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Invokers in Eberron

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
paideia
Dec 22, 2008 7:17:18 It seems to me that the description for invokers revealed in the Dragon preview brings up some issues in an Eberron campaign.

As far as I understand it the "Gods" of Eberron are not as active as their counterparts in the regular DnD world (or Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance for that matter). Whereas the regular clerics and paladins from 4th edition are eminently suited for the Eberron world this invoker class reminds me more of the old-fashioned approach to a holy warrior drawing his power directly from a divine source. As far as I recall most of the entities, that people draw power from in Eberron are - shall we say - less than benign (i.e. Rajahs, Khyber, Xoriat etc.).

Does this necessitate a change in the Eberron cosmology or will we simply have to "tweak" the flavour of the class?

Any ideas or profound thoughts?
#2
rauric
Dec 22, 2008 8:12:45 It is all about belief. If the invoker feels he/she is drawing power from the Shadow then it just happens IMO. I am not familiar with the fluff of the Invoker class though.
#3
herogoeth
Dec 22, 2008 12:49:13 It seems that the flavor of the Invoker is basically identical to the flavor of the Favored Soul from 3.5. It's pretty easy to have it fit in Eberron.
#4
chrys
Dec 22, 2008 21:18:27 When the book comes out out I'm going to make a storm-marked Half-elf that draws his powers from the 1st born and Karkens... but is still goin to be an aethar:D
#5
Hellcow
Dec 24, 2008 12:34:11
As far as I understand it the "Gods" of Eberron are not as active as their counterparts in the regular DnD world (or Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance for that matter).

The critical difference between the divine powers of Eberron and divine powers of other settings is that you can never physically interact with the powers of Eberron. Dol Dorn will never come down to Eberron and hit someone, and if he exists on a plane, it's a higher plane than any mortal can reach. The people who believe in the Sovereigns are utterly convinced that the Sovereigns affect every aspect of the world - that the storm is the wrath of the Devourer, that good fortune is Olladra's blessing, and that Onatar watches over every forge. It's not that the gods are any less active; it's that it's difficult to PROVE their involvement to the skeptic.

...this invoker class reminds me more of the old-fashioned approach to a holy warrior drawing his power directly from a divine source. As far as I recall most of the entities, that people draw power from in Eberron are - shall we say - less than benign (i.e. Rajahs, Khyber, Xoriat etc.).

Actually, the Silver Flame and the Undying Court are both confirmed sources of benign divine energy that directly empower their followers. It's just unclear if they are "gods". Divine warriors of the Valenar believe that they are directly empowered by spirits of their ancestors. A paladin of the Blood of Vol draws on the spark of divinity within his own blood. And for that matter, the followers of Sovereigns and Six also invoke their gods for their powers, and BELIEVE that the magic that results is a direct result of the favor of these gods; it's simply the case that a skeptic can say "But how do you KNOW you're not just drawing on the ambient magical power of the Ring of Siberys?" The paladin of Dol Arrah feels divine energy flow through her blade when she calls on Dol Arrah to lend strength to her strike. SHE knows with crystal clarity that this is the light of the goddess lending strength to her arm. But Dol Arrah herself will never appear to physically join the battle, and if it is possible for the paladin to meet Dol Arrah, it will only happen after she has died and her soul has been cleansed and passed through Dolurrh to whatever unknown mystery lies beyond.

So the gods are not PHYSICALLY active, and as a result it is possible to debate their existence and to have schisms within a faith; the god will never come down and say "UR doin it wrong". But their followers believe that they exist and are active in the world, and that they are the ultimate sources of divine power.
#6
smug
Dec 25, 2008 13:58:33
Does this necessitate a change in the Eberron cosmology or will we simply have to "tweak" the flavour of the class?
Any ideas or profound thoughts?

Actually, to me, Eberron seems like an IDEAL place for invokers. As Hellcow has said, the "distant gods" concept is purely a point of gods not physically manifesting; vassals firmly believe that the gods are present in every aspect of life, and how can you prove that they are wrong? So once you set that aside, what defines the invoker is the fact that they follow an entire pantheon as opposed to a single deity. Well, this is EXACTLY WHAT VASSALS HAVE ALWAYS DONE. IIRC, Eberron was the first WotC 3E setting that actually allowed clerics TO worship a pantheon instead of a single deity. Both Sovereigns and Six are tailor-made to be used by invokers. I suppose you could work it with the Undying Court as well... but essentially, the Invoker is actually something 4E Eberron needs, because the single-deity cleric is a poor match to the pantheon-worshipping faith of Sovereigns and Six.
#7
PJammaGod
Dec 29, 2008 9:27:58
the god will never come down and say "UR doin it wrong"

As the year draws to the close I have been looking for some of the best quotes of the year to add to my tally. And without further ado I come across a fresh one and it's gem. Probably one of the best quotes in regards to Eberron's religion and something important to remember when people start asking questions about how the corruption inside the Silver Flame can exist.

Anywho tangents aside, the Ivoker seems rather interesting. A divine controller that would be most adept working with a group of Silver Flame inquisitors looking for remnant lycanthropes, seeking to purge their evil from the mortal realms ;) .
#8
salla
Dec 29, 2008 22:08:57
As the year draws to the close I have been looking for some of the best quotes of the year to add to my tally. And without further ado I come across a fresh one and it's gem. Probably one of the best quotes in regards to Eberron's religion and something important to remember when people start asking questions about how the corruption inside the Silver Flame can exist.

Anywho tangents aside, the Ivoker seems rather interesting. A divine controller that would be most adept working with a group of Silver Flame inquisitors looking for remnant lycanthropes, seeking to purge their evil from the mortal realms ;) .

Of course, not all lycanthropes are evil, but hey, 'Silver Flame' and 'logic' rarely go in the same sentence.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 paideia Dec 22, 2008 7:17:18	It seems to me that the description for invokers revealed in the Dragon preview brings up some issues in an Eberron campaign. As far as I understand it the "Gods" of Eberron are not as active as their counterparts in the regular DnD world (or Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance for that matter). Whereas the regular clerics and paladins from 4th edition are eminently suited for the Eberron world this invoker class reminds me more of the old-fashioned approach to a holy warrior drawing his power directly from a divine source. As far as I recall most of the entities, that people draw power from in Eberron are - shall we say - less than benign (i.e. Rajahs, Khyber, Xoriat etc.). Does this necessitate a change in the Eberron cosmology or will we simply have to "tweak" the flavour of the class? Any ideas or profound thoughts?
#2 rauric Dec 22, 2008 8:12:45	It is all about belief. If the invoker feels he/she is drawing power from the Shadow then it just happens IMO. I am not familiar with the fluff of the Invoker class though.
#3 herogoeth Dec 22, 2008 12:49:13	It seems that the flavor of the Invoker is basically identical to the flavor of the Favored Soul from 3.5. It's pretty easy to have it fit in Eberron.
#4 chrys Dec 22, 2008 21:18:27	When the book comes out out I'm going to make a storm-marked Half-elf that draws his powers from the 1st born and Karkens... but is still goin to be an aethar:D
#5 Hellcow Dec 24, 2008 12:34:11	As far as I understand it the "Gods" of Eberron are not as active as their counterparts in the regular DnD world (or Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance for that matter). The critical difference between the divine powers of Eberron and divine powers of other settings is that you can never physically interact with the powers of Eberron. Dol Dorn will never come down to Eberron and hit someone, and if he exists on a plane, it's a higher plane than any mortal can reach. The people who believe in the Sovereigns are utterly convinced that the Sovereigns affect every aspect of the world - that the storm is the wrath of the Devourer, that good fortune is Olladra's blessing, and that Onatar watches over every forge. It's not that the gods are any less active; it's that it's difficult to PROVE their involvement to the skeptic. ...this invoker class reminds me more of the old-fashioned approach to a holy warrior drawing his power directly from a divine source. As far as I recall most of the entities, that people draw power from in Eberron are - shall we say - less than benign (i.e. Rajahs, Khyber, Xoriat etc.). Actually, the Silver Flame and the Undying Court are both confirmed sources of benign divine energy that directly empower their followers. It's just unclear if they are "gods". Divine warriors of the Valenar believe that they are directly empowered by spirits of their ancestors. A paladin of the Blood of Vol draws on the spark of divinity within his own blood. And for that matter, the followers of Sovereigns and Six also invoke their gods for their powers, and BELIEVE that the magic that results is a direct result of the favor of these gods; it's simply the case that a skeptic can say "But how do you KNOW you're not just drawing on the ambient magical power of the Ring of Siberys?" The paladin of Dol Arrah feels divine energy flow through her blade when she calls on Dol Arrah to lend strength to her strike. SHE knows with crystal clarity that this is the light of the goddess lending strength to her arm. But Dol Arrah herself will never appear to physically join the battle, and if it is possible for the paladin to meet Dol Arrah, it will only happen after she has died and her soul has been cleansed and passed through Dolurrh to whatever unknown mystery lies beyond. So the gods are not PHYSICALLY active, and as a result it is possible to debate their existence and to have schisms within a faith; the god will never come down and say "UR doin it wrong". But their followers believe that they exist and are active in the world, and that they are the ultimate sources of divine power.
#6 smug Dec 25, 2008 13:58:33	Does this necessitate a change in the Eberron cosmology or will we simply have to "tweak" the flavour of the class? Any ideas or profound thoughts? Actually, to me, Eberron seems like an IDEAL place for invokers. As Hellcow has said, the "distant gods" concept is purely a point of gods not physically manifesting; vassals firmly believe that the gods are present in every aspect of life, and how can you prove that they are wrong? So once you set that aside, what defines the invoker is the fact that they follow an entire pantheon as opposed to a single deity. Well, this is EXACTLY WHAT VASSALS HAVE ALWAYS DONE. IIRC, Eberron was the first WotC 3E setting that actually allowed clerics TO worship a pantheon instead of a single deity. Both Sovereigns and Six are tailor-made to be used by invokers. I suppose you could work it with the Undying Court as well... but essentially, the Invoker is actually something 4E Eberron needs, because the single-deity cleric is a poor match to the pantheon-worshipping faith of Sovereigns and Six.
#7 PJammaGod Dec 29, 2008 9:27:58	the god will never come down and say "UR doin it wrong" As the year draws to the close I have been looking for some of the best quotes of the year to add to my tally. And without further ado I come across a fresh one and it's gem. Probably one of the best quotes in regards to Eberron's religion and something important to remember when people start asking questions about how the corruption inside the Silver Flame can exist. Anywho tangents aside, the Ivoker seems rather interesting. A divine controller that would be most adept working with a group of Silver Flame inquisitors looking for remnant lycanthropes, seeking to purge their evil from the mortal realms ;) .
#8 salla Dec 29, 2008 22:08:57	As the year draws to the close I have been looking for some of the best quotes of the year to add to my tally. And without further ado I come across a fresh one and it's gem. Probably one of the best quotes in regards to Eberron's religion and something important to remember when people start asking questions about how the corruption inside the Silver Flame can exist. Anywho tangents aside, the Ivoker seems rather interesting. A divine controller that would be most adept working with a group of Silver Flame inquisitors looking for remnant lycanthropes, seeking to purge their evil from the mortal realms ;) . Of course, not all lycanthropes are evil, but hey, 'Silver Flame' and 'logic' rarely go in the same sentence.