Is Spiked Chain Mastery the model for 4E Dragonmarks? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is Spiked Chain Mastery the model for 4E Dragonmarks?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ieattrollsforbreakfast
Feb 16, 2009 10:08:13 Does anyone else get the feeling that the Spiked Chain Mastery feats from the Playing Shadar-kai article are pretty much perfect for dragonmarks?

Pros:
-No extra powers, it's all power swap. This keeps the number of powers in line with regular characters, while giving dragonmarked characters neat tricks
-Scaling power levels. This means your least dragonmark power won't become useless as you level up.
-3 powers to swap out - Least, Lesser, Greater
-Uses little space. Four feats and 3*12 powers will take up only around 5 pages, which leaves lots of space for other aspects of the setting.
-Carries the multiclass tag. Stops your dragonmark from making your character too unfocussed, and makes dragonmarked bards a great choice. Note that a fully multiclassed and fully dragonmarked bard would need to spend 8 feats for it, though.

Cons:
-You'd need to be 4th level to manifest a dragonmark power. Not too huge an issue with me, since the initial multiclass feat could have a neat benefit.

I know that dragonmarks maybe being built using multiclassing isn't a new idea - speculation sparked with the Spellscar, but it's interesting to see this slightly different take on things.
#2
nthdegree256
Feb 16, 2009 14:17:33 This spiked chain mechanism has actually also been seen before - if you check the Gladiators article from a while back (just after D&DI went pay-only, I think), you'll find similar feat progressions for the whip, the net, and the bolas.

I'm just about convinced that this is exactly how the dragonmarks are going to be depicted. Regarding the "Con" in your list, I'd point out that some of the existing multiclass feats - Arcane Initiate, for example - give you a new power right off the bat, so there's precedent for getting a power early.

I think there's also been speculation on the dragonmarks granting free/expedited use of certain rituals, such as Make Whole for the Mark of Making or Remove Disease for the Mark of Healing, so the initial or subsequent feats might go that route. Maybe it'll be like that one Paragon Path in Manual of the Planes; I forget the name, but they can cast the Linked Portal ritual as a standard action for the cost of several healing surges.
#3
rauric
Feb 16, 2009 18:18:50 I have a feeling Dragonmarks will somehow incorporate Rituals. The Dragomark Houses are an economic power in the world. Why? Because of the powers they possess because of their Marks. If they were able to use the Rituals at no cost that would definitely make them all moneymakers.

Plus I saw mention of a Dragonmark house in a recent EB article and it seemed to me that is how they were heading. I think the article might have been about Graywall or Mordain.
#4
spectralphoenix
Feb 16, 2009 21:31:32
I have a feeling Dragonmarks will somehow incorporate Rituals. The Dragomark Houses are an economic power in the world. Why? Because of the powers they possess because of their Marks. If they were able to use the Rituals at no cost that would definitely make them all moneymakers.

Plus I saw mention of a Dragonmark house in a recent EB article and it seemed to me that is how they were heading. I think the article might have been about Graywall or Mordain.

I agree, the whole point is that it lets them use magic for mundane purposes, not using powers to blow stuff up. I'm guessing maybe a feat chain that reduces/eliminates certain ritual costs?
#5
Gilo
Feb 16, 2009 23:25:08
Plus I saw mention of a Dragonmark house in a recent EB article and it seemed to me that is how they were heading. I think the article might have been about Graywall or Mordain.

here is a reminder:

Just read a little about Graywall in the WOTC PDF and noticed it said this on a House Jorasco member with a dragonmark:
10. Hahlo’s House: Although small, this Jorasco
house of healing can handle most problems. Thanks
to his dragonmark, Hahlo d’Jorasco can perform
Cure Disease, Raise Dead, or Remove Affliction
rituals—although he adds a 20% “Droaam tax” to
his prices unless he likes the clients.

#6
greatfrito
Feb 17, 2009 3:39:05 Nice.

I agree that this format (a set list of multiclass feats) looks like it will work better for Dragonmarks than the Spellscarred model - if they go this route, I'll really be looking forward to it.

As the "weapon mastery" feat chains all start with what is essentially "Weapon Proficiency + A Bonus," I'd imagine we could see something very similar for Dragonmarks. Effectively give "Ritual Casting + A Bonus" to the character - though perhaps more limited than normal. Could allow the character to use rituals from a specific list, and learn them automatically (like the Wizard does, but with pre-set rituals as they advance).

Still, if the tree counts as a "multiclass" option, I would fully expect to see normal power-swap feats too. Though could be... more interesting, but less fitting for many marks.
#7
saragon42
Feb 17, 2009 14:03:23
I agree, the whole point is that it lets them use magic for mundane purposes, not using powers to blow stuff up. I'm guessing maybe a feat chain that reduces/eliminates certain ritual costs?

This is exactly how I've converted dragonmarks to 4E rules in the game I'm starting - once per day they get a free, no-casting-time use of a ritual (although any focus the ritual calls for must still be present.) In a few cases, I used utility powers, but even encounter powers are only available once per day from a dragonmark. This necessitated creating about a dozen rituals, but I found that that was really quite easy (a lot easier than my homebrew Heir of Siberys paragon path.) My players are aware that since this stuff hasn't been playtested, I reserve the right to tweak things as needed after discussing it with them - but for the most part things look like they'll work pretty well.

To differentiate aberrant dragonmarks, I simply said that an aberrant mark allows you a daily use of an attack power with an energy keyword (e.g. fire or psychic.) This limits aberrant abilities a bit, but makes the feat far simpler and helps explain why aberrant marks are so feared - they're inherently destructive.

Of course, most of this will change come summer, but it's good working material for now.
#8
PJammaGod
Feb 18, 2009 0:40:27 I dunno if I've posted this before, but if you want an idea of how Dragonmarked characters will use Rituals, look to the Manual of the Planes. Checkout how Eladrin can cast Fey Passage or Shadar-Kai Shadow Passage for free (as long as they've either mastered the ritual or have a scroll on hand). This will probably be the same thing for the Dragonmarked abilities. Hence why the Dragonmarked Houses have such a monopoly on commerce, they aren't spending money hand over fist for crafting (Cannith), Healing (Jorasco) Tracking (Tharashk) and so on and so on.
#9
saragon42
Feb 18, 2009 8:34:30 There's an extra benefit to making dragonmarks ritual effects as well: The skill checks involved in casting a ritual spell. A couple of points along those lines:
Adventurers, by necessity, have to have a fairly broad range of skills. Someone who has spent their entire life working in a house enclave, however, doesn't really need to learn anything but the skills they use in their job. For example, a marked member of House Jorasco will have a very high Heal check not only for the mundane uses of the Heal skill, but because their Heal skill determines the effectiveness of their Mark of Healing. This helps emphasize the fact that someone who's been adventuring most of their life is unlikely to take a leadership role in a dragonmarked house, and gives players a reason to use the services offered by the Twelve.
Likewise, it makes sense that a marked member of a dragonmarked house would be trained in their house's services, and not reliant solely on their dragonmark.
Much like the Ritual Caster feat itself, dragonmarks encourage players to build multi-faceted characters (something badly needed in Fourth Edition D&D, if you ask me.) The fighter who took the Mark of Healing as a backup? To be effective, he'll need to be trained in the Heal skill and seek out some ways to make his Heal skill more effective - never a bad thing.
It places an inherent, but scaling limit on just how powerful dragonmarks can be, loosely tying a dragonmark's effectiveness to the "plus half your level" mechanic built into 4E's math.
It makes converting the Dragonmark Focus item (and other similar ones) extremely easy - they simply add a scaling item bonus to skill checks made as part of activating your dragonmark.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ieattrollsforbreakfast Feb 16, 2009 10:08:13	Does anyone else get the feeling that the Spiked Chain Mastery feats from the Playing Shadar-kai article are pretty much perfect for dragonmarks? Pros: -No extra powers, it's all power swap. This keeps the number of powers in line with regular characters, while giving dragonmarked characters neat tricks -Scaling power levels. This means your least dragonmark power won't become useless as you level up. -3 powers to swap out - Least, Lesser, Greater -Uses little space. Four feats and 3*12 powers will take up only around 5 pages, which leaves lots of space for other aspects of the setting. -Carries the multiclass tag. Stops your dragonmark from making your character too unfocussed, and makes dragonmarked bards a great choice. Note that a fully multiclassed and fully dragonmarked bard would need to spend 8 feats for it, though. Cons: -You'd need to be 4th level to manifest a dragonmark power. Not too huge an issue with me, since the initial multiclass feat could have a neat benefit. I know that dragonmarks maybe being built using multiclassing isn't a new idea - speculation sparked with the Spellscar, but it's interesting to see this slightly different take on things.
#2 nthdegree256 Feb 16, 2009 14:17:33	This spiked chain mechanism has actually also been seen before - if you check the Gladiators article from a while back (just after D&DI went pay-only, I think), you'll find similar feat progressions for the whip, the net, and the bolas. I'm just about convinced that this is exactly how the dragonmarks are going to be depicted. Regarding the "Con" in your list, I'd point out that some of the existing multiclass feats - Arcane Initiate, for example - give you a new power right off the bat, so there's precedent for getting a power early. I think there's also been speculation on the dragonmarks granting free/expedited use of certain rituals, such as Make Whole for the Mark of Making or Remove Disease for the Mark of Healing, so the initial or subsequent feats might go that route. Maybe it'll be like that one Paragon Path in Manual of the Planes; I forget the name, but they can cast the Linked Portal ritual as a standard action for the cost of several healing surges.
#3 rauric Feb 16, 2009 18:18:50	I have a feeling Dragonmarks will somehow incorporate Rituals. The Dragomark Houses are an economic power in the world. Why? Because of the powers they possess because of their Marks. If they were able to use the Rituals at no cost that would definitely make them all moneymakers. Plus I saw mention of a Dragonmark house in a recent EB article and it seemed to me that is how they were heading. I think the article might have been about Graywall or Mordain.
#4 spectralphoenix Feb 16, 2009 21:31:32	I have a feeling Dragonmarks will somehow incorporate Rituals. The Dragomark Houses are an economic power in the world. Why? Because of the powers they possess because of their Marks. If they were able to use the Rituals at no cost that would definitely make them all moneymakers. Plus I saw mention of a Dragonmark house in a recent EB article and it seemed to me that is how they were heading. I think the article might have been about Graywall or Mordain. I agree, the whole point is that it lets them use magic for mundane purposes, not using powers to blow stuff up. I'm guessing maybe a feat chain that reduces/eliminates certain ritual costs?
#5 Gilo Feb 16, 2009 23:25:08	Plus I saw mention of a Dragonmark house in a recent EB article and it seemed to me that is how they were heading. I think the article might have been about Graywall or Mordain. here is a reminder: Just read a little about Graywall in the WOTC PDF and noticed it said this on a House Jorasco member with a dragonmark: 10. Hahlo’s House: Although small, this Jorasco house of healing can handle most problems. Thanks to his dragonmark, Hahlo d’Jorasco can perform Cure Disease, Raise Dead, or Remove Affliction rituals—although he adds a 20% “Droaam tax” to his prices unless he likes the clients.
#6 greatfrito Feb 17, 2009 3:39:05	Nice. I agree that this format (a set list of multiclass feats) looks like it will work better for Dragonmarks than the Spellscarred model - if they go this route, I'll really be looking forward to it. As the "weapon mastery" feat chains all start with what is essentially "Weapon Proficiency + A Bonus," I'd imagine we could see something very similar for Dragonmarks. Effectively give "Ritual Casting + A Bonus" to the character - though perhaps more limited than normal. Could allow the character to use rituals from a specific list, and learn them automatically (like the Wizard does, but with pre-set rituals as they advance). Still, if the tree counts as a "multiclass" option, I would fully expect to see normal power-swap feats too. Though could be... more interesting, but less fitting for many marks.
#7 saragon42 Feb 17, 2009 14:03:23	I agree, the whole point is that it lets them use magic for mundane purposes, not using powers to blow stuff up. I'm guessing maybe a feat chain that reduces/eliminates certain ritual costs? This is exactly how I've converted dragonmarks to 4E rules in the game I'm starting - once per day they get a free, no-casting-time use of a ritual (although any focus the ritual calls for must still be present.) In a few cases, I used utility powers, but even encounter powers are only available once per day from a dragonmark. This necessitated creating about a dozen rituals, but I found that that was really quite easy (a lot easier than my homebrew Heir of Siberys paragon path.) My players are aware that since this stuff hasn't been playtested, I reserve the right to tweak things as needed after discussing it with them - but for the most part things look like they'll work pretty well. To differentiate aberrant dragonmarks, I simply said that an aberrant mark allows you a daily use of an attack power with an energy keyword (e.g. fire or psychic.) This limits aberrant abilities a bit, but makes the feat far simpler and helps explain why aberrant marks are so feared - they're inherently destructive. Of course, most of this will change come summer, but it's good working material for now.
#8 PJammaGod Feb 18, 2009 0:40:27	I dunno if I've posted this before, but if you want an idea of how Dragonmarked characters will use Rituals, look to the Manual of the Planes. Checkout how Eladrin can cast Fey Passage or Shadar-Kai Shadow Passage for free (as long as they've either mastered the ritual or have a scroll on hand). This will probably be the same thing for the Dragonmarked abilities. Hence why the Dragonmarked Houses have such a monopoly on commerce, they aren't spending money hand over fist for crafting (Cannith), Healing (Jorasco) Tracking (Tharashk) and so on and so on.
#9 saragon42 Feb 18, 2009 8:34:30	There's an extra benefit to making dragonmarks ritual effects as well: The skill checks involved in casting a ritual spell. A couple of points along those lines: Adventurers, by necessity, have to have a fairly broad range of skills. Someone who has spent their entire life working in a house enclave, however, doesn't really need to learn anything but the skills they use in their job. For example, a marked member of House Jorasco will have a very high Heal check not only for the mundane uses of the Heal skill, but because their Heal skill determines the effectiveness of their Mark of Healing. This helps emphasize the fact that someone who's been adventuring most of their life is unlikely to take a leadership role in a dragonmarked house, and gives players a reason to use the services offered by the Twelve. Likewise, it makes sense that a marked member of a dragonmarked house would be trained in their house's services, and not reliant solely on their dragonmark. Much like the Ritual Caster feat itself, dragonmarks encourage players to build multi-faceted characters (something badly needed in Fourth Edition D&D, if you ask me.) The fighter who took the Mark of Healing as a backup? To be effective, he'll need to be trained in the Heal skill and seek out some ways to make his Heal skill more effective - never a bad thing. It places an inherent, but scaling limit on just how powerful dragonmarks can be, loosely tying a dragonmark's effectiveness to the "plus half your level" mechanic built into 4E's math. It makes converting the Dragonmark Focus item (and other similar ones) extremely easy - they simply add a scaling item bonus to skill checks made as part of activating your dragonmark.