I mean if you look at the history available in the 3.5 books, House Vol was wiped out because of an alliance between elves and dragons. Sure the Vol followers practiced necromancy (but so what? Karrnath does the same..), but their goals, according to some sources, was to create peace between the elves and the dragons. Lady Vol's mother and father was in love and she was the result of that love. But because of Lady Vol, the other Aereanal elves and the other dragons wiped out those with the mark of Death.
Why?
They didn't like half-dragons.
Rather weak reason to exterminate an entire family. Especially when the goal was to create peace between elves and dragons.
House Vol didn't get wiped out because of necromancy as they had always been practicing that (in secret, but still). It was only for the union between the green dragons and House Vol.
In my campaign I plan to have Lady Vol's scheme as the main plot, but I'm having trouble seeing her as the villain. How can the Undying Court and the dragons justify their actions?
a) their common animosity towards undeath
b) the vast differences in doctrine between the Priests of Transition and the followers of Vol(with the former accusing the latter of endangering the whole world by manipulating the forces of Mabar and supporting a worldview where the select few actually prey on the common folk, whereas the relationship between the Court and its followers is based on devotion and respect) and
c)the fact that, when it comes to the Dragons and the Deathless, the Prophecy is always prevalent, and we can see that the birth of a half-dragon elf per se doesn't seem like the true reason. I don't think that any of these reasons absolves the perpetrators, yet there are pieces of the puzzle no mortal is aware of, so it can be hard to make a final judgement.
As for sympathising with Erandis...not really, no. Not any more, at least. She has fooled and betrayed the vast majority of the followers of the Blood of Vol, corrupting the message of the faith. Instead of the ultimate protector of the followers of Vol she became the so-called Queen of Death, who in her hubris plots to become a goddess, all in the name of power and revenge. She played with the lives of millions and the fate of at least one nation. She created the murderous Order of the Emerald Claw. So no, I can't sympathise with her. Her story is a tragic one, but it dosen't absolve her actions in any way. Too many innocent people have suffered or will suffer because of her.
Am I the only one who sympathise with Lady Vol and her goal to get revenge?
I consider her to be a tragic figure. Bear in mind, her line wasn't exterminated because of an ALLIANCE with dragons. They were exterminated because of crossbreeding with dragons, which produced a dragonmarked half-dragon heir who (according to the Prophecy) would possess power beyond anything the mark had ever possessed before. What was said by those seeking to justify the attack was that a single drop of Vol blood could destroy the world. Again, words used to JUSTIFY the attack, so it's the victors both interpreting the Prophecy and writing the history books; who knows if it's true. But it was more than just "We don't like half-dragons"; it was "You are tampering with arcane forces that threaten all life on Eberron." (And as Ellorin points out, the common doctrine of the UC that negative undeath itself is a threat to life.)
With that said, ERANDIS didn't ask for any of this. Beyond this, she has to deal with the fact both that she is the reason her line was exterminated... and beyond that, that she never succeeding in attaining her full potential.
So yes, I certainly feel that her story is a tragic one and her desire for vengeance is understandable - that she merely wishes to fulfill her destiny and punish those who destroyed her kin. However, now it's a question of whether the end justifies the means and who she's willing to deceive, oppress, and destroy in the pursuit of that vengeance.
So I feel that she's a complex villain... but she is a villain, none the less. But as I've said elsewhere, I've got a BoV paladin in my game who's got a personal relationship with her and considers her to be a divine mentor. THe PLAYER knows that she's deceiving him and that this will one day become clear... but for the moment, the CHARACTER considers her a noble and tragic figure.
Of course, if you want to set the Chamber up as villains in your campaign, she might be just the ally you need!
I realize I was simplifying the cause behind the massacre of House Vol, I was trying to argue from Lady Vol's perspective, which would be a spiteful one. Her house and her father was trying to create peace but was stopped just because Lady Vol was born. In her view a half-dragon elf is not an abomination, even when born with a dragonmark. So she is naturally very angry and want revenge as I imagine anyone would feel in a similar situation - confused and feeling bereft of oppotunity.
I'm not sure she wants to be a godess like you wrote Ellorin, I think she is just out for good old fashioned revenge, and the rebirth of her house. She will decieve those she has to get her goals accomplished as she is a firm believer in the end justifying the means. And also in part because she is intelligent, she knows she has to hide, she knows she needs allies, and she knows her goals are not really attractive to anyone outside her bloodline. Few would benefit from a war with dragons or the elves. So she manipulates and work her way through more subtle means and creates organizations which secretly works for her.
But I don't see her as a powerhungering arch lich who just harness power to be powerful. She has goals and she is working hard towards achieving those, they are both personal and beyond. The personal part is the revenge, the more non-personal (yet still something she desires) is the rebirth of the Mark of Death. How she will accomplish that and if she even can do it, I'm not certain of yet. I don't see her as the I-want-to-be-all-powerful-godlike-villain.
She really is one of my favorite characters in Eberron, and one I find really interesting.
I really appreciate your input Hellcow, I know you must be a busy man with all sorts of things going around with 4ed and all that
So I feel honoured you would reply to my topic. My goal with this topic was not so much that I want the Chamber or Undying Court as villains, I wanted arguments that I could use when my players start to realize; hey this is going way beyond just going to that place to get that item for that or that guy.
I don't want to set anyone up as villains, I want my players to make up their own minds of who they want to help. And I need good arguments that they can research or collect and then discuss. I like philosophical discussions of what is right and wrong, and I think it would be very interesting to see my players discuss this from their characters points of view.
Once they figure out who they want the villain to be, the campaign should become really interesting. My idea is that when the players themselves decide who they think the villain should be, they will be more enthusiastic about it, and it will be refreshing to decide yourself I think. Very often its predetermined in a game or book who the villain is, I would like it to be their choice. I have a silent hope of them joining Lady Vol and working against the dragons, but I have a feeling they might work against Lady Vol based on previous and future adventures I willl put them on. Also what they interpretate from different Dragon Prophecies I will give them during the campaign should have their influence as well.
I actually played a BoV cleric once, it was very fun and interesting, never got to meet Lady Vol though, which might have been a good thing
Once again, thanks for your arguments, it is very helpful! I had trouble trying to argue from the elves and dragons point of view.
I appreciate your help and hope you will come with more comments and arguments
The one thing that goes through my mind when i think of lady Vol is her and Jaela sitting at a small table playing tee party and talking about religion in a civil way and all around them Vol's Undead dragons battles Jaela's paladin.
...I think she is just out for good old fashioned revenge, and the rebirth of her house.
Personally I see her as someone who has an extremely valid reason for revenge... but who has been twisted by that hunger for vengeance and, frankly, by survivor's guilt. Again, she is essentially the reason her line was destroyed... and worse yet, she failed to achieve her birthright. She's had thousands of years for grief, anger, and guilt to eat away at her. Now she wants revenge - but now she is prepared to do anything to acheive that revenge. Her line was destroyed - why should she care about the suffering of others? So again, I use her as a tragic and complex villain, someone who's hunger for vengeance is perfectly understandable... but a villain nonetheless, someone who WILL lie to her allies and throw them away when they have served their purpose. Someone so consumed by that thirst for revenge (and the desire to attain her birthright, proving that she didn't fail her forebears) that it is essentially what keeps her alive.
Personally, I don't see her wanting to bring the line back; to her, the line was the members of her family, and they have been dead for thousands of years. I see her as wanting to achieve her destiny. The dragons said that a drop of her blood could destroy all life, and that this was the reason her line must be destroyed. Fine. If that's their excuse for the massacre... she'll prove the Prophecy correct. This serves MY needs in that I use Erandis and the Emerald Claw as the pulpiest of the villains - the ones most likely to set up an eldritch machine to turn everyone in Sharn into zombies or to build a weapon powered by the tormented souls of the Mournland... to DO spectacular and visible schemes, as opposed to the extreme subtlety of the Lords of Dust or the Dreaming Dark. Her line suffered unjustly; now others will pay the price. Again, you can understand her anger and her sorrow - but she's still going to turn everyone in Sharn into zombies and seek to use their souls to restore her mark.
But as with all things Eberron, there are no wrong answers. I think she's a fascinating character with a lot of potential for different styles of play.
An observer of my game actually got so fascinated by Erandis that he created an NPC for me who is a(nother) paladin of Vol. Well he is actually a pal/sor with green-dragon heritage, and he knows the identity of Erandis and her plans, yet he's willing to sacrifice his life for her.
What we don't know about the Mark of Death is critical. If it is, as evidence suggests (Erandis being a lich being the sole piece of evidence) a means to create/control NEGATIVE undead creatures, one would imagine that the Undying Court might have problems with it. Remember, the Court existed long before the Mark of Death ever manifested. To them, it could be seen as a new and destabilizing force which threatened their entire world view of using positive energy to create undead heroes.
the House of Vol might have introduced real necromancy into an elven society that holds such arts as the worst of atrocities. this would immediately have brought on the animosity of the Court.
So what stayed their hand? Perhaps the House of Vol was so powerful that even the Court feared moving against it. Perhaps the exigencies of the wars with Argonessen kept the Court from diverting resources to destroy its own people. Who knows?
But the House of Vol, despite its enormous power, went down quickly, and it was the Court that allowed the Dragons to enter their sacred islands. mayhap the Court was always planning to eradicate the Mark of Death, and it saw an opening when Erandis was revealed to the world.
It could be that the massacre was already in motion--or the factors leading to it were in motion--long before Erandis was conceived.
That much is actually established in canon, actually. Key articles are here and here. A sample section:
The rivalry between the Priests of the Transition and the followers of Vol had been building for thousands of years, and the appearance of the Mark of Death three thousand years ago simply made matters worse. The situation finally came to a head when the Cairdal Blades uncovered an alliance between Vol and a cabal of dragons. The extent and purpose of this alliance was never revealed to the public, but the Undying Court launched a full scale assault on the line of Vol. The Sibling Kings declared that the Blood of Vol was to be completely destroyed, since even a drop could destroy all living things. It was the first war between elves -- and the first time that dragons and elves sided against a common foe, since the forces of Argonnessen joined the Undying Court to destroy Vol and its allies.
The Undying Court existed long before the Mark of Death, but so did the line of Vol; many of its essential philosophies and techniques are drawn from the fallen Qabalrin, and they were among the founders of Aerenal. This is a key factor in why they Court didn't move against them earlier. Aerenal was built by the alliance that had opposed the giants, and all three paths - Vol, Transition, and Tairnadal - were all based on the central idea of preserving the heroes of the race and ensuring that they would never lose so many great souls again. The Priests of Transition turning on the line of Vol was a long time coming, but it was a major milestone and they NEEDED something like the dragon alliance to convince the other lines to support the action. Even then, while only the line of Vol was completely exterminated, there were other lines that fought at their side. Many of the elves of the Lhazaar Principalities and Karrnath are descended from these lines, as they were exiled following the eradication of Vol.
So yes, history is written by the victors... and even at the time, things may have been misrepresented to sway lines to the side of Transition. Or the story may be just as it seems. Or it could be both. The necromancers of Vol may have had no intention of bringing anything harmful into the world... but the UC and Eyes of Chronepsis could be correct in their prediction that Erandis is a threat to the entire world. She may not MEAN to do it... but the threat she poses may not be something she can control. Remember that she never did attain her full potential; it may be that when she does, the power will be something none of her line expected. So even if she's NOT evil and out to destroy the world, it could be that her quest for vengeance will end up going horribly wrong.
I like your way of seeing Lady Vol Hellcow, but I don't see her as wanting to destroy the entire world, unless that is what it takes to destroy the dragons. She is a tragic character, and even if she was the catalyst to start the massacre, I don't think she feels guilty for surviving. I think she is extremely angry and confused why, in her eyes, a noble union of elves and dragons was seen with such distrust and hate. In her eyes the dragons and elves are acting like jealous, scared little children who destroys that which they don't understand. So yes, she is deffinately twisted through and through with vengance, she uses any and all she can to reach her goals.
I think she uses the Emerald Claw to test grand magic or artifacts on various people. They are her labworkers and Khorvaire her labrats. When Erandis finally takes her revenge, she wants it to be perfect and destroying the entire elven/dragon society.
Again, I really like the history of this massacre, how to justify it and can it ever be justified? It is a very Machiavelli like act to destroy an entire family line just to make sure they don't rise up to challenge the rulership. Whether history is written correctly or not, a massacre is still a massacre. If Erandis was the only threat to the world, she could be sacrificed along with the ruling body of House Vol, but exterminating all of them (men, women, children, elders) is maybe over the top. That leads me to believe, prophecy or not, it was mostly a political choice to destroy House Vol - as you quoted Hellcow, it had been building over a very long period of time, Erandis was merely the reason needed to initiate the attack.
Lady Vol is without doubt evil, she cares not who to hurts to get her revenge, but she is only so evil because the circumstances made her so. She is evil because evil was done to her.
To wraithstrike;
I don't think Lady Vol could be resurrected without using some DM fiat/plot device. True resurrection specifically says you can't resurrect undead creatures. But maybe in Eberron it could be done after destroying her phylactery and then travelling to Dolurrh, find her soul, and bring it back. But even then I don't think there are any rules that allow for undead creatures to be resurrected.
It would be interesting though
It could be all that's left for Vol to do to reach her full potential is to leave her earthly vessel behind. Much like I imagine the Couatl who make up the Silver Flame were forced to do.
So it could be if ever someone kills Vol, they will make her a god (of similar power to the Silver Flame and Undying Court), and so she becomes the most powerful force in Eberron (because the Silver Flame has to exert energies to keep the Raskshasa Lords imprisoned. And because she isn't limited to one geographical region like I believe the Undying Court is).
That'd certainly give the players an "Oh crap" moment ;) She would then have to be imprisoned before she does too much damage.
Slightly Off-Topic: Is there any way for Vol to be returned to life without DM fiat/plot devices. This thread reminds me of an old idea I had.
if there was, i think she would have done it long ago.... maybe.
it could be that the mark keeps her dead.... or are there restrictions on liches being resurrected?
It could be Vol has already achieved god-hood. In part due to her nature of being a half-dragon who manifested the Mark of Death. And also in part because of what she has done to herself in the following years.
It could be all that's left for Vol to do to reach her full potential is to leave her earthly vessel behind. Much like I imagine the Couatl who make up the Silver Flame were forced to do.
So it could be if ever someone kills Vol, they will make her a god (of similar power to the Silver Flame and Undying Court), and so she becomes the most powerful force in Eberron (because the Silver Flame has to exert energies to keep the Raskshasa Lords imprisoned. And because she isn't limited to one geographical region like I believe the Undying Court is).
That'd certainly give the players an "Oh crap" moment ;) She would then have to be imprisoned before she does too much damage.
I am going to have to steal that. Destroying a god you accidentally helped ascend is an awesome finale to any campaign.
if there was, i think she would have done it long ago.... maybe.
it could be that the mark keeps her dead.... or are there restrictions on liches being resurrected?
Without looking at my book I think the undeath to death spell combined with a true res spell, or just true res would work, but it(true res) has a time limit of 10 years per caster level for the person to have been dead. I dont think a 260 level cleric is realistic. I was just wandering if RAW, not RAI would have allowed a work around.
Again, I really like the history of this massacre, how to justify it and can it ever be justified? It is a very Machiavelli like act to destroy an entire family line just to make sure they don't rise up to challenge the rulership. Whether history is written correctly or not, a massacre is still a massacre. If Erandis was the only threat to the world, she could be sacrificed along with the ruling body of House Vol, but exterminating all of them (men, women, children, elders) is maybe over the top.
Though in defense of the Court, Erandis wasn't the only threat to the world; she was the proof that the line could produce such a threat. "The Sibling Kings declared that the Blood of Vol was to be completely destroyed, since even a drop could destroy all living things." So she can feel guilt for being the trigger, but it's not as though her parents could have simply turned her over and ended the whole affair.
Does that justify the massacre? Well, that depends if it's true, doesn't it? What if Erandis COULD destroy all life on Eberron... again, potentially without even knowing or intending to? Bear in mind that this is how the dragons work, as the giants can attest to. They don't do half measures. When the giants posed a threat, Argonnessen ended all civilization on Xen'drik. If the line of Vol truly posed a threat, it's quite likely that the UC did some clever negotiating to keep the dragons from utterly destroying Aerenal itself. As noted in the quote, it was the first time elves and dragons had fought a common foe, and don't imagine that to have been an easy or casual thing. So I'm sure there were SOME among the UC who didn't approve of the massacre... but who chose to go along with it for the greater good of Aerenal (along with those who were quite pleased to have a chance to eliminate an ancient political rival).
This is a key point with the dragons of Eberron. Could they deal with some of the threats the PCs might face? Certainly. But you don't want them to, because they will act with brutal finality and no concern for collateral damage. They dealt with the giants by reducing ALL civilization on Xen'drik to the stone age, and if they are responsible for the Durashka Tul, by ensuring no civilization could rise to the level of the giants. If something on Khorvaire requires the attention of the dragons, it could be devastating for human civilization... so it's up to the PCs to keep any threat from progressing to the point where the dragons take an interest.
She is a tragic character, and even if she was the catalyst to start the massacre, I don't think she feels guilty for surviving.
I don't think she feels guilty for SURVIVING; I think she feels pain for being the ONLY survivor, for being the lynchpin that set it in motion, and most of all, for failing to acheive her true potential. For me, this is the driving force behind her wanting to restore her mark, whatever the cost and whatever the consequences. Her line died because of her (sort of), and she has failed them. Taking vengeance against the dragons is one thing, but she will also see her parents' dream realized. In 4E terms, she knows that she has an epic destiny, and she will achieve it at any cost. As for destroying the world, I see this as being a mirror of the dragons themselves. She wants vengeance against Argonnessen, and when you consider the power of the dragons, that's an astonishingly huge challenge. In my opinion, she simply doesn't care about the collateral damage. She may not WANT to destroy the world. But if she has to destroy Khorvaire to destroy Argonnessen, she'd do it without a second thought.
I think she is extremely angry and confused why, in her eyes, a noble union of elves and dragons was seen with such distrust and hate.
I see anger... I don't see confusion. As noted before, there was a long political rivalry between the lines; at the very least, it was a politically expedient action. Beyond that, the dragons and elves had a long history of conflict - so while this could have been a chance to break that pattern, it's hardly surprising that many elves would view collaboration with this enemy with distrust and hate. I don't think that she believes that her parents intended to destroy all life; she considers that to be propaganda used to sway the undecided against her line and to provide an excuse for the massacre. But while it may never have been her parents' GOAL, it's still possible she has that power within her... and she may be willing to MAKE the prophecy come true, just to make her enemies reap the bitter harvest they have sown.
I am going to have to steal that. Destroying a god you accidentally helped ascend is an awesome finale to any campaign.
Thanks :D
An interesting thought I had a while back was about Vol's motive and origins. Yes she's one of the oldest (un)living creatures on Khorvaire. I think around 3,400 years if my calculations are correct.
But she's also an 11 year old girl who hasn't even gone through puberty yet. In many ways she's still a child, with a child's nascient viewpoints of the world. She doesn't think like you or I, doesn't assign romance or more adult views to her objectives. Yes she's extremely smart, wise and charismatic. But that's like any child you notice as "something special". You all know the ones I'm talking about, the future leaders that we grow up with. I see Vol as something akin to this, a child with amazing potential that never really got their, emotionally speaking.
Still she's got three thousand years of life experience to lean upon. But like any realistic personality she will fall back upon old habits and modes of thought. The modes and habits of a willful, emotional and child-like 11-year-old.
I'll sneak in with my 2 cents worth ;) .
An interesting thought I had a while back was about Vol's motive and origins. Yes she's one of the oldest (un)living creatures on Khorvaire. I think around 3,400 years if my calculations are correct.
But she's also an 11 year old girl who hasn't even gone through puberty yet. In many ways she's still a child, with a child's nascient viewpoints of the world. She doesn't think like you or I, doesn't assign romance or more adult views to her objectives. Yes she's extremely smart, wise and charismatic. But that's like any child you notice as "something special". You all know the ones I'm talking about, the future leaders that we grow up with. I see Vol as something akin to this, a child with amazing potential that never really got their, emotionally speaking.
Still she's got three thousand years of life experience to lean upon. But like any realistic personality she will fall back upon old habits and modes of thought. The modes and habits of a willful, emotional and child-like 11-year-old.
Was there ever an official age on when she became a Lich? It would seem ____ than the Leader of Vol and the Silver Flame are both 11 year old kids. Even though one 11 year old is really over 2000 yrs old.
But she's also an 11 year old girl who hasn't even gone through puberty yet. In many ways she's still a child, with a child's nascient viewpoints of the world.
This interpretation of Erandis reminds me of Claudia (In the movie she was played by Kirsten Dunst) the vampire-child from "Interview with the Vampire"...
So, my idea is, sure Erandis may have the psychological mindframe of an 11 year old human, but isn't it possible that she is actually a lot older, because of her non-human blood? Granted, she may have actually 'died' at the age of 11, because the House of Vol either revealed her existence or the Undying Court or the dragons found out about her, but if that is so, then wouldn't she be even less mature than a human of the same age, because of the slower maturity rate? If she was really around 11, compared to the 110 year old adulthood age, she would be young and immature to the point of being unable to form complex evil plots.
Also, I'm not sure I like the whole idea of her becoming a lich, and that stops her emotional growth. She may have been turned into a lich that young, but after almost 4000 years, I personally think that some amount of maturity had to have been gained. Just my two cents, though.
A random, semi-off topic thought that I had: It's been said that Erandis is around 11. Is that in so called 'human' years? Or in elven years? Because in the PHB, it said that an elf reaches adulthood around 110 or so; much later than a human. Add in the half-dragon blood, and it could get even more distorted.
So, my idea is, sure Erandis may have the psychological mindframe of an 11 year old human, but isn't it possible that she is actually a lot older, because of her non-human blood? Granted, she may have actually 'died' at the age of 11, because the House of Vol either revealed her existence or the Undying Court or the dragons found out about her, but if that is so, then wouldn't she be even less mature than a human of the same age, because of the slower maturity rate? If she was really around 11, compared to the 110 year old adulthood age, she would be young and immature to the point of being unable to form complex evil plots.
Also, I'm not sure I like the whole idea of her becoming a lich, and that stops her emotional growth. She may have been turned into a lich that young, but after almost 4000 years, I personally think that some amount of maturity had to have been gained. Just my two cents, though.
If she were physically 11 she would be a toddler.
Was there ever an official age on when she became a Lich?
No. The 4E ECG says "Born of elf and dragon, her Mark of Death was unlike any other... but she was killed long before she could master its power." The 3E mini of her and the picture in Faiths of Eberron depict her as an adult. I've said that *I* like the idea of her as being young, highlighting the point that she had not yet mastered the potential of her mark.. that this wasn't her FAULT, she simply hadn't had the time to unlock all of its powers. Even there, however, I don't have a SPECIFIC age in mind, just at the edge of adolescence.
A random, semi-off topic thought that I had: It's been said that Erandis is around 11. Is that in so called 'human' years? Or in elven years? Because in the PHB, it said that an elf reaches adulthood around 110 or so; much later than a human.
This is a topic that's debated in many places throughout editions. It's all a question of what defines "adult". In 3E Races of the Wild and in 4E core, it's stated that while elves live longer than humans, they mature mentally and physically at approximately the same rate; the 110-year figure given in the PHB simply refers to the age at which they are considered to be adult members of their society and are likely to adventure (so no, elves aren't still in diapers when they are 30). For example, you could have a 30-year-old Tairnadal elf, and this is one good explanation for that character being 1st level. But most Tairnadal undergo decades of rigorous martial training before they are allowed to become full-fledged members of a warband and leave Aerenal. The Aereni are likewise obsessed with tradition, and you might spend decades studying family history, tending to the deathless ancestors, or what have you. As a result, in my3E campaign, the Aereni and Valenar tended to start in that century range, because of these traditions... whereas elves born and raised alongside humans tended to start in their thirties, because they haven't been raised within an elf culture. Thus, when I say I see Erandis on the edge of adolescence, I see her as being somewhere in the range of 20-30 human years.
So I put her at early adolescence physically, and certainly, her life (and death) was shaped by major events that occurred at that time and were seen through the lens of her age. However, personally I do say that she's matured over the last two thousand years, and that she's a charismatic individual and clever manipulator. But the mentally-a-child version is an interesting idea, and I can see how you could have fun with it.
A random, semi-off topic thought that I had: It's been said that Erandis is around 11. Is that in so called 'human' years? Or in elven years? Because in the PHB, it said that an elf reaches adulthood around 110 or so; much later than a human. Add in the half-dragon blood, and it could get even more distorted.
So, my idea is, sure Erandis may have the psychological mindframe of an 11 year old human, but isn't it possible that she is actually a lot older, because of her non-human blood? Granted, she may have actually 'died' at the age of 11, because the House of Vol either revealed her existence or the Undying Court or the dragons found out about her, but if that is so, then wouldn't she be even less mature than a human of the same age, because of the slower maturity rate? If she was really around 11, compared to the 110 year old adulthood age, she would be young and immature to the point of being unable to form complex evil plots.
Also, I'm not sure I like the whole idea of her becoming a lich, and that stops her emotional growth. She may have been turned into a lich that young, but after almost 4000 years, I personally think that some amount of maturity had to have been gained. Just my two cents, though.
I think, but am not sure that elves mature mentally faster than they mature physically. The elves in novels did not have to be 100 years old to be decent combatants, but then again each author probably had his/her own idea of when the elf came of age(mentally an adult).
So she can feel guilt for being the trigger, but it's not as though her parents could have simply turned her over and ended the whole affair.
It is unknown if they could've done that, it probably wouldn't have ended the war between elves, but could they have avoided the dragons participating? Difficult to say I think, but you are probably right that the dragons would have wiped out the possibility of it ever happening again.
Does that justify the massacre? Well, that depends if it's true, doesn't it?
That is indeed what I think my players will discuss when they get the the different sides of the story. It will be interesting to see if they can stay in character and use their characters personalities to discuss what and who is the bad guys here..
Personally I may sound cruel, but if there is a threat of a potential world disaster, better to get rid the chance than take the chance of letting it happen even if a few innocents get caught in the conflict...
This is a key point with the dragons of Eberron. Could they deal with some of the threats the PCs might face? Certainly. But you don't want them to, because they will act with brutal finality and no concern for collateral damage. [snip]. so it's up to the PCs to keep any threat from progressing to the point where the dragons take an interest.
That is a very interesting point. I never gave it a thought that the dragons always behave that way, but they really do that, and its really frightening. This may be the turning point to not aid Erandis in her quest. The dragons could very well take it way out of hand and Erandis cares not if the rest of the world dies as long as she makes sure the elves and dragons perish.
Very interesting!
I think she feels pain for being the ONLY survivor, for being the lynchpin that set it in motion, and most of all, for failing to acheive her true potential.
That is where I think our visions of Erandis is different. I don't she feels pain for being the only survivor or guilt for setting the massacre in motion, but I do think she feels angry for never having the chance to achieve her true potential.
I also think she is more angry at the dragons and elves for being so afraid of something so harmless as a child of both races with a dragon mark, and from that feeling I see confusion. I don't think she can see why she needed to be destroyed or the rest of her family line. She has read the history books, heard the arguments of the other side, but I don't think she has understood how she could be such a threat. Maybe this lack of insight comes from never having achieved anything grand while she lived and had the power of dragons, elves and the dragonmark running through her veins.
As you wrote yourself;
I don't think that she believes that her parents intended to destroy all life; she considers that to be propaganda used to sway the undecided against her line and to provide an excuse for the massacre.
But she never got that kind of power, and perhaps she has reasoned her way to that she would never have gotten it, or maybe that the prophecy was misinterpreted purposely to initiate the massacre.
But while it may never have been her parents' GOAL, it's still possible she has that power within her... and she may be willing to MAKE the prophecy come true, just to make her enemies reap the bitter harvest they have sown.
I think that is a good point, she will try to make the prophecy come true, at least for some part of the world's population. I doubt she has an interest in exterminating the entire world, but just enough of it to ruin the societies of the dragons and elves.
For the debate over how old she is, I think Hellcow answered it very well. I've always seen her as a very young adult, or late teen if you will, in physical appearances, she has had over 3000 years to mature and I think she is mature in mentality, though twisted through and through from the conflict and her wish for revenge. However she has very likely never experienced love or true friendship, nor a host of other things, so she is likely lacking some insight in certain aspects (immature in some things )
I also think she is more angry at the dragons and elves for being so afraid of something so harmless as a child of both races with a dragon mark, and from that feeling I see confusion.
This is certainly where our visions different. In my opinion, the line of Vol and their draconic allies knew that what they were doing was anything but harmless. The elves were collaborating with a force that had in the past attacked Aerenal. And they were doing so with the intention of dramatically increasing the power of the dragonmark - of unlocking the true potential of a dragonmark, power far beyond what a Siberys mark could achieve. On the part of the dragons, it was an attempt to manipulate the path of the Prophecy, shifting closer to a world in which the marks might be held by dragons. Her parents may have believed that this power could be harnessed and used for positive ends, and certainly believed that it was no threat to "all life on Eberron". But they knew they were playing with fire, and kept the project hidden from their fellow elves and dragons. Erandis wasn't a love child. She wasn't an accidental birth due to an elf and a dragon randomly falling in love. She was the end result of a controlled breeding program designed to produce a child with a superior dragonmark, a project carried out by a noble house long at odds with the ruling power of Aerenal and in collaboration with the greatest enemy of the land.
Beyond this, bear in mind that the UC has always held that negative necromancy is a dangerous force that threatens the balance of life energy on Eberron. This is the underlying argument that led to the long and ever-growing tension between the line of Vol and the Sibling Kings. It wasn't enough to call for their extermination, but it was a serious, deeply held conviction on the part of the Priests of Transition. Even if Erandis' mark would only let her animate the dead as opposed to slaying the living, it is certainly a powerful tool for manipulating and harnessing negative energy on a level not seen before. So the situation would be akin to Cuba working with the USSR to produce a new, incredibly dangerous type of nuclear bomb at the height of the Cold War. The people MAKING the bomb might believe that it is a tool for peace. They might believe that THEY would never abuse its power. But at the same time, they'd have to be extremely naive to think that the US wouldn't be afraid of that power and of the motives of their Soviet allies. The UC hates negative necromancy. It fears dragons. As Vol, you're working with dragons to create an incredible new tool for negative necromancy. You don't need a 20 Intelligence to know this won't end well if you're caught.
So I can see Erandis firmly believing that her family was innocent: that negative necromancy is no threat to life on Eberron, that she could have fully controlled the power of the mark and potentially used it for positive ends, that the alliance with the Emerald Claw could have brought an end to the elf-dragon wars. She may even believe that it could have been a turning point in helping the younger races harness the power of the Prophecy, something with ramifications far beyond the powers of her mark. But I see her as both a genius and a master manipulator, someone who is very attuned to mortal motivations (the strings she herself pulls when manipulating her puppets). I feel that she understands what her parents sought to accomplish, the power that she might possess. Given that, I feel that she UNDERSTANDS the motives of the UC; she simply disagrees with them and intends to make them pay for their actions.
I doubt she has an interest in exterminating the entire world, but just enough of it to ruin the societies of the dragons and elves.
In my vision, she doesn't have an interest in exterminating the entire world. But she places vengeance against Aerenal and Argonessen above all else. If she has to destroy Breland to get her revenge, she will. If she has to abuse the trust of the faithful followers of the Blood of Vol, she will. Essentially, in fighting the dragons, she has become like them; her goals come before any concern for collateral damage among those she considers to be her inferiors.
But again, this is necessary for the role I use her for in my campaign. I use the Emerald Claw as the pulp villains - the people who WILL unleash a zombie plague on Sharn simply because Erandis is trying to perfect it before she uses it on Aerenal. I don't WANT an Erandis who feels remorse, because I want her to be ready and willing to take such terrible actions. I want her to be a serpent, as Kaius found to his sorrow... someone who could be an ally, but who will always have her own agenda, always be using you for her own ends. I want her motives to make sense. I want people to be able to see how her vengeance could come to be so all-consuming, and to see that she and her family were wronged - that this could have been avoided. I want her to be brilliant and charismatic. I want her to see herself as a champion and a martyr. But I want that obsession to have gone to far, for thousands of years hungering for vengeance to have eaten away at her humanity, to have turned someone who once could have been a force for positive change into a force of darkness... someone who sees people as tools, someone who manipulates those who trust her, someone prepare to sacrifice innocents on a whim. We can sympathize with her, but at the end of the day, we should fear her.
But again, that's just MY Erandis. ;) Nothing wrong with using Confused Erandis or Childlike Erandis in your campaigns!
In the end I've planned on using her much the same as you will (I think)
Using Khorvaire as her labrats (as I think I wrote earlier on) and trying to perfect her revenge against the elves and the dragons. My goal with this thread was merely to get arguments I could use to try and persuade my players to join either side, I've gotten so much more than that and I'm really thankful for it
Thank you!In my vision, she doesn't have an interest in exterminating the entire world. But she places vengeance against Aerenal and Argonessen above all else. If she has to destroy Breland to get her revenge, she will. If she has to abuse the trust of the faithful followers of the Blood of Vol, she will. Essentially, in fighting the dragons, she has become like them; her goals come before any concern for collateral damage among those she considers to be her inferiors.
But again, this is necessary for the role I use her for in my campaign. I use the Emerald Claw as the pulp villains - the people who WILL unleash a zombie plague on Sharn simply because Erandis is trying to perfect it before she uses it on Aerenal. I don't WANT an Erandis who feels remorse, because I want her to be ready and willing to take such terrible actions. I want her to be a serpent, as Kaius found to his sorrow... someone who could be an ally, but who will always have her own agenda, always be using you for her own ends. I want her motives to make sense. I want people to be able to see how her vengeance could come to be so all-consuming, and to see that she and her family were wronged - that this could have been avoided. I want her to be brilliant and charismatic. I want her to see herself as a champion and a martyr. But I want that obsession to have gone to far, for thousands of years hungering for vengeance to have eaten away at her humanity, to have turned someone who once could have been a force for positive change into a force of darkness... someone who sees people as tools, someone who manipulates those who trust her, someone prepare to sacrifice innocents on a whim. We can sympathize with her, but at the end of the day, we should fear her.
But again, that's just MY Erandis. ;) Nothing wrong with using Confused Erandis or Childlike Erandis in your campaigns!
I'm going to hide under the covers now and pray I never have Hellcow as a GM. Erandis sounds downright scary after reading that, makes Zenobaal look like a cute little duckling in comparison :surrender .
But their cure---attempting to entirely destroy civilization on Riedra---would be worse than the disease. But perhaps there are a few dragons who are more sympathetic to the short-lived races, working from within to achieve a less-drastic resolution; those would be the dragons aligned with the PCs.
I think this kind of framework, with the dragons as an opposing force to the campaign's main antagonists, is a powerful one. So thank you for sharing it!
This thread is awesome! I copied down a bunch of notes about the dragons for use in my nascent campaign. Not to get off-topic, but my main behind-the-scenes villains at this point are quori. Now I have the perfect opposing force for the Dreaming Dark, in the form of the Chamber. There's an especially delicate interplay here since the Prophecy does not see into Riedra.
But their cure---attempting to entirely destroy civilization on Riedra---would be worse than the disease. But perhaps there are a few dragons who are more sympathetic to the short-lived races, working from within to achieve a less-drastic resolution; those would be the dragons aligned with the PCs.
I think this kind of framework, with the dragons as an opposing force to the campaign's main antagonists, is a powerful one. So thank you for sharing it!
I wander if the chamber does not see into Reidra because of the amount of psychic energy there. I have thought about using that angle to say in a future adventure the quori will overtake Eberron or mindflayers(as told in Lords of Madness) will end up taking over entire planets.
On that note, if you're looking to mix in Lords of Madness, Keith Baker wrote an article a few years back about adapting that book to Eberron. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a
It is close to the version I was thinking of using. The mindflayers overthrow the daelky in the material plane, are almost defeated in the future travel back through time, and I can't remember how the Gith came about. They landed at about the same time as the Daeklyr invasion took place.