Anyways, I'm pretty PO'd that the typo in warforged juggernaut paragon path's flavor text wasn't fixed. "Our of my way, flesh bags."? I can only assume that the warforged lost the ability to pronounce T's when becoming a juggernaut.
who can't say my name. Lyran, you can change the title of your thread when editing your post.
I'm also not terribly fond of the Changeling's racial picture. 80's Glam/Hair Rock is apparently alive and well in Sharn and Freeform.
I'd say that the most disappointing thing about the EPG is the lack of a channel divinity feat for the Blood of Vol. They've always been my favorite Religion and now that they're "Unaligned" I figured that we'd get a feat for them. Alas, tis not to be.
On the other hand, Artificers are much much better than they were in the playtest, Warforged can still get body plating, but now it's an item and not a feat, Dragonmarks are no longer racially restricted for PCs, the magical items are pretty cool, and I'm rather fond of the much prettier maps of the world.
I'm also not terribly fond of the Changeling's racial picture. 80's Glam/Hair Rock is apparently alive and well in Sharn and Freeform.
I've never been a fan of 3.5/4E depictions of changelings. They looked too much like their parent species, the dopplegangers. I prefer my changelings too look like Copycat or Mystique from Marvel.
_001.jpg/200px-Copycat_(AoA)_001.jpg)
I'd say that the most disappointing thing about the EPG is the lack of a channel divinity feat for the Blood of Vol. They've always been my favorite Religion and now that they're "Unaligned" I figured that we'd get a feat for them. Alas, tis not to be.
Wasn't the Blood of Vol a secret and reclusive religion that mostly stayed in the shadows of society? I don't remember reading anywhere that they were a public organization (except in Karnnath). To the rest of the world/nations and PCs from anywhere but Karrnath, the Blood of Vol is mysterious and sinister sounding.
and I'm rather fond of the much prettier maps of the world.
I can only hope that a fold-out poster map of Eberron will be included in the ECG, depicting the newfangled, shiny pretty cartographic art. But, I won;t hold my breath.
I looked at the map on page 9 and about threw a gasket. Its so wonderful, compared to that piece of dung the Realms got about 10 months ago.
Still I am excited about Eberron in 4e now. Now I need, no want the Eberron Campaign Guide.
If I might ask, what's the deal with eladrin being stranded on Eberron? How come they can't reach Thelanis?
Day of Mourning.
I bet the Day of Mourning causes cancer too...and is made of SARS and Swine Flu.
I bet the Day of Mourning causes cancer too...and is made of SARS and Swine Flu.
Does that mean the Day of Mourning is Eberron's version of the mobile phone?
Thanks Alex.
Does that mean the Day of Mourning is Eberron's version of the mobile phone?
Thanks Alex.
Mobile Mourning Conspiracy Theory #1 - Catherine Zeta Jones gave Cyre the T-mobile makeover.
Mobile Mourning Conspiracy Theory #2 - The mom from cingular finally snapped and blew up Cyre when she found out her kids threw away their leftover minutes.
Mobile Mourning Conspiracy Theory #3 - Silver Flame is run by verizon's Network. The Great Purge was a crusade led by the verizon guy. When shooting "We got were-G, here." they unintentionally made Cyre a dead zone.
Boost Mobile - "God, where you at?"
Sprint ... I got nothing. :P
I'd say that the most disappointing thing about the EPG is the lack of a channel divinity feat for the Blood of Vol.
How about a total of two racial feats for Changelings? Two. One Heroic and one Epic tier. How many do Warforged and Kalashtar get? Definitely more than two.
Now I have to pray for a Dragon article to supplement...
How can people complain about how changelings/doppelgangers look when they can look like darn near anything? "Man, I wish my shapechanger looked more like ... er ... wait ..."
Overall, well done, guys.
. Everything you'd know from the average Khorvarian's knowledge standpoint. (Maybe I missed it, though, but are the druidic sects discussed much at all?)
.
Not really, each of them is mentioned at one point or another and there is a totem for each sect, but that's it. We'll have to wait for the ECG.
And I definitely second your sentiments.
Not really, each of them is mentioned at one point or another and there is a totem for each sect, but that's it. We'll have to wait for the ECG.
And I definitely second your sentiments.
There's also a gatekeeper paragon path.
If I might ask, what's the deal with eladrin being stranded on Eberron? How come they can't reach Thelanis?
I wished they had explained this better. I think what they meant to imply is that the feyspires are stuck in Eberron not the Eladrin themselves. If they were stuck, there would need to be some note; and replacement ability, for Fey Step, since it wouldn't work anymore. And, there is nothing in the book that I have found so far that states that Thelanis (Feywild) is off limits. Of course if your whole city is somewhere else are you really going to leave everthing behind?
Another thing they need to explain is what are the feyspires. What I mean is are the feyspires Eladrin trade cities that connected to Eberron? Think trade cities that became such because of their connection to Eberron. Or, are they THE Eladrin cities; hence, when you go Thelanis there are no more Eladrin because their seven major cities went POOF? I am inclined to think it is the former. If not this has huge implications.
For example, is the Prince of Frost (or his Eberron equivilant) still in Thelanis or is he now stuck in Karranth (sp?)? I do not think they were trying to imply this, but I don't know I am just a player.
I do like the Vadalis PP, especially since it can be easily adapted for an Aundairian dragonhawk rider PP.
I wished they had explained this better. I think what they meant to imply is that the feyspires are stuck in Eberron not the Eladrin themselves. If they were stuck, there would need to be some note; and replacement ability, for Fey Step, since it wouldn't work anymore. And, there is nothing in the book that I have found so far that states that Thelanis (Feywild) is off limits. Of course if your whole city is somewhere else are you really going to leave everthing behind?
Another thing they need to explain is what are the feyspires. What I mean is are the feyspires Eladrin trade cities that connected to Eberron? Think trade cities that became such because of their connection to Eberron. Or, are they THE Eladrin cities; hence, when you go Thelanis there are no more Eladrin because their seven major cities went POOF? I am inclined to think it is the former. If not this has huge implications.
For example, is the Prince of Frost (or his Eberron equivilant) still in Thelanis or is he now stuck in Karranth (sp?)? I do not think they were trying to imply this, but I don't know I am just a player.
I don't think that the EPG is the right book for that sort of questions. The ECG would be far more approppriate.
How can people complain about how changelings/doppelgangers look when they can look like darn near anything? "Man, I wish my shapechanger looked more like ... er ... wait ..."
It's a little known fact, but *every* picture in the EPG is a picture of a changeling (a changeling with a very good agent).
Overall, Wow! It's pretty much the Eberron I remember, with a few rough edges neatly tucked in, and a few others tattered out.
I can honestly say that there was nothing about it that made me think "Oh, Great Sovereigns! They've gone and ruined Eberron!"
There were quite a few things—some details that are different from the previous edition of the setting—that made me smile. And one or two things that aren't different that also made me smile.
An example of the former is that there are now officially three floating towers at Arcanix, rather than five. An example of the latter is that Boldrei and Kol Korran still appear as bronze and brass dragons, respectively.
The only thing I found even vaguely annoying was—as discussed above—the feyspires explanation for the widespread presence of eladrin. Not because it's used to explain the presence of eladrin per se, but because it's the first time we've heard of the Mourning affecting anything outside of the political boundary of Cyre as it stood at that time.
The apparent changes to the cosmology, I can live with; indeed, with some aspects of the present cosmology, I'm actually quite delighted. [1]
The Talenta natives continue to have a rapport with dinosaurs, rather than behemoths.
The terms "elemental" and "elemental spirit" are bandied about with little explanation, with respect to binding.
I'm not sure that the word "daelkyr" appears anywhere in the book. The daelkyr themselves are barely referred to, and then only indirectly. The term "Xoriat" does appear, however.
Kalashtar come across as a bit more serious, and a bit less quirky than they seemed in the original Eberron Campaign Setting: they appear here very much the way they do toward the end of the previous edition, rather than near its beginning.
Oalian isn't described anywhere, but there's a druid implement named for it.
Most dragonshard items impart properties rather than powers, which will make them something of a boon to those who wield weapons as implements.
Quite aside from the notion of what's different about this vision of Eberron is the question "If I were approaching the setting for the first time, would this book get me interested in it?" The answer, as far as I can tell from asking around, is 'yes!'" which suggests that it's doing things right.
—Siran Dunmorgan
[1] The Prophecy officially applies to the entire cosmology now, and not just to Eberron. Yay! (This resolves a long-standing discussion between myself and Hellcow, regarding the universality of certain themes: Hellcow has long been of the opinion that the Prophecy applied specifically to Eberron, and not to the other planes: I have taken the position that the Prophecy should apply throughout the cosmology).
And I will just say this: I love Eberron so much. So, so, so, much.
After reading over the book more thoroughly I find myself becoming more and more relaxed. What where we worried about? Everything turning out great? Sure there are minor nitpicks, like that whole Eladrin commonly having the Mark of Shadow. But nothing a little DMing can't fix! Sure the Blood of Vol is now more common. But what is there to worry about? Everything is going to be just fine...
Wait! We have to wait for the ECG?! NOOOOOOOO!!!!! :P
Wall it is a new day and there is a whole host of new Eberron threads to reply to. I'm off.
However this time the cities got stuck in Eberron. Now yeah, the eladrin could all pack all their possessions, leave their homes and probably most of their material wealth, trek across the (for two years) still warring continent, or (for the last two years) highly paranoid on the verge of all out conflict continent to get to the Eldeen Reaches to pass into Thelanis as homeless refugees.
OR they could hunker down in their floating magical city states and hope that they can figure out a way to get the cities to shift back.
I think they took the latter route.
I can only hope that a fold-out poster map of Eberron will be included in the ECG, depicting the newfangled, shiny pretty cartographic art. But, I won;t hold my breath.
Actually, the last podcast confirmed that the ECG will contain exactly that. The other side will have a battle map depicting a typical street in Sharn.
Of course, the ECG is still a month away, so I still don't recommend holding your breath. You'd suffocate.
I don't think that the EPG is the right book for that sort of questions. The ECG would be far more approppriate.
I disagree. My eladrin character should know if he's on Eberron from choice or because he's stranded.
OR they could hunker down in their floating magical city states and hope that they can figure out a way to get the cities to shift back.
I think they took the latter route.
Thanks, that makes more sense. Although you really do have to wonder, what about the Mourning could possibly cause this?
I took it as the magic of the feyspires are somehow connected, which is why the one that stands abandoned that manifests in Xen'drik still shifts even though no one lives there anymore.
One of them had the misfortune of being there for the mourning, this shattered the whateer magical network connected them stranding them all.
I took it as the magic of the feyspires are somehow connected, which is why the one that stands abandoned that manifests in Xen'drik still shifts even though no one lives there anymore.
This is the only logical explanantion which I could conjure, as well.
As to how I feel about the EPG: Frankly, I'm pretty disappointed. I think it fails on many fronts to properly equip a player for an Eberron campaign. If one puts aside previous knowledge of the setting, I think they'll see the problem.
Useful information is, at times, scattered and extremely sparse. The layout is atrocious. I'd have much preferred something similar to the FRPG, with each nation/region getting it's own informative, clean layout. (Yep, FRPG, accused of being too sparse, gives much more info than the EPG). Instead, Aundair runs into Breland runs into Sharn runs into Karrnath runs into... you see how annoying run-ons are?!
The artwork, as we've discussed in a seperate thread, is often bewildering and incongruous for those of us who have a little knowledge of the setting. Khoravar scions of Medani who pretend to be Tairnadal?
Yes, you could come up with a good backstory, but this is hardly an iconic scion of Medani. Unfortunately, much of the artwork was this... strange.I could go on and on, but I feel this turning into a rant. I'll just sum things up by saying this: If I weren't already a huge Eberron fan, this EPG would have convinced me that Eberron had nothing to offer my game. I'm extremely dissatisfied with this book. It's sad.
I have confidence, though, that the right people are working on the ECG (we all know who they are, so I don't have to drop names.;) ) I'm sure it will turn out great. Maybe, with time, my disgust with the EPG will diminish. I'm glad others are enjoying it, at least.
To close on the positive side: The Artificer is freaking awesome! I didn't pay the Playtest much mind, so it was pretty much my first time seeing it. The other new mechanics (feats and the like) also seem solid. Also good news is that the fluff we all love remains largely intact.
If anyone made it this far into this post, I'm impressed. Thanks for letting me vent, so to speak.
I still do not think I have fully read the 3.5 Campaign book from cover to cover yet. Don't tell my players
.This book was better organized and similar to other 4E layouts so I was familiar with where everything would be.
I feel the exact opposite. "Different strokes", right. ;)
I have many little quibbles with this book (and a few major ones), but I guess the biggest problem was that I had expected something similar in structure to the FRPG. I thought we'd get a nice section for each region/nation, a section for playing characters from beyond Khorvaire (such as Aereni elves or drow of Xen'drik), and the like. We sort of got these things, but they were not laid out anything like the FRPG. I love Eberron, but I find the FRPG infinitely more appealing.
Oh, well. I'll make do, right? I'm sure the ECG will be more to my liking. Plus, a few more weeks with the EPG may soften my feelings toward it, as well.
I am excited that Eberron's back! It never went anywhere, of course, but things should pick up around here quite a bit now that Eberron has been reborn into 4E. Our own Eberron campaign is just over a month away, now. Hopefully, Divine Power comes through with the goods I need to play my Avenger of the Silver Flame.
Although you really do have to wonder, what about the Mourning could possibly cause this?
That's the thing. It can be ANYTHING! No one knows what caused the Mourning so we can't know what effect it had at a planar scale besides making Cyre a wasteland with some kind of connection to Dollurh. (and apparently strand eladrin cities in Eberron)
My skycaptain of Lyrandar (half-elf valbard) got caught in the blast wave on the Day of Mourning. She and her ship/crew were swallowed by the mists/cloud, never to be seen again in Eberron. In reality, they were shunted off-plane into Ravenloft [Shadowfell]. The Mournland is so kool in that it offers so many option for background stories and a way to get off plane without a headache.
Now, where on her body should I have the dragonmark manifest? ;)
I have many little quibbles with this book (and a few major ones), but I guess the biggest problem was that I had expected something similar in structure to the FRPG. I thought we'd get a nice section for each region/nation, a section for playing characters from beyond Khorvaire (such as Aereni elves or drow of Xen'drik), and the like. We sort of got these things, but they were not laid out anything like the FRPG. I love Eberron, but I find the FRPG infinitely more appealing.
I'm GLAD they didn't copy the layout for the FRPG. I do not need MY fave setting play second to FRPG in every way possible. FR had 20 yrs of history and fanbase, so it's hard not to find someone who doesn't know something about FR. That's why FRPG jumped right into races and classes and other stuff. Not so with Eberron. Being only 5 years old, the designers were smart to put Life in Eberron as the first chapter, and everything else that followed, so that new players and old (esp the 2e who skipped 3e) can read about this brave new world without waiting until the end of the book. I feel that the EPG is more organic in its design; less cold and impersonal than the FRPG.
Probably covered in the ECS buuuuuuuuut...
I took it as the magic of the feyspires are somehow connected, which is why the one that stands abandoned that manifests in Xen'drik still shifts even though no one lives there anymore.
Aaah, that works.
This is the only logical explanantion which I could conjure, as well.
An explanation someone else proposed
Show
involved experiments involving manifest zones and removing them and the like. That would have also explained it which is what I was hinting at ;)
I suspect that this may have been a responce to the criticsm on redundant regional information from the FRPG and FRCS, however the EPG violates one of the cardinal rules of 4e. Shouldn't have to flip pages for the info you need. Generally one would expect a nation's description to cover a two page spread starting at the upper left of the left page. Everything they need to know right there, no flipping.
The EPG goes against this, I suspect for the same reason that there is little to no artwork in the nations section. Page space. Say what you will about the EPG but it is a dense book. Page space is at a premium, there are wide stretches of the EPG with no art, and I think they may have tossed art to keep wordcount.
If that's the case than I think they made the right choice, but again this is just speculation.
Say what you will about the EPG but it is a dense book. Page space is at a premium, there are wide stretches of the EPG with no art, and I think they may have tossed art to keep wordcount.
If that's the case than I think they made the right choice, but again this is just speculation.
Agreed, 112%.
It was 113%...but somehow, that one percent got lost.
Page space is at a premium, there are wide stretches of the EPG with no art, and I think they may have tossed art to keep wordcount.
If that's the case than I think they made the right choice, but again this is just speculation.
I'm inclined to agree. I wouldn't be surprised if their first drafts of the book used the FRPG layout, but the amount of info they wanted to keep in the book was vying with the "space-wasting" full page spreads and regional maps, and they decided to start reorganizing to fit their pagecount goal.
The Artificer looks great and actually makes me a little sad, that I'm DMing and can't play one myself.
I was a bit skeptical of the Eladrin explanation, but once I read the whole thing it sort of fell into place. Nived's post above also helped a lot.
The Maps! Oh God, the maps. I can't wait for the big map from ECS.
As others I did miss minor things, like the Blood of Vol channel divinity feat. I would also have like to see Goblinoids as player races, but that ship sailed a long time ago. Here's hoping we'll get it in Dragon soon. More Dragonshard focus items would also be very welcome.
Has anyone but me noticed that Changelings are now specifically mentioned as second-class citizens along with other non-human races in Riedra (EPG pg. 152)?
This is actually a direct contradiction of Secrets of Sarlona which stated, that they were placed just below the Inspired (or Chosen) and above the humans (SoS pg. 52). I always liked the idea that here was one nation that actually embraced the changelings and that the changelings as a result were fiercely loyal and willing to do questionable things.
Has anyone but me noticed that Changelings are now specifically mentioned as second-class citizens along with other non-human races in Riedra (EPG pg. 152)?
This is actually a direct contradiction of Secrets of Sarlona which stated, that they were placed just below the Inspired (or Chosen) and above the humans (SoS pg. 52). I always liked the idea that here was one nation that actually embraced the changelings and that the changelings as a result were fiercely loyal and willing to do questionable things.
I took second-class to mean, literally, the second class below the Inspired, leaving humans at third class.
Now, where on her body should I have the dragonmark manifest? ;)
On the small of her back!
Being only 5 years old, the designers were smart to put Life in Eberron as the first chapter, and everything else that followed, so that new players and old (esp the 2e who skipped 3e) can read about this brave new world without waiting until the end of the book.
I have no problem with the actual sequence of the content. I find the presentation to be lacking, though.
I feel that the EPG is more organic in its design; less cold and impersonal than the FRPG.
I feel the FRPG is a cleaner, more user-friendly book. Nived sums things up pretty well in his post. He made many good points to which I'd like to add, so I'll address that seperately.
My main criticsm would be that, by page count and space allotment alone people may get the feeling that if they don't have a Dragonmark they don't matter. Even though its explicitly states that people care less about what you are rather than where you are from it seems like regions of origins just didn't get the highlight.
I could see a new player thinking this. Honestly, though, it was probably a good idea to flood us with Dragonmarked content. This was their one shot to get it into our hands. Dragon, while nice, has yet to provide much setting-specific content of this nature. If they didn't get this stuff into our hands now, we may have never seen it; or, we may have had to wait well over a year.
Unmarked PCs will select their feats/paths/whatnot from the entire array of 4E supplements. Dragonmarked PCs will rely heavily on the EPG.
I suspect that this may have been a responce to the criticsm on redundant regional information from the FRPG and FRCS, however the EPG violates one of the cardinal rules of 4e: Shouldn't have to flip pages for the info you need. Generally one would expect a nation's description to cover a two page spread starting at the upper left of the left page. Everything they need to know right there, no flipping.
Exactly.
This is one of my biggest complaints. I already know the setting backward and forward, so I'm not completely out of luck, so to speak. But, were I a new player, I would be turned off to the setting by this cumbersome, unattractive setup. This annoys me, because I want Eberron to continue drawing in new players.
The EPG goes against this, I suspect for the same reason that there is little to no artwork in the nations section. Page space. Say what you will about the EPG but it is a dense book. Page space is at a premium, there are wide stretches of the EPG with no art, and I think they may have tossed art to keep wordcount.
This seems likely. It is packed with info. Unfortunately, I'd bet it's a pain in the ass for a new player to find the info they seek.
Presentation vs. Content is a tough call to make. I'm not sure which way I'd have gone. Maybe, down the road, I'll be pleased that they chose substance over style in such a way. I'm enjoying the book so far, I just think it's clunky and ugly as hell.
How about a total of two racial feats for Changelings? Two. One Heroic and one Epic tier. How many do Warforged and Kalashtar get? Definitely more than two.
Now I have to pray for a Dragon article to supplement...
To be fair, Warforged are the Dragonborn of Eberron. Everyone and their donkey loves being a Warforged.
And well...I find kalashtar to be...Boring. The concept is neat, but I can't actually bring myself to seriously play one. In my mind, they're an odd mix of religious, serious and Emo that I just can't take seriously. Giving Kalashtar more stuff to make them attractive seems like a good idea to me.
Besides, only having 2 feats, 1 PP, and losing out on Recaster and several other Changeling specific feats and abilities has not stopped me from wanting to play my favorite Race of all time!
Changelings don't need feats to be more Awesome than Warforged and Dragonborn. The feats are just icing on the cake.:D
On the small of her back!
Well, I was thinking along the lines between her chest ;) ;) but that works too. lol
However, I think I might put it between her shoulder blades, so that it may grow in size and power to resemble wings. :angelhide
Out of curiosity, how is the print size? a respectable gamer print, or giant-learning-to-read size?
I don't think it's any different than the other D&D books, at least the ones for players (PHBs, FRPG, etc.), so whatever you think about those books probably applies here.
And well...I find kalashtar to be...Boring. The concept is neat, but I can't actually bring myself to seriously play one. In my mind, they're an odd mix of religious, serious and Emo that I just can't take seriously. Giving Kalashtar more stuff to make them attractive seems like a good idea to me.
Don't blame you. Thay are just so, so, wierd?
Changelings don't need feats to be more Awesome than Warforged and Dragonborn. The feats are just icing on the cake.:D
Defenitly!
Don't blame you. Thay are just so, so, wierd?
Are they wierd or is it simply that you don't understand them? they seem quite simple to me. They are the Tok-Ra of Eberron fighting off the System Lords (Inspired) in what they hope to believe a private war because they are just too proud to admit that it affects anything else. It is this pride and conceit that gives them an air of arroagance that puts them off with others and yet they have the power to back it up because of who and what they have been fighting for so long. To me, it can make an interesting character.
Out of curiosity, how is the print size? a respectable gamer print, or giant-learning-to-read size?
It's the same as the rest of the 4e books. On my copy, though, one of the printing plates got misaligned and so on about half a dozen pages, the layers of the at-will and encounter header bars got printed about a millimeter off of each other, and they end up looking out of focus. The main text is still perfectly fine, and like I said it's only about half a dozen pages total. But I shouldn't complain too much because I think I might have snagged the last copy in the city.
Are they wierd or is it simply that you don't understand them? they seem quite simple to me. They are the Tok-Ra of Eberron fighting off the System Lords (Inspired) in what they hope to believe a private war because they are just too proud to admit that it affects anything else.
I was always not very interested in the Kalashtar, but this actually makes me want to take a second look.
I was always not very interested in the Kalashtar, but this actually makes me want to take a second look.
Think of it this way ... they both share the same background but one rules and the other fights against them because of diagreements ... isn't that the System Lord/Tok-Ra fight right there? Well ... it works for the Kalashtar/DreamingDark/Inspired.
I like the idea of the Kalashtar, it's just they're not something I like. I probably will never end up playing them because they're just not for me. I like Kalashtaar characters in the books and the history and all that. I just don't like them in practice.
Now Changelings on the other hand, I love. Well, that is I love them now. With the release of the EPG I find myself really, really wanting to play one.
It's just maybe that I don't really see much prospect in them. It seems to me that they are fighting like crazed zealots for a lost cause and that reminds me to much of the Church of the Silver Flame.
You do realize that most of the CotSF is not as you describe them ... right? It is a normal religion dedicated to protection from evil. The corruption and zealotry that exists is no more rampant than any other religion in Eberron let alone any religion on our own world. From its structure, it has more to compare with the Jedi than crazed zealots for a lost cause.
The Kalashtar are the same thing.
It amazes me how people don't really read what the stuff is all about and jump to conclusions because only certain areas were discussed. Quick decisions can destroy any ideal.
Again ... just my take.
I want to give the Avenger class a try when our Eberron game kicks off next month, and I'm torn between a few concepts. A Kalashtar Avenger following the Path of Light is one of the ideas.
I have to admit, I do think this idea is slightly less versatile than my others (listed below) for this reason: If I were Kalashtar, I'd oppose the Dreaming Dark at every turn. I wouldn't be likely to join a disparate group of adventurers with who knows what type of goals. My focus would be 100% on opposing my people's greatest enemies. I felt like the EPG tried to make the Kalashtar seem a little more flexible than the ECS did, in this regard.
My other ideas are a Shifter Avenger of the Silver Flame (with obvious roleplaying potential built-in); a Deva Avenger (likewise of the Flame, though not affiliated with the modern-day church); or a Tairnadal/Valaes Tairn Avenger following a spirit of the past. I think any of the above would be a fun character to play. Each already has a backstory in my mind, so it's going to be a tough call.
You do realize that most of the CotSF is not as you describe them ... right? It is a normal religion dedicated to protection from evil. The corruption and zealotry that exists is no more rampant than any other religion in Eberron let alone any religion on our own world. From its structure, it has more to compare with the Jedi than crazed zealots for a lost cause.
Yes I know that. The problem is that they're wrongful actions out way some of their proper actions. I don't dislike the CotSF, I just don't like their judgment. Look at 4e Couatls. They oppose evil and chaos and yet they'll go to measures that can be considered evil just to stop the forces of that evil.
The majority are great people. Your kind neighbor.
But the CotSF can go to such lengths to exterminate anything that has the possibility to be considered "evil" that they don't realize what they did before it's too late. They still do a lot of good in the world, but they can be nasty some times.
I (as I said above) don't dislike the Silver Flame. For some odd reason, though, I enjoy the older cultures that worship the Flame, rather than the Church.
And another thing, in my opinion, the Jedi always were fighting for a lost cause
The Kalashtar are the same thing.
I disagree. The Kalashter are quite different in my opinion.
It amazes me how people don't really read what the stuff is all about and jump to conclusions because only certain areas were discussed.
Now you’re accusing me of things I haven't done. The CotSF is a great place. But as I said above...
Again ... just my take.
Same hear.
Look at 4e Couatls. They oppose evil and chaos and yet they'll go to measures that can be considered evil just to stop the forces of that evil.
What's the source for this statement? Have we received some sort of fluff of which I'm not aware? MM2, perhaps?
I've always viewed the couatls themselves as benevolent and wise, and believed that their quasi-followers/spiritual descendants within the CotSF are flawed mortal reflections of their goodness. The typical Purified will simply never achieve the purity and wisdom of a couatl.
Barring major changings to 4E couatls, I'll likely retain this mindset. I'd love to know from where this new info comes, though.
Yes I know that. The problem is that they're wrongful actions out way some of their proper actions. I don't dislike the CotSF, I just don't like their judgment. Look at 4e Couatls. They oppose evil and chaos and yet they'll go to measures that can be considered evil just to stop the forces of that evil.
The majority are great people. Your kind neighbor.
But the CotSF can go to such lengths to exterminate anything that has the possibility to be considered "evil" that they don't realize what they did before it's too late. They still do a lot of good in the world, but they can be nasty some times.
According to the fluff found within The Forge of War supplement, most of the church's darkest deeds occured under the leadership of Keeper Serrain and his extremist allies. He seemed to have used the war as an excuse to abuse power and/or cut corners in morality. Both before and after his time, the Church comported itself in a much more benevolent capacity.
The Lycanthropic Purge is the one example of a pre-war "atrocity", and even that can be viewed in a much different light, when all things are considered.
MM2, perhaps?
Yes. The MM2.
I've always viewed the couatls themselves as benevolent and wise, and believed that their quasi-followers/spiritual descendants within the CotSF are flawed mortal reflections of their goodness. The typical Purified will simply never achieve the purity and wisdom of a couatl.
Same hear. Everything you just said I agree with. And that is why I will probably go with this:
Barring major changings to 4E couatls, I'll likely retain this mindset
Thank you for that liitle peice of info in the reply above this one. :D
Thank you for that liitle peice of info in the reply above this one. :D
And thank you, good sir.
(I'm actually away from my books, so I hope I named the Keeper correctly. I'm pretty sure that's the guy, but it could have been his predecessor or successor.)I haven't yet seen the need to buy MM2, since I don't intend to DM in the immediate future. Inevitably, I'll do so, but not yet.
Based upon Keith Baker's comments in recent months, I expect a more clear presentation of the CotSF (and a great many other things) in the upcoming ECG than the one given/perceived in the original ECS. Later supplements and articles helped give a more rounded view of the faith, but those naturally didn't reach as wide an audience.
According to the fluff found within The Forge of War supplement, most of the church's darkest deeds occured under the leadership of Keeper Serrain and his extremist allies.
I think Keeper Serrain was either a worshipper of the Dark Flame, or worshipped the Dark Six (the Mockery most likely). If he was a Dark Flamist or Dark Six worshipper, then he knowingly commited those atrocities. If he was just a zealot, then he was easily manipulated by outside forces, and was influenced by the Dark Side of the Silver Flame.
He created the Crusades for a reason; not to increase the power of the church, but to protect the Faith. He probably feared that the faith would die from without, and was manipulated through that fear.
I think Keeper Serrain was either a worshipper of the Dark Flame, or worshipped the Dark Six (the Mockery most likely). If he was a Dark Flamist or Dark Six worshipper, then he knowingly commited those atrocities. If he was just a zealot, then he was easily manipulated by outside forces, and was influenced by the Dark Side of the Silver Flame.
He created the Crusades for a reason; not to increase the power of the church, but to protect the Faith. He probably feared that the faith would die from without, and was manipulated through that fear.
All are feasible possibilities. I can't remember if any ideas were proffered in Forge of War, but these would've all been worthy of a sidebar.
I think the last paragraph is most to my liking. I think he was a flawed man who failed to live up to the lofty ideals of his faith during a trying time. Whatever the cause, he made many questionable decisions. Yet, does Thrane survive without him? Who knows...
But, were I a new player, I would be turned off to the setting by this cumbersome, unattractive setup. This annoys me, because I Eberron to continue drawing in new players.
I can't see how you are getting this. I'm starting up 3 Eberron campaigns soon (ending two of my FR games to do so) and I see so much excitement about Eberron from people who know almost nothing about it. I've told my players only some things about Eberron and they seem to love the concept. I haven't found anyone turned off to the game because Drow aren't described in the EPG or whatever. Given that I have six people in my IRL group who have never played Eberron before and will be starting a game in Eberron; all of whom bar one are pretty excited I just can't understand this for the life of me.
Has anyone but me noticed that Changelings are now specifically mentioned as second-class citizens along with other non-human races in Riedra (EPG pg. 152)?
I think this is an unfortunate side effect of limited space and possibly the writer missing the changeling detail in SoS as opposed to an intentional contradiction and change to the SoS material. Especially given that this is a PC-focused book, and it's hardly surprising that PCs won't know much about nonhuman status in Riedra. Among other things, if one talked about changeling's status you'd need to explain the reasoning behind it, which means explaining the idea of the Path of Inspiration, and it snowballs from there.
Certainly I was never privy to any sort of discussion in which anyone said "We don't like the role of changelings in Riedra - let's change that." I'd certainly check, but if I was proposing a Riedra or changeling article to Dragon or setting a novel in Riedra, I'd hold to the flavor of SoS.
Based upon Keith Baker's comments in recent months, I expect a more clear presentation of the CotSF (and a great many other things) in the upcoming ECG than the one given/perceived in the original ECS.
That would be nice. It would really help clear misconceptions of the Flame. I myself admit to misconceptions in the distant past.
I think he was a flawed man who failed to live up to the lofty ideals of his faith during a trying time. Whatever the cause, he made many questionable decisions. Yet, does Thrane survive without him? Who knows...
I agree. Or maybe he was listening to the demon in the Flame. Like you said, who knows?
I can't see how you are getting this. I'm starting up 3 Eberron campaigns soon (ending two of my FR games to do so) and I see so much excitement about Eberron from people who know almost nothing about it. I've told my players only some things about Eberron and they seem to love the concept. I haven't found anyone turned off to the game because Drow aren't described in the EPG or whatever. Given that I have six people in my IRL group who have never played Eberron before and will be starting a game in Eberron; all of whom bar one are pretty excited I just can't understand this for the life of me.
I pretty sure those were my words, but the quote is difficult to understand because of my omission of a word. The last sentence should read that "I want Eberron to continue drawing in new players."
It sounds like those players are excited because you've done a great job of building excitement for the setting. Based upon your words above, the EPG had very little to do with it.
I think the book is excellent, overall, the more time I spend with it. I still feel, though, that the presentation --the layout, the artwork, you name it-- is drab and unappealing. If I were new to the setting, and didn't already have a passion for reading, I doubt this publication would move me to further explore the setting.
I tend to agree with a thought posted earlier. I believe Nived was the source. The idea that authors were forced by page-count to choose between layout and content seems plausible. In the end, I'm glad they went with content/substance. It just means that the ECG is all the more essential. Fortunately, that couldn't be in better hands.
My complaints about individual inclusions or exclusions, such as the Drow, aren't really relevant to my overall disappointment. Those are small potatoes, so to speak.
If I were Kalashtar, I'd oppose the Dreaming Dark at every turn. I wouldn't be likely to join a disparate group of adventurers with who knows what type of goals. My focus would be 100% on opposing my people's greatest enemies.
Well, there's lots of ways you can look at this. First you have the fact that on Khorvaire, the Dreaming Dark typically operates at a distance through catspaws. The Sundering was the result of clever manipulations within many different nations. As such, if *I* was playing that kalashtar avenger, I'd play it that I'm following dream manipulation... that if we're fighting the Emerald Claw or a group of bandits or whatever, *I* believe that they are being manipulated by the Dreaming Dark as part of a long term scheme... and if the DM's willing to play along, they might be. So the other PCs might actually think I was nuts to be claiming that there's a link between our disparate foes... until the hashalaq quori Inspired finally reveals herself.
But beyond that, other Kalashtar would argue that their greatest enemy isn't the Dreaming Dark, but rather mortal evil. That Dal Quor is a nightmare because it reflects the darkness in the world... and that every action that makes the world a brighter place moves one step closer to the turn of the age and the rise of il-Yannah. So you don't necessarily have to fight the Dreaming Dark to fight the Dreaming Dark.
I think the book is excellent, overall, the more time I spend with it. I still feel, though, that the presentation --the layout, the artwork, you name it-- is drab and unappealing. If I were new to the setting, and didn't already have a passion for reading, I doubt this publication would move me to further explore the setting.
Maybe. It depends dosen't it? I suppose the same is true for somebody who is new to D&D and picks up the PHB and is turned off by it.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Hellcow again!
Well, there's lots of ways you can look at this. First you have the fact that on Khorvaire, the Dreaming Dark typically operates at a distance through catspaws. The Sundering was the result of clever manipulations within many different nations. As such, if *I* was playing that kalashtar avenger, I'd play it that I'm following dream manipulation... that if we're fighting the Emerald Claw or a group of bandits or whatever, *I* believe that they are being manipulated by the Dreaming Dark as part of a long term scheme... and if the DM's willing to play along, they might be. So the other PCs might actually think I was nuts to be claiming that there's a link between our disparate foes... until the hashalaq quori Inspired finally reveals herself.
But beyond that, other Kalashtar would argue that their greatest enemy isn't the Dreaming Dark, but rather mortal evil. That Dal Quor is a nightmare because it reflects the darkness in the world... and that every action that makes the world a brighter place moves one step closer to the turn of the age and the rise of il-Yannah. So you don't necessarily have to fight the Dreaming Dark to fight the Dreaming Dark.
All very true. I just have a slightly harder time with it, is all.
The point I've tried to focus upon is the second you named-- that the ultimate goal is the advent of il-Yannah. Ultimately, the war against the Quori is one of survival. The Kalashtar can never win the war until il-Yannah is born. In that sense, any goodly Kalashtar is fighting the correct battle, which brings us back to the whole point of your post.
I believe typing the above response has actually helped me turn a mental corner, so to speak. Thanks for being the enabler, in that regard.
Maybe. It depends dosen't it? I suppose the same is true for somebody who is new to D&D and picks up the PHB and is turned off by it.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Hellcow again!
Nah, Hellcow's post concerns another point entirely. You have not been ninja'd, sir.
I hope I'm completely alone in my assessment of the EPG's layout. The fewer who agree with me, the better.
The point I've tried to focus upon is the second you named-- that the ultimate goal is the advent of il-Yannah. Ultimately, the war against the Quori is one of survival. The Kalashtar can never win the war until il-Yannah is born. In that sense, any goodly Kalashtar is fighting the correct battle, which brings us back to the whole point of your post.
Well said. If a Kalashtar goes around doing good in any way, he is furthering the gaol of il-Yannah. So if one does good, your are fighting the Dreaming Dark. Not directl of course, but your still fighting the Dark.
Nah, Hellcow's post concerns another point entirely. You have not been ninja'd, sir.
Ninja'd by you! :P Yeah I now that I wasn't ninja'd, it's just fun to say that you were. :D
I hope I'm completely alone in my assessment of the EPG's layout. The fewer who agree with me, the better.
Well if it reasures you: I have no idea what you talking about.
Well if it reasures you: I have no idea what you talking about.
This will probably be the only time I consider that a positive thing.
Nah, Hellcow's post concerns another point entirely. You have not been ninja'd, sir.
I hope I'm completely alone in my assessment of the EPG's layout. The fewer who agree with me, the better.
From what I understand it seems perfect from what I've heard.
If you want bad try the FRPG. Not only does it repeat piles of crap from the FRCG it's not even that good for the stuff that is mechanical crunch relating to the realms.
If you want bad try the FRPG. Not only does it repeat piles of crap from the FRCG it's not even that good for the stuff that is mechanical crunch relating to the realms.
I think that's key here, because the Swordmage, which can be used anywhere, is freakin' great, and the Genasi and Drow writeups are also really great and non-setting specific.
From what I understand it seems perfect from what I've heard.
Yeah, those who are pleased seem to drastically outnumber those who aren't, which is good.
If you want bad try the FRPG. Not only does it repeat piles of crap from the FRCG it's not even that good for the stuff that is mechanical crunch relating to the realms.
I found the repetition annoying, but the layout was excellent, in my opinion. Self-contained sections for each nation/region, for instance, would've been great for the EPG. It also would've been right in line with WotC's recent aims to provide clearly defined, self-contained bundles of information within their supplements (ie-the rule of beginning a section, write-up or whatnot at the top left of a page and not in the middle of a page). It also would've eaten up some page-count, so it was an acceptable trade.
I do agree the EPG's crunch is top-notch. Overall, it's a great book. I don't want to give the impression that I don't like it by continuing to harp on what I perceive as it's deficiencies. I'm happy with it, and I'm happy that it seems to be well received by the gaming community as a whole.
I'm hopeful that many more gamers will join us in Eberron. I hope WotC's new "two books per setting" approach makes it much easier for them to do so.
I'm happy with it, and I'm happy that it seems to be well received by the gaming community as a whole.
And that's what matters, isn't it? The book is mostly good in all areas and I hope that we'll be seeing some new Eberron fans.
I'm going to be starting my own Eberron campaign sometime in late July/early August and I'll probably be playing with people who have never played Eberron before. The real test will be whether or not they like it (based on there reaction to the EPG).
I'm hopeful that many more gamers will join us in Eberron. I hope WotC's new "two books per setting" approach makes it much easier for them to do so.
I think that we may be in luck. I've got a feeling deep down... that it could go either way. :P
If this keeps up, by the time the ECG comes out, I'm going to be some weird Eberron Cult leader.
I think that's key here, because the Swordmage, which can be used anywhere, is freakin' great, and the Genasi and Drow writeups are also really great and non-setting specific.
I am meaning the Forgotten Realms backgrounds (which are terrible) and some of the more specific to FR crunch like certain paragon paths (Chosen comes to mind). This is the more FR specific stuff; which universally sucks.
The book was complete crap in every way if it wasn't for the Drow, Genasi and Swordmage. The FRCG was far superior for the actual world information. The EPG is a lot better as from what I have seen/understand about it the book is actually useful for its intended point. I don't want to buy the EPG to have all the same information in the ECG. I want the EPG to tell players about the core parts of the world they should know and then the ECG tell me about the other parts so I can decide how they fit into the campaigns I'm running.
But again, I'm annoyed because I want the ECG. I find it vastly frustrating the EPG has come out before the ECG. I want to run three games but until I have the ECG in my hands this is made very difficult. So I have lots of people who want to play and the information to do so; but none of the information that's actually important in aiding me running a game.
I want the EPG to tell players about the core parts of the world they should know...
Some have complained that the book fails to do this, particularly for players that can't "fill in the gaps" with previous experience in Eberron. That's why I had repeatedly said: "If I were a player new to Eberron..." I don't necessarily want to resurrect that line of discussion, though.
I, too, would've preferred to receive the ECG first. They can't please everyone, though, and the month will pass quickly enough, I guess. We'll just have to bide our time, guessing and debating here on the forums until then. ;)
Some have complained that the book fails to do this, particularly for players that can't "fill in the gaps" with previous experience in Eberron. That's why I had repeatedly said: "If I were a player new to Eberron..." I don't necessarily want to resurrect that line of discussion, though.
Actually I believe it does.
Most of the complaints I have heard are not from my entirely new players (many of whom have it) but from people who are looking for things that PCs wouldn't know and are wondering why they aren't in the EPG. Things like "What happens when my level 1 character strolls around the Mournland" and other aspects. As someone who is new to Eberron and coming up to grips with the world as fast as I can myself; I have found the EPG is wonderful for doing precisely what it does.
It puts ALL the mechanical crunch and enough fluff in one place that anyone can start off making characters in Eberron. The problem and the failing is that without the ECG as the games DM I have no ability to assist my players in that process. Ordinarily I like to fit my players backgrounds and character concepts into the campaigns story to assist them in things they should/shouldn't know. I think it does the perfect job of explaining what should be commonly known; while leaving it to the DM to decide how what isn't commonly known fits into the world. This is precisely why it's vastly better than the grossly inferior FRPG (not to mention I am hoping this means they don't repeat tons of material: a cardinal sin).
Without the ECG I cannot do that and nor can I write my campaign easily.
I, too, would've preferred to receive the ECG first. They can't please everyone, though, and the month will pass quickly enough, I guess.
It's longer for me because it takes an additional 1-2 weeks for me to get the books into New Zealand. Sometimes I don't get them at all; I am still lacking a MM2 for example. So this is what annoys me because I may have to delay starting my games until mid-August now.
Actually I believe it does.
Most of the complaints I have heard are not from my entirely new players (many of whom have it) but from people who are looking for things that PCs wouldn't know and are wondering why they aren't in the EPG. Things like "What happens when my level 1 character strolls around the Mournland" and other aspects. As someone who is new to Eberron and coming up to grips with the world as fast as I can myself; I have found the EPG is wonderful for doing precisely what it does.
This is not at all the type of info I find lacking. This type of think definitely belongs in the EPG. We could go round and round on this, and I doubt we'd ever agree. I content to disagree and enjoy other discussions, as I do enjoy your posts.
I don't want to be mistaken for an EPG basher. I like the book, I just think it could've been better.I think it does the perfect job of explaining what should be commonly known; while leaving it to the DM to decide how what isn't commonly known fits into the world.
I think it does a good to fair job of it, but I've already said that.
This is precisely why it's vastly better than the grossly inferior FRPG (not to mention I am hoping this means they don't repeat tons of material: a cardinal sin).
I agree the content is better than the FRPG, and I'd be very unhappy if I'd gotten a bunch of repeated info.
It's longer for me because it takes an additional 1-2 weeks for me to get the books into New Zealand. Sometimes I don't get them at all; I am still lacking a MM2 for example. So this is what annoys me because I may have to delay starting my games until mid-August now.
This does suck. I'm sorry you'll have to wait so long. Until it's in your hands, you know you can ask us for any info you need. Obviously there are limits to what can be shared on the boards. Considering your plight, though, I'd be willing to use PMs and/or emails to answer any questions you may have. With specific inquiries, you may be able to glean enough to start your campaign early.
This is not at all the type of info I find lacking. This type of think definitely belongs in the EPG. We could go round and round on this, and I doubt we'd ever agree. I content to disagree and enjoy other discussions, as I do enjoy your posts.
I've barely posted anything in this forum though :P Unless you're stalking me elsewhere
I don't want to be mistaken for an EPG basher. I like the book, I just think it could've been better.
I lived through the FR boards. These complaints are minor compared to things with that setting.
I agree the content is better than the FRPG, and I'd be very unhappy if I'd gotten a bunch of repeated info.
Yeah, I am really hoping the ECG focuses on things the EPG doesn't, which from everything I've heard is the case! Repeating material between books really devalues them; because I only DM 4E and I don't play repeating material means I get a lot less value. I like having the mechanical crunch in book form; but I would like that book to be relevant even with the ECG.
This does suck. I'm sorry you'll have to wait so long. Until it's in your hands, you know you can ask us for any info you need. Obviously there are limits to what can be shared on the boards. Considering your plight, though, I'd be willing to use PMs and/or emails to answer any questions you may have. With specific inquiries, you may be able to glean enough to start your campaign early.
Well the main things I need to know are about Sharn, the Lazhaar Principalities and Xen'drik drow. Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust (Daemons in general actually) and other things would be useful too. Some of these I can compensate for as there are excellent 3.5 books that are probably still entirely relevant like Sharn: City of Towers and Secrets of Xen'drik. But I'm having to pay $100+ NZ for books to get information in time for my game instead of the one time payment of about $70ish NZ for the ECG (which would also be entirely mechanically relevant).
If my posts about the ECG coming out second sound a bit annoyed, that's pretty much the reason for it. The FRCG came out first so I got a lovely head start on writing games in the realms for my players.
I've barely posted anything in this forum though :P Unless you're stalking me elsewhere
Nooo, of course not. Heh. Why would I do that? Heh. I lived through the FR boards. These complaints are minor compared to things with that setting.
Oh, my. Those were dark days. I went from lurking to "why bother" very quickly. I didn't begin posting again in those forums until things had calmed quite a bit. That can be a tough crowd, there, but I love the core of the community. Those few are what makes that group so special.
Yeah, I am really hoping the ECG focuses on things the EPG doesn't, which from everything I've heard is the case! Repeating material between books really devalues them; because I only DM 4E and I don't play repeating material means I get a lot less value. I like having the mechanical crunch in book form; but I would like that book to be relevant even with the ECG.
I think we have nothing to worry about with the ECG. It couldn't be in better hands, and Keith's teaser-posts paint a very pretty picture. Some of the best guys in the industry are working on that one, and they're more invested in this setting than anyone. We're going to get a great product.
Well the main things I need to know are about Sharn, the Lazhaar Principalities and Xen'drik drow. Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust (Daemons in general actually) and other things would be useful too. Some of these I can compensate for as there are excellent 3.5 books that are probably still entirely relevant like Sharn: City of Towers and Secrets of Xen'drik. But I'm having to pay $100+ NZ for books to get information in time for my game instead of the one time payment of about $70ish NZ for the ECG (which would also be entirely mechanically relevant).
I hear you, on the $ front. I'm going to try to keep you in mind when I get my hands (and mind) around the ECG. Drop me a PM once it's here, if I don't drop you a line first.
If my posts about the ECG coming out second sound a bit annoyed, that's pretty much the reason for it. The FRCG came out first so I got a lovely head start on writing games in the realms for my players.
Nah, I'm not getting a bad vibe. I'd have liked to have the ECG first, as well. Of course, then I wouldn't have the Changelings, Kalashtar, Dragonmarks and the like in my hands now. Since I get to play this time around, rather than DM right off the bat, an EPG "in hand" does have its advantages.
Some have complained that the book fails to do this, particularly for players that can't "fill in the gaps" with previous experience in Eberron. That's why I had repeatedly said: "If I were a player new to Eberron..." I don't necessarily want to resurrect that line of discussion, though.
Actually, as a 3.5 Eberron DM, what I like about it is that it tells players only what their characters would know (i.e. no secrets about Kaius or Vol or the like). The gaps that need to be filled don't need to be filled for players, they need to be filled for DMs, hence the ECG.
if one talked about changeling's status you'd need to explain the reasoning behind it, which means explaining the idea of the Path of Inspiration, and it snowballs from there.
What's the changeling place in society and how does it relate to the Path of Inspiration?
What's the changeling place in society and how does it relate to the Path of Inspiration?
One of my two kalashtar players is borrowing the book right now, but in SoS, they go over the religion created by the Inspired to control the populace, where they put different people at different tiers towards a state of "Inspiration" (i.e. the Inspired), similar to reincarnation principals (i.e. live a good life, get a better next one, live a bad one, get a worse next one, etc.) and it basically goes Inspired, Chosen (the vessels that can become Inspired), Changelings, Humans, Shifters, Ogres, Ogre-Magi (who have barely controlled "bad spirits" in them, if they serve in greater Riedran society at all), and then Kalashtar, who are the worst perversions of the Path.
Again, memory might be a bit off, but that's it, in short. If you want to know more, I highly recommend picking up SoS, as it was one of the best 3.5 books in my opinion.
From the theological "Path of Inspiration" point of view: a changeling due to his ability to shade his own identity, is closer to achieving ascension then humans (above human below the Chosen), this teaching keeps the changeling population very loyal to the Inspired.
Many changelings serve in the Riedran secret police (the Thousand Eyes) so the common folk respect them (when they use their natural form).
In SoS, they go over the religion created by the Inspired to control the populace...
Indeed, and this is something the 4E books just don't go into detail on (though you actually get more information on Sarlona and the Dreaming Dark than you did in the ECS, along with a proper map of Sarlona). So to me, it's just that - they are summarizing the fact that MOST nonhumans rank below humans without taking the space to explain each one's specific station and the fact that changelings rank above humans. Which is a pit, but again, there's only so much space in a book (and in 3.5, we didn't know anything about this until SoS came out). So SoS is still going to be your primary source for Sarlona information... you just get a little more in the ECG than the ECS.
Well the main things I need to know are about Sharn, the Lazhaar Principalities and Xen'drik drow. Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust (Daemons in general actually) and other things would be useful too.
Four pages on the Lords of Dust, seven pages on Lhazaar, two pages on Xen'drik drow, seven pages on Khyber including a write-up on Belashyrra. If you have a chance to get it, the Free RPG Day includes symbionts.
I'd say the weakest of these subjects is the Xen'drik drow. It mentions the three cultures we've discussed so far (so more information than you get in the original ECS), but doesn't go into them in quite as much detail as SoX. Looking to the Umbragen, it explains that they have formed a bond with the Umbra and that this is tied to their religion, but fails to mention their struggle with the forces of the Dragon Below, which is what is bringing them to the surface these days.
Why is it that EVERY time I have a slight problem with Eberron, Hellcow shows up and makes it seem cool? :P
I have spyware on your computer that lets me know whenever you post. Seriously, however, I really do need to stop posting. I love Eberron and it's an important time for the setting, but I'm traveling and have very limited time and even less internet time, so I need to pull away from the board and enjoy the places I'm visiting. I'm going to TRY to restrain myself from further posts after this session (or at least cut down to one or two a day). Play nice!
But beyond that, other Kalashtar would argue that their greatest enemy isn't the Dreaming Dark, but rather mortal evil. That Dal Quor is a nightmare because it reflects the darkness in the world... and that every action that makes the world a brighter place moves one step closer to the turn of the age and the rise of il-Yannah. So you don't necessarily have to fight the Dreaming Dark to fight the Dreaming Dark.
This last bit gives me an idea for a story arc/character quirk:
The kalashtar PC has a "collegial" relationship with an Inspired NPC adversary. Perhaps the kalashtar's Quori soul has a history with the Inspired's Quori, or maybe (like the angel and devil in Good Omens) they simply find that as agents in the field they have more in common with each other than the architects back at the home office. They are able to meet face to face without fighting because what matters is overall scores, "league standing," rather than personal matches.
The Inspired NPC, then, can play a sort of anti-Dungeon Master (from the old cartoon) or anti-Al (from Quantum Leap). He/she (the Quori could use a couple different Inspired) shows up from time to time to check up on the kalashtar's progress, tease the kalashtar about schemes unfolding elsewhere, and dangle plot hooks in front of the party. The kalashtar might be tempted to take this friendly nemesis out at some point in the future (maybe at epic level, in the Heart of the Dreaming itself), but for the most part this Inspired is too useful a contact to lose.
I just like the idea that a PC and NPC could have a campaign-long dialogue about the fate of (a/the) universe and how they're taking control of it. The kalashtar PC may look like he's just clearing a cult of evil mushroom-people out of the local byeshk mine, but the next time he runs into that Inspired (at a tavern in Regalport) he's going to have a "moral of the story" that sets the Dreaming Dark back by this --> <-- much.
I think we have nothing to worry about with the ECG. It couldn't be in better hands, and Keith's teaser-posts paint a very pretty picture. Some of the best guys in the industry are working on that one, and they're more invested in this setting than anyone. We're going to get a great product.
Definitely. I have a feeling that this book is going to be the perfect "everything you need to know about Eberron" book. I really can't decide if I would rather have the EPG or the ECG first. Everybody likes to see how the mechanics come out. But I really like Eberron for its, um, you know, everything that makes it Eberron. Which isn't really the mechanics.
I wonder if we're going to get more on the Mark of Death.
Actually, as a 3.5 Eberron DM, what I like about it is that it tells players only what their characters would know (i.e. no secrets about Kaius or Vol or the like). The gaps that need to be filled don't need to be filled for players, they need to be filled for DMs, hence the ECG.
As an Eberron DM from day one myself, I'll agree that this approach is preferable. I just think too much was left out. There is much more fluff on any number of subjects that could've been included.
I realize we are up against a page count, but there were many instances when I thought: "A new player won't have a clue about how to play because nothing was mentioned about .
I'm not the first person to mention this deficiency, but thankfully seem to be in the minority with this opinion. I don't want to continue going in circles with it, because most are never going to agree with me. I'm fine with that, because I'd actually prefer everyone love the book (and love Eberron itself, by extension).
In the end, it doesn't impact "me and mine" since we're all longtime veterans, with myself and another having been onboard since the pre-launch hype of 3E Eberron. A lack of fluff in the EPG isn't going to hurt us one bit. I just wish it had been a little more thorough for 1st-timers. I find it to be extremely superficial.
I wonder if we're going to get more on the Mark of Death.
Seeing as I have no desire to actually bring it back, I hope not. I thought the ECS gave us plenty of info, and I'd expect the same here.
The specter of this mark's return is enough to fuel plotlines. We don't need any hard facts, in my opinion.
I just wish it had been a little more thorough for 1st-timers.
You have a point. It does seem to be just a tad bit leaning to the side of "you already know that" when they don't know that.
But I think it has enough info to keep the players on the right course. Besides if they have to much trouble they can always ask.
You have a point. It does seem to be just a tad bit leaning to the side of "you already know that" when they don't know that.
I think that's the closest anyone's come to "admitting" this (or agreeing, if you prefer) in days. :P
Besides if they have to much trouble they can always ask.
Indeed. As long as you don't have fiercely independent players who refuse DM input in their character concept, you should be fine. I've never liked playing with those types, anyway, to be honest. This attitude is generally a harbinger of things to come.
I was wondering how quick is the Lightning Rail?
I think Explorer's handbook from 3.5 rated it at around 30 miles/hour or so. I think Airships get up to 35 miles/hour but they're much faster since they can fly Over mountains.
We'd need to do a market basket price between editions and apply that to the airship's cost in the explorer's handbook or wherever the price of an airship was listed...
I think the book is great but I still have mountains of questions, but obviously I'm gonna have to wait for the campaign guide
I was a bit miffed there was no mention of the Drow in this book. Weren't the Drow quite different to FR Drow and were more common as a PC given that they weren't evil?
I was a bit miffed there was no mention of the Drow in this book. Weren't the Drow quite different to FR Drow and were more common as a PC given that they weren't evil?
The drow in Eberron are very different to FR drow, but just because they aren't evil doesn't make them more likely to be a PC race.
Eberron's drow are isolationist, xenophobic and found deep in the jungles of Xen'drik. They are cast as the mysterious savages and lost civilisations, rather than as an evil cult with heroes throwing off the shackles of their upbringing. All that makes drow PCs extremely rare despite the fact they aren't necessarily evil.
The drow in Eberron are very different to FR drow, but just because they aren't evil doesn't make them more likely to be a PC race.
Eberron's drow are isolationist, xenophobic and found deep in the jungles of Xen'drik. They are cast as the mysterious savages and lost civilisations, rather than as an evil cult with heroes throwing off the shackles of their upbringing. All that makes drow PCs extremely rare despite the fact they aren't necessarily evil.
Lost civilisations are the key. If you want to give the players information about, say, the Sulatar, you'll have to inform them about the Giant empires and the Sul'at league, Drow history and the fall of Xen'drik. Umbragen(my favourite drow civilisation) are even worse: the Umbra, the ancient civilisation of Qabalrin and the Daelkyr Belashyrra are too much information to give to the players(most are not supposed to know what a daelkyr is). You get the picture here.
Besides, with the ancient goblinoid empire of Dakhaan,a much more influential force to Eberron's history, being a mystery to the vast majority of adventurers, the Drow stood no chance.
Now, where on her body should I have the dragonmark manifest? ;)
On the small of her back!
Don't give her a tramp stamp.
In 4e, an airship costs 85,000 gp (Adventurer's Vault). Elemental galleons are obviously not statted out yet.
I wouldn't base the price of an Eberron airship off of the Adventurer's Vault Airship. AV Airships are more like Zepplins, using lighter than air gases to lift the ship off the ground. Eberron Airships are more like a cross between a boat and a 747, I mean, that fire elemental is practically a Jet Engine.
Edit- also went back to AV to check on speed and it seems that the AV airship can move about 10 mph, but I'm fairly certain that the Eberron Airships could get up to 30ish mph.
also went back to AV to check on speed and it seems that the AV airship can move about 10 mph, but I'm fairly certain that the Eberron Airships could get up to 30ish mph.
Its 20 mph actually (page 96). Hopefully they'll be statted in either the ECG or AV2.
80's Glam/Hair Rock is apparently alive and well in Sharn and Freeform.
Awww, hair metal already had a place in Eberron from 3.5E. In Korth, capital city of Karrnath, the watchmen are called the White Lions.
And I know this personally because I made sure to add in a few Easter eggs of this fact in The Darkwood Mask.
I wouldn't base the price of an Eberron airship off of the Adventurer's Vault Airship. AV Airships are more like Zepplins, using lighter than air gases to lift the ship off the ground. Eberron Airships are more like a cross between a boat and a 747, I mean, that fire elemental is practically a Jet Engine.
Edit- also went back to AV to check on speed and it seems that the AV airship can move about 10 mph, but I'm fairly certain that the Eberron Airships could get up to 30ish mph.
Yeah they're nothing like Eberron's airships. And like you said they go around 30 mph. I'm just going to go ahead and say they cost a lot of money. :D We'll probably find out in the ECG so it doesn't really matter does it?
Oh, and JohnLynch, I know you don't have the original ECS, and in there, it's 30 mpg. ;)
It's a fantastic book. Where the FRPG is my worst 4E book, the EPG is probably right up in the top five or so books thus far. I really love it and my God do I want a giant fold out map of Khorvaire. That cartography is gorgeous.
Oh, and JohnLynch, I know you don't have the original ECS, and in there, it's 30 mpg. ;)
Yup. Its just been changed for 4th ed
Yup. Its just been changed for 4th ed
Has it now?
Ahh...Pg 96.
Hmm...well...at least it's still twice as fast as the airship in the Adventurer's Vault.
Hmm...well...at least it's still twice as fast as the airship in the Adventurer's Vault.
It could also be related to the fact that Khorvaire is now smaller in 4th ed then it was in 3.5e.
It could also be related to the fact that Khorvaire is now smaller in 4th ed then it was in 3.5e.
It is! Finally something I don't know! How smll is it now? And how large was it then?
It is! Finally something I don't know! How smll is it now? And how large was it then?
I think someone said it is now ~2600 miles across, versus the old ~4800, but I don't recall where... That said, the new size is (supposedly) more in line with Hellcow's original designs.
I think someone said it is now ~2600 miles across, versus the old ~4800, but I don't recall where... That said, the new size is (supposedly) more in line with Hellcow's original designs.
Hmm. That does sound a little bit better than the original.
I think someone said it is now ~2600 miles across, versus the old ~4800, but I don't recall where... That said, the new size is (supposedly) more in line with Hellcow's original designs.
Obviously, this helps with the population density gripes common with the ECS.
Obviously, this helps with the population density gripes common with the ECS.
and with some of the odd troop movements from Forge of War...where armies magically seemed to march hundreds of miles, fought a battle, and marched back the same hundreds of miles all within a day or two.
That being said, I don't think the Airship was slowed down for 4th because they corrected the map...I think it was just arbitrarily slowed down.
and with some of the odd troop movements from Forge of War...where armies magically seemed to march hundreds of miles, fought a battle, and marched back the same hundreds of miles all within a day or two.
This made me shake my head when I first read Forge of War. An exhausted army is in no condition to fight a battle. I know this is DnD, and not beholden to real life logic, but seriously?!
If it had been magical, that would be another thing altogether. It wasn't presented that way at all, though. I knew some other readers must've noticed this, as well.
This made me shake my head when I first read Forge of War. An exhausted army is in no condition to fight a battle. I know this is DnD, and not beholden to real life logic, but seriously?!
If it had been magical, that would be another thing altogether. It wasn't presented that way at all, though. I knew some other readers must've noticed this, as well.
I actually didn't notice it at first, not being a Military buff and all. I was discussing some of the battles that I thought were interesting with some of my friends and one of them (Who is a Military Buff, and was reading the Sharpe series of novels at the time) pointed out how much some of the armies seemed to move in a given battle. I think the biggest example of this was a Mid-War Karranathi Push into Breland that took the Karranathi army 500+ miles into Brelish territory, then had them retreat back out within the same day...or something to that effect.
That being said, I don't think the Airship was slowed down for 4th because they corrected the map...I think it was just arbitrarily slowed down.
Why would they have been slowed down? They seemed fine at 30 mph. Why would they change the airships and not the elemental galleons? (I don't have the EPG on hand at this exact moment so I'm not sure if right about this.)
Anybody have any idea about how they're going to work out elemental bonding, or is that just fluff now?
Anybody have any idea about how they're going to work out elemental bonding, or is that just fluff now?
This pretty much has to be ritual magic. Even before 4E and it's rituals, I essentially imagined this as ritual magic.
They may leave it to fluff, assuming our PCs won't be building many elemental galleons. If we were going to get rules for this type of thing, I'd have expected it to be in the EPG. I don't recall seeing anything of the sort. It might've been cool to have. I can definitely imagine playing a gnome artificer or Sulatar drow who uses magic of this sort to create and/or power his or her weapons.
Oh, well. There were definitely more important things to squeeze into those 160 pages. Personally, it kind of annoys me that p.160 is always a novel advertisement, now. I understand why this is, but it still annoys me. That could be more content, or a freaking index.
I am not enthused with the idea of PCs making these though, given I've made them substantially better than normal weapons. A few of them would be almost (if not quite a bit) more powerful than a minor artifact with the way I've made them.
The elemental weapon is essentially an extra standard action per round, usually involving setting things on fire (seeing as that is their style). Usually it takes the form of a close burst attack or allows them to make a ranged attack/extra melee basic attack. Something like that...
... A few of them would be almost (if not quite a bit) more powerful than a minor artifact with the way I've made them.
I probably would've kept them more on par with the bound-elemental weapons of 3E. That way, it's not panic time if your players get a hold of one of these. There are work arounds, of course, but the player will be disappointed if he can't get the same utility out of the weapon as the bad-guy from whom he looted it.
It's just they can't make the things themselves (and they replace their abilities with daily powers and abilities; again roughly on the scale of a minor artifact). These things from my reading are pretty powerful so I want to make sure PCs can get a use out of them, but mostly keep the actual construction to the drow NPCs who create them.
I am going to miss elemental bound weapons and armor, though. But I suppose that the artificer powers take care of that if you think about it. You know that whole "your weapon deals 1d6 extra fire damage" kind of thing.
Still, kind of bumed out about that. Would have been a great idea to have the airship the PCs are riding on crash in Xen'drik and they have to bargin with the Sulatar to teach them how to fix the "ring of fire".
Let your PCs use their wacky "free standard actions every turn" weapons for half a session, then say they sputter out, or the elementals break free and attack them.
Yayz!!!! The ECG is here!!!
I think that's all I need to say. :D ;)
Anyway its not here for me, none of the stores in the area have it even though they got Divine Power this week. Odd since I actually found the EPG on the rack the day before its release date locally.
C'est la vie.
I'm curious, is there an inside joke to why you're spelling it hear instead of here?
Anyway its not here for me, none of the stores in the area have it even though they got Divine Power this week. Odd since I actually found the EPG on the rack the day before its release date locally.
C'est la vie.
The EPG sold out the day it came out (both Borders and my FLGS said the same) and perhaps the ECG did the same thing, especially if it was on the shelf the day before.
I'm curious, is there an inside joke to why you're spelling it hear instead of here?
No it's just a random blunder. In my excitement to post, my words got jumbled. Besides, what could the joke be?
I'm really happy with how the this all turned out. I can't think of any criticism. I love the ECG.
You know what? Screw it, I usually try to support my local stores and through them the local economy, but this is the first time I've ever not been able to get the book I was looking for locally. Amazon and overnight shipping it is.
When they said the Dark Side was the quick and easy path, I didn't realize "quick" was a reference to overnight shipping...
When they said the Dark Side was the quick and easy path, I didn't realize "quick" was a reference to overnight shipping...
I was wondering if you still posted from time to time. Thanks for another gread product by the way, I've had more fun in Eberron to last 6 lifetimes (of course, some of those lifetimes were shorter than others thanks to the Mournland/Xen'drik/Karrnath/Argonnessen).
When they said the Dark Side was the quick and easy path, I didn't realize "quick" was a reference to overnight shipping...
Well I have been told the dark side has cookies.
When they said the Dark Side was the quick and easy path, I didn't realize "quick" was a reference to overnight shipping...
And the "easy" is a reference to one-click shopping. :D
When they said the Dark Side was the quick and easy path, I didn't realize "quick" was a reference to overnight shipping...
You don't know the Power of the Dark Side of the Force!
Seriously, no kidding, perfect timing that delivery man.
I was worried too because it was raining that day and all day at work I had visions of a UPS box getting rained on on my stoop.
But onto the ECG... I am astounded, awed, amazed, and additional alliterative adjectives.
Really wonderful work I haven't finished everything but every time I turn the page I'm impressed. The depth of the regional information is everything I could have hoped for. The threats are amazing, the information is superb. I was going to take a hiatus from posting until I read the thing cover to cover but something in there just struck me squarely.
I'm playing a Talentan born member of House Ghallanda who is attached to the Blademarks. Just before the EPG last month came out I wrote into the backstory of my character that House Deneith had an arrangement with House Ghallanda so they didn't have to manage supply lines to both sides of every front of the war...
Now I'm pretty sure I came up with that on my lonesome, I reread the sections of the ECS, Dragonmarked, and The Forge of War on House D and House G to see if they did have any sort of official relationship, didn't see one. So I reasoned this one out.
Glad to see my reasoning was dead on, seeing as its exactly what is written on page 214 of the ECG.
Maybe I've been playing this setting too much when I can anticipate new material.
Maybe I've been playing this setting too much...
That is impossible. Stop talking nonsense.
That is impossible. Stop talking nonsense.
It's not impossible...when you start believing, honestly believing, that you are Mordain the Fleshweaver and you start trying to experiment on your Kitties "Boranel and Jaela" then you've played Eberron too much...
Fortunately I've yet to acquire a Kitty named Boranel. But little Tux Tabby Jaela...:D
Nived's post
I'll give this to the Dark Side, their service is second to none. Yesterday, just as I was pulling into my driveway the UPS truck pulled in behind me. He popped out before I even had time to close my car door to hand me the box containing the Eberron Campaign Guide and Seekers of the Ashen Crown. Seriously, no kidding, perfect timing that delivery man. I was worried too because it was raining that day and all day at work I had visions of a UPS box getting rained on on my stoop. But onto the ECG... I am astounded, awed, amazed, and additional alliterative adjectives. Really wonderful work I haven't finished everything but every time I turn the page I'm impressed. The depth of the regional information is everything I could have hoped for. The threats are amazing, the information is superb. I was going to take a hiatus from posting until I read the thing cover to cover but something in there just struck me squarely. I'm playing a Talentan born member of House Ghallanda who is attached to the Blademarks. Just before the EPG last month came out I wrote into the backstory of my character that House Deneith had an arrangement with House Ghallanda so they didn't have to manage supply lines to both sides of every front of the war... Now I'm pretty sure I came up with that on my lonesome, I reread the sections of the ECS, Dragonmarked, and The Forge of War on House D and House G to see if they did have any sort of official relationship, didn't see one. So I reasoned this one out. Glad to see my reasoning was dead on, seeing as its exactly what is written on page 214 of the ECG. Maybe I've been playing this setting too much when I can anticipate new material.