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New Quori Theory

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mystrich
Oct 13, 2008 22:18:55 Ok, so because we've had quite a few threads about Reidra and the Quori in the past few weeks, I've been thinking about them, and I just came up with this.

For an unknown reason, Sarlona is the only thing that is exempted from the prophesy. The reason being, the Quori were the creators of both. The Quori know every thought to ever be found in the mind's of all dreamers, from this, they formulated "The Draconic Prophesy" at the beginning of time. But for all they knew, they could not predict their change, or what it would cause later in history (specifically, Sarlona).

In this age, the Quori were creatures that wished to spread the minds of individuals so dreams would be even more creative for the otherwise all-knowing-creatures who wanted something new to explore. But, they also, like all Quori in ages before an after, wished to somehow preserve themselves, and felt that if the next age could read their notes, they would be able to end the cycling on the plane where their ancestors failed.

They did this by giving all knowledge to three individuals, powerful dragons named Khyber, Eberron, and Syberis. But, blessed with infinite knowledge, the three came to different conclusions, and instead of causing amazing dreams, it ended in an unfolding nightmare.

Khyber distrusted their sudden burst of knowledge. He said they should abandon it. Syberis felt they should make it unfold through actions only they could perform. The great red dragon Eberron remained neutral. She saw beyond the black and white of the prophesy, and was the only one to truely understand it. Khyber eventually turned on his sister Syberis, and killed her. Eberron knew she had to step in, and bound Khyber.

The bound dragon would not stand for this though. He had amazing powers from the Prophesy, and decided to use it to create "ultimate creatures," the Rajahs and other demons. Syberis was defeated, but her power lingered, and she sent her blessings, the dragons, to fight the demons off, but they were as weakened as their creator and barely withstood the war. Eberron again, saw a different approach, her own "ultimate creatures". These were the lesser races, but also, exactly what the prophesy meant, and in ages to come, they would be blessed by it, marked by dragonmarks, able to understand it better than any dragon or demon, and able to play the roles it gave them.
#2
angryowlbear
Oct 14, 2008 2:09:02 Its an interesting idea, but I can't support anything that designates an 'Ultimate Evil' in Eberron. Your theory essentially raises Quori to a level beyond godhood (ie: imbuing the three world-creators with their power).

I enjoy that Eberron has no bad guy monopoly, but instead a diverse cast of equally opportunistic evils: Quori, Daelkyr, Vol and undeath, Devils and Fiends, Lords of Dust, the Dark Six and a plethora of manipulative and vile human organizations. One cannot aspire to just felling Asmodeus and be done with it. The group you perceive as the most evil depends largely on your point of view which leaves endless storyline and adventure permutations.

On the subject of the Quori: I once had a half-baked homebrew idea in which the Dragons, unquestioned masters of the arcane arts, were dealthy afraid of the Quori and their Inspired. Psionics were completely foreign to them and having developed no resistances or understanding of the magic were afraid that a war could devastate them. Recognizing this power, a fraction of The Chamber had actually become Reidra collaborators and were experimenting with Dragon Quori hosts. Dragons want to continue the Dal Quor flux to further study and appeal to the PCs and their common, dragonmarked blood which might be better equipped to deal with this foreign threat.

It was a poor campaign and would have made a better novel.
#3
mystrich
Oct 14, 2008 13:50:08
Its an interesting idea, but I can't support anything that designates an 'Ultimate Evil' in Eberron. Your theory essentially raises Quori to a level beyond godhood (ie: imbuing the three world-creators with their power).

I never really raised an ultimate evil. Although, the Rajahs are one of a few exceptions to the rules, and are said to be embodiments of evil. My explanation instead just puts them as warriors of Khyber who want the destruction of the prophesy (through destruction of the dragons and anyone else who would gain an understanding of it). Syberis's dragons are parallels to the demons, meant to be unstoppable godly forces, but the weakened state of Syberis hindering them from their true nature.

The Quori aren't so much godlike beings as the fact that they survive centuries and know every though that ever goes through a mind as far as can be imagined. Surviving milenia in their planes, they were just able to order this knowledge to when it would happen and blessed the dragons with it. And by mixing the hundreds of theories of creation from the planes as well as the infinite evocation and conjuration spells, they created a way for the dragons to create life, and ultimate beings at that.
#4
rekko
Oct 14, 2008 16:25:14 This is interesting, let me reflect on that, I'l come back and post my thoughts.

Rekko
#5
smug
Oct 15, 2008 12:59:07 It's an interesting idea. However, I tend to side with AOB. In the past it's been suggested that the progenitors created all of the planes... and that the material plane was the final plane and is essentially at the center of things, which is why mortal creatures are touched by the madness of Xoriat, the dreams of Dal Quor, engage in war (Shavarath) and Peace (Syrania), and so on and so on. I know Hellcow suggested that certain planes more strongly reflect the touch of certain progenitors - among other things, this being why you could find demons both in Shavarath and the Demon Wastes, both being creations of Khyber but spawned on different planes.

Likewise, I don't see the rajahs as the ULTIMATE embodiments of evil; they are simply the ultimate embodiments of evil of the material plane. Meanwhile, il-Lashtavar is the ultimate embodiment of evil on Dal Quor; the daelkyr may or may not be the ultimate powers of Xoriat; and so on. Each plane has its primary spiritual powers, including the material.

Now,if you said that these early Quori gave the knowledge of the Prophecy to AUREON - AKA Ourelonastrix, the dragon who discovered the Prophecy in the Age of Demons - that's a whole different story. The thing for me is that I don't see the Progenitors as being literal dragons. Either they are purely metaphorical, or they created the planes and the worlds... and if it's the latter, they weren't around to be influenced by Quori, because where would they have BEEN? If Eberron *IS* the physical body of the progenitor dragon Eberron, wrapped around Khyber and surrounded by the broken remnants of Siberys... in what way were they ever "dragons" as we think of it? On the other hand, we know that there WAS a dragon named Ourelonastrix who was the first mortal being to discover the Prophecy, so the idea that some force or being pushed him in a particular direction makes perfect sense.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mean to steer you off of your idea.
#6
rekko
Oct 15, 2008 14:30:00 Don't forget that Quori can make you believe what they want and that they are something else, they only need to mess up with your mind.
#7
mystrich
Oct 15, 2008 17:57:19
It's an interesting idea. However, I tend to side with AOB. In the past it's been suggested that the progenitors created all of the planes... and that the material plane was the final plane and is essentially at the center of things, which is why mortal creatures are touched by the madness of Xoriat, the dreams of Dal Quor, engage in war (Shavarath) and Peace (Syrania), and so on and so on. I know Hellcow suggested that certain planes more strongly reflect the touch of certain progenitors - among other things, this being why you could find demons both in Shavarath and the Demon Wastes, both being creations of Khyber but spawned on different planes.

Likewise, I don't see the rajahs as the ULTIMATE embodiments of evil; they are simply the ultimate embodiments of evil of the material plane. Meanwhile, il-Lashtavar is the ultimate embodiment of evil on Dal Quor; the daelkyr may or may not be the ultimate powers of Xoriat; and so on. Each plane has its primary spiritual powers, including the material.

Now,if you said that these early Quori gave the knowledge of the Prophecy to AUREON - AKA Ourelonastrix, the dragon who discovered the Prophecy in the Age of Demons - that's a whole different story. The thing for me is that I don't see the Progenitors as being literal dragons. Either they are purely metaphorical, or they created the planes and the worlds... and if it's the latter, they weren't around to be influenced by Quori, because where would they have BEEN? If Eberron *IS* the physical body of the progenitor dragon Eberron, wrapped around Khyber and surrounded by the broken remnants of Siberys... in what way were they ever "dragons" as we think of it? On the other hand, we know that there WAS a dragon named Ourelonastrix who was the first mortal being to discover the Prophecy, so the idea that some force or being pushed him in a particular direction makes perfect sense.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mean to steer you off of your idea.

I was always under the impression they came from the planes. And the extraplanar demons that work for the Lords of Dusk are said to be demons and devils that were summoned by a foolish wizard and because lost on Eberron, decided that they would affiliate with the most powerful beings to ever exist, the Rajahs (Equiivalent to Divine Rank 5-10, and about CR 50-80), excluding the progneitor wurms (I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too).

Most assume the three Progneitors are real dragons, not metaphors. They are said to be statistically the only creatures stronger than the rajahs. Another point to make is that each plane and it's inhabitants are parallels of creatures on the Material Plane expressed through the plane. The demons on Fernia are actually beings that represent the destructive force of fire. The Daelkyr represent rulership embodied by madness. Il Lavashtar, is of course, the incarnation of a nightmare. The creatures on the material plane are what they are, and so evil on all other planes would actually base itself on the Rajahs and Rakshasas.

Personally, I've never liked the theory that the gods are ascended dragons. They are, in my opinion, divine beings, beyond comprehension of mortals. The Myths only put the dragons because they're is little to deny about the Myth.
#8
Hellcow
Oct 16, 2008 2:58:48
I was always under the impression they came from the planes. And the extraplanar demons that work for the Lords of Dusk are said to be demons and devils that were summoned by a foolish wizard and because lost on Eberron...

Smug is refering to my suggested conversions for the Savage Tide adventure path. Therein, I suggest that Khyber may actually contain demiplanes, and that Demogorgon could be used as a sub-rajah with his own demonic subjects. While I have said that there are beings working with the Lords of Dust who are planar exiles for various reasons, I do feel that you can find Vrocks in the Demon Waste that are spawn of Khyber, not exiles of Shavarath; the motivations and personality of the two will be quite different, as a demon of Shavarath is fundamentally a spirit of WAR, while a demon from Khyber can follow the more traditional "pure evil" path. The rakshasa are supposed to be the most common form of native fiend, but not the only ones.

excluding the progneitor wurms (I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too).

To the best of my knowledge, I never have. To me, the progenitors (assuming you take the legends at face value) are truly beyond any sort of stats. Eberron is the PLANET - there's simply no fighting that, any more than Cuchulainn could fight the sea. And the progenitors do not actively affect the world in any way we can perceive; if Eberron shapes the world, she does so through the creation of life, the sowing of dragonmarks and prophecy marks, and such. There's no point to setting stats to that.

Now, in my opinion, the Sovereigns are a step down from the Progenitors. Per the draconic religion of Thir, the Sovereigns created reality, including the dragons; the greatest of the dragons than became the Sovereigns. Before the Progenitors, there were no demons, dragons, or for that matter planes. You could keep the Sovereigns as distant and mysterious as the Progenitors, or you could choose to stat them if you wanted; but they are supposed to be the second tier of divinity, with myths told of their actions IN Eberron. Even if you discount the beliefs of Thir, the giants claim that Ouralon taught them magic, which is the manipulation of the energies of Khyber and Siberys; so it's back to Progenitors as the truly primal forces, and demon overlords and Sovereigns as the next stage of divinity.

Though as Smug says, no reason this should stop you from taking a different path in your campaign.

Most assume the three Progneitors are real dragons, not metaphors.

When you say "Most", do you mean players, or people on Eberron? I'd say that it's actually iffy how many people in the Five Nations believe in the literal truth of the Progenitor myth - many do, but I'm not sure I'd commit to most. I'd say that cynicism is on the rise in the modern age. But even those who do see it literally aren't going to consider the Progenitors to be dragons as WE think of dragons; they predate everything. Eberron is THE WORLD. Whether she was once some form of animate being, she's now become earth and stone; the "Heart of Siberys" is a big chunk of crystal. So many may believe that these beings were once the godlike entities refered to as "Progenitor Wyrms" - but you'd never have a discussion along the lines of "Was Siberys a silver dragon or a gold dragon?", because if you take the stories at face value, he was a cosmic entity beyond any simple mortal form. Note that the Sovereigns do actually have mortal dragon forms associated with them (Aureon as a blue dragon, Dol Dorn silver, etc), while we've never made such associations with the Progenitors.

Another point to make is that each plane and it's inhabitants are parallels of creatures on the Material Plane expressed through the plane.

Not exactly. You're absolutely right in saying "The demons on Fernia are actually beings that represent the destructive force of fire." But this doesn't make them parallels of creatures on Eberron; rather it makes them more iconic, idealized versions of concepts found in the material plane. Fernia is the pure, isolated concept of fire. Shavarath is the pure, isolated concept of war. The material plane is where all of these isolated concepts come together, where creatures are touched by madness and inspiration, life and death, light and dark, and so on. Per the classic creation myth, the Progenitors did create the planes first, and the material was created from their final struggle - so they didn't base the planes off of the material, but rather built the material from the concepts explored in the planes.

Personally, I've never liked the theory that the gods are ascended dragons.

And it's something that is going to remain a theory. Those who like it are welcome to run with it. The dragons believe it. But mysterious and distant gods are certainly a central aspect of Eberron, and will remain as such.
#9
bailey91
Oct 16, 2008 22:57:48 One of my DMs made a theory as to why Sarlona is exempt from the Prophesy.

He believed the continent of Sarlona wouldn't be part of the Prophesy because it wasn't part of Eberron. He figured that since it gets no dragonshards (just a few Khyber ones, I think) and it has so much planar activity about it, it must be formed literally of the planes. I think what he meant was like that Sarlona wasn't originally part of Eberron, but a result of so many planar influences on the world. It's just a little theory, but he couldn't explain why couatls came from there.
#10
Hellcow
Oct 17, 2008 0:11:42 I'll just note that I'm all for DMs developing new ideas and approaches to the setting. If I refer to canon material, that's an approach - but it's always interesting to explore new ideas. So please don't let my interjection derail the discussion. I was just responding to "I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too"... when, in fact, I haven't.
#11
mystrich
Oct 17, 2008 11:13:12
"I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too"... when, in fact, I haven't.
Reply With Quote

Sorry, I thought you had, or at least their equivalent divine rank, much like the Rajahs.
#12
Hellcow
Oct 17, 2008 13:09:15
Sorry, I thought you had, or at least their equivalent divine rank, much like the Rajahs.

I understand - honest mistake. But no, in my opinion the Overlords are the only beings with the equivalent of divine rank that you'll find on Eberron. I think it's possible that such entities may exist on other planes. I mentioned the fact that some of the mightiest of the daelkyr might have divine rank, though lower than that of the rajahs (I think I suggested 0-1). I could see giving the Devourer of Dreams a measure of divine rank while in Dal Quor (though this would not carry over to his vessel in Eberron; it's a matter of being able to full draw on the power of il-Lashtavar. Meanwhile, I'd put il-Lashtavar in the same class as Eberron or Khyber; I wouldn't stat it at all, because it's not something you can interact with. Il-Lashtavar IS Dal Quor; it's the spirit of the plane itself. It affects the worlds by spawning its children. It may offer guidance - but you're never going to be in a situation where you can hit it, any more than you could kill the Earth by smacking the soil.
#13
mystrich
Oct 17, 2008 13:25:36
It may offer guidance - but you're never going to be in a situation where you can hit it, any more than you could kill the Earth by smacking the soil.

I think I remember stats for a living plane once. I have no idea what book (Epic Level Handbook?)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mystrich Oct 13, 2008 22:18:55	Ok, so because we've had quite a few threads about Reidra and the Quori in the past few weeks, I've been thinking about them, and I just came up with this. For an unknown reason, Sarlona is the only thing that is exempted from the prophesy. The reason being, the Quori were the creators of both. The Quori know every thought to ever be found in the mind's of all dreamers, from this, they formulated "The Draconic Prophesy" at the beginning of time. But for all they knew, they could not predict their change, or what it would cause later in history (specifically, Sarlona). In this age, the Quori were creatures that wished to spread the minds of individuals so dreams would be even more creative for the otherwise all-knowing-creatures who wanted something new to explore. But, they also, like all Quori in ages before an after, wished to somehow preserve themselves, and felt that if the next age could read their notes, they would be able to end the cycling on the plane where their ancestors failed. They did this by giving all knowledge to three individuals, powerful dragons named Khyber, Eberron, and Syberis. But, blessed with infinite knowledge, the three came to different conclusions, and instead of causing amazing dreams, it ended in an unfolding nightmare. Khyber distrusted their sudden burst of knowledge. He said they should abandon it. Syberis felt they should make it unfold through actions only they could perform. The great red dragon Eberron remained neutral. She saw beyond the black and white of the prophesy, and was the only one to truely understand it. Khyber eventually turned on his sister Syberis, and killed her. Eberron knew she had to step in, and bound Khyber. The bound dragon would not stand for this though. He had amazing powers from the Prophesy, and decided to use it to create "ultimate creatures," the Rajahs and other demons. Syberis was defeated, but her power lingered, and she sent her blessings, the dragons, to fight the demons off, but they were as weakened as their creator and barely withstood the war. Eberron again, saw a different approach, her own "ultimate creatures". These were the lesser races, but also, exactly what the prophesy meant, and in ages to come, they would be blessed by it, marked by dragonmarks, able to understand it better than any dragon or demon, and able to play the roles it gave them.
#2 angryowlbear Oct 14, 2008 2:09:02	Its an interesting idea, but I can't support anything that designates an 'Ultimate Evil' in Eberron. Your theory essentially raises Quori to a level beyond godhood (ie: imbuing the three world-creators with their power). I enjoy that Eberron has no bad guy monopoly, but instead a diverse cast of equally opportunistic evils: Quori, Daelkyr, Vol and undeath, Devils and Fiends, Lords of Dust, the Dark Six and a plethora of manipulative and vile human organizations. One cannot aspire to just felling Asmodeus and be done with it. The group you perceive as the most evil depends largely on your point of view which leaves endless storyline and adventure permutations. On the subject of the Quori: I once had a half-baked homebrew idea in which the Dragons, unquestioned masters of the arcane arts, were dealthy afraid of the Quori and their Inspired. Psionics were completely foreign to them and having developed no resistances or understanding of the magic were afraid that a war could devastate them. Recognizing this power, a fraction of The Chamber had actually become Reidra collaborators and were experimenting with Dragon Quori hosts. Dragons want to continue the Dal Quor flux to further study and appeal to the PCs and their common, dragonmarked blood which might be better equipped to deal with this foreign threat. It was a poor campaign and would have made a better novel.
#3 mystrich Oct 14, 2008 13:50:08	Its an interesting idea, but I can't support anything that designates an 'Ultimate Evil' in Eberron. Your theory essentially raises Quori to a level beyond godhood (ie: imbuing the three world-creators with their power). I never really raised an ultimate evil. Although, the Rajahs are one of a few exceptions to the rules, and are said to be embodiments of evil. My explanation instead just puts them as warriors of Khyber who want the destruction of the prophesy (through destruction of the dragons and anyone else who would gain an understanding of it). Syberis's dragons are parallels to the demons, meant to be unstoppable godly forces, but the weakened state of Syberis hindering them from their true nature. The Quori aren't so much godlike beings as the fact that they survive centuries and know every though that ever goes through a mind as far as can be imagined. Surviving milenia in their planes, they were just able to order this knowledge to when it would happen and blessed the dragons with it. And by mixing the hundreds of theories of creation from the planes as well as the infinite evocation and conjuration spells, they created a way for the dragons to create life, and ultimate beings at that.
#4 rekko Oct 14, 2008 16:25:14	This is interesting, let me reflect on that, I'l come back and post my thoughts. Rekko
#5 smug Oct 15, 2008 12:59:07	It's an interesting idea. However, I tend to side with AOB. In the past it's been suggested that the progenitors created all of the planes... and that the material plane was the final plane and is essentially at the center of things, which is why mortal creatures are touched by the madness of Xoriat, the dreams of Dal Quor, engage in war (Shavarath) and Peace (Syrania), and so on and so on. I know Hellcow suggested that certain planes more strongly reflect the touch of certain progenitors - among other things, this being why you could find demons both in Shavarath and the Demon Wastes, both being creations of Khyber but spawned on different planes. Likewise, I don't see the rajahs as the ULTIMATE embodiments of evil; they are simply the ultimate embodiments of evil of the material plane. Meanwhile, il-Lashtavar is the ultimate embodiment of evil on Dal Quor; the daelkyr may or may not be the ultimate powers of Xoriat; and so on. Each plane has its primary spiritual powers, including the material. Now,if you said that these early Quori gave the knowledge of the Prophecy to AUREON - AKA Ourelonastrix, the dragon who discovered the Prophecy in the Age of Demons - that's a whole different story. The thing for me is that I don't see the Progenitors as being literal dragons. Either they are purely metaphorical, or they created the planes and the worlds... and if it's the latter, they weren't around to be influenced by Quori, because where would they have BEEN? If Eberron IS the physical body of the progenitor dragon Eberron, wrapped around Khyber and surrounded by the broken remnants of Siberys... in what way were they ever "dragons" as we think of it? On the other hand, we know that there WAS a dragon named Ourelonastrix who was the first mortal being to discover the Prophecy, so the idea that some force or being pushed him in a particular direction makes perfect sense. But that's just my opinion. I don't mean to steer you off of your idea.
#6 rekko Oct 15, 2008 14:30:00	Don't forget that Quori can make you believe what they want and that they are something else, they only need to mess up with your mind.
#7 mystrich Oct 15, 2008 17:57:19	It's an interesting idea. However, I tend to side with AOB. In the past it's been suggested that the progenitors created all of the planes... and that the material plane was the final plane and is essentially at the center of things, which is why mortal creatures are touched by the madness of Xoriat, the dreams of Dal Quor, engage in war (Shavarath) and Peace (Syrania), and so on and so on. I know Hellcow suggested that certain planes more strongly reflect the touch of certain progenitors - among other things, this being why you could find demons both in Shavarath and the Demon Wastes, both being creations of Khyber but spawned on different planes. Likewise, I don't see the rajahs as the ULTIMATE embodiments of evil; they are simply the ultimate embodiments of evil of the material plane. Meanwhile, il-Lashtavar is the ultimate embodiment of evil on Dal Quor; the daelkyr may or may not be the ultimate powers of Xoriat; and so on. Each plane has its primary spiritual powers, including the material. Now,if you said that these early Quori gave the knowledge of the Prophecy to AUREON - AKA Ourelonastrix, the dragon who discovered the Prophecy in the Age of Demons - that's a whole different story. The thing for me is that I don't see the Progenitors as being literal dragons. Either they are purely metaphorical, or they created the planes and the worlds... and if it's the latter, they weren't around to be influenced by Quori, because where would they have BEEN? If Eberron IS the physical body of the progenitor dragon Eberron, wrapped around Khyber and surrounded by the broken remnants of Siberys... in what way were they ever "dragons" as we think of it? On the other hand, we know that there WAS a dragon named Ourelonastrix who was the first mortal being to discover the Prophecy, so the idea that some force or being pushed him in a particular direction makes perfect sense. But that's just my opinion. I don't mean to steer you off of your idea. I was always under the impression they came from the planes. And the extraplanar demons that work for the Lords of Dusk are said to be demons and devils that were summoned by a foolish wizard and because lost on Eberron, decided that they would affiliate with the most powerful beings to ever exist, the Rajahs (Equiivalent to Divine Rank 5-10, and about CR 50-80), excluding the progneitor wurms (I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too). Most assume the three Progneitors are real dragons, not metaphors. They are said to be statistically the only creatures stronger than the rajahs. Another point to make is that each plane and it's inhabitants are parallels of creatures on the Material Plane expressed through the plane. The demons on Fernia are actually beings that represent the destructive force of fire. The Daelkyr represent rulership embodied by madness. Il Lavashtar, is of course, the incarnation of a nightmare. The creatures on the material plane are what they are, and so evil on all other planes would actually base itself on the Rajahs and Rakshasas. Personally, I've never liked the theory that the gods are ascended dragons. They are, in my opinion, divine beings, beyond comprehension of mortals. The Myths only put the dragons because they're is little to deny about the Myth.
#8 Hellcow Oct 16, 2008 2:58:48	I was always under the impression they came from the planes. And the extraplanar demons that work for the Lords of Dusk are said to be demons and devils that were summoned by a foolish wizard and because lost on Eberron... Smug is refering to my suggested conversions for the Savage Tide adventure path. Therein, I suggest that Khyber may actually contain demiplanes, and that Demogorgon could be used as a sub-rajah with his own demonic subjects. While I have said that there are beings working with the Lords of Dust who are planar exiles for various reasons, I do feel that you can find Vrocks in the Demon Waste that are spawn of Khyber, not exiles of Shavarath; the motivations and personality of the two will be quite different, as a demon of Shavarath is fundamentally a spirit of WAR, while a demon from Khyber can follow the more traditional "pure evil" path. The rakshasa are supposed to be the most common form of native fiend, but not the only ones. excluding the progneitor wurms (I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too). To the best of my knowledge, I never have. To me, the progenitors (assuming you take the legends at face value) are truly beyond any sort of stats. Eberron is the PLANET - there's simply no fighting that, any more than Cuchulainn could fight the sea. And the progenitors do not actively affect the world in any way we can perceive; if Eberron shapes the world, she does so through the creation of life, the sowing of dragonmarks and prophecy marks, and such. There's no point to setting stats to that. Now, in my opinion, the Sovereigns are a step down from the Progenitors. Per the draconic religion of Thir, the Sovereigns created reality, including the dragons; the greatest of the dragons than became the Sovereigns. Before the Progenitors, there were no demons, dragons, or for that matter planes. You could keep the Sovereigns as distant and mysterious as the Progenitors, or you could choose to stat them if you wanted; but they are supposed to be the second tier of divinity, with myths told of their actions IN Eberron. Even if you discount the beliefs of Thir, the giants claim that Ouralon taught them magic, which is the manipulation of the energies of Khyber and Siberys; so it's back to Progenitors as the truly primal forces, and demon overlords and Sovereigns as the next stage of divinity. Though as Smug says, no reason this should stop you from taking a different path in your campaign. Most assume the three Progneitors are real dragons, not metaphors. When you say "Most", do you mean players, or people on Eberron? I'd say that it's actually iffy how many people in the Five Nations believe in the literal truth of the Progenitor myth - many do, but I'm not sure I'd commit to most. I'd say that cynicism is on the rise in the modern age. But even those who do see it literally aren't going to consider the Progenitors to be dragons as WE think of dragons; they predate everything. Eberron is THE WORLD. Whether she was once some form of animate being, she's now become earth and stone; the "Heart of Siberys" is a big chunk of crystal. So many may believe that these beings were once the godlike entities refered to as "Progenitor Wyrms" - but you'd never have a discussion along the lines of "Was Siberys a silver dragon or a gold dragon?", because if you take the stories at face value, he was a cosmic entity beyond any simple mortal form. Note that the Sovereigns do actually have mortal dragon forms associated with them (Aureon as a blue dragon, Dol Dorn silver, etc), while we've never made such associations with the Progenitors. Another point to make is that each plane and it's inhabitants are parallels of creatures on the Material Plane expressed through the plane. Not exactly. You're absolutely right in saying "The demons on Fernia are actually beings that represent the destructive force of fire." But this doesn't make them parallels of creatures on Eberron; rather it makes them more iconic, idealized versions of concepts found in the material plane. Fernia is the pure, isolated concept of fire. Shavarath is the pure, isolated concept of war. The material plane is where all of these isolated concepts come together, where creatures are touched by madness and inspiration, life and death, light and dark, and so on. Per the classic creation myth, the Progenitors did create the planes first, and the material was created from their final struggle - so they didn't base the planes off of the material, but rather built the material from the concepts explored in the planes. Personally, I've never liked the theory that the gods are ascended dragons. And it's something that is going to remain a theory. Those who like it are welcome to run with it. The dragons believe it. But mysterious and distant gods are certainly a central aspect of Eberron, and will remain as such.
#9 bailey91 Oct 16, 2008 22:57:48	One of my DMs made a theory as to why Sarlona is exempt from the Prophesy. He believed the continent of Sarlona wouldn't be part of the Prophesy because it wasn't part of Eberron. He figured that since it gets no dragonshards (just a few Khyber ones, I think) and it has so much planar activity about it, it must be formed literally of the planes. I think what he meant was like that Sarlona wasn't originally part of Eberron, but a result of so many planar influences on the world. It's just a little theory, but he couldn't explain why couatls came from there.
#10 Hellcow Oct 17, 2008 0:11:42	I'll just note that I'm all for DMs developing new ideas and approaches to the setting. If I refer to canon material, that's an approach - but it's always interesting to explore new ideas. So please don't let my interjection derail the discussion. I was just responding to "I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too"... when, in fact, I haven't.
#11 mystrich Oct 17, 2008 11:13:12	"I forget their divine rank, but Keith Baker has given it too"... when, in fact, I haven't. Reply With Quote Sorry, I thought you had, or at least their equivalent divine rank, much like the Rajahs.
#12 Hellcow Oct 17, 2008 13:09:15	Sorry, I thought you had, or at least their equivalent divine rank, much like the Rajahs. I understand - honest mistake. But no, in my opinion the Overlords are the only beings with the equivalent of divine rank that you'll find on Eberron. I think it's possible that such entities may exist on other planes. I mentioned the fact that some of the mightiest of the daelkyr might have divine rank, though lower than that of the rajahs (I think I suggested 0-1). I could see giving the Devourer of Dreams a measure of divine rank while in Dal Quor (though this would not carry over to his vessel in Eberron; it's a matter of being able to full draw on the power of il-Lashtavar. Meanwhile, I'd put il-Lashtavar in the same class as Eberron or Khyber; I wouldn't stat it at all, because it's not something you can interact with. Il-Lashtavar IS Dal Quor; it's the spirit of the plane itself. It affects the worlds by spawning its children. It may offer guidance - but you're never going to be in a situation where you can hit it, any more than you could kill the Earth by smacking the soil.
#13 mystrich Oct 17, 2008 13:25:36	It may offer guidance - but you're never going to be in a situation where you can hit it, any more than you could kill the Earth by smacking the soil. I think I remember stats for a living plane once. I have no idea what book (Epic Level Handbook?)