Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 skrapsan Nov 16, 2008 12:34:55	OK so the PHB4th lists the following languages: Common, Deep speach, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Primordinal, Supernal and Abyssal. Do we know of any other languages that should be included in the world of Eberron?
#2 Montonius1 Nov 16, 2008 13:17:23	Orcish, which is a derivation of Giant, and Riedran, which is derived from Old Common, the ancient Sarlonan tongue that is the ancestor of both Riedran and the Common tongue of Khorvaire. I explored this issue in some depth in the Grand History of Eberron, page 111-112, which looks at the full range of 4E languages and their conversion into Eberron lore. I suggest you check it out if you haven't already. http://uploadingit.com/browse/Montonius/177073
#3 mystrich Nov 16, 2008 15:55:46	Quor will probably be added. I'm a bit doubting of Orcish. It seems to see minimal usage really, and 4e tried to simplify it so there weren't as many languages (all fey speak Elvish, for example). Orcs will probably speak Giant or Goblin. Not Eberron specific, but given their importance in Eberron, Druidic would probably be added to the list as well.
#4 superdeadsmurf Nov 16, 2008 20:30:25	Quor will probably be added. I'm a bit doubting of Orcish. It seems to see minimal usage really, and 4e tried to simplify it so there weren't as many languages (all fey speak Elvish, for example). Orcs will probably speak Giant or Goblin. Not Eberron specific, but given their importance in Eberron, Druidic would probably be added to the list as well. Druidic maybe be added in PHB2 Even. It may not need to be classified as a full language, possibly just a class feature or something.
#5 PJammaGod Nov 16, 2008 22:37:49	The outsider based languages of Eberron from 3.5e alone were Syranian, Kythric, Abyssal, Celestial, Daan, Daelkyr, Irial, Infernal, Quori and Risian (oh and the usual elemental quartet of Auran, Aquan, Ignan and Terran). Of course with 4e's emphasis on having a more core group of languages it's up to the individual GM to cut down as they see fit. Personally I've kept Orcish due to the Shadow Marches and the strong ties Orcs have with Khorvaires past. Halfling was folded into Common, but there is still much of the original Talentan sprinkled through the halfling dialect of Common. Quori and Riedran have certainly remained. The Dreaming Dark and the mind-controlled continent very much suit having their own languages. Syrian, Kythric, Abyssal, Celestial, Daan, Irial, Infernal and the Elemental quartet have been paired down substantially. Now they all just speak Pimordial (anything from Kythri, Fernia and Risia), Supernal (Irian, Mabar, Syrania, Shavarath, Xoriat) and Abyssal (Shavarath, Sahuagin). Drow speak primarily Deep Speech with their own dialect spun through it. As more races are released we'll have to wait and see how their languages are handled. Oh and gnomes speak their own brand of Common with gnomish dialect (plenty of emphasis of double entedre, hidden meanings and minutae).
#6 paideia Nov 17, 2008 17:39:34	In my campain I have added Gnomish, Orcish and Halfling. Since I'm staying away from psionics and Kalashtar (haven't seen any decent implementations yet) I haven't had a use for Quor or Riedran yet, but if I decide to include such NPCs I will use them. My reasoning is that all these languages represent distinctive peoples and regions in the world and that it would make sense for them to have retained separate languages as well as separate cultures and social traditions.
#7 skrapsan Nov 18, 2008 1:06:48	In my campain I have added Gnomish, Orcish and Halfling. Since I'm staying away from psionics and Kalashtar (haven't seen any decent implementations yet) I haven't had a use for Quor or Riedran yet, but if I decide to include such NPCs I will use them. First of check this out if you want Kalashtar stats. My reasoning is that all these languages represent distinctive peoples and regions in the world and that it would make sense for them to have retained separate languages as well as separate cultures and social traditions. Now I agree with you, Sarlona should have a different language than the rest of Khorvaire, but I still feel that is should be recognizably to a person speaking common. Mostly because it shares the same roots. I'm not saying totally understand,but find phrases etc that sounds familiar. Now; The ECS 3.5 mentions the following languages: (pg 46/47) Abysal, Argon, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Daan , Daelkyr (aberrations, Xoriat, etc), Draconic, Druidic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Ignan, infernal, Irial, Kythric, Mabran, Orcs, Quori, Riedran, Risian, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon. Compared with the previous list I would say that: Primordinal, Supernal and Abyssal replaces all the plane, elemental and alignment specific languages. Deep speach replaces undercommon. Orc leaves the table entierly, they now speak giant. Druidic stays. Riedran, Quori and Argon stays since they are tied to places in the world (Sarlona and Argonessen). I'm tempted to keep Daelkyr as a language just so the aberrations have something to speak among themselves.
#8 goblin_pride Nov 18, 2008 13:02:18	Orcs should have their own seperate language since they developed independant of the giants on Khorvaire. Goblin should have 2-3 ancient dialects dating from the rise, middle and decline of the Dhakaani empire as well as the modern goblin language, just for the sake of making Dhakaani artifacts, relics and texts that much harder to understand.
#9 paideia Nov 18, 2008 16:46:18	Now I agree with you, Sarlona should have a different language than the rest of Khorvaire, but I still feel that is should be recognizably to a person speaking common. Mostly because it shares the same roots. I'm not saying totally understand,but find phrases etc that sounds familiar. Saying it has the same roots is not at all the same as being able to understand phrases etc. There are cases where this is true; Danish, Swedish and Norwegian all have an origin in ancient Norse and it is certainly possible to communicate between these languages. But there are just as many if not more cases, where it is not: The aforementioned languages are also part of the Germanic languages, but speakers of these languages would not necessarily be able to communicate with people speaking German, Dutch, English or Icelandic (all of these are also germanic languages). Ultimately it comes down to matters of time, degree of contact, strength of monocultures, historical mores etc. Now, this does not mean, that it is not the case. My main point is only, that it is not a clear-cut case.
#10 skrapsan Nov 18, 2008 23:29:42	Now, this does not mean, that it is not the case. My main point is only, that it is not a clear-cut case. I never said that it should be understandable, especialy since i included Riadeiran as a language. But it would be more like German and Norwegian (using this example since I'm from Norway). A Norwegian who is not fluent in German will recognice certain words and sentence construction here and there, but he sure as heck wont understand a word that is being said unless he has had a fair amount of exposure to the language. This was my intention, I'm sorry if I didn't explain it well enough the first time.
#11 mystrich Nov 18, 2008 23:50:23	Orcs should have their own seperate language since they developed independant of the giants on Khorvaire. And each plane is it's own universe, but they all speak the same languages. 4e is trying to slim down similar languages. Orcs are giants, therefore, speak Giant, even though they didn't have contact with the giants. My other guess is their language being replaced with Goblin, given both were on the same continent and helped each other fight off Xoriat's invasion with druidic magic.
#12 eehamburg Nov 19, 2008 10:39:07	Can someone explain why the languages have to follow the strict RULES approach? Why can't there be Brelish or Thranish or Dhakaani? Why does it have to be human or goblin, like that? The RULES are guidelines. The Story is what is important. Part of the reason that KB made the world the way that it is.
#13 skrapsan Nov 19, 2008 13:21:07	Can someone explain why the languages have to follow the strict RULES approach? From a personal perspective: Because one of my players is taking multiple[Linguistic] feats. From a Players perspective: Because i want to know who I can talk to using my newly taken languages and to then better select the ones I need and the ones I don't. From a DMs perspective: Because I would like to know what language the NPCs/monsters/villains speak among themselves and if the players can understand them. From a Lore perspective: There is a Common tongue because House Sivis helped spread it, and because it was a key point of keeping the kingdom of Galifar united. And I expect there to be differences in the dialect of the nations, because lets face it, that is how its here. Now all of these are not really answers too your questions, and I quite honestly don't really care if there is only 10 languages or if there is 20+ as long as there is a consistency in them. And that is what I'm advocating (is that even an expression?). And yes I do also agree that the story should be one of the main focuses, but with too many loopholes and plotholes the story will be terrible, as we all know.
#14 eehamburg Nov 19, 2008 16:19:39	I disagree with your comments. You can do all of that and still use national languages instead of racial languages ... look at our own world ... no racial languages here. Flavor it to be Eberron ... not just generic junk. Look at yourself ... do you say that you speak Norwegian and English or do you say that you speak Human? Same rule applies.
#15 skrapsan Nov 19, 2008 23:31:37	Yeah I see the point you are making. And yes it would certainly ad flavor to the setting, but I fell that the five nations aren't really quite there yet. Common is still the Main language. But I can definitively see that they develop their own languages over time, all based on common, or Gallifarian if you like. Think of it as English if you like, The britts brought their language all over the world. But there is tons of difference between many of the different types of English being spoken, so big that many times I wont get it, but they still speak English at least atm. I see the same thing happening with common, the nations have only been split up for a hundred years. Compare that to almost a thousand years of united Galifar with a common language. And I like it, Eberron is one of the few settings I have played (if not the only) that actually explains the origin of common too me. And I love it for it. So to say it short, no I'm not totally opposed to the national languages. But I'm not totally for it either. (and I haven't spoken of racial languages I know).
#16 goblin_pride Nov 20, 2008 8:09:16	Can someone explain why the languages have to follow the strict RULES approach? Why can't there be Brelish or Thranish or Dhakaani? Why does it have to be human or goblin, like that? The RULES are guidelines. The Story is what is important. Part of the reason that KB made the world the way that it is. That kind of thinking is what makes Eberron different. When the rules don't fit the flavor, rewrite the rules. How it tastes is by far more important than strict adherence to the rules of the game.
#17 Gilo Nov 20, 2008 8:21:34	That kind of thinking is what makes Eberron different. When the rules don't fit the flavor, rewrite the rules. How it tastes is by far more important than strict adherence to the rules of the game. The code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules -Pirates of the Caribbean
#18 goblin_pride Nov 20, 2008 8:32:15	The code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules -Pirates of the Caribbean Don't make me say it. Eberron players and DMs are pirates.
#19 Gilo Nov 20, 2008 10:30:21	Don't make me say it. Eberron players and DMs are pirates. Yarr! First of check this Compared with the previous list I would say that: Primordinal, Supernal and Abyssal replaces all the plane, elemental and alignment specific languages. Deep speach replaces undercommon. Orc leaves the table entierly, they now speak giant. Druidic stays. Riedran, Quori and Argon stays since they are tied to places in the world (Sarlona and Argonessen). I'm tempted to keep Daelkyr as a language just so the aberrations have something to speak among themselves. This is the setup I'll go with too, with the following exceptions: I was thinking that given to the Druids origin in Eberron - Druidic could have been be explained as a crypto over Draconic or Orcish, but after another pass over the "Druids of Khorvaire" dragonshard article - I'm more inclined to set it as Primordial. I'm unsure if Orcish should become Giant or Goblin. Riedran, Argon as Common. Quri as Supernal. Daelkyr as Deep Speech
#20 balard Nov 20, 2008 13:34:35	I my campaign i have Sylvan(Thelanis/Eladrin) and Orc. Goblin, Draconic and Abyssal are the other languages spoken by the party. My campaign is base in western Khorveire. I don't really see a problem with many languages. It's easy as a DM control the amount of different languages the players will interact in a adventure. And with the whole "retraining" thing you can drop older languages for new ones as the game progress.
#21 skrapsan Nov 20, 2008 13:57:06	Well the thing here is that my player isn't going to stop before he knows all the languages it is logical for him to know. So I need to tell him when he has reached his limit so to speak.
#22 Gilo Nov 20, 2008 15:09:35	Well the thing here is that my player isn't going to stop before he knows all the languages it is logical for him to know. So I need to tell him when he has reached his limit so to speak. How does the character know it knows all the languages of the multiuniverse?
#23 skrapsan Nov 20, 2008 22:59:07	He don't. But being a wizard I would guess he had a certain idea of the more "common" languages of Khorvaire. Ah but it is mish mash in the end, Ill figure something out eventually :P