Plus, there is a current trend of making religons-hostile (in a large sense) fantasy worlds, which is so cliché and pseudo-rebelious to me...
Anyway. I want to hear things from DMs who chose the 'they exist' position(s). What is the Truth in your Eberron? Can you tell me a bit, in case I ever run the setting one day, or play in it?
Hints, advices, ideas, guys?
I suppose this is less the direct theist approach and sort of an existential approach but its born up by the setting. Aureon (or his Shadow, depending) is in every arcane rite and ritual, in every book, and Aureon is there every time a father teaches something to his son. Aureon isn't just a god sitting atop some extraplanar mountain in a massive library, nor does he walk the world in human form (he could, but the Eberron god's know that never ends well).
They are concepts, and they exist within those concepts. Everytime a man draws his sword in defense of another Dol Dorn is there, Dol Dorn is there in the sweat of every athlete who runs an honest race, just as the Mockery is there every time some takes delight in slaughter, or anytime someone cheats to get ahead.
But these are more than concepts they do have will, and they empower those who would further their aspect of the world, but they are subtle, they work in mysterious ways. To quote Futurama "If you do things right people will wonder if you did anything at all."
So while the PCs will never (at least in my games) fight the Mockery himself made manifest (that's what Rakshasa Rajah's are for), a Cleric of the Host fights him every day, bringing those who betray to justice, and opposing those who revel in the kill.
When people talk of the gods as if they were people they are projecting. The gods are really beyond comprehension, they are more than simply really really really powerful immortal humanoids with worshipers.
I'd also go against the belief that they exist on some sort of higher plane, no they are part of the fabric of the world, if they exist anywhere its in the prime material. Because so is the world, so are the Gods.
This is one bit of the setting that make me hesitate - maybe a catholic-lite upbringing leftover, or something. The agnostism of the setting. The 'between chairs' uncertainity; I'd prefer a more clear statement I guess.
Plus, there is a current trend of making religons-hostile (in a large sense) fantasy worlds, which is so cliché and pseudo-rebelious to me...
Anyway. I want to hear things from DMs who chose the 'they exist' position(s). What is the Truth in your Eberron? Can you tell me a bit, in case I ever run the setting one day, or play in it?
Hints, advices, ideas, guys?
I, personally, really like the "you just don't know" option. I refuse, in any game, to actually explicitly make it clear whether they exit or not. Like in real life, the existence of gods is a hotly debated topic in my Eberron. According to the Silver Flame, the Silver Flame is real and a god. According to clerics of the host, the host is real. According to an atheistic ex-soldier from the last war, the gods are a load of bologna. Yea, clerics can cast spells, but so can wizards! Casting spells doesn't prove a god is real, and if the gods are real, they never would have allowed the suffering of the Great War to continue the way it did. Who is right? Well, in real life, does god exist? Some say yes, some say no, who is right? The very nature of faith is that it relies on faith against an uncertain concept. Remove that uncertain concept, and you are actually removing faith from your game. What you have is a extra-planer government ruled by a supernatural and super powerful being. Personally, I find faith more of an intresting concept. Governments already exist in Eberron, and I don't feel the need to transform the religions into a few more.
Thats my 2 coper pieces.
I disagree also that incertitude is key to faith, and vice versa. Look again at our philosophias and theologias...
But anyway. More insights on a 'there is Somethings' theologic decision for Eberron? be it abstract or litteral versions of the gods, but they are definitly there... In a way. Albeit perhaps different from told 'truths'...
I disagree also that incertitude is key to faith, and vice versa. Look again at our philosophies and theologies...
I would argue that despite any of our philosophies and theologies, as no philosophy or theology can intrinsically prove the existence of god, faith in the end always relies on a certain amount of uncertainty. What makes faith faith is the ability to believe in the existence of something that you can not prove. But this is neither here nor there, nor does it answer your question/help you out with your request.
If I was going to assume that the gods are real in Eberron, I think I would do so by looking at it from the point of view of priests in Eberron. Are the gods real? Yes. Can you find them/speak to them? Yes, but only through prayer and belief. The gods don't walk the earth. They don't have physical forms. The gods are something beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. The names we give them, the physical forms we attribute to their avatars, these are things we require in order to somehow conceptualize the "object" or "person" of our faith. It is an avatar that receives our prayers, and and in effect works as a messenger to the reality of the gods, a reality that mortal kine can never fully grasp. The avatars themselves are not real: they are simply the only way that we (the Ebberonian populace) can conceive a god.
As I've understood it, Eberron's gods may or may not exist. Divine incantations are powered by belief. The Silver Flame is the only "visible" source, and that isn't really guaranteed to be "divinity".
That's my point that I brought... DMs are left to decides, if they see fit.
I have seen DMs leaning on the 'they are not' setting, quite so. I want to see the opposite 'they are'; ideas, remarks, etc...
Perhaps not a more anthropomorphic versions of them, and maybe they are not... quite... as the priests say, but... They Are.
Of course this means that it'd be difficult to have an evil cleric of the Flame who learned the power himself, since he doesn't have his beliefs in tune with the divinity he wishes to channel, but perhaps you only need a section of that belief.
As long as he shares something in common with the source, he can channel it. Something like Kaius. He's evil, but it could be said that he actually works towards a 'greater good'.
Tied to this, you have the clear existence of "manufactured" sources of divine power - the Silver Flame (formed from the sacrifice of the couatl) and the Undying Court (formed from the collective souls of the Aereni). So with that said, once you accept that the Sovereigns are coherent sources of divine magic, the question is whether they are gods as D&D players typically think of them... or something else. Aureon seems to be a concept that has influenced the world for tens of thousands of years. So is Aureon...
- A true, active god - a being who watches the world and actively influences events? If so, is he the ascended spirit of Ourelonastrix, the champion loredrake of the Age of Demons? Or is he something far more primal - an active force, but nonetheless the pure spirit of magic and knowledge, guiding the thoughts of every sage and wizard?
- The spirit of an ascended dragon who watches the world for a time, until he is replaced by the next dragon suitable to the role? This is the belief espoused by the draconic religion of Thir.
- The collective spirit of ALL dragons (and possibly other creatures) who have embraced the archetype of Aureon - essentially, a gestalt entity similar to the Undying Court?
- A purely philosophical construct - a source of divine power drawn from the belief shared across cultures, but one that could not take any action on its own or have any desire to influence events? Essentially, are the sovereigns constructs of mortals, empowering those who follow their paths in life even though they have no conscious intent?
- Nothing at all - the existence of "Aureon" in multiple cultures is a purely social phenomena?
- Any of the above... but you may also have powerful outsiders or dragons taking on the roles of the deities in the world, so you could encounter "Aureon"; it's just a powerful blue dragon, possibly using diving channeling. This is where you get the dracolich in the Lair of the Keeper, or the stories about the Traveler walking the world; these probably aren't GODS, but they may use the name and act the part.
Obviously, the setting is intended to allow any of these to be true, and to allow people within the world itself to actively debate the issues. Again, personally, I lean towards the earlier edge of the spectrum - that there IS some source of power associated with the Sovereigns, and it either influences the world or is influenced by the world (does the Devourer cause the storm, or does the presence of the storm strengthen the concept of the Devourer?). Again, you CAN worship your shoe, but it's not a trivial thing - which is why the Sovereign Host has influence across multiple continents, and none of the contries are dominated by shoe-worshipping sects. Some theologians argue that the shoe-worshipper is actually drawing power from the Sovereign closest in concept to his ideal - that there's only the nine and six and one, but someone of great conviction can get the favor of a Sovereign even with flawed beliefs.
Despite this, I'm still never going to have my PCs actually meet a deity. I'm not "religions-hostile"; on the contrary, my goal with Eberron was to try to make religions that I felt could have deep interactions with players and the world. I like the distant gods because it makes the gods something MORE than just powerful outsiders or demon princes. If the Sovereigns exist, they cannot be bound to statistics. If the myths are true, the Devourer IS present in every storm. You can't fight that, any more than Cuchulainn could fight the sea. Yet perhaps, if you gain its favor, the storm will pass you by or even strike your enemies. I do feel that there are divine powers in the world - but they are fundamentally different from mortals. The outsiders are the bridge. Dol Dorn (if he exists), is present in EVERY battle, but does not manifest physically to fight; on the other hand, an ANGEL dedicated to Dol Dorn is the idea of war made physically manifest, and it may appear and act in Dol Dorn's name. (On that note, I don't believe that the angel has ever personally hung out with Dol Dorn, either - you just can't "hang out" with Dol Dorn. But it is completely certain of its role as a blade of Dol Dorn, and has no doubt that the Sovereign exists; that's part of what it means to be an angel.)
So, the canon material will always leave it open to debate. But I think there's lots of ways to justify the existence of the gods, and even to make them more active - though I'd personally use outsiders, dragons, or other intermediaries instead of ever using a god-with-statistics. But that's just my personal preference.
merci.I also believe there are other forms of divinity. To me, the Silver Flame is the collective spirit of the couatls who willingly sacrificed themselves to rid the world of the greater evils and allowed hope and goodness to flourish. This sacrifice created a form of divinity, something mortals could draw from to spread the good message and encourage righteousness. Perhaps if the Silver Flame had a large enough following, the Flame could encompass the world as it once had and create the pure good world all worshippers seek to accomplish.
Riedran priests also call upon the Path of Inspiration, which to me is the collective unconciousness of all Riedran citizens and what the strive for. In my campaign, only extremely powerful forces can produce any form of divinity, so clerics who draw upon two random domains are simply calling upon two aspects the Nine and Six and One.
I am not saying that making the gods actually real is a bad thing for a campaign. The cool thing with Eberron is it is all "Up in the air" and a DM can do whatever makes him/her happy and do whatever is best for their campaign. Gods being more active can work in EB just like any other setting.
It could be a recent even or "just always" been that way. The setting is very adaptable that way. It is not claustrophobic and it doesn't make you feel "forced" to follow canon. These forums (EB forums) are all about creativiy and breaking the canon rules. They are about ideas of all kinds.
How can we help you make EB a setting you might want to run?
Plus when you post Hellcow just might answer which is a pretty sweet deal.
Anyway, the answer is that someone can hang out with the gods, or hear directly fromt he gods, but only if they choose, and you cannot fight them because they are beyond everything of this world and its planes, unless they choose not to be.
This is one bit of the setting that make me hesitate - maybe a catholic-lite upbringing leftover, or something. The agnostism of the setting. The 'between chairs' uncertainity; I'd prefer a more clear statement I guess.
It is imo certainly plausible to state or game with the notion that Eberroni gods are real - the only issue is that they do not take a hands-on approach in everything that concerns them. They are more distant and their motives are much more circumspect, but it need not be due to some limitation on their part - perhaps they simply choose to be this way. Whatever they are and for whatever reason they are such, they are a completely different category than mortals, however, so characters can never truly gain insight in their existence.
At least, this is how I understand it. If it works for you, go ahead ;)
or hear directly from the gods...
I'll note that I've got two characters in one of my campaigns who actually receive divine visions (although admittedly they're Blood of Vol and Silver Flame, both powers whose existence isn't in question). I've got no problem with someone getting a vision from Dol Arrah. The thing is that it doesn't actually answer the question of whether the gods exist. You may get a vision from Dol Arrah, setting a quest before you. But is there any way for you to KNOW that it's truly a vision from the GODDESS Dol Arrah, as opposed to a powerful outsider acting in her name? A quori taking advantage of your faith to get you to carry out an action to its advantage? The Draconic Prophecy doing the same thing?
Obviously in your game, you as DM will know the truth - but for the people of Eberron, it's a point that would still be open to debate. The cleric believes that his divine powers prove the existence of his gods; but the skeptic can challenge that assumption.
Personally, though, I also follow the "The Sovereigns exist but on a higher level" approach. The gentle rain is the tears of Arawai, every hurricane the wrath of the Devourer. Dol Dorn and the Mockery are present on EVERY battlefield, even though neither will ever walk the world in corporeal form; they influence the world by guiding the actions of the warriors (passively - that d20 roll represents your favor with the faces of war). And hey, a chosen champion of Dol Dorn could have an angel assist through diving channeling, representing the favor of the Sovereign and the importance of his task... but again, that COULD just be the independent action of the angel itself. It supports the existence of the gods, but there's still room for skeptics within the world.
It is imo certainly plausible to state or game with the notion that Eberroni gods are real...
Absolutely. The key is that there is ROOM for doubt in the world; you can't prove with absolute certainty that they exist. But neither can the skeptic prove with absolute certainty that they do not exist. Thus, it's up to you as DM to decide the truth of the matter... and each PC to decide what he or she believes. So looking to novels, Daine in The Dreaming Dark is a skeptic, whose faith was shattered by the Mourning; while the artificer Lei follows the Sovereign Host. She doesn't ever say "I wonder whether or not the Sovereigns exist"; she was raised to believe in them, and because she doesn't EXPECT them to physically manifest in the world, the fact that they do not plays no role in her faith. Again, she believes that Onatar is present in every forge, that Balinor watches over every hunt. Their influence is subtle, and they will allow misfortune to occur to the faithful; but she believes that they are there, and they could CHOOSE to influence events if they wanted. And then you have Xu'sasar, whose religious beliefs are even stronger than Lei's - but also don't require the gods to manifest (though unlike Lei, she does believe that they can).
Is the Silver Flame just an aspect of Dol Arrah like some Vassels claim? We've established that Outsiders themselves believe in the gods and follow their edicts without having any more proof than mortals, do the coutals, like angels, follow a divinity that is ultimately the same source as the Sovereign of Sun and Sacrifice?
Is the divine source of power channeled by the Blood of vol ultimately tied back to the Keeper whether they know it or not?
Of course if in your interpretation of Eberron the gods are real, have will, and what not... one must also ask how you look at the Doctrine of Universal Sovereignty?
How I look at it? Pretty much covered on my first post in the thread. I feel that they are partially right and partially mistaken - but that there's no way in the world to prove it.
I feel that clerical magic draws on a divine power source.
I believe that the sovereigns ARE, unquestionably, divine power sources. However, this doesn't answer the question of whether they are conscious beings; again, check my first post in this thread for other possibilities.
I believe that the person of sufficient faith can worship his shoe and gain spells, but that this is not because his shoe is a divine power source; rather, his faith is so strong that he has managed to bridge the gap to the closest power source out there - in other words, if the shoe is a travel source, he's probably unwittingly tapped into Kol Korran or the Traveler, and THAT'S your universal sovereignity. If you believe the Sovereigns are conscious and active, then it's a case of the Sovereign choosing to answer the prayers of the misguided shoe-worshipper because the intent is pure even if the method of prayer is flawed. However, this comes back to my initial point that in MY view of the world, you're more likely to find a culture worshipping something that can clearly be seen as some sort of analogue of Kol Korran than worshipping their shoes - because it's easier to gain access to divine power if you're following the easy path to the power source. But the skeptic can still argue that yes, Kol Korran the divine power source apparently exists - but that doesn't mean Kol Korran is a sentient, active, god.
Meanwhile, with all due respect to the doctrine, I, Keith, do not believe that the Sovereigns are the ONLY power source out there. I certainly believe that the Silver Flame is a distinct and separate power source, created by the sacrifice of the Couatl and serving as the force that binds the demon overlords. The Undying Court have become their own divine power source, with no connection to the Sovereigns whatsoever. The followers of the Blood of Vol believe that we all have that spark of divinity within - essentially, the spark the elves combined to create the Undying Court - and that this is a divine power source you can develop over time; the precedent of the Undying Court makes this plausible (and if this is true, this is another possible explanation for the shoe-worshipper).
So I believe that the Doctrine of Universal Sovereignity is based on solid ground - that the reason so many disparate cultures are found worshipping clear variations of the Sovereign Host is because the Sovereigns (and Six) ARE divine power sources, and that many of the wacky mini-cults are actually drawing on a Sovereign source. However, I don't believe that they are the ONLY sources - with the Silver Flame and the Undying Court being two key examples of non-Sovereign sources actually created over the course of the history of Eberron.
But that shouldn't stop a follower of the Host from CLAIMING otherwise; after all, Tira Miron was a follower of Dol Arrah, so clearly the Silver Flame is simply a manifestation of Dol Arrah's light.
Is the divine source of power channeled by the Blood of vol ultimately tied back to the Keeper whether they know it or not?
Just to clarify, I don't know if you were asking me for my personal opinion, or raising the question as a general philosophical question. As a general concept? Sure, they COULD be drawing power from the Keeper. There's no easy way to prove that they aren't. However, I PERSONALLY think that they are onto something with the Divinity Within, following the same premise as the Undying Court.
It is not possible for an individual to gain divine status in Eberron. Divinity can only be gained by collective spirits which embody a particular concept. All of the major Eberron religions function on this concept, even if that fact is obscured in the past or within doctrine.
The Sovereign Host is a faith with strong ties to the draconic religion of Thir. Followers of Thir believe that by dedicating their lives to emulating a Sovereign archetype, they can ascend to take on that role. They believe that the previous dragon to hold that position then ascends further. I feel that this ascension is not immediate, and that the new dragon-spirit merely increases the whole.
The Undying Court is the most obvious example of a collection of souls becoming a source of divine power. Singly, a deathless is not a god, but as a whole they grant miracles and hold back dragon armies.
The Blood of Vol is a hard one to pin down, until you recognize it as a nearly perfect mirror to the Undying Court. Additionally, several of their rituals are explicitly meant to purify the spirits of the participants. At least one of them involves sharing blood, which followers consider to be the source of one's soul.
The Path of Light is made up of a bunch of dream spirits who dwell within the souls of hundreds of kalashtar. Each line is thus merged into a living collective soul.
The Silver Flame was created when the couatl sacrificed themselves to defeat the rakshasa rajahs. Their souls merged into a font of holy power. Since, humans and other mortals have found it possible to join the Silver Flame as well.
My theory goes much deeper than that, including historical evidence and such. But my answer to the OP's question is that, in my campaign, the gods are not fake. They're not quite what people think they are. They're not entities with human characteristics. None of them are going to send avatars, or even take a personal interest in you. But they're not fake either, and you can't just become a god by getting people to worship you. The power for divine spells doesn't come from faith; faith is what draws the power to you. The better established your divine source, the easier it is to draw on that power. It would take a humongous amount of faith to draw power from an unestablished source (rendering the Divine Shoe nearly powerless in my campaign).
The Silver Flame was created when the couatl sacrificed themselves to defeat the rakshasa rajahs. Their souls merged into a font of holy power. Since, humans and other mortals have found it possible to join the Silver Flame as well.
I didn't mention this earlier, but it's certainly part of the core doctrine of the Flame that virtuous spirits merge with the Flame - so yes, even if one accepts the idea that the Flame was born from the sacrifice of the couatl, it is much more than that now.
I meant the comment as a more general open question to everyone in the thread...
Ah, gotcha. As I said, in this case my opinion is just that - it's certainly one of those things that will be left to the DM.
In my DM's campaign, the Undying Court draw divine energy from Irian, so there the clerics would just create more deathless to resume the governing body. Still, the question is up in the air for me. What are your guys' opinion?
The existance of physical beings that can grant divine power (i.e. The Undying Court) also calls into question "What would happen if they were destroyed?
Whether "deities" can be destroyed really depends on what they are. If you do consider some of them effectively uber-powerful outsiders or undead, yes, technically they could be destroyed. However, if they are a manifestation of an idea or a cosmic force, then destroying them would make it necessary to destroy their wellspring, which may indeed prove impossible. On the other hand, you could change that force to a more inert state
Likewise with what happens with their power and those who use it. If the deity directly empowers its servants (clerics or whatever other divine casters use power from it), say if has an at-will uber version of Imbue with Spell Ability, killing or otherwise removing it would remove that power. However, if clerics are rather able to tap directly into a deity's source of power - be it a plane, an abstract idea or a phenomenon, then no, it would not work. Mind you, the second kind of cleric reminds me of another class entirely - the Ardent. As I see it, a cleric utilizes a divine, external force bestowed upon them, and their own powers manifest in how skillfully they can manipulate it and how much endurance they have to hold it. If their OWN belief and mental might is the source of their power, either on its own or by forming a conduit to siphon it, they are stepping into psionic territory.
The existance of physical beings that can grant divine power (i.e. The Undying Court) also calls into question "What would happen if they were destroyed?" ... Would the clerics of the Undying Court cease casting spells?
I don't think it would matter, unless the clerics' faith was shaken in some way. Either the Sovereigns exist, and the clerics were drawing on their power from the start, or divine power is an ambient power and the Court was nothing more than the center of the faith that ultimately allowed the clerics to do what they did.
The most interesting question there would be... if (and I'm stressing if) the Undying Court was defeated and the Aereni Clerics suddenly lost their magic... would the Tarinadal Keepers of the Past whom worship their ancestors who fought in Xen'drik rather than the undying court lose theirs?
Just food for thought I'm not looking for any hard and fast answers... in my own interpretation I'd have the Aereni's faith be shaken and lose their magic only to have the Tairnadal swoop in with their divine powers intact and their warrior ways to 'save the day'... and repell the inevitable dragon attack.... but that's just me.
Secondly, in my home game I stick with the "we really don't know" approach when it comes to Gods and divine powers. I've got a dissilusioned ranger and deserter from Thrane in the party, which makes for something interesting. Radigan is one of two good members in the group (the other is a Paladin of the Path of Light and that's another good story). Though Radigan has lost his faith, so to say, he still does all the little rituals and observations that we all do in our lives, that we are all brought up to do at an unconsciouss level. And from this he draws strength, even though he isn't quite sure if the Silver Flame is "real" or not. The deserter and doubter does good things, but he isn't sure if his gods are real or just constructs to help us explain certain things and comfort us (the dragonborn archaeologist of the group espouses this belief, which leads to some VERY interesting conversations).
And as for the Blood of Vol, I find the possibilities for them endless...
*insert 3vil GM laugh here*
I play mostly to engage in an interesting/fun communal story. Stories that I really enjoy tend to interact with real world issues on some level, usually with enough remove that they don't offend. I find that keeping the "you just don't know" aspect of Eberron is far enough removed from real world religions that it does not lead to out of character arguments about religion at the game table, but still allows certain plots to probe and question the nature of faith.
I would argue that despite any of our philosophies and theologies, as no philosophy or theology can intrinsically prove the existence of god, faith in the end always relies on a certain amount of uncertainty. What makes faith faith is the ability to believe in the existence of something that you can not prove. But this is neither here nor there, nor does it answer your question/help you out with your request.
If I was going to assume that the gods are real in Eberron, I think I would do so by looking at it from the point of view of priests in Eberron. Are the gods real? Yes. Can you find them/speak to them? Yes, but only through prayer and belief. The gods don't walk the earth. They don't have physical forms. The gods are something beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. The names we give them, the physical forms we attribute to their avatars, these are things we require in order to somehow conceptualize the "object" or "person" of our faith. It is an avatar that receives our prayers, and and in effect works as a messenger to the reality of the gods, a reality that mortal kine can never fully grasp. The avatars themselves are not real: they are simply the only way that we (the Ebberonian populace) can conceive a god.
In my game, they are real. They are there. They are all the things that make gods, well, gods. They're not the "as hard as cotton-candy" wimps of 4e that are just essentially player characters in the level 25-30+ range of experience... Sorry, that's not "god" that's uber-powerful (over-powered, IMHO) mortal character. But that's another rant for more appropriate places.
Regardless of following the Sovereign Host, the Silver Flame, the Dark Six (or even if these are considered separate of the Host; some don't separate them; others have them as their own pantheon), Vol, any of the cults of the 'Dragon Below,' or the draconic deities... They're out there in their own divine planes doing whatever it is they do. Yes they DO have direct effect on the world, not just through their believers and what they do, but through influencing and communing with them (via prayers, visions, signs & omens, the usual ways).
That said, I don't have them doing the Faerun "come and meet a god" thing where they're on the world in a physical nearly-mortal form (since you can technically - if you're insanely powerful) attack and banish (not kill outside their own home plane from what I understand) them from the world for a time). I have them active at times in my game where it serves the story and enjoyment of the game, and where it doesn't I just don't bring it up. It IS a game and it's meant to be enjoyed. I am not going to make more of an imaginary world than there absolutely needs to be. We don't need to have scientists claiming they're any better at disproving what faith can not prove (ultimately you have to have faith in science to believe it, don't you?). So just as artifice and arcane magic, or psionics, or whatever else, can not explain or define everything in the world, neither can the churches, divine casters and mystics, or the gods.
The world just is; all things in it are because it is there for them to exist in.
That's how I've chosen to handle it in my game(s). Sure it's a little more "traditional" and less "new age humanist" than what others may choose to do, but that's fine. I'm not them and I'm not running their game. If I play in their game I'll play in that sort of setting... and I'll likely enjoy the game just as well... It's nothing that makes or breaks the game unless someone wants to be a jerk and/or unreasonably hard-lined as to one position or the other - over issues in an imaginary world. To those people, seriously consider some other hobby. There's enough drama like that in the real world, where it matters (and even that's arguable to some people), and it's just not needed in a game of imagination and camaraderie with friends. Besides, even if you do with those arguments, have you really won anything? It's not real, it's like splitting a winning lottery ticket that netted you a grand total of NOTHING.
"Let's see, 10 into nothing is... well... Nothing!" - Jayne Cobb
that's not "god"
'God' is one of those words that the meaning is hard to peg. They are gods, as much as the 'great kami/spirits', Imortals or YHVH....