Okay, let me first state that I love the Eberron setting, although my last gaming group was kinda "old school" and wouldn't go for it. However, I've been an avid follower of the forums and I truly love the tone of the setting. The "swashbuckling, pulp-noir action-adventure" just really WORKS for me. I love the races, the post-War, divided remnants of a Kingdom feel, and the moral ambiguity. However, there's a few elements of the setting that, on reflection, just don't "click" for me. In no particular order:
Aerenal elves: This is one of the big ones. The notion of macabre death-obsessed elves just doesn't work for me. I realize that some of this was an attempt to put a different "twist" on the core races, but honestly, I just don't get this one.
Shadow Marches orcs: Again, this seems like a desperate attempt to break molds. Peaceful orcs just don't work for me. It's less jarring than the elves because it's not MOST orcs - just a small subculture. Ironically, I can buy the goblin races as the shattered remnants of a fallen empire and fit them into the cracks of society. But orcs? I guess I'm just mostly a traditionalist when it comes to my orcs, and orc farmers just seem...wrong.
Services Provided by the Dragonmarked Houses: Not all of them, by any stretch. Just a few, like the Teleport stations, the Lightning Rail, and the House Sivis messaging stuff. I admit to going back and forth on the Lightning Rail, but I really dislike the notion of instantaneous sending - of messages, goods, or people - to be available as a readily purchasable service.
The question I have is, if I'm taking this much out, should I just write a campaign world from scratch that uses the Eberron elements I LIKE, or should I run Eberron and take out the things I don't like. Certainly, I can do either, but I'm just wondering what others would do. Would you start from scratch and steal liberally? Or would you start from Eberron and edit? I think the latter would be easier, but the former might produce a better setting in the end. Especially because as I think about it, there are other changes I could make that might start to make for an interesting setting.
It would have a lot of elements familiar to Eberron fans though (although none of my players have ever gamed in that setting, I think they'd enjoy the elements I want to use). I'm just wondering if it would be TOO derivative.
If what you want is mostly Eberron with some changes, I'd start with that. If you later decide that the Demon Wastes don't really fit your vision and the players haven't had any dealings with it, change it. Frankly where your players are and where they are going is more important than the rest of setting. For my campaign world, I've detailed only a small portion. Mostly where the players have been going.
if I'm taking this much out, should I just write a campaign world from scratch that uses the Eberron elements I LIKE, or should I run Eberron and take out the things I don't like.
I definitely think its worthwhile to keep it set in Eberron (although if you're players dislike house-ruling stuff, it may benefit you to give it a new name just so they don't complain and say "where are the death-obsessed elves?").
Some things you're keeping:
- The warrior-caste elves.
- The prophecy-obsessed dragons
- House Jorasco
- Druidic orcs? Or do these get nixed as well?
I change stuff in Eberron willy nilly all the time. Its not quite as obvious as removing or changing entire nations, but its on that scale nonetheless.
Perhaps readjusting your perceptions of the two races you appear to have issues with (the elves and orcs) would better serve your purpose rather than using a "Wayne's World Wiggly Fingers" approach.
Firstly on the subject of orcs. They aren't peaceful... never have been, never will be. What half of the in the Shadow Marches are is approachable. If you're going for classic orc, you need to remember that half of the orcs in the Marches are frothing at the mouth fanatics and cultists of the Dragon Below (in various aspects). They don't get along, they like to hurt thing and they're happy to convert you with their axe, preferably embedded in your skull while they howl prayers to the darkness beneath the soil.
That being said, the other Marcher clans are no less dangeorus, they just happen to listen to you, some of the time. Think of them as being more like small barbarian clans, each fighting for territory, each having it's own traditions and customs. They probably duel to the death, have great champions and possibly even blood sacrifice (though not actual death, just blood letting). What sets them apart is the teachings of Vvarrak they have incorporated into their lives.
They are in tune with nature, which means they are excellent trackers, can live off of the land and see things in different ways. For the, it's all about spirits and shamanistic signs. Rituals using blood, leaves and fire. They aren't likely to burn, loot and pillage because that's wanton destruction, not something nature generally does (though there are occassional natural disasters). But they are aggressive, stubborn, prideful, quick to act and not likely to embrace strangers. Their druids would be wise people, but their aggression would stilll bleed out into their actions. However they take a long view, prefering to harm over time rather than instant gratification.
The same thing goes for the Elves. These are a long-lived people and very much venerate the ancient concepts of their ancestors, much like our traditional (Tolkien inspired) Elves. What set's them apart is that their ancestors are still with them. Think of Elves as similar to the Egyptians, but they do come back from death as holy creatures to help guide the next generation. We still have the classic in tune with nature and balance Elves, but with more of a traditional and ritualistic bent. If you really don't like Aerenal, don't go there. Remember there are a number of elven families that live on Khorvaire and haven't interacted with their southern neighbours in centuries. This gives you free-reign to create whatever sorts of elves you wish.
Hope that's food for thought and best of luck running Eberron! It's an excellent setting ;) .
I actually have to say that simply changing my perceptions works for the orcs, but less well for the elves. I tried seeing them as similar to Egyptians, but that didn't solve the problem. You see, the elves' perceptions about death as presented in the book don't quite "gel" with an Egyptian mindset. True, the Egyptians had very elaborate rituals associated with death, but they didn't have any cultural leanings about trying to make the living look like the dead - quite the opposite, actually. It too me a while to figure it out, but I finally discovered my real problem. It goes back to the corpse-like nature (and appearance) of the Deathless.
However, I think I may have come up with a solution that works for me, and allows me to preserve (and use) Aerenal with only minor, rather than major, alterations. The idea comes from the 3e sourcebook Ghostwalk, and the city of Manifest. For those not familiar with it, in that book, ghosts could, and did, linger on for a while as corporeal entities in a particular location. Placing such a location in central Aerenal allows me to preserve the central idea of the Deathless (special elves remaining after death as undead councillors) - without the (to me) squicky decaying corpses. And since the Deathless no longer LOOK like corpses, that's not something to aspire to and the skull face tattoos go out the window. They still have advanced embalming - perhaps even magic rituals designed to preserve corpses - and maybe even elaborate death masks like the ancient egyptians. And their culture is still strongly influenced by this.
I think I'm satisfied that I can do all I want to do in a campaign by just modifying Eberron. I don't need to start over from scratch and can focus primarily on flavorful tweaks and thrilling adventures. Thanks for all your input.
I'd get a feel for what my players like as well. If somebody in the party is into goth emo punks, or really, really hates goth emo punks, Aerenal gets to become Goth Emo Punk Land. You don't even need to get them into the Underdark to encounter the Shadar-Kai or Drow! They're right there on their very own island of goth emo punkosity!
Personally, I find in my writing that everything goes the best when I have but the lightest idea of where things will end up. I put my characters into situations and see what they do. Granted, this way is messy but I enjoy it. When RPing with other people, this sense is heightened like 500%. Acceptance that there *will* be areas that will be changed that I didn't think of or that I choose not to control is one of the marks of a DM, I think. That includes giving yourself the leeway to just ignore aspects of the setting you don't totally agree with until you absolutely have to. And even then, throwing some of that decision-making to the players.
That leaves me with a choice: pro-actively change those things, or write a homebrew world of my own. However, since I like (by my estimation) about 90% of the setting, I think I'll stick with modifying Eberron as opposed to cribbing THAT much of it.
Starting with that developed a world also has the upside of severely reducing my prep time for the campaign. Now, I suppose it's entirely possible the setting will drift even further afield from canon Eberron as the campaign progresses, but I'm okay with that. If that happens, I'll deal with it as it comes.
Oh, for the record, I've run the ideas past my players and mummy elves don't really work for them either - the ones I've spoken to, at any rate. However, my alternate approach seemed to elicit some interest. So I fall back on the basic rule of DMing: if something doesn't work for your group, replace it with something that does. I just have to remember to keep that in mind.
But I do have to defend the Lightning rail concept (although I think you could scrap it without hardly any fuss) to me it is just the logical progression of a society that has regular access to magic. If you can make a horseless carraige and connect several together why wouldn't you. I can see how someone might not like the idea of thier characters zipping around the continent, but it does give you the opportunity to showcase what different cultures Eberron has to offer and it's not like they go everywhere. I dont really use the teleportation that much in my campaign but plenty of other settings have used them liberally, it seems logical that somewhere along the line one group would've gotten particularly good at using them and profitted greatly from it.
I'd like to know some of the things you really enjoy about this setting that would outweigh the things you'd scrap.
Okay, I honestly gave this some further thought. And I've come around on the Lightning Rail. As I said, I was going back and forth, and I've decided that the stories I can tell with it outweigh any issues I have with it conceptually making the setting feel more "modern" than I would like.
Let me explain a little. I have a preference for "rational" fantasy - that is, fantasy worlds with realistic (or at least plausible) assumptions. Honestly, it's one of the things I've liked about Eberron since we first started hearing about it. I like the notion of a society that makes reasonable use of the magic they have access to - because it makes sense. But it's a fairly long jump from "using magic" to "magically replicating" things we did technologically in "the real world." That was initially my issue with the lightning rail. Why would a magical society create something so similar to a train? Then I remembered that the Romans had mine carts and similar things. They just lacked the motive force to make it a practical form of long-distance transportation. That realization solved any "issues" I had with the lightning rail.
Honestly, I love the bulk of the setting. I guess I just have this urge to put my own stamp on it to make it uniquely "mine" when I run it. And what is a better target for that creativity than changing the parts of the setting I don't completely love?
As I said, I've worked out a version of the Deathless that works much better for me. And the comments here have made me rethink most of the other things I've had issues with. My setting still probably won't be completely canon, but that's just 'cuz I have a tinkerer's heart.
Thanks for all the feedback!
And keep in mind that House Sivis's message services require a non-trivial amount of money for most people, as do the teleportation services run by House Orien (in fact, Orien's require a lot of money). Adventurers and elite members of society can afford to use them, but to most people, the message stations are fairly rarely used, and teleportation isn't something they'll see in their lives.
Anyway, I still say the best analog to Eberron isn't Forgotten Realms or some other DnD gameworld but Star Wars. The quick travel/communication is there for you to facilitate the treks to far-flung reaches of the world that are so much a part of pulp fiction. If you have an adventure idea that requires some of this to be offline, it's not too much of a stretch to get the part out into the wilderness and away from the lightning rail and the communication stones... or have them down in the area due to interference (note: this is something you should probably comment on before undertaking the adventure; if a player tries to solve your adventure's problem by going to a teleportation circle and you say "oh, they're down" it sounds like DM railroading unless you've set up the possibility for that already).
But it's a fairly long jump from "using magic" to "magically replicating" things we did technologically in "the real world."
Just as a quick point on message stations... my goal with Eberron was not simply to replace what we have in our world with magic, but to say "How could you use arcane magic as it exists in D&D to accomplish the basic needs of an advanced civilization - medicine, communication, transportation, warfare, etc"? Message stations AREN'T instant communication; that would be accomplished with sending, which exists but is limited and expensive. The message stations are based on whispering wind, which allows a short message from be sent from one point to another. The message stations are links in this chain, allowing a WW message to be sent along the chain from one to another. So it is similar in end result to a telegraph - point to point communication. But that's because whispering wind is a tool that allows point to point communication; they've industrialized it by having a set network of locations you can send your messages to. But unlike a telegraph, there's no need for wires connecting them or anything like that; you just need to know the location of the target stone.
Essentially, whispering wind is in the world and communication is a vital part of society; my thought was that if WW existed, it would be used to bridge this gap. The fact that it's very similar to a telegraph in end result is a side effect - and the fact of the matter is that it is actually NOT instant, with the message moving at a rate of a mile a minute. So it can still take days to deliver a message through the stones; it's just faster than delivering it by hand.
Just a random note.
It should be noted that Eberron stands in opposition to other settings which are basically medieval Europe with magic superimposed on top of it, with virtually no thought given to how it influences society.
OT: My general thought has always been that magic is rare and not entirely controlable. It doesn't heavily influence the medievel Europe because it isn't common enough. Magic is very individualistic and can't be mass produced in my fantasy world vision. In fact I always hated +X weapons and felt that every magic item should have a name and history behind it. Of course, Eberron has a different take which is interesting and I like the setting.
OT: My general thought has always been that magic is rare and not entirely controlable. It doesn't heavily influence the medievel Europe because it isn't common enough. Magic is very individualistic and can't be mass produced in my fantasy world vision.
Which, in my opinion, is the point of magic in Tolkein. There are X number of wizards in the world. They are Special People. You can't just decide to become a wizard.
The problem I have with this approach in D&D RAW is that magic IS entirely controllable. A wizard can cast X spells per day and they will always work unless someone smacks him when he's casting (and at that point it depends what he's casting). He's got a spellbook that contains the formulas for casting those spells. When he meets another wizard of the same level, they can exchange spellbooks and copy down one another's spells, and cast those spells perfectly. And at least in some settings, if you're in a big city, you can't throw a rock without hitting a wizard.
So given that magic obeys written formulas, that you don't have to be a special bloodline or smething like that to become a wizard, and that any wizard can use those formulas... and potentially create new ones... why doesn't magic evolve like other sciences?
Frankly, I think Eberron as it stands doesn't go far enough in this regard. I really wanted more of a sense of how modern magic has reached this point... what major innovations led to what we now take for granted. what magic was like when Galifar unified the Five Nations. But this is something I've discussed at some length and detail in other threads.
But I understand that you're talking about what you prefer to do in your own setting, and that's cool - there's a lot of wonderful stories that can only be told in a limited magic setting. Eberron was just trying to take the concept that arcane magic as presented in 3E IS a science... and go from there. 4E rituals in many ways support this premise even better... but I've discussed my issues with this earlier.