Kaius Control over the undeads of Karnath army? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Kaius Control over the undeads of Karnath army?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
satanicway
Sep 17, 2011 14:45:01 I would like to know how Kaius maintains the control of the undeads of his army, and how Vol and the cult couldnt seize the control of them when Karnath banned them?

Is it possible to Vol to regain control of it somehow?

Can they make another army like that, and attack another country, to incriminate Karnath for the assault, as a vengeance for theyr "betrayal"? Or they arent able to reproduce that kind of undeads?

Sorry for this questions, its just that im DMing a campaign and i need to know this to have some ideas for plots.

Thx.
#2
Ogiwan
Sep 17, 2011 17:58:01
I would like to know how Kaius maintains the control of the undeads of his army, and how Vol and the cult couldnt seize the control of them when Karnath banned them?

To my knowledge, it was never explicitly spelled out in the books. No surprise there; one of the principles behind Eberron is that you have room to seriously play with it.

Is it possible to Vol to regain control of it somehow?

Why not?

Can they make another army like that, and attack another country, to incriminate Karnath for the assault, as a vengeance for theyr "betrayal"? Or they arent able to reproduce that kind of undeads?

I like the cut of your jib. As for the Blood not being able to reproduce the undead, well, I figure they can probably do some small-scale normal undead production, maybe a bit more efficient than your average necromancer, but I don't think they have access to the resources of a nation-state, which precludes them from amassing armies. Normally. Of course, DM plotting may change this; I had a campaign centered around an EC plot to turn everybody in Sharn during the Race of the Eight Winds into undead under the control of the EC.

Sorry for this questions, its just that im DMing a campaign and i need to know this to have some ideas for plots.

Thx.

Yeah. One thing to remember about DMing: By and large, you have access to unobtanium. You can change rules. Especially if it has to do with plot.
#3
CorrinAvatan
Sep 18, 2011 10:48:47 In the book "The Five Nations," a 3.5 Suppliment, it was stated that the undead are, for the most part, mindless, and that Bone Knights (a 3.5 prestige class) actually led them into battle.

There IS mention that some of the zombies/skeletons are "Karrnatthi Zombies/Skeletons," which were undead that kept their martial prowess and mental capacities after being turned. However, the majority of the undead needed to be led by Bone Knights, and it is mentioned that, if a Bone Knight is killed, the undead were easier to deal with, as they stopped working as a unit.

You have to remember: the secrets of necromancy were given to Karrnath by the Blood of Vol. It would make sense if Vol put in some type of "back door" to control them.
#4
Madfox11
Sep 20, 2011 4:17:38 The question is though why should she? What does Vol gain by rekindling the war? Of course, the religion the Blood of Vol is not a unified body and many of the worshippers (including middle management) are loyal Karnnathi. As a group they have no reason to act against the rulers of the country. At the same time, upper management might, but they know the limitations of their own power and the fact that they would stand no chance if they openly attack the Karnathi government. Nothing unites people quicker than a common enemy, and it might very well be the end of Kaius, but it might very well result the Silver Flame marching en-mass into the country. Those undead leaders remember very well what the Church of the Silver Flame did during the Purge to lycanthropes. As an undead force you really do not want to draw too much attention, especially not if mass murder, war and mayhem is not your goal. Vol is ancient, and she has all the time in the world. For all we know, Kaius just thinks he got away from Vol's control and it is all part of the plan ;)

Of course, you are the DM and giving the above are simple quick explanations for those DMs who don't want to deal with a plague of undead. It is easy to change things if you want to. How much does depend a bit on your players. DMs might have access to unobtanium, but keep the suspension of disbelief in mind of your players ;)
#5
PJammaGod
Sep 20, 2011 11:14:16 Whilst the Blood of Vol provided a lot of training on how to prepare, raise and preserve undead, they weren't necessarily the ones doing it. Karrnath quickly took control, with the portfolio falling into the hands of the newly created Minister for the Dead (if memory serves). Basically when Kaius the 3rd flipped the bird at the Emerald Claw and Vol in general, he had the obvious Vol players removed from Karrnath. However the control of the undead armies was retained by the Minister and those that serve under him. Vol and the Claw weren't commanding the undead, just supplying knowledge, logistics and some specialists. The bulk of the skeletons and zombies were controlled by the Karrnathi Ministry for the Dead.

Contrary to popular belief, Karrnath isn't undead happy like the Vampire Counts of Warhammer. They use them as tools of war and then store them away when not in active use. I believe Karrnath has several mausoleum/bunkers situated throughout the country with vast reserves of undead held under close watch, with Karrnathi aligned Necromancers keeping nominal control of the undead forces.

When it isn't past midnight on my little patch of the planet I'll dig out the specific books and references. I shall return in eight hours ;) .
#6
Ogiwan
Sep 21, 2011 7:33:53 Well said, PJ.

I always wanted to run a Roleplay encounter where the PCs have to go to a mausoleum where the undead are stored. I figured it would be a walled compound with four large ziggarauts (one for each of the Risen Patriot brigades in a RP division) around a central office, where the humans are. The staffers would reluctantly take them to a zigarraut to show them that there were no undead missing. They walk in, and the lights come on sequentually to show a massive room full of skeletons and zombies, witchfire glowing in their eyes. The PCs then would hopefully ask to go to another brigade's zigarraut, where there would be....nothing. Because the Emerald Claw managed to steal a brigade of undead.

#7
Madfox11
Sep 22, 2011 3:56:58
Well said, PJ.

I always wanted to run a Roleplay encounter where the PCs have to go to a mausoleum where the undead are stored. I figured it would be a walled compound with four large ziggarauts (one for each of the Risen Patriot brigades in a RP division) around a central office, where the humans are. The staffers would reluctantly take them to a zigarraut to show them that there were no undead missing. They walk in, and the lights come on sequentually to show a massive room full of skeletons and zombies, witchfire glowing in their eyes. The PCs then would hopefully ask to go to another brigade's zigarraut, where there would be....nothing. Because the Emerald Claw managed to steal a brigade of undead.

Or something go amiss while the PCs are in the middle of such a compound and the undead all start killing everything alive just to get that Resident Evil feel ;)

#8
Hellcow
Sep 26, 2011 10:24:50 It just maybe be that October's Eye on Eberron will touch on this subject...

One critical point to remember is that the Blood of Vol faith is NOT the cult of Erandis Vol or the Order of the Emerald Claw. The Blood of Vol has roots in the region that predate Karrn the Conqueror. Most of the faithful of the Blood of Vol are first and foremost Karrnathi patriots. The Order of the Emerald Claw has been disavowed and the Blood of Vol has lost the support of the crown, but it only had that support for a tiny fraction of its history and it hasn't changed the attitude of most Seekers. So, followers of the Emerald Claw are potentially dangerous traitors scheming on behalf of Erandis... But many Seekers are entirely loyal to Kaius and to Karrnath, and are happy to maintain the undead until their nation needs them again. As noted, that is the role of the Ministry of the Dead, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
#9
truhlik
Oct 16, 2011 4:54:20 I seem to remember from one of the Eberron novels that there were specific items - cloaks with skeletal knobs(?) - which gave the wearer a degree of control over the undead and a military authority at the same time.

There were several tiers of these cloaks, the higher tier overruling the lesser ones. It is possible that Kaius has the ultimate "cloak" (or ring, scepter, amulet) which secures him the control over the army of undead.

The other question is, how does him being the vampire put HIM into possible control by Erandis?

#10
CloudDragon
Oct 19, 2011 11:32:41 truhlik are you asking: how does King Kaius being turned into a vampire make him Erandis' pawn? in which case, I'd note that perhaps her magic allows her to do that, it wasn't explained in 3.5, and that Kaius fought her control and succeeded in retaining his free will... as far as he knows, as Madfox11 cleverly stated; or, are you asking: would the item you listed effect him or not if Erandis Vol wore it? in which case, i haven't had the pleasure of reading that novel so i wouldn't have the slightest clue, i'd hedge toward no as he's already fought her and won once, and i want to read that novel it now that i know it exists.
PJammaGod brings up a question i've wanted answered for a while: What is the role of the Minister of the Dead in Karrnath?
CorrinAvatan where do Bone Knights stand next to Karrnathi Dread Marshals (Forge of War)?
your awesome Hellcow-ness i thank you for creating such an awesome campaign setting and your posts have always gone a great way toward answering my Eberron-related questions
i come from a 3.5 background so if things changed in 4e or it was stated in D&D Insider i wouldn't know about it (just going off what i've read and personal speculation)
#11
Starsomava
Nov 11, 2011 12:11:38 in many mythologies vampires are traditionally magically compelled to follow the orders of the one that made them into a vampire, thus it makes sense that Kaius would be magically compelled to follow Vol's orders, at least at first. In my campaign I have as part of the backstory that when Kaius wasn't on the throne he was off adventuring to find a way to free himself from her control, and when he came back as Kaius the 3rd he stripped the undead nobles of their land and title purely for fear that Vol would control them. I didn't specify exactly how Kaius freed himself, but i figured it had something to do with Queen Etrigani and a trip to Arenal to learn about undead over there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 satanicway Sep 17, 2011 14:45:01	I would like to know how Kaius maintains the control of the undeads of his army, and how Vol and the cult couldnt seize the control of them when Karnath banned them? Is it possible to Vol to regain control of it somehow? Can they make another army like that, and attack another country, to incriminate Karnath for the assault, as a vengeance for theyr "betrayal"? Or they arent able to reproduce that kind of undeads? Sorry for this questions, its just that im DMing a campaign and i need to know this to have some ideas for plots. Thx.
#2 Ogiwan Sep 17, 2011 17:58:01	I would like to know how Kaius maintains the control of the undeads of his army, and how Vol and the cult couldnt seize the control of them when Karnath banned them? To my knowledge, it was never explicitly spelled out in the books. No surprise there; one of the principles behind Eberron is that you have room to seriously play with it. Is it possible to Vol to regain control of it somehow? Why not? Can they make another army like that, and attack another country, to incriminate Karnath for the assault, as a vengeance for theyr "betrayal"? Or they arent able to reproduce that kind of undeads? I like the cut of your jib. As for the Blood not being able to reproduce the undead, well, I figure they can probably do some small-scale normal undead production, maybe a bit more efficient than your average necromancer, but I don't think they have access to the resources of a nation-state, which precludes them from amassing armies. Normally. Of course, DM plotting may change this; I had a campaign centered around an EC plot to turn everybody in Sharn during the Race of the Eight Winds into undead under the control of the EC. Sorry for this questions, its just that im DMing a campaign and i need to know this to have some ideas for plots. Thx. Yeah. One thing to remember about DMing: By and large, you have access to unobtanium. You can change rules. Especially if it has to do with plot.
#3 CorrinAvatan Sep 18, 2011 10:48:47	In the book "The Five Nations," a 3.5 Suppliment, it was stated that the undead are, for the most part, mindless, and that Bone Knights (a 3.5 prestige class) actually led them into battle. There IS mention that some of the zombies/skeletons are "Karrnatthi Zombies/Skeletons," which were undead that kept their martial prowess and mental capacities after being turned. However, the majority of the undead needed to be led by Bone Knights, and it is mentioned that, if a Bone Knight is killed, the undead were easier to deal with, as they stopped working as a unit. You have to remember: the secrets of necromancy were given to Karrnath by the Blood of Vol. It would make sense if Vol put in some type of "back door" to control them.
#4 Madfox11 Sep 20, 2011 4:17:38	The question is though why should she? What does Vol gain by rekindling the war? Of course, the religion the Blood of Vol is not a unified body and many of the worshippers (including middle management) are loyal Karnnathi. As a group they have no reason to act against the rulers of the country. At the same time, upper management might, but they know the limitations of their own power and the fact that they would stand no chance if they openly attack the Karnathi government. Nothing unites people quicker than a common enemy, and it might very well be the end of Kaius, but it might very well result the Silver Flame marching en-mass into the country. Those undead leaders remember very well what the Church of the Silver Flame did during the Purge to lycanthropes. As an undead force you really do not want to draw too much attention, especially not if mass murder, war and mayhem is not your goal. Vol is ancient, and she has all the time in the world. For all we know, Kaius just thinks he got away from Vol's control and it is all part of the plan ;) Of course, you are the DM and giving the above are simple quick explanations for those DMs who don't want to deal with a plague of undead. It is easy to change things if you want to. How much does depend a bit on your players. DMs might have access to unobtanium, but keep the suspension of disbelief in mind of your players ;)
#5 PJammaGod Sep 20, 2011 11:14:16	Whilst the Blood of Vol provided a lot of training on how to prepare, raise and preserve undead, they weren't necessarily the ones doing it. Karrnath quickly took control, with the portfolio falling into the hands of the newly created Minister for the Dead (if memory serves). Basically when Kaius the 3rd flipped the bird at the Emerald Claw and Vol in general, he had the obvious Vol players removed from Karrnath. However the control of the undead armies was retained by the Minister and those that serve under him. Vol and the Claw weren't commanding the undead, just supplying knowledge, logistics and some specialists. The bulk of the skeletons and zombies were controlled by the Karrnathi Ministry for the Dead. Contrary to popular belief, Karrnath isn't undead happy like the Vampire Counts of Warhammer. They use them as tools of war and then store them away when not in active use. I believe Karrnath has several mausoleum/bunkers situated throughout the country with vast reserves of undead held under close watch, with Karrnathi aligned Necromancers keeping nominal control of the undead forces. When it isn't past midnight on my little patch of the planet I'll dig out the specific books and references. I shall return in eight hours ;) .
#6 Ogiwan Sep 21, 2011 7:33:53	Well said, PJ. I always wanted to run a Roleplay encounter where the PCs have to go to a mausoleum where the undead are stored. I figured it would be a walled compound with four large ziggarauts (one for each of the Risen Patriot brigades in a RP division) around a central office, where the humans are. The staffers would reluctantly take them to a zigarraut to show them that there were no undead missing. They walk in, and the lights come on sequentually to show a massive room full of skeletons and zombies, witchfire glowing in their eyes. The PCs then would hopefully ask to go to another brigade's zigarraut, where there would be....nothing. Because the Emerald Claw managed to steal a brigade of undead.
#7 Madfox11 Sep 22, 2011 3:56:58	Well said, PJ. I always wanted to run a Roleplay encounter where the PCs have to go to a mausoleum where the undead are stored. I figured it would be a walled compound with four large ziggarauts (one for each of the Risen Patriot brigades in a RP division) around a central office, where the humans are. The staffers would reluctantly take them to a zigarraut to show them that there were no undead missing. They walk in, and the lights come on sequentually to show a massive room full of skeletons and zombies, witchfire glowing in their eyes. The PCs then would hopefully ask to go to another brigade's zigarraut, where there would be....nothing. Because the Emerald Claw managed to steal a brigade of undead. Or something go amiss while the PCs are in the middle of such a compound and the undead all start killing everything alive just to get that Resident Evil feel ;)
#8 Hellcow Sep 26, 2011 10:24:50	It just maybe be that October's Eye on Eberron will touch on this subject... One critical point to remember is that the Blood of Vol faith is NOT the cult of Erandis Vol or the Order of the Emerald Claw. The Blood of Vol has roots in the region that predate Karrn the Conqueror. Most of the faithful of the Blood of Vol are first and foremost Karrnathi patriots. The Order of the Emerald Claw has been disavowed and the Blood of Vol has lost the support of the crown, but it only had that support for a tiny fraction of its history and it hasn't changed the attitude of most Seekers. So, followers of the Emerald Claw are potentially dangerous traitors scheming on behalf of Erandis... But many Seekers are entirely loyal to Kaius and to Karrnath, and are happy to maintain the undead until their nation needs them again. As noted, that is the role of the Ministry of the Dead, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
#9 truhlik Oct 16, 2011 4:54:20	I seem to remember from one of the Eberron novels that there were specific items - cloaks with skeletal knobs(?) - which gave the wearer a degree of control over the undead and a military authority at the same time. There were several tiers of these cloaks, the higher tier overruling the lesser ones. It is possible that Kaius has the ultimate "cloak" (or ring, scepter, amulet) which secures him the control over the army of undead. The other question is, how does him being the vampire put HIM into possible control by Erandis?
#10 CloudDragon Oct 19, 2011 11:32:41	truhlik are you asking: how does King Kaius being turned into a vampire make him Erandis' pawn? in which case, I'd note that perhaps her magic allows her to do that, it wasn't explained in 3.5, and that Kaius fought her control and succeeded in retaining his free will... as far as he knows, as Madfox11 cleverly stated; or, are you asking: would the item you listed effect him or not if Erandis Vol wore it? in which case, i haven't had the pleasure of reading that novel so i wouldn't have the slightest clue, i'd hedge toward no as he's already fought her and won once, and i want to read that novel it now that i know it exists. PJammaGod brings up a question i've wanted answered for a while: What is the role of the Minister of the Dead in Karrnath? CorrinAvatan where do Bone Knights stand next to Karrnathi Dread Marshals (Forge of War)? your awesome Hellcow-ness i thank you for creating such an awesome campaign setting and your posts have always gone a great way toward answering my Eberron-related questions i come from a 3.5 background so if things changed in 4e or it was stated in D&D Insider i wouldn't know about it (just going off what i've read and personal speculation)
#11 Starsomava Nov 11, 2011 12:11:38	in many mythologies vampires are traditionally magically compelled to follow the orders of the one that made them into a vampire, thus it makes sense that Kaius would be magically compelled to follow Vol's orders, at least at first. In my campaign I have as part of the backstory that when Kaius wasn't on the throne he was off adventuring to find a way to free himself from her control, and when he came back as Kaius the 3rd he stripped the undead nobles of their land and title purely for fear that Vol would control them. I didn't specify exactly how Kaius freed himself, but i figured it had something to do with Queen Etrigani and a trip to Arenal to learn about undead over there.