In my Eberron games, I have the Khoravar take offense if they are called half-elf (or half-man for that matter). I noticed the books and novels use half-elf pretty freely - probably not least because it's easier than going into a diatribe every time the issue arises, especially in a fictional story. Obviously not an issue of the utmost importance; just wondering what some others think.
Also the Khoravar of Khorvaire seem to have more than a little pride in their race, based on some of the background info.
In novels the term half-elf is hardly ever seen as insulting. NPCs who insult half-elf based on their heritage usually use much more degenitory words. Maybe it used to be insulting, but just as some insultive descriptives in RL became proud descriptors, so might half-elf be regarded as normal now-a-days in Eberron. In Khorvaire of course, country is more important than species, and most citizens of the human kingdoms wouldn't care less whether you are a half-elf, human, dwarf or elf. The elves of Valenar and Aeranel might think differently since they place such value on ancestors, but they probably do not treat half-elves differently than other non-elves (with the possible exception of half-elves with an elf parent from Valenar/Aeranel origin).
It would be like introducing yourself to someone and them calling you by something other than your name or a derivative of it.
"Hello, my name is Anthony."
"Hi Tony."
If Anthony wanted to be called Tony, he would have introduced himself as Tony, no?
It might not be insulting, per say, but it's probably rude.
On the other hand, I can guess why in sourcebooks or novels this is never mentioned or hinted at. It's probably because the proper term for the race in Eberron is not well-known amongst the novel side of the DnD brand managers and such. Also, because "half-elf" is plastered all over the rules, and the game at-large knows them by that name.
Unusual for an ethnic minority to be so little concerned with political correctness...
I think I'm getting this impression because I believe it was said somewhere that half-elfs first came into existance because the Elves first attempted to influence human nobles by mating with them and, over the long run, replacing them with elven heirs. Except that their half-elven progeny ended up being more like humans than the Elves liked, and they gave up on the idea. (The implication being that Elves no longer mate with humans all that often, because they only did it when they saw it as a political advantage, but now no longer do so because in practice this provided them with no advantage.)
If all that's true, I could easily picture a Khoravar being upset at being called a "half-elf" because it would mean he's some sort of outsider to his own racial heritage, a "bastard child" instead of a true-bred Khoravar.
Then again, individuals are individuals. Some may be insulted at "half-elf" but like the idea of being called "half-human". Or vice versa, some might enjoy being called "half-elf" but not "half-human". And some may not care at all either way.
However, I think intent is also a factor. I think someone who usually wouldn't care one way or another what people call his race in conversation, might have his feather's ruffled by an arrogant elf if they said something like "A half-elf such as you could never understand." An insult is an insult, regardless of what words are used to convey it.
Unusual for an ethnic minority to be so little concerned with political correctness...
In a world with dozens of different species all tightly integrated in local society I doubt most Khorovar would even consider themselves an ethnic minority unless they are from Thrane and living in Breland ;) Although, maybe some fringe human groups might actively dislike half-elves due to the half-elves position of power amongst the Dragonmarked Houses.
As for most half-elves having half-elf parentage, true, but Thorn from Queen of Stone has a mother from Aeranel, and Valenar elves rule over humans, so I suspect there is still a fair share of half-elves born from a union between elf and human.
Come to think of it, even 'integrated' is the wrong word. There's a great deal of voluntary segregation that goes on even in cosmopolitan places like Sharn (especially in cosmopolitan places like Sharn, because when you come to a new place in which almost everyone you meet is not like you, the tendency is to cleave to family, and by extension, anyone who has common roots). Just because an elf and a hobgoblin may work in the same factory doesn't mean that they're 'integrated' in their society, by any means.
Also, point of order: the only place in the world with dozens of different species in close proximity is in Droaam. Humans, elves, eladrin, half-elves, changelings, shifters, kalashtar, orcs, half-orcs, tieflings, and genasi are all part of the same species (halflings may also be, but it can't be proven as there is no evidence of successful crossbreeding in their case). The only demihuman races that are demonstrably not a variation on homo sapiens are dwarves, who are made out of rock, and gnomes, who are descended from fairy chihuahuas.
I'm not so sure I agree on your logic Chris. By that extension, dragons are a variation on homo sapiens too, and from there every living thing ever.
Dragons being the embodiment of ultimate magic can breed with whatever they like. The same rationale can't be applied to elves/eladrin (because it doesn't also apply to gnomes).
On the other hand, I can guess why in sourcebooks or novels this is never mentioned or hinted at. It's probably because the proper term for the race in Eberron is not well-known amongst the novel side of the DnD brand managers and such. Also, because "half-elf" is plastered all over the rules, and the game at-large knows them by that name.
I'm afraid this is most likely the case. I myself prefer the idea that Khoravar is a widespread term, and the standard term used for half-elves born to half-elf parents. However, it's never been something I've been able to push into the game to the degree I wanted; in fact, I don't believe that it's used in either of the 4E sourcebooks.
Also, point of order: the only place in the world with dozens of different species in close proximity is in Droaam. Humans, elves, eladrin, half-elves, changelings, shifters, kalashtar, orcs, half-orcs, tieflings, and genasi are all part of the same species (halflings may also be, but it can't be proven as there is no evidence of successful crossbreeding in their case). The only demihuman races that are demonstrably not a variation on homo sapiens are dwarves, who are made out of rock, and gnomes, who are descended from fairy chihuahuas.
You do realize the term 'demi'-human has not been used since 3E, because if there is one degenotory comment it is calling them 'demi'-human ;)
Also, if you really want to stick to one of the RL scientific definition of species, dwarves are also humans since they can actually crossbreed with humans (there are references in 2E material to half-dwarves, but they take to their dwarven parentage and except for being a bit taller, are considered full dwarves game mechanically).
Of course, in a world of magic, using the RL scientific definition is going to fail, just as it fails in RL except in a broader sense (and it definitely fails for single cellular organisms and virusses).
As for integration, I disagree. From the source material I get the impression that all sapient races in Eberron actually define their society by cultural heritage. In a couple of cases that cultural heritage is defined by race, although even for races such as goblins and elves the line is blurred since an elf from House Phiarlann would feel only a slight connection with a Valenar elf. More often then not the cultural heritage is defined by nation or House.
Last time I saw Khoravar mentioned was in the Races of Eberron book and Players Guide to Eberron, way back when. So yeah, hasn't had some recent usage to my knowledge.
Not too suprising considering they also more or less dropped the terms moon elf, gold elf and gold dwarf from most official products in FR. While using different terms for the same things in a world can be a great addition fluff-wise, it can also create a lot of confusion.
As for integration, I disagree. From the source material I get the impression that all sapient races in Eberron actually define their society by cultural heritage. In a couple of cases that cultural heritage is defined by race, although even for races such as goblins and elves the line is blurred since an elf from House Phiarlann would feel only a slight connection with a Valenar elf. More often then not the cultural heritage is defined by nation or House.
It's still not integrated, at least not in the sense that, say, Star Trek is integrated. For instance, in Bassingthwaite's first trilogy, you have the kalashtar 'ghetto' in Sharn - a subculture that not only isn't at all integrated, it doesn't even want to be. And I get the distinct impression (from that book, as well as from the Sharn sourcebook) that this is not a unique situation. Even among humans of different backgrounds, there is a lack of mixing (see Keith's novels for that). It's the old adage that you don't get a melting pot, you get a stew - and in many cases, the stew is made with ingredients that are best cooked at different temperatures and that don't really taste good together. The most cosmopolitan place in Khorvaire is also one of the most fragmented. On the other hand, you have four nations that are culturally homogenous: Darguun, Thrane, Valenar, and Zilargo. Perhaps not coincidentally, these nations have an overwhelming proponderance of a single race.
As in real life, wherever you get a large percentage of other races, you end up with subcultures that never completely merge with the dominant one. An elf from Breland may think of themselves as Brelish - but they still think of themselves as a Brelish elf, as distinct culturally from a Brelish human as they are from an Aundairan elf. To prove it, let's pick a random number out of the air and say that a generous 1/3 of all half-elves born in Khorvaire come from a human and an elf parent. Now let's go and carve out that one-third from the population percentages of each of the nations to determine the percentage of Khoravar vs. low-generation half-elves. With only two exceptions, the number of actual mixed-breed half-elves at that ratio is lower than the percentage of elves, generally by at least 1.5:1. Granting that the 1/3 ratio is probably overly generous (indeed, I suspect that even 1/10 would be pushing it), and these numbers indicate that interracial pairings - the most defining mark of integration - just don't happen all that much.
I spoke of exceptions, of course: those are the Eldeen Reaches and the Lhazaar Principalities, which both have substantially higher ratios of half-elves in them than anywhere else, and a surprisingly low number of elves. These are also places that we've seen from novels to have a higher sense of monoculture than any of the individual nations. Places like this, born of adversity, are where the integration actually is taking place: places with small yet diverse communities, where people can't afford to look at differences and so cultural assimilation takes place at a more basic level than you see in larger cosmopolitan communities.
Perhaps the best food analogy is actually neither fondue nor stew, but pizza - you have a plenitude of discrete ingredients covered over by a thin veneer of monoculture. Ideally the flavors will mix completely, but most of the time you can still distinguish them, and if you just threw the ingredients on willy-nilly, there may be bits of it that are revolting...
As for RL, I find RL comparisons weak when used to explain a situation in the setting as opposed to using it to quickly describing an aspect. For one thong, so-called "racial" differences in RL are all based on cultural heritage and none are based on biology. Biologically speaking the differences between a Central African, Indian, Mexican and European are insignificant. As such we simply have no examples for comparison purposes in RL about different biological races living in the same nation for millenia. Still, there are ample of examples of cultures merging in RL after a couple of generations (Celts/Saxons/Normans in England, or Dutch, English, German, Irish in USA). Of course, there are also examples of cultures that keep seperate for generations, but more often then not that segration is based on active persecution and/or discrimination by the majority and kept alive through religion. Even then, the differences are more often than not percieved, and hardly as big as between different nations. So if you use RL as an example, then after a couple of generations, let alone the millenia we are speaking off, cultures without outside interference do tend to merge.
For another, we are in full charge of the world. If we want something to be fully integrated, then that is what happens. This of course, means that in your version of Eberron, the races might not be particularly integrated. It is just not mine version of Eberron. I see little proof for that in official material either. All I see is that different races prefer to live in certain environments, and hence tend to congregate a bit in the same neighborhoods. It is also this integration, the fact that being an elf is secondary to being a Brelander, that many people cite as a reason on why they like Eberron so much.
the fact that being an elf is secondary to being a Brelander
Brelish, not Brelander :P
And I would just like to point out that my argument is not based on some sort of personal preference or an unreasonable mapping of reality onto fiction, but is based completely on what I've read in the source material (specifically the Dreaming Dark, Dragon Below, Legacy of Dhakaan, Heirs of Ash, and Draconic Prophecies series, as well as the Sharn: City of Towers sourcebook). There is greater and closer interaction between races than exists in any other campaign setting, and there is no sign of any active racial prejudices or hatreds other than the Darguun/Valenar conflict (which is politically motivated rather than racially), but any actual integration is still predominantly superficial. For integration, you have to have cultural homogeneity that transcends racial boundaries and an erosion of racial cultural identity... and to relate back to the topic at hand, the fact that true-breeding half-elves have developed a term to describe their race and its unique cultural identity is an indication that actually, the reverse is happening...
the fact that being an elf is secondary to being a Brelander
And I would just like to point out that my argument is not based on some sort of personal preference or an unreasonable mapping of reality onto fiction, but is based completely on what I've read in the source material (specifically the Dreaming Dark, Dragon Below, Legacy of Dhakaan, Heirs of Ash, and Draconic Prophecies series, as well as the Sharn: City of Towers sourcebook). There is greater and closer interaction between races than exists in any other campaign setting, and there is no sign of any active racial prejudices or hatreds other than the Darguun/Valenar conflict (which is politically motivated rather than racially), but any actual integration is still predominantly superficial.
Your interpretation of those books is different from mine... Mind you, none of the novels I read actually goes all that deep into the cultures of the Five Kingdoms, so it is really hard to judge how integrated various races are. Most of the clear-cut examples are all about race and culture being along the same lines (goblins = Dhakaan, kaleshtar = Adar, elves = Valenar). I haven't read many novels based on the Last War where I presume the Five Kingdoms have a more central role. I don't see definitive "proof" for your or mine interpretation (although there are two elf clerics of the Silver Flame, where the only reason race is mentioned is because of age or because the Valenar elf uses it to insult the Silver Flame elf); otherwise there is nothing that sets them apart from other followers of the Silver Flame) ;) Not that such proof is all that important for your own campaigns ;)
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True, there isn't definitive proof of either supposition, which is where the real anthropology comes in: by applying those principles, we logically arrive at proof.
Fact: In any society that does not have total integration (and by total integration, I mean no linguistic differences or boundaries on who forms family groups), subcultures will arise as a matter of course. Those subcultures do not need to be racial - in fact, more often than not, they aren't (linguistics and economics are the most common cultural dividers). But, it is true that race enables other dividers more readily than any other factor, because usually they also have other factors in common, such as cultural heritage, religion, or language.
Fact: In the case of D&D, we have one of these as a given for us: language. If you are of the opinion that everybody who has 'Common' as a language speaks it fluently and has no need for any other language (I don't believe this, personally, but that's neither here nor there), that makes Elven, Dwarven, etc. redundant - and so the only reason that an elf or a dwarf knows their 'racial' language is because of cultural distinctions. Which provides us with a second given: cultural heritage. Add in the third given of vastly different lifespans, and the associated problems that will result when one spouse is guaranteed to age and die significantly before the other, and you have three extremely compelling reasons why family groups would predominantly form within racial parameters - which perpetuates the racial subculture.
Logically, therefore, the subcultures exist, and the races do not have total integration.
Basically, as long as you have elves 'born' speaking Common and Elven instead of just Common, and mainly marrying other elves, you don't have total integration, only partial integration - and their racial heritage is still important enough to them that it will never be totally eclipsed by their national heritage (even people of Indian descent who were born and raised in London and who think of themselves as Londoners still participate in aspects of their Indian culture, just as you still have a discrete Irish subculture in New York, Ethiopians with Christian, Muslim, and Jewish relatives, and native tribes in all western-colonized areas who are versed in both their 'native' culture and the Western one in which they grew up).
Yes, you can ignore all this if it suits your game, but doing so hurts the verisimilitude just a bit, and actually reduces the importance of your choice of race - if your nationality REALLY matters that more than your race, and the only reason you chose to be a Brelish elf instead of a Brelish half-elf or human is because elves make better archers, then you're kind of doing yourself a disservice when it comes to developing your character's identity. I prefer options like the elf rogue in the Draconic Prophecies series, who, while they have assimilated themselves into the monoculture, retain a connection to their racial subculture to the point that they can draw themselves back out of the monoculture and throw themselves wholeheartedly into their heritage.
And stop making me write essays! I'm starting grad school in three weeks, I'll have plenty of them to do then...
On the other hand, you have four nations that are culturally homogenous: Darguun, Thrane, Valenar, and Zilargo. Perhaps not coincidentally, these nations have an overwhelming proponderance of a single race.
Darguun isn't culturally homogenous. Setting aside tribal differences and groups like the Silent Folk, you've got three distinctly different cultures in Darguun. The Ghaal'dar control the largest amount of territory, but the Marguul bugbears dominate the south and the Heirs of Dhakaan are separate from both.
Valenar... it depends how you look at things. You have the culture of the Valaes Tairn. You have the Khunan humans, many of who still speak the Old Common tongue of Sarlona. You've got the Khoravar establishing villages like Moonshadow... pure Khoravar communities that have been built away from the Khunans and largely ignoring the elves. (And if you're saying "The what and the where?" these are discussed in the DDI Expeditionary Dispatches about Taer Valaestas.)
In reality, no culture is completely homogenous - there are differences from settlement to settlement, and even from neighborhood to neighborhood, homestead to homestead, and individual to individual.
Fact: In the case of D&D, we have one of these as a given for us: language. If you are of the opinion that everybody who has 'Common' as a language speaks it fluently and has no need for any other language (I don't believe this, personally, but that's neither here nor there), that makes Elven, Dwarven, etc. redundant - and so the only reason that an elf or a dwarf knows their 'racial' language is because of cultural distinctions.
Here I must disagree. Language is a mechanical aspect of D&D character creation, but I wouldn't define the world based on it. First we have the fact that NPCs and PCs don't have to follow the same rules - this is a pillar of the rules in 4E, but was something we said in Eberron even in 3E... meaning that while a *PC* elf is always going to speak both Elven and Common, there's no reason that you can't have a Brelish Elf who only speaks Common... or an Aereni or Valenar elf who DOESN'T speak Common. Personally, I think it adds considerably more flavor to the world if you play with this in more places. Have Mror Dwarves who only speak Dwarvish. Khunan humans in Valenar who only speak Old Common (Riedran). LOTS of Goblins who only speak Goblin. And so on. Common is the dominant language, but it is ultimately the language of humanity, evolved from the tongue brought over from Sarlona. Aereni who spend a lot of time in Khorvaire may learn it, but there's no reason for the Aereni sage who's never left his family estate to know how to speak to humans.
So, once you establish that there are people in the world that don't speak Common and people in the world that only speak Common, let's look back to PCs. Per 4E, virtually every race speaks multiple languages... including humans. As a human, you speak Common and one more. This plays to a few things. First, as a PC, you're a remarkable person. You're an adventurer and explorer. You've picked up a few things. Alternatively, well, look to page 132 of the ECS: Throughout the Five Nations, formal schooling is considered a right and a necessary part of every child's training. In my mind, this is the likely source of how common it is for people to speak multiple langauges. It's like US schools teaching French or German. These languages aren't commonly spoken IN the US. I learned French in High School, and even among my fellow students, we didn't chat in French (which is probably why my French now sucks). But when I was first created as a young adult character, I spoke English and French. It didn't reflect some sort of strong French culture in my hometown; it just meant that if I went to France, hey, I've got that covered. So IMO, you COULD say "the fact that Elf PCs all speak Elven implies that there is a strong Elven subculture in the Five Nations"... or you could say "the public education system offers the chance to learn Elven and Dwarven because there are nations where many people only speak this language, and that people of a race invariably choose to learn the language of their race because those nations are their ancestral homelands and appeal to them." Hey, if they'd taught Gaelic at my school, I would have definitely learned that because it's my heritage... but there's no big Celtic tradition in my family or hometown.
Admittedly, the fact that there's no choice about it at all hurts this premise, but as a DM if you said "I'm a Dwarf Warlock who was stolen by Eladrin as a child and raised in Thelanis, and I'd like to speak Common and Elvish instead of Dwarven" I'd let you do it.
The basic issue is if you hold to "PCs all speak Common, which means everyone in the world speaks Common" then it is a question as to why the other languages still thrive in Khorvaire. However, if you hold the idea that there are places and even nations where Common is NOT the dominant language, the idea that it's useful for people who travel a lot to learn additional langauges makes more sense.
Aside from that, I also like the idea of languages being integrated due to proximity or presence of a particular race. For example, Karrnath is right next to the Mror Holds. As a result, when I'm making Karrnathi human characters for one-shots, I tend to have them speak Dwarven, because it's leaked in... and that this actually flavors the culture of Karrnath itself to some degree. I can see a Karrnathi human who doesn't actually speak Dwarvish still knowing a dozen Dwarvish swear words, because they've just become part of the culture. Meanwhile, Breland is down by Zilargo and the gnomes have brought some of their language to Brelish culture. So rather than thinking of Common itself as a single monolithic language that is entirely the same wherever you are, I like the idea that a Karrn and an Aundairian who only speak Common will have a slightly ifferent vocabulary.
The main point, however, is that I don't use the rules for PCs as the final definition of the world. By the rules, EVERY HUMAN IS BILINGUAL. I'm fine with that being true for PCs and for educated citizens of the Five Nations, but I don't feel an obligation to make it true for every NPC... and I think the world is a more interesting place when you have monolingual communities, especially when their language ISN'T Common.
Admittedly, the fact that there's no choice about it at all hurts this premise, but as a DM if you said "I'm a Dwarf Warlock who was stolen by Eladrin as a child and raised in Thelanis, and I'd like to speak Common and Elvish instead of Dwarven" I'd let you do it.
and a whole bunch of other stuff I agree with entirely
Keith... please, please, please come to Edmonton sometime in the next two years (if you can't do it in that time, please, please, please come to Vancouver sometime after 2012).
Also, because they identify themselves as a single nation, in the sense of a 'people' - one 'dar,' with many facets - they are more properly termed a striatic civilization, in which each subculture contributes to the fabric of the whole (much the same way that one can speak of the Salish culture, when each tribe has its own traditions, stories, and language variations, or of Chinese culture when there are really several hundred cultures that bear only marginal similarities to each other).
It's an interesting question. When you look to the Marguul specifically, they acknowledge the power of the Ghaal'dar and Haruuc's sovereignity. However, within their own territory and tribes, only bugbears are considered equals, and both hobgoblins and goblins are kept as slaves. If you look to Breland, you don't have dwarves keeping elves as slaves. On the other hand, I can see the point that slavery is a cultural concept that is a part of Goblin culture - one common to both Ghaal'dar and Marguul - and that this is an aspect of that striatic civilization, even if they have different ideas as to who should be enslaved. They are nonetheless united by the common history of the old empire, the struggle with the Daelkyr, etc... whereas the dwarf and elf may hold to the cultural stories of THEIR ancestors, which have nothing in common. At the least, the Goblins are united by a langauge. So OK, I see where you're coming from.
Now the question to me is the degree to which the Brelish dwarves and elves hold to their old cultures, and the point to me is that it varies - there's no one rule. Thorn's mother was from Aerenal, and her family inherited some of that culture from her. There are Dwarvish families in Sharn that look back to their roots in the Mror Holds, and I could see some Brelish dwarves proud of their Droranath roots picking fights with Tharashk orcs. But I've always seen there as being dwarves, elves, halflings and more who do identify themselves as Brelish first and foremost. The stories these dwarves tell their children are about how their ancestors raised the towers of Sharn and how they fought for Galifar, Karrn, or Jarot, not of deeds in the forgotten Mror Holds. These are the sort of dwarves that might not actually speak Dwarvish; sure, they had family in the old country once, but they'd have to do a lot of research to figure out exactly when their ancestors came south, and who really cares?
As a side note, for people wondering "Where did the dwarves of Breland come from, anyway? Aren't the holds a ways away?" The earliest human settlement on what is now Sharn was founded by Malleon the Reaver, who originally made landfall on the modern Lhazaar Principalities, and who was a slaver by trade; I'd imagine he picked up dwarven slaves before moving south. Later generations came with later invaders. Galifar was well-known for the "Fight for me and be free" rule, and he began in Karrnath; I'd see many dwarves having joined his forces and settled where the march ended. That was a thousand years ago... so a fair bit of time to have a new begining. We've certainly shown that there are those who take pride in their roots - but we've also always said that there are those who put nation first.
Keith... please, please, please come to Edmonton sometime in the next two years (if you can't do it in that time, please, please, please come to Vancouver sometime after 2012).
I am planning to get my HDWT tour going again once I get caught up in all my work, and sometime I'll have to make a big cross-Canada trek... but hey, worst comes to the worst, now I live in Portland, Vancouver's not that far away. ;)