Kill the King!

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

ellorin

Dec 20, 2009 17:01:36
Hello everyone! I'd like to present you with a question.

 Suppose that you are a student of the prophecy and can boast of a relatively good knowledge of Khorvairian society(say, a high-ranking agent of House Sivis or the Royal Eyes of Aundair or even the Chamber). Now, according to the fragments of the Prophecy that you unearthed, in order to ensure the survival of your nation/house through the current crisisl, "a King from the Land of Demons (a.k.a. Khorvaire)must die". Let's assume that you decide to act on it. The question is the following: who would your target be and why?
#2

Gilo

Dec 20, 2009 17:46:29
Unless there is a catch (and there always is) doesn't it comes down to King Boranel, Kaius, Vadallia (or Haruuc?)... I'll probably go for Vadallia he may have been replaced by a yuan-ti.
#3

ellorin

Dec 20, 2009 18:32:20
Please, interprete the terms any way you will. I am curious to see what my fellow Eberronians will say.
#4

blackmage88

Dec 20, 2009 22:31:20
If we're sticking to preestablished individuals then the target is probably among the Bleak Congress or whatever it is that lurks in the Lair of the Keeper.

My view of 'a King' makes me think the Prophecy is being specific at the same time it's being vague, referring to a particular King/lord/ruler but without giving us the details, because where would be the fun in that? When I hear 'Land of Demons' my first instinct is to look to the Demon Wastes.
#5

Gilo

Dec 20, 2009 23:52:46
Other ideas:

- Maybe Jarot, Gaiffar or Karrn have become a Lich and need to be destroyed.
- Kaius's grandson in Dreadhold.
- a feyspire eladrin king of [insert session]
- a head of a dragonmarked house.
- a human in Khorvaire which is the last of a line of kings of one of the old Sarlona kingdoms.


#6

Madfox11

Dec 21, 2009 6:32:59
Due to the reference to the Land of Demons, I would also look at demonic kings and not mortal ones. I would definitely not pick a random king, especially since something as vague as a prophecy might not even mean an existing king of an existing kingdom. That is assuming, I would not simply ignore the whole prophecy thing, which I admit, I am much more likely to do.

Then again, as a player I absolutely detest prophecies which shows itself in my characters* and adventures**. By their very nature prophecies are vague, meaning you have no guarantee your interpretation is the correct one. At the same time, the implecation of prophecies tend to be very far-reaching. The fact that some dragons go insane or simply do nothing but watch seems like a good clue never to take prophecies too seriously: that way lays madness. I mean, could you really justify destroying a whole country because you think that some string of weird symbols suggest that if you don't something worse happens? You must be rather mind boggling arrogant to belief you understand them correctly and that you have not been manipulated in believing something else by dark forces. Of course, that is exactly what dragons are. So it does make sense in Eberron Wink

* If my DM reads it: you are warned Wink
** There are prophecies in my adventures, but usually I use them to depict the madness in paying them too much heed, or as one tool among many to give some clues to the PCs.
#7

rekko

Dec 21, 2009 11:50:00
It could also be a bard/actor proclaimed the King of the Theater, an award for best actor of the year. The Land of Demons is the title of the play in which he stars.

You know, I know it, the Prophecy is misleading.

Rekko
#8

RedRider

Dec 21, 2009 11:57:12
"Land of demons" could just as easily mean a number of places in Xen'drik or Argonessen (and even The Frostfell) where Raksasha Rajahs are bound. Not to mention Khyber and other planes.
The Demon Wastes would definitely be a strong candidate, but the prophecy can be tricky on that count.

Also, King can mean any number of things. Actual kings, high ranking authority figures (The prophecy may be misinterpreted so "dragonmarked baron" gets read as "king") people named "king", pretentious bandit-kings...

And "Kill"? What if it just means I have to collapse the Six Kings statue in south west Khorvaire?
Or win a game of chess? Or "Kill" King Boranel's character while we're playing GURPS on tuesdays.

If I wanted to use this prophecy to my advantage, I would prepare my agents to kill someone (Just because the prophecy could mean something else, doesn't mean it isn't actually pretty straightforwards) and watch for more signs and portents.
#9

AvonRekaes

Dec 22, 2009 9:28:41

As a character in Eberron, I would decide it was either King Kaius or King Boranel, depending on what nation I lived in or in who's absece I stood to gain the most obvious advantage from.

As a DM concocting this prophecy, the twist would be to do nothing. Kaius is already dead. His current status as undead would be the key to my faction's survival, somehow. I would then drop clues into the adventure for my PCs to figure this out.

#10

Sarlax

Dec 22, 2009 23:55:06
As a DM concocting this prophecy, the twist would be to do nothing. Kaius is already dead.


This gives me two ideas. 

First, maybe a better translation of the passage is "The king must remain dead." Maybe Kaius is worried that Vol might be able to trigger his bloodlust again, so he is near to finding a way to become human again. If he regains his mortality, Eberron is in trouble.

Second, what if the existence of two Karrnathi kings (Kaius 1 and Kaius 3) is problematic for the Prophecy? There may be a passage that refers to some important role "The King of Karrnath" is going to play, but the existence of two current kings means that the Prophecy cannot be fulfilled in any case - or two opposing possibilities can occur at once. Until the duality of kingship is resolved (through the true death of one or the other), the Prophecy is blind to the fate of Kaius (both) and Karrnath. 
#11

Sarlax

Dec 23, 2009 0:02:52
Another possibility, again, is metaphorical. The Swords of Liberty would certainly like this idea: "Monarchy must end." IE, there should be no kings or queens at all in Khorvaire. All regents must be gone for this passage to be rendered true.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean democracy. Monarchy could be as easily replaced by theocracy (the Silver Flame), meritocracy (the Houses), or plutocracy (the Aurum).

I find the interpretations of the passage more interesting than the "truth." I'd be keen to see what happens in Khorvaire if the passage is authenticated - that its metaphysical and prophetic power is pure and accurate, even if its meaning is obscured.

If people came to believe that the passage were "true" that the king must die, what would people do? It's the kind of thing that would start another war. 
#12

Fingolfin_Aeros

Dec 23, 2009 11:06:43
Also, don't forget that you have at least The Chamber and The Lords of Dust competing with the prophecy (and also possibly the Undying Court).  So while it may be a valid part of the Draconic Prophecy, whose interests does this event stand to favor?  Perhaps they're not trying to kill the king, but they're trying to protect them.  And, generally, I think the prophecy would give a better hint to who.  Not by saying "King Kaius III" explicitly, but maybe referring to the twice crowned king.  Or referring to the displaced king of Cyre.
#13

soyim

Dec 23, 2009 13:04:24
Hrmmm- for proper Eberron Noir Tone i would go with Kaius III; the Real One. So this involves breaking into Dreadhold; finding the most heavily guarded and dangerous political prisoner of all time (who is also innocent of pretty much everything) and then killing him- or letting him get killed (or Vamped). 
#14

Sarlax

Dec 24, 2009 1:45:40
finding the most heavily guarded and dangerous political prisoner of all time (who is also innocent of pretty much everything)


Is that really known? K1 seemed perfectly content to let K2 rule, but he replaced K3. Maybe K3 was actually set to be a terrible king. Hell, maybe K1 is actually the first to become aware of the passage, and locked away his grandson, hoping that imprisonment would be sufficient to avert the outcome.

IE, perhaps a free K3 would have actually united the warlords of Karrnath, who then conquer all of Khorvaire. The new empire would have been pro-undead and bloodthirsty, leading to wars against Sarlona and beyond that would have torn Khorvaire apart. 

Of course, since K3 isn't dead but simply displaced, the Prophecy may now be met in a worse way: rather than uniting warlords, K3 manages to rally and command the worst of dreadhold. His army of criminals and monsters will rampage across Eberron - unless he is killed before the army is built. 
#15

Madfox11

Dec 24, 2009 5:49:37
The situation during K2 was quiet different from the current situation in Eberron.  During the reign of K2 the war was going on, no sign of an end, but also no sign of its destructiveness. I am also not sure when exactly K1 got away from the control by Vol, nor do we know how difficult it was for K1 to replace K2 compared to K3. Remember, during the early reign of K2 everybody knew K1 while by the reign of K3 (who is rather young - the age of his sister is 15) nobody alive (except for some elves and dwarves) remember K1 in person.
#16

Sarlax

Dec 24, 2009 22:02:09
The situation during K2 was quiet different from the current situation in Eberron.  During the reign of K2 the war was going on, no sign of an end, but also no sign of its destructiveness.


K1 took over again in 991, almost a full century into the war. K2 had ruled, apparently, since 910, although there may have been viceroys at times. Anyway, there's nothing about 991 or the preceding years to suggest that the Last War had changed much - there's no explicit reason for K1 to have resumed ruling Karrnath.


I am also not sure when exactly K1 got away from the control by Vol, nor do we know how difficult it was for K1 to replace K2 compared to K3. Remember, during the early reign of K2 everybody knew K1 while by the reign of K3 (who is rather young - the age of his sister is 15) nobody alive (except for some elves and dwarves) remember K1 in person.


Well, K1 was last known to live in 910 (the year he faked his death). He came back 81 years later. That's outside the life span of must humans, except of course those with access to the best medical care from Jorasco and less dangerous lives - such as members of court and the nobility. Again, that's human only. 

In all likelihood, some significant portion of Karrnath's nobility and warlords aren't even human. Some gnomes and elves are probably in mix, but dwarves would be the most common nonhuman race, given Mror's former status as a territory of Karrnath. K1 probably eliminated the long-lived servants who knew him from <910, but he couldn't get rid of everyone in the upper class who would be meeting him twice.

In 991 and still in 998, there are probably many people who saw K1 before 910 and have since seen him after 991. It seems to be oft stated in Karrnath "Wow, K3 is the spitting image of his grandfather, isn't he?" Everyone knows there's a resemblance, even people who haven't seen them both in person. There'd be no end of portraits, journals, etc. that referred to them.

Of course, it's not really a problem. Lots of people look like their ancestors - my brother looks just like my grandfather, but I don't think a vampire was involved. It doesn't matter if people happen to note that they look exactly alike, because strong resemblance is common.
#17

Duke5150

Dec 25, 2009 0:17:46
Well, considering the prophecy, I wouldn't immediately assume a "king" means a position of power or royalty. It could be a surname. It could be a john king the stable boy or it could be Katherine King the house maid. Hell, it could even be King, the veterans loyal hunting hound. Maybe its an artifact that has to be destroyed. Maybe its a language, a script or text or some other abstract thing titled "King".

Die could mean many things, one of which is the ending of life. But when dealing with the prophecy, it could mean the destruction of text, the drying of a riverbed or lake or the collapse of a mineshaft. You never know.
#18

thaliost

Dec 25, 2009 18:09:14
How about the king of Darguun? If he is truly a descendent of the Dhakaan empire, he is a king worth killing.

But when the character looks at the prophecy, he/she may not forget the claimed neutrality of the dragonmarked houses. If he/she is caught commiting a crime against any real king on the land, he/she may in turn destroy his/her own house. In that case, I would try to interpret the prophecy in another way, where "a king from the land of demons" doesn't necessarily mean "a king of the land of demons". Thus I would make someone "king of the craft" or "king of the script", and get him killed, therefore fulfilling the prophecy.
#19

PJammaGod

Dec 28, 2009 2:07:05
Lhesh Haruuc isn't a true descendant of the line of Dhakanni Kings. He is however an exceedingly charismatic warrior and a true tactician. Haruuc rules because his might says he should rule. But he isn't a bloodline related king. Now on the other hand if the bickering clans of the Dhakaani, high up in the mountains actually found a descendant and united under him. That's a different story. If the Hobgoblins learned to get along I have no doubt in my mind they could use their vast military might and skill to claim more than just Darguun.

Mayhap the would-be-king of Dhakaan must die, lest all of Khorvaire be thrown into yet another war.
#20

thaliost

Dec 28, 2009 22:26:53
Lhesh Haruuc isn't a true descendant of the line of Dhakanni Kings. He is however an exceedingly charismatic warrior and a true tactician. Haruuc rules because his might says he should rule. But he isn't a bloodline related king. Now on the other hand if the bickering clans of the Dhakaani, high up in the mountains actually found a descendant and united under him. That's a different story. If the Hobgoblins learned to get along I have no doubt in my mind they could use their vast military might and skill to claim more than just Darguun.

Mayhap the would-be-king of Dhakaan must die, lest all of Khorvaire be thrown into yet another war.



I recall whether he was a true descendent of the empire was a question left to the DM to answer in 3.5. Is this updated in 4E?
Yours of a true heir of Dhakaan uniting the hobgoblins is an interesting idea. That sounds suitable as a full-fledged storyline by itself.
#21

Madfox11

Dec 29, 2009 4:39:39
I don't think it is said whether or not he is a "true" heir, but to be honest, unless there is divinations involved, I sincerely doubt there is any way to trace any lineage. It is way too long ago for reliable family trees. Besides, in RL using DNA scientist found that a huge number of people can trace their lineage back to a few important males such as Kublai Khan and that is just 1000 years ago. I imagine that it becomes much worse in regards to several millenia (and as far I know goblins have the same generation time as humans). And that is assuming that they are monogamous (sp?), which might not be true either.
#22

PJammaGod

Dec 29, 2009 4:47:34
Ultimately it's up to the DM to craft Eberron as they see fit. However I do (on a personal level) see it an an injustice and cop-out that Lhesh Haruuc is a direct (or indirect) bloodline descendant. In essence here is a hobgoblin whom, for the first time since the Dhakaani Empire fell, has managed to unite a significant group of the greater goblinoid population. Heck he's even rightfully claimed a kingdom for them (recognised in the Thronehold Accords).

And this is a hobgoblin without any bloodline ties to the past. He has no added edge, no "I'm special because I have more midichlorians that you" type character. No this is someone who has done this through the "sweat of his brow" (to quote Ryan). That seems to ring more true to me both as a writer, as a DM and as a player. It gives players the motivation to true hard to suceed at their goals because if a lowly Hobgoblin can do it, so can they. They aren't born into power or have family ties to it, they make if for themselves, like real Heroes.

Anywho just my 2 cents worth on the topic.
#23

kilpatds

Dec 29, 2009 9:34:49
So apparently I'm the only one who assumed it would refer to a leather-wearing music performer who's popularizing a new type of music...