(talk about rapid troop deployment!)
Unless I'm really under-estimating the rate at which rail can be put down and the paranoia/suspicion of each nation.
With the War having ended around a year ago - how is it that the Lightning Rail network is so extensive? I would have thought that a direct line to all your major cities would be something that warring countries would be loathe to have.
(talk about rapid troop deployment!)
Unless I'm really under-estimating the rate at which rail can be put down and the paranoia/suspicion of each nation.
Lightning rail was commissioned when the nations were all united, over a century ago.
As for why they didn't tear it down when the war started... well, it's House Orien/Cannith property. Each nation can stop people from entering their borders, but attacking House property is like invading Switzerland.
It's both very illegal, and a very bad idea.
Also, having a lightning rail line between your allies' territory and you would be invaluable.
So I think that while the modern day lightning rail is still pretty extensive, it used to be even more so before the War. The Mourning did lots of damage, but the fighting caused its own fair share.
The dragonmarked houses were technically neutral (though some of the certainly showed favoritism, this was generally done under the table). If one of the nations were to attack the lightening rail they would risk not only alienating houses Orien & Cannith but the other houses as well; all 13 work together to assure they dragonmarked maintain their autonomy. If a nation broke their neutrality with the houses they would have been totally screwed. Not only would they loose a huge amount of their autonomy, but they would give the houses a legitimate reason to directly support their enemies!
However, this neutrality goes both ways. This is pure speculation, but I highly doubt that Orien/Cannith would allow a nation to use the lightening rails to transport large numbers of troops into an enemy nation. Spies, agents, couriers, and probably even officers and nobles no doubt used the rails while on military business, and I'm sure more then one nation used it to sneak elite covert units into enemy territory. However, I doubt the houses would allow the rails to be used for rapid deployment of a large number of troops.
Just like the Red Cross doesn't go around hauling a bunch of the medical supplies for one side of a war, believing that the big red and white symbol on the side is going to make it immune. Just like in a war between UN nations, I don't think you'd see UN peacekeeping vehicles moving opposing forces towards the front, providing fire support, or logistical support.
I doubt house Orien would use its neutrality to perform decidedly non-neutral things.
Just like the Red Cross doesn't go around hauling a bunch of the medical supplies for one side of a war, believing that the big red and white symbol on the side is going to make it immune. Just like in a war between UN nations, I don't think you'd see UN peacekeeping vehicles moving opposing forces towards the front, providing fire support, or logistical support.
I operate them much like the Spacing Guild in the Dune series. Orien will transport anything... for a price. Troops, weapons, supplies, refugees, as long as you can pay the cost, Orien picks no sides. You just better follow thier rules:
* All soldiers are restricted to their respective cars.
* Mess cars are reserved for specific times for soldiers. When multiple unallied forces are present, the feeding times are prenegotiated with the House and other troop cars are locked during this time.
* Troops and / or Diplomatic Envoys and thier Agents are to visibly wear identifying uniforms and posses travel papers. Any found in violation will be booted from train and receive a ban of Orien services no less than 6 months (less so with official diplomats).
* Troops and / or Diplomatic Enoys and thier Agents found violating movement restrictions are booted from the train and receive a ban of Orien services no less than 6 months (less so with official diplomats).
* Tampering with any cars, station business, routes, tracks, or impeding the itenerary is strictly forbidden. Offending nations risk severe fines, the immediately off-loading of that nations troops and supplies across khorvaire, or extended bans. House Orien services must be allowed to pass sieges, blockades, and checkpoints unmolested and no transport is subject to search or siezure by any nation.
* Decalred Military cargo is to be guarded by neutral House Deneith soldiers in the employ of House Orien. This cargo is unaccessible by all passengers until off-loaded and signed for at the destination.
So, yes, I think House Orien would have made every effort to profit with it's transportation services during and after the war.
I highly doubt that Orien/Cannith would allow a nation to use the lightening rails to transport large numbers of troops into an enemy nation.
In my campaign they would. Of course it'd be stupid to transport your troops into an enemy city or even across the enemy border. Once they are off Orien property, they'd be subject the the normal policies of the area they are in (arrest, summary execution (provided you don't damage Orien property), etc.)
No, instead you'd mass move your troops into reserve positions behind the front lines, then march them forward.
And bear in mind--people beyond House Orien/Cannith used the lightning rails. People built homebrew (and very dangerous/unpredictable) lighting rail carts.
To deny the effect of the lightning rail in the war for transporting troops is silly--over the course of 100 years, can you really say that at no time did a group of troopers dress in plainclothes, smuggle longswords in some violin cases, and travel to Metrol?
Just a few thoughts.
Although personally I'd just go by air and drop troops that way. Plenty of ways to mask a airship and its activity and cargo.;)
There are ways to disguise ones self, to mask magical, divine and psionic detection and to mimic the behavior of others. So its entirely plausible that troops/agents were moved via the lightning rail.
Although personally I'd just go by air and drop troops that way. Plenty of ways to mask a airship and its activity and cargo.;)
Very true. On the other hand, Airships suffer from weight limitations, a tradeoff for the speed of flight. Good for moving perishables to the front or a couple squads of forward scouts and thier support, but for moving the masses and thier heavy support, rail and caravan is the way to go. The exceptions are Argonth and the other floating fortresses, designed expressly for the purpose of moving large logistics faster than foot travel. Not exactly as speedy as an airship, but you take your army, calvary, arsenal, support personnel and food with you long distances without tiring the troops from forced marches.
Very true. On the other hand, Airships suffer from weight limitations, a tradeoff for the speed of flight. Good for moving perishables to the front or a couple squads of forward scouts and thier support, but for moving the masses and thier heavy support, rail and caravan is the way to go. The exceptions are Argonth and the other floating fortresses, designed expressly for the purpose of moving large logistics faster than foot travel. Not exactly as speedy as an airship, but you take your army, calvary, arsenal, support personnel and food with you long distances without tiring the troops from forced marches.
I would imagine that in a war, a nation wouldn't just be using a single airship to move troops unless it was some kind of super secret special forces type. I could see a full on fleet of ships being used in this situation.
Although I don't know enough about eberron to know if there are full on fleets of airships and even if there are, who has access to them.
But with the way this setting is, it wouldn't suprise me if national leaders payed off house members to aid them and then "removed" anyone in the house that proved to be a distraction.
So and so won't allow this on his train, Ok, then we kill him, pay this guy off and have him replaced. Now we have access. Then again, as I said. I'm still learning.;)
I would imagine that in a war, a nation wouldn't just be using a single airship to move troops unless it was some kind of super secret special forces type. I could see a full on fleet of ships being used in this situation.
Although I don't know enough about eberron to know if there are full on fleets of airships and even if there are, who has access to them.
But with the way this setting is, it wouldn't suprise me if national leaders payed off house members to aid them and then "removed" anyone in the house that proved to be a distraction.
So and so won't allow this on his train, Ok, then we kill him, pay this guy off and have him replaced. Now we have access. Then again, as I said. I'm still learning.;)
Airships, like warforged, were just starting to be introduced at the end of the war, within the last 10 years of the war if i remember correctly and not in very large numbers. The first few prototypes were dangerous and unreliable at best. Flipping through the ECS, they had a weight limit of 30 tons. If you did not count crew of 15 and thier food and equipment, and assumed your average soldier was at least 200lbs + 50 pounds of gear and armor, you're looking at no more than 240 soldiers max. But that is ignoring actual accomodations. You'd have to pack them in like sardines with no room to move about, piled on top of each other in steerage and shoulder to shoulder standing on the deck. You're probably looking at a passenger count of 15-45, depending on the size of the ship. This is good for inserting special forces, saboteurs, spies and advanced scouts/rangers behind enemy lines, as well as extra gear and provisions.
While you could certainly bribe house members, and then have them removed later, you have to consider the reprecussions. The Houses are going to be very protective of thier members and keeping up appearences of strength to prevent being nationalized themselves. They would hire another House to investigate the death, and if you rubbed them wrong in how brazen your action was, might even put out a hit on you with one of the elven assassin Houses just to send a message ;)
Thats actually a decent plot hook or two...
I did not know that, just discovered it and thought I'd share. Also the story on the last war is really great. I'm to "Cyre in the balance" now, so many issues are being resolved and cease fire treaties are being signed.
Also, the church of the silver flames crusade was wicked! This screams "kingpriest and the edict of manifest virtue!" Really good stuff!
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....or were they really Lord of Dust Raksashas who, having instigated the Last War in order to spur the necessary magical development to free the Overlords, required these artifacts for a later phase in their plan? AHHHHH!!!
I operate them much like the Spacing Guild in the Dune series. Orien will transport anything... for a price.
I would also say you could pay them to not transport things.
For example, one nation could pay them, essentially protection, so that other nations couldn't use Orien transports to overtly transport troops to/inside their borders (of course, covert operations would get past this).
Essentially Orien was running a protection racket on all the nations, pay them some money every year and they'll keep other nations from sending an army via lightning rail. Stop payments, and other nations can then freely hire Orien to transport troops to your doorstep.
No nation wouldn't pay Orien, and Orien would make far more from this over time than transporting a few armies. After all, given enough armies transported in this fashion by one nation, the war would have ended very quickly. Rapid troop deployment would have been very destructive, especially if one nation paid for an exclusivity deal.
EDIT: Isn't it true that for Eberron, none of the books outside the game supplements (i.e. the novels) are considered canon for the setting? So anything in the books can be disregarded (well it can be anyway if you're the DM)?
the small note about the band of celestials that appeared and took command of Thrane's army and securing numerous relics and artifacts before suddenly retreating and vanishing back to wherever they came from... not long before the Mourning. Perhaps they knew Cyre was doomed and needed to ensure that the artifacts wouldn't be destroyed in the cataclysm, because they would be necessary in the near future...
The Messengers (archons) are indeed a mystery. But I completely believe that if they were not responsible for the mourning, then they knew something vital.
Ooo. Which begs the question: Were they really angels?Show....or were they really Lord of Dust Raksashas who, having instigated the Last War in order to spur the necessary magical development to free the Overlords, required these artifacts for a later phase in their plan? AHHHHH!!!
I'm sure someone could google that old thread if they wanted to continue that debate, I merely bring it to your attention since you are new to Eberron and missed that discussion.
Thrane was the victim of fanaticism and corruption. It was its own worst enemy and I love how it was done. Very good underlined messages.
I for one thought the Forge of War emphasized the fanaticism and corruption too much. The church of Silver Flame in my eyes is much closer to the Jedi Order during the Old Republic than it is to the Spanish Inquisition. Can the Jedi fall to the dark side? Of course, but such a thing is not common or even likely. However when it does happen it is all the more horrific due to the Jedi's devotion to the light.
I for one thought the Forge of War emphasized the fanaticism and corruption too much. The church of Silver Flame in my eyes is much closer to the Jedi Order during the Old Republic than it is to the Spanish Inquisition. Can the Jedi fall to the dark side? Of course, but such a thing is not common or even likely. However when it does happen it is all the more horrific due to the Jedi's devotion to the light.
Well much of the problem came from outside the order. The levies for example. The church itself promoted it share of bad behavior to be sure but the outsiders being prompted by the church went overboard. Thats not to say the church wasn't working the population into a frenzied state, but I think that was the work of a few individuals. (keeper and a few cardinals) rather than the church as a whole. Although the result was that the churches reputation was smeared.
They earned that reputation due to the crusade. (sword point conversions and burning people alive.)
It should also be noted that Thaliost was claimed in the name of Thrane, not the church. Officials were asked to swear loyalty to Thrane (over Aundair), or die, not to convert to the Silver Flame faith.
The most ferverent and hardcore supporters of the Silver Flame are in eastern Aundair, and even they opposed Thrane. While they share the faith, they were born Aundairans, and they will die Aundairans.
The people who get burned in Thaliost are those that oppose the occupation of Thaliost by Thrane, not those who simply hold beliefs that the Silver Flame considers heretical.
Yes, the Church runs Thrane, but there is no law stating that one must actually worship the Silver Flame or follow its spiritual teachings. You do, however, have to follow the secular laws issued forth by the church.
It's politics more than religion.
Airships, like warforged, were just starting to be introduced at the end of the war, within the last 10 years of the war if i remember correctly and not in very large numbers. The first few prototypes were dangerous and unreliable at best. Flipping through the ECS, they had a weight limit of 30 tons. If you did not count crew of 15 and thier food and equipment, and assumed your average soldier was at least 200lbs + 50 pounds of gear and armor, you're looking at no more than 240 soldiers max. But that is ignoring actual accomodations. You'd have to pack them in like sardines with no room to move about, piled on top of each other in steerage and shoulder to shoulder standing on the deck.
Actually, as a paratrooper, that sounds like every c-130 or c-17 I've ever been in.
Which actually suggests to me that a single airship would work just fine to deliver a relatively small (1 or 2 companies) force behind enemy lines, D-Day style. Bear in mind that they don't need to embark the aircraft in their capital city - eliminating the need for a preconstructed airstrip means that such a force could be mustered and loaded up just a few miles behind the front lines, then delivered a few miles in on the other side. Uncomfortable transportation is pretty standard in most armies, and if it's only for a couple hours, no big deal.
True enough, on all accounts. Thinking about it, though, I think the weight used to figure how many troops can fit on an airship is off; I really doubt that they would be carrying just 50 lbs of gear. Double that, probably.
Depends on the soldiers, and the mission. If the mission is to act as a flanking force, forcing the enemy to give ground rather than be surrounded, then your air mobile troops would be expected to meet back up with the main body in a day or two. No need to carry much besides weapon, armor, and a few meals.
Alternatively, they could just be there to wreak havoc, scavenging off the enemy's lands and supply lines. Again, not much need for heavy supplies.
Regardless of the mission, bear in mind that unless the enemy had significant ability to interdict an airship, you could deliver whatever supplies they needed the same way you delivered the troops.
Depends...assuming each is equipped with a feather fall magic item, you have honest-to-Aureon paratroopers.
Airships change warfare, but that's true of flight in general. The truth of the matter is that the intelligence and scouting they provide is probably more useful than any troop insertion.
Depends...assuming each is equipped with a feather fall magic item, you have honest-to-Aureon paratroopers.
Ganked for my current campaign. The Forge of War specifically states that while House Lyrandar airships were used to transport troops and materiel they were not used in a combat capacity.
EDIT: Some airships were sold to specific nations and those saw combat. I can't believe I missed that, it's practically the next sentence.
Airships change warfare, but that's true of flight in general. The truth of the matter is that the intelligence and scouting they provide is probably more useful than any troop insertion.
For a long time airships were slow, unreliable, and prohibitively expensive. I can't imagine airships being more effective reconnaissance units than spells and clockwork devices. Based on The Forge of War, it seems like they were most useful as a mode of transportation.
A limiting factor is that airships came out in 990YK, or eight years ago. So, Lyrander gets these shiny new toys, probably producing only a handful a year, and four years later, major combat operations cease. I don't see any sort of widespread doctrine on the use of airships.
Thing is, though, thinking about it, the time would be perfect for a visionary like Giulio Douhet, one of the key figures in the concept of strategic bombing. Might start an arms race.....
Anyways. Airships had, at best, an ancillary role in the Last War. To my way of thinking, if a country needed logistical support, they would ship bulk stuff on the Lightning Rail, and then offload it onto Orien-approved carting businesses ("black unicorns") for transportation to the front lines. Conceptually, black unicorns would allow baggage trains to move slower than a marching army (a problem throughout antiquity, as oxen are slow but will live, and horses go faster, but die), whereas if a country wanted a log train that could actually keep up with forward elements, they'd hire actual House businesses, if not 'marked.