objectively evil, which is fine, but I really want to feature the fact that Breland attempted a super soldier program using aberrant individuals, and in fact the survivors of that project started House Tarkanan. What I've done so far is paint the leaders of House Tarkanan as patriots: they love Breland, they love Boronel, and they feel that the influence of the Houses (specifically Medani) was what got the aberrant super soldier project violently canned, and what's worse, they are threatening to effectively usurp the throne from its rightful line of rulers. Now sure how I can tie that in just yet, though. A big question along this line, since it's something I think my players are likely to investigate: do Siberys shard focus items work for aberrant marks too? I know by canon you need to build those items with Khyber shards instead, but what if it's just a well guarded secret that there is no 'scientific' difference between the marks? Certainly the Houses have the clout to enforce that opinion, and surely no one would give any real credibility to an aberrant claiming otherwise. But is it ridiculous to claim it has always been the case because of some obvious fact that everyone takes for granted in the setting that I've forgotten about? A big challenge that remains for me is that I've thrown the players into the middle of this mess by virtue of the fact that they had the Delirium Stone, but now that it's taken away I'm not sure if they are going to want to stay involved. Furthermore, I've demonstrated that there are larger powers at work here, but the last thing I want to do is make them feel useless. So how can I get them emotionally involved in the situation? How can I give them opportunities to shift the imbalance of power one way or the other? How can I make them feel like heroes? I'm looking for your suggestions! Thanks!
#17 Gurv Sep 09, 2010 13:28:33	I was just trying to be Devil's Advocate and argue the opposite of what I've been hearing. Obviously, a good story is made when the characters discover that the status quo isn't as legitimate as it seems to be. Supporting the underdogs, and all that. But that doesn't change the facts that there was a threat from the lycanthropes during the Purge, and chances are that there was a threat from the aberrant marks of old. That said, I don't think that there is any true black and white in Eberron. I consider it one of the core concepts, and I throw alignment out the window when I DM. I do, however, think that aberrant marks are about as wholesome as rot. You can argue for it having a vital place in the world but wholesome? No. Your interest in providing a source/origin for dragonmarks blazed out at me like fire. I just started a new campaign last night. It was somewhat spontaneous and I basically sent them through the jungle to explore a Xen'drik ruin I designed and never used. One of the characters is a bugbear artificer who wants to bring the goblinoid race back into equal standing with the humans. His theory is that the dragonmarks gave those races an advantage, but no one knows where they came from. If he did, he might be able to duplicate the circumstances and gain marks for his own people. He suspects the dragons were involved: its makes sense considering that dragonmarks are part of the Prophecy and the dragons are always involved with that. He doesn't buy the idea that the dragons didn't see it coming, he thinks they're behind it. He's traced the dragonmarks back as far as he can. The Mark of Death was first, and the elves came from Xen'drik. He's looking for Qabalrin lore that might lead him to discover what the dragons did. Its a long shot, a crackpot theory at best. But I'm thinking about making it have seeds of truth.
#18 naturax Sep 09, 2010 13:51:29	I'm glad you're playing Devil's Advocate! I really value being able to use these boards to brainstorm. It's funny that you mention the dragons since I had also toyed with the idea of saying that the dragons are responsible for the dragonmarks. I kinda like the idea of the dragonmarked claiming that they are literally marked by the dragons, hinting that they share their blood. Run with me on this. We can blame it on the Prophesy somehow. But is it conceivable that a couple thousand years ago agents of the Chamber started mixing their blood with the common races in order to produce dragonmarks? Maybe it wasn't a reliable process and they added aberrant marks into the mix? What would the consequences of this be today, in addition to the obvious? There's a lot written about the dragonmarks being manifestations of the Prophesy that are being watched very closely by the dragons, but how can I use this to turn my PCs into heroes?
#19 Gurv Sep 09, 2010 19:17:17	It makes sense to me that a renegade faction of the dragons might have been involved. Its obvious that the majority of dragons do not know; in fact they themselves seem to be trying to figure out how it might have happened. I don't like the blood-mixing thing. That comes later. I think the dragons are a kind of blind spot for the Prophecy- they're too closely linked to the Progenitors to get too close to it. Thats why they're always manipulating others into manipulating the Prophecy. Otherwise its not unlike trying to edit a book in which you're the main protagonist. Your every action is paradox. But creating minions that are easy to see in the Prophecy? Vague is an understatement when reading the future. If you could literally mark individuals who are fated to play a greater role history, it would give you a huge edge. Like a +10 bonus to your Read Prophecy check! So here's what I think. Some dragons figured it out, but knew it would never be sanctioned by Argonnessen. So they came up with the plan, which spanned centuries, to plant the seeds. This being a ritual beyond the comprehension of mortals. It would require a massive amount of power, to fundamentally alter the Prophecy this way. These dragons were behind much of the offensive blood-necromancy that the giants studied. They were involved in the enslaving of the elves who ultimately served as guinea pigs to the giants. And they planted the seeds of the quori invasion as well. And then they pushed. Whatever else happened during that cataclysm, its ultimate purpose was to gather the energy needed to complete the dragon's plan. Of course, the fact that Xen'drik was blasted into the dark ages was expected and worked to cover the truth deeply. Even so, it took ages for the seeds of Prophecy within these elves to grow and present themselves. Thats what I was brewing up for my game.
#20 night_falcon_02 Sep 12, 2010 15:26:22	A very interesting discussion indeed.  The idea of the dragons causing the mark to start forming to watch the players involved is about as conspiritorial as it gets.  To take it a step further though what if the dragons had forgotten this information somehow, maybe as a side effect of the ritual used to create the marks themselves? If the pc's were to find some sort of proof that this had ever happened it could possibly both put them at odds with dragonmarked houses, including takarnan, and the dragons themselves.  Or even end up being courted by them.  If even one of the Dragonmarked houses had proof of this occuring and had a chance to recreate it it would throw everything off kilter and out of balance.  Imagine any single house being able to have a way to possibly tap directly into prophecy it's something that could turn even the most noble in the house into people you for certain wouldn't want to deal with.  Even if it's a ritual they would never be able to recreate it could cause a hornets nest of problems for everyone. Innerhouse politics could break down as well as the stability between the houses and thier relations with the other nations.  The houses may not be able to field armies but they are able to withhold services and create great problems for basically everyone else.  It could even go so far as a complete breakdown of services across the greater Khorvaire.