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| #1m4kitsuOct 21, 2008 4:44:32 | I know this thread has come up often before, but the ideas typically presented in them I think may be of some help to me. My group recently concluded a n18 month long weekly Eberron campaign that took the PCs all across Khorvaire and up to 9th level. The campaign was epic, entertaining, and the climactic scene -a tower-top dragon battle in Sharn was a fitting send-off to the 3rd edition that served us all so well. The game ended on a huge cliffhanger, though, with the characters discovering that the dragon was merely one part of a much larger conspiracy, and that the PCs themselves may have also been playing their own unwitting part in it. I'd like to continue the game someday in 4e, but I'm meeting some resistance from the group about making the conversion -all but one of them is having some trouble adapting their characters to 4e, and I think that's the primary source of their hesitation. The party has a bunch of splatbook specialist classes, some of which are converted over more easily than others. I'd like your help in giving my players some options and thoughts about converting their characters, and hopefully this thread will give us some ideas that we haven't come up with already. For the sake of simplicity, if we pick this back up, it'll be a Paragon Tier campaign, so assume the characters will be starting at 11th level. Alesandros "Crow" Soldano- Human Fighter 2/Marshal 5/Warblade 2 Crow is a dour, sarcastic Cyran ex-soldier driven to bitterness and drink by the Mourning. He wields his family's ancestral bastard sword, and was one of the party's front-liners. His Warblade training focused on the White Raven style, which complimented the leadership qualities of the Marshal, a class from the 3.0 Minis Handbook. Gwenalyn Barris d'Lyrandar- Half-Elf Fighter 3/Wizard 4/Knight Phantom 2 Gwen is a young Aundairian heir of the kraken and bears the Least Mark of Storm. She fights with a mixed style of rapier, longbow, and arcane spell, and was also trained in many of the roguish skills. The closest thing the party had to back-line fire support, and the resident trap monkey. Sergeant Galen Almax- Human Warmage 9 A Brelish special-forces operative and an ex-POW who survived and escaped Dreadhold. Mentally scarred by his experiences and the secret supersoldier program he was a part of. Favored getting close to his enemies and pounding them with short-range AoE and line spells. Fast, tough, intelligent and FAR outclassed the rest of the party combined on damage dealt. Major Luca Jhaelien, the Devil Dog- Human Dread Necromancer 9 An icy-hearted Karrnathi officer born with the touch of undeath about her and a talented necromancer. Had the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat from Libris Mortis, and was equal parts summoner and debuffer. Not a true front-liner, but usually not far behind. Fought with a longsword as her weapon of choice. Sir Skorne, Knight of the Silver Flame- Warforged Paladin 5/Knight 4 An adamantine warforged hailing from southern Thrane with suspicious gaps in his memory of the past. Fought with longsword and heavy shield and was the party's premier line breaker and main tank as well as their only real source of healing. *** That's the party as they appeared at the end of the game. The campaign ran from April to October 998YK in-game, and I'm thinking about picking it back up in December of 1000YK, just a few days before the campaign time line ticks over into the new millennium. I asked the players to all do a bit of an epilogue for their characters, and this is what they gave me, if it may help with the conversions: Crow has opened his own fencing academy on Stormhome island with the blessing of House Lyrandar, and is training a new generation in the classic fighting styles of old Cyre. Gwen is a recruit of the Knights Phantom, and once her training is complete, she will be sent wherever an elite strike team of warrior-mages is needed to combat the enemies of Aundair, both foreign and domestic. Galen has disappeared into central Khorvaire on a journey to come to terms with his past and the demons that haunt his memory. Luca has been deployed to Karrnath's new front lines to fight Valenar warbands, Talenta raiders and the Emerald Claw. Skorne has returned to Sigilstar to uncover the mysteries of his past as he continues his training as a Knight of the Flame. *** I've done some talking with the players about 4e conversions, and here's what we've been able to come up with so far: Crow - Warlord is the obvious choice, but the player balks at the flavor of the class and says it doesn't deal enough damage. Not that Crow ever did, compared to Luca and Galen. Gwen - Wizard/Fighter/Wizard of the Spiral Tower. The player is fairly sure about this, and is more concerned with 4e overall rather than rebuilding the character. Galen - Wizard is the obvious choice, but the character is going to suffer a dramatic reduction in damage capability. I suggested a Warlock, but we're unsure of that, and it lacks AoE. Luca - we're having the most trouble with this one. The debuffer role is simple enough to replicate, but the player wants the summoning capability, which doesn't exist in 4e at this point, and probably won't for some time. Skorne - Still a Paladin, and since the Pallie and the Fighter ganged up on the 3.5 Knight, beat him up in an alley and took his stuff, he doesn't really change much. Again, this player's problem is more with 4e than with the character build. So what does the forum think? Gwen and Skorne are easy enough, but how do I convert Crow, Galen and Luca, keep their effectiveness (to some degree, at least), do it without losing their flavor, and make my players okay with it? They all like 4e well enough, and we all enjoyed Keep on the Shadowfell, but they're somewhat resistant to the idea of altering such long-running characters at this stage. |
| #2GiloOct 21, 2008 4:58:59 | Just a side-question is this going to be your first 4e sessions ? cause jumping into a new system at Paragon seem a bit rough. Edit: oh well, thats what happens when you don't read till the end. |
| #3GiloOct 21, 2008 6:14:19 | Luca - we're having the most trouble with this one. The debuffer role is simple enough to replicate, but the player wants the summoning capability, which doesn't exist in 4e at this point, and probably won't for some time. There are some options, it was discussed here I think that flavoring an Onyx dog magical item as a ritual and having it create some undead creature (skeleton, zombie, skeleton swarm ...) instead of a dog - could be a nice solution (I especially like the fact that the necromancer needs to trade his healing surges for the summoned creatures hit points). And for the other PCs there is the homebrew Paragon paths we created on this board (Citaldel Elite, Cyran Avenger, Knight Arcane, Knight Phantom could be relevant) thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1089203 Dragon Above site: http://www.dragon-above.com/index.php?p=features/ppp1 |
| #4anguirus23Oct 28, 2008 18:34:24 | Crow - Warlord is the obvious choice, but the player balks at the flavor of the class Hmm, I really don't follow here. Warlord has precisely the same flavor as Marshal. However, the Warblade is actually a pretty good fit with the 4E Fighter, and if he's complaining about damage as a Fighter then there's no pleasing him. Gwen - Wizard/Fighter/Wizard of the Spiral Tower. The player is fairly sure about this, and is more concerned with 4e overall rather than rebuilding the character. Sounds good. To replicate the "Knight Phantom" thing a custom mount, spell, or ritual might be good. Also, the swordmage is worth a look, possibly even a multiclass to ranger (for the longbow fun). Galen - Wizard is the obvious choice, but the character is going to suffer a dramatic reduction in damage capability. I suggested a Warlock, but we're unsure of that, and it lacks AoE. Absolutely go with Wizard. If in 4E one character is applying the highest damage to the greatest number of targets, something is a bit wrong. Mind you, Wizards can still do gut-wrenching amounts of damage, especially with the Blood Mage PP. Wizard is the best thematic fit, period. He wasn't playing a striker before, so why should he start now? He can MC to warlock if he really wants to, but I really doubt that will help since most warlock powers aren't really about the damage. If he's really that obsessed with damage, reflavor a ranger. :P Luca - we're having the most trouble with this one. The debuffer role is simple enough to replicate, but the player wants the summoning capability, which doesn't exist in 4e at this point, and probably won't for some time. This is awfully tricky. Suggestions: -Wait for the "beastmaster ranger" from Martial Power, and use that as a guide to add a pet to an Infernal or Star warlock. -Build in innate abilities similar to a Bag of Tricks and a Figurine of Wondrous Power. Make him pay for them like any other character would and say that they are the results of twisted rituals, or something. -Create an Animate Dead ritual modeled off the 3.5 spell. Be careful here...no other ritual remotely resembles the ability to build or recruit an army. -Buy an undead pet using mount rules as a guideline. In fact, the skeletal horse is in the AV already. Skorne - Still a Paladin, and since the Pallie and the Fighter ganged up on the 3.5 Knight, beat him up in an alley and took his stuff, he doesn't really change much. Again, this player's problem is more with 4e than with the character build. Nice. I HIGHLY recommend using the Dragon magazine warforged, it's straight-up better than the MM warforged as well as being more fun. He can embed plate armor to model his adamantine body. He could also MC if there is a Warlord power or something that reminds him of the Knight (the Knight Commander Warlord PP is excellent for paladins who MC). |
| #5m4kitsuNov 01, 2008 1:10:25 | Hmm, I really don't follow here. Warlord has precisely the same flavor as Marshal. However, the Warblade is actually a pretty good fit with the 4E Fighter, and if he's complaining about damage as a Fighter then there's no pleasing him. Indeed. The problem is that this player equates usefulness with DPS, and seems to lack the understanding that there are other ways to help your party. He also makes flavor decisions that adversely affect the build, then whines about it later. C'est la vie, I suppose. Sounds good. To replicate the "Knight Phantom" thing a custom mount, spell, or ritual might be good. Also, the swordmage is worth a look, possibly even a multiclass to ranger (for the longbow fun). Good point about the Swordmage. Wizard/Swordmage/Wizard of the Spiral Tower, perhaps. I was planning on allowing Gwen to cast Phantom Steed once a day for free anyway to replicate the keystone feature of the Knight Phantom. This is awfully tricky. Suggestions: You see my trouble with this. The other issue is the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, which I can't even analogue, since the mechanic it was based on doesn't exist anymore. I'd hand-wave that one away under other circumstances, but it's a rather pivotal plot point for the character. Mind you, Wizards can still do gut-wrenching amounts of damage, especially with the Blood Mage PP. And I am greatly relieved by this change, since the party, even at low-levels, was running to the Wizard problem: the rest of the party keeps the wizard clear of bad guys so that he can beat the encounter. |
| #6GiloNov 01, 2008 2:40:19 | The other issue is the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, which I can't even analogue, since the mechanic it was based on doesn't exist anymore. I'd hand-wave that one away under other circumstances, but it's a rather pivotal plot point for the character. How was this feat used by Luca in 3.5 (how was this character getting healed in combat?) The only thing I can think of in terms of 4e - is some special DM custom made disease (there is already the "Slimy Doom" disease that gives/removes healing surges - so its not without precedent to mess with the character's healing mechanism). The disease can give the healing-surge value damage anytime the subject is healed by a Divine keyword heal. and can only use second-wind in the same round after receiving necrotic damage (on the offside the disease can give a resistance to necrotic damage and second-wind as a free action). |
| #7m4kitsuNov 01, 2008 5:00:34 | How was this feat used by Luca in 3.5 (how was this character getting healed in combat?) Mostly, Luca healed herself. I ruled that, since she effectively acts like an undead for positive/negative energy interaction, that her Charnel Touch could be used to heal herself the same as it can be used to heal allied undead. Likewise for her Inflict spells and Negative Energy Burst. I was originally somewhat dubious about doing this, but since the only healer the party had was the Paladin, it ended up taking some pressure off his meager combat healing, which ended up being a good thing. |
| #8anguirus23Nov 01, 2008 18:52:36 | You could model that with an MC to cleric, so the character can heal himself with his own dark power (healing word). I suppose technically he could heal others as well...maybe every time he does it a kitten dies, or something? Or design a feat that replaces a power (like an MC feat) that can be used to either activate his own healing surge, or to do an attack vs. Ref for necrotic damage. I think the problem that you guys are hitting with this character is that he was a case of flavor evolving from mechanics: specifically, the 3.5 mechanics of negative vs. positive energy. This mechanic doesn't exist anymore, for some pretty solid reasons...however, it requires some flexibility/compromise of the guy's backstory. It's also pretty simple to reflavor Second Wind as a Charnel Touch kind of thing. Or design a feat that you get temp HP whenever you make a melee attack? I'm just throwing out options here...hope you find something you can use. |
| #9GiloNov 10, 2008 6:47:35 | Its not an official WotC, but if you check the pdf - it looks very professional: Playtest: Dread Necromancer |