Just why is the Dreaming Dark... the Dreaming Dark? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Just why is the Dreaming Dark... the Dreaming Dark?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
PJammaGod
Jan 16, 2009 9:27:59 Okies we have fragments and scant clues as to what the Dreaming Dark was before it was the Dreaming Dark. Shira (Docent, Secrets of Xen'Drik, pg 154) talks about how the giants started the war between their empires and the Quori. Apparently the Quori were looking to the material plane for "salvation", not invasion.

And Shira called Dal Quor "the Dreaming Heart", not the Dreaming Dark. So using that and information from Secrets of Sarlona we can determine that the previous age (the term Tarantai uses to describe the fundamental cycles/shifts of Dal Quor) was one of Light, goodness, flowers and puppies.

So why did it change? If the current theorum given in Secrets of Sarlona is to be believed, the Dreaming Dark are under the impression that the ages turn naturally. But they can be encouraged through actions. So the Light of il'Yannah pray a great deal, do good deeds and hopefully propel the turning of the age forward. Meanwhile the Dreaming Dark have (and I might add rather sucessfully) stagnated imagination and emotion within Sarlona. They have created a monolothic society where nothing ever changes, where everything is blandly controlled and monitored. They are fighting against the turning of the age. Because if Dal Quor is where a person's mind goes where they dream, then it must truly be the reflection of all these dreaming minds, a quorum/gesalt manifestation of the minds that project onto that plane. And if everybody is stagnated and limited in both their lives and their dreams (in Sarlona for example), using the Hanbalani the Dreaming Dark have found quite an effective way to stop the age from turning.

So back to my original point, why is the Dreaming Dark the way it is? Why is it so nasty as compared to the Dreaming Heart and smiling children with puppies-land that it was before?

For that answer we need only look to history. According to the Giants, they used the Moonbreaker Project (City of Stormreach, pg 158) to knock Crya, the thirteenth and lost planet of Eberron (Faiths of Eberron, pg 80) out of orbit and in metaphysical terms smash Dal Quor out of it's usual Orrery orbit and render it permanently remote from Eberron.

Now the Giants had just gone through a rather horrific (by all accounts) war with the Quori. They were cowed and rather lacking in morale after coming so close to defeat. Half of the country they had once controlled had been blasted beneath the waves or irrevocably devastated by the war. And just as soon as they begin to rebuild their civilisation and get on with being the biggest thing since sliced bread the Elves decide to rebel. Now you can't blame them, after being slave and blood sacrifices for countless millenia they want to even the score and break free of their captors once and for all. Now with one war over the Giants are now dealing with effectively a civil war, an internal conflict between themselves and their often overlooked second-class citizens. And this war is reflected in their dreams and their minds in Dal Quor.

So the Giants begin work on a new secret project, one to bring the elves low and any other would-be invaders/instigators of conflict (again, City of Stormreach, pg 158). But this the dragons choose to intervene, this time the Light of Siberys and the Eyes of Chronepsis agree as one. The Dragons cannot sit idly by while the people they had helped uplift (to use David Brin's term) from savages to a utopian civilisation rush headlong into armageddon. And as one the armies of the Dragons pour out from Argonessen, arcane magic and raw might scourging all in their path. The dreams, the aspirations, the wants and desires of the giants, all are wiped out as the devastation spreads. The dragons are methodical and meticulous, they level the giant civilisation and ensure than none living upon Xen'Drik can ever achieve the heights they did. The dragons annihilate the giants. And all this, all these dreams and hopes of the giants are dashed, are turned into nightmares, into fear, into hate, into every negative emotion you can imagine. From the giants perspective they have now seen the ultimate betrayel. The dragons came to them and helped elevate to greatness. And now the giants are being destroyed by these self-same patrons. The giants are crushed and this horrific event is projected into Dal Quor, into the realm of dreams. And when an entire continent, countless tens of thousands, dream nothing but nightmares, what do you think is going to happen?

The Quori were attempting to flee the soon to be turning of the age. And now it is accelerated, now it is forced upon the plane. As thousands of giants are killed, their horrors, their nightmares float into Dal Quor, into the Dreaming Heart.

The Age turns. Xen'Drik is a smouldering ruin, there is nothing left but a few bedraggled survivors, their very minds flayed of all knowledge by the dragons to ensure they cannot rebuild their former empires. Those survivors of the Draconic Scouring soon die out, but their memories, their emotions, their dreams, their nightmares, they live on. Poured out into Dal Quor, the plane remembers. The age as has turned and now Dal Quor reflects what was, now Dal Quor is the Dreaming Dark. It is a nightmare realm to match the unspeakable horrors that were released upon Xen'Drik.

If you want to look for a cuplrit as to why Dal Quor is the way it is, why the Dreaming Dark is the Dreaming Dark, you need only look to the Dragons of Argonessen. Without even realising, when they destroyed one threat to Eberron they created an even greater and more insidious one. In destroying Xen'Drik and saving Eberron, they may very well have doomed it.

----

Your thoughts?
#2
LordDreadman
Jan 16, 2009 16:21:28 I like your idea. Very compelling. It was also just fun to read. In most cases I agree, but I did want to point out that the Moon Breaker would have caused almost certain anihilation whereas we still don't know if the Quori can manage to defeat the Dragons of Argonessen. In short, I can't fault the Dragons for choosing one over the other, but I think you're right that they really did cause Eberron to be where it is now.

Yours,
Lord Dreadman
#3
PJammaGod
Jan 16, 2009 21:37:09 The thing is the Giants weren't going to use the Moon Breaker a second time when the civil war broke out. That was the work of the Sul'at League and they were too busy dealing with elf/drow terrorism.

Instead the Giants (or at least those that lived in and around Stormreach, again pg 158)) were working on some sort of biological weapon. Without even realising it the weapon drew power from "The Scar that Abides", a Rajah imprisoned beneath Stormreach to create a weapon that would wipe out the lesser races. It's essentially a form of ebola with a dash of racism/specism to boot.

Oh and I agree with you entirely, the Dragons had to act. Yes it was a Morton Fork, but they chose the path that would be best out of the two. The catch is that path also lead to what we're seeing right now in Sarlona. And with the Dragons being masters of the Draconic Prophecy, you have to wonder what they predicted would be the outcome if they did not act. What is was so heinous that they would rather allow the Dreaming Dark to come into existence, short of the Rajah's breaking free?

Otherwise, cheerski for the reply ;) .
#4
Hellcow
Jan 19, 2009 18:33:55
And Shira called Dal Quor "the Dreaming Heart", not the Dreaming Dark. So using that and information from Secrets of Sarlona we can determine that the previous age (the term Tarantai uses to describe the fundamental cycles/shifts of Dal Quor) was one of Light, goodness, flowers and puppies.

Well, I think there's one critical issue here: how far do you trust Shira? Do you think she's going to say "Our world was a horrifying clockwork hellhole of noneuclidean automatons"? She COULD be telling the truth... or she could be spinning a tale that will help her accomplish whatever goals she has in mind. She's the only one who knows.

Personally, I don't think Dal Quor is as simple as light-dark-light-dark. We know the kalashtar believe the next cycle is one of light, and the current one is dark. Perhaps it's binary. Perhaps it's light-dim-dark-light-dim-dark. Or perhaps it's sponge-flat-dark-light.

Beyond that, I think all your thoughts are good and interesting, and many apply regardless of the morality of the previous Dal Quor. But you don't HAVE to be limited to taking Shira at her word or have a binary state for Dal Quor.
#5
PJammaGod
Jan 20, 2009 6:34:36 Oh I'm about as suspicious of Shira as one can get. I'm also deeply suspicious of the way the Dragons colour history of that era too. In fact I'm suspicious of the entire period. Just why did the Titans leave for example? Could they see the coming darkness and decided perhaps now was the time to flee. After all we know the Titans are just as old as the dragons, just not as advanced (but then again the Dragons of the first age weren't that bright either). And if they did leave why didn't the dragons pursue them? After all they were the ones that were first taught by the dragons the secrets of arcane power.

Much of my musings are based upon scant rumour and tidbits doled out from that epoch of history. So I am simply assuming a somewhat binary interpretation of what Dal Quor was all that long ago.

Anywho back on track...

That being said, what's Shira to gain by spinning moonbeams for her "allies"? Why is she (I'm assuming a female personality) trying to manipulate them into a position for personal gain? I'm not casting doubt so much as raising the intriguing question of what could be her motivation, her secret behind being so secretive? I think she probably wants to avoid the current age for whatever reason. But what as one single docent can she possibly manage? Then again, Shira may be privy to knowledge that not even the Devourer of Dreams may be aware of. After all the Quori can't actually communicate with the Heart of Dal Quor. The Devourer likes to tell everyone it can talk with the heart, but that could be pure hogwash for all we know.

Perhaps after seeing the turning of the age and somehow surviving Shira knows something that the current Quori don't know, some little trick that might let the current Quori fast-forward or slow it down, maybe even somehow "survive" it?

Too many if's, not enough definites. Curse your noir mendacity Eberron!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 PJammaGod Jan 16, 2009 9:27:59	Okies we have fragments and scant clues as to what the Dreaming Dark was before it was the Dreaming Dark. Shira (Docent, Secrets of Xen'Drik, pg 154) talks about how the giants started the war between their empires and the Quori. Apparently the Quori were looking to the material plane for "salvation", not invasion. And Shira called Dal Quor "the Dreaming Heart", not the Dreaming Dark. So using that and information from Secrets of Sarlona we can determine that the previous age (the term Tarantai uses to describe the fundamental cycles/shifts of Dal Quor) was one of Light, goodness, flowers and puppies. So why did it change? If the current theorum given in Secrets of Sarlona is to be believed, the Dreaming Dark are under the impression that the ages turn naturally. But they can be encouraged through actions. So the Light of il'Yannah pray a great deal, do good deeds and hopefully propel the turning of the age forward. Meanwhile the Dreaming Dark have (and I might add rather sucessfully) stagnated imagination and emotion within Sarlona. They have created a monolothic society where nothing ever changes, where everything is blandly controlled and monitored. They are fighting against the turning of the age. Because if Dal Quor is where a person's mind goes where they dream, then it must truly be the reflection of all these dreaming minds, a quorum/gesalt manifestation of the minds that project onto that plane. And if everybody is stagnated and limited in both their lives and their dreams (in Sarlona for example), using the Hanbalani the Dreaming Dark have found quite an effective way to stop the age from turning. So back to my original point, why is the Dreaming Dark the way it is? Why is it so nasty as compared to the Dreaming Heart and smiling children with puppies-land that it was before? For that answer we need only look to history. According to the Giants, they used the Moonbreaker Project (City of Stormreach, pg 158) to knock Crya, the thirteenth and lost planet of Eberron (Faiths of Eberron, pg 80) out of orbit and in metaphysical terms smash Dal Quor out of it's usual Orrery orbit and render it permanently remote from Eberron. Now the Giants had just gone through a rather horrific (by all accounts) war with the Quori. They were cowed and rather lacking in morale after coming so close to defeat. Half of the country they had once controlled had been blasted beneath the waves or irrevocably devastated by the war. And just as soon as they begin to rebuild their civilisation and get on with being the biggest thing since sliced bread the Elves decide to rebel. Now you can't blame them, after being slave and blood sacrifices for countless millenia they want to even the score and break free of their captors once and for all. Now with one war over the Giants are now dealing with effectively a civil war, an internal conflict between themselves and their often overlooked second-class citizens. And this war is reflected in their dreams and their minds in Dal Quor. So the Giants begin work on a new secret project, one to bring the elves low and any other would-be invaders/instigators of conflict (again, City of Stormreach, pg 158). But this the dragons choose to intervene, this time the Light of Siberys and the Eyes of Chronepsis agree as one. The Dragons cannot sit idly by while the people they had helped uplift (to use David Brin's term) from savages to a utopian civilisation rush headlong into armageddon. And as one the armies of the Dragons pour out from Argonessen, arcane magic and raw might scourging all in their path. The dreams, the aspirations, the wants and desires of the giants, all are wiped out as the devastation spreads. The dragons are methodical and meticulous, they level the giant civilisation and ensure than none living upon Xen'Drik can ever achieve the heights they did. The dragons annihilate the giants. And all this, all these dreams and hopes of the giants are dashed, are turned into nightmares, into fear, into hate, into every negative emotion you can imagine. From the giants perspective they have now seen the ultimate betrayel. The dragons came to them and helped elevate to greatness. And now the giants are being destroyed by these self-same patrons. The giants are crushed and this horrific event is projected into Dal Quor, into the realm of dreams. And when an entire continent, countless tens of thousands, dream nothing but nightmares, what do you think is going to happen? The Quori were attempting to flee the soon to be turning of the age. And now it is accelerated, now it is forced upon the plane. As thousands of giants are killed, their horrors, their nightmares float into Dal Quor, into the Dreaming Heart. The Age turns. Xen'Drik is a smouldering ruin, there is nothing left but a few bedraggled survivors, their very minds flayed of all knowledge by the dragons to ensure they cannot rebuild their former empires. Those survivors of the Draconic Scouring soon die out, but their memories, their emotions, their dreams, their nightmares, they live on. Poured out into Dal Quor, the plane remembers. The age as has turned and now Dal Quor reflects what was, now Dal Quor is the Dreaming Dark. It is a nightmare realm to match the unspeakable horrors that were released upon Xen'Drik. If you want to look for a cuplrit as to why Dal Quor is the way it is, why the Dreaming Dark is the Dreaming Dark, you need only look to the Dragons of Argonessen. Without even realising, when they destroyed one threat to Eberron they created an even greater and more insidious one. In destroying Xen'Drik and saving Eberron, they may very well have doomed it. ---- Your thoughts?
#2 LordDreadman Jan 16, 2009 16:21:28	I like your idea. Very compelling. It was also just fun to read. In most cases I agree, but I did want to point out that the Moon Breaker would have caused almost certain anihilation whereas we still don't know if the Quori can manage to defeat the Dragons of Argonessen. In short, I can't fault the Dragons for choosing one over the other, but I think you're right that they really did cause Eberron to be where it is now. Yours, Lord Dreadman
#3 PJammaGod Jan 16, 2009 21:37:09	The thing is the Giants weren't going to use the Moon Breaker a second time when the civil war broke out. That was the work of the Sul'at League and they were too busy dealing with elf/drow terrorism. Instead the Giants (or at least those that lived in and around Stormreach, again pg 158)) were working on some sort of biological weapon. Without even realising it the weapon drew power from "The Scar that Abides", a Rajah imprisoned beneath Stormreach to create a weapon that would wipe out the lesser races. It's essentially a form of ebola with a dash of racism/specism to boot. Oh and I agree with you entirely, the Dragons had to act. Yes it was a Morton Fork, but they chose the path that would be best out of the two. The catch is that path also lead to what we're seeing right now in Sarlona. And with the Dragons being masters of the Draconic Prophecy, you have to wonder what they predicted would be the outcome if they did not act. What is was so heinous that they would rather allow the Dreaming Dark to come into existence, short of the Rajah's breaking free? Otherwise, cheerski for the reply ;) .
#4 Hellcow Jan 19, 2009 18:33:55	And Shira called Dal Quor "the Dreaming Heart", not the Dreaming Dark. So using that and information from Secrets of Sarlona we can determine that the previous age (the term Tarantai uses to describe the fundamental cycles/shifts of Dal Quor) was one of Light, goodness, flowers and puppies. Well, I think there's one critical issue here: how far do you trust Shira? Do you think she's going to say "Our world was a horrifying clockwork hellhole of noneuclidean automatons"? She COULD be telling the truth... or she could be spinning a tale that will help her accomplish whatever goals she has in mind. She's the only one who knows. Personally, I don't think Dal Quor is as simple as light-dark-light-dark. We know the kalashtar believe the next cycle is one of light, and the current one is dark. Perhaps it's binary. Perhaps it's light-dim-dark-light-dim-dark. Or perhaps it's sponge-flat-dark-light. Beyond that, I think all your thoughts are good and interesting, and many apply regardless of the morality of the previous Dal Quor. But you don't HAVE to be limited to taking Shira at her word or have a binary state for Dal Quor.
#5 PJammaGod Jan 20, 2009 6:34:36	Oh I'm about as suspicious of Shira as one can get. I'm also deeply suspicious of the way the Dragons colour history of that era too. In fact I'm suspicious of the entire period. Just why did the Titans leave for example? Could they see the coming darkness and decided perhaps now was the time to flee. After all we know the Titans are just as old as the dragons, just not as advanced (but then again the Dragons of the first age weren't that bright either). And if they did leave why didn't the dragons pursue them? After all they were the ones that were first taught by the dragons the secrets of arcane power. Much of my musings are based upon scant rumour and tidbits doled out from that epoch of history. So I am simply assuming a somewhat binary interpretation of what Dal Quor was all that long ago. Anywho back on track... That being said, what's Shira to gain by spinning moonbeams for her "allies"? Why is she (I'm assuming a female personality) trying to manipulate them into a position for personal gain? I'm not casting doubt so much as raising the intriguing question of what could be her motivation, her secret behind being so secretive? I think she probably wants to avoid the current age for whatever reason. But what as one single docent can she possibly manage? Then again, Shira may be privy to knowledge that not even the Devourer of Dreams may be aware of. After all the Quori can't actually communicate with the Heart of Dal Quor. The Devourer likes to tell everyone it can talk with the heart, but that could be pure hogwash for all we know. Perhaps after seeing the turning of the age and somehow surviving Shira knows something that the current Quori don't know, some little trick that might let the current Quori fast-forward or slow it down, maybe even somehow "survive" it? Too many if's, not enough definites. Curse your noir mendacity Eberron!