Now, keep that in mind as I propose the following, JUST FOR FUN. We're the Eberron nerds here, after all, and we ought to have some reward for reading all of those 3e books over and over again. So let's find all the discrepancies between the backgrounds of the two editions of eberron! You know you want to.
Of course, these discrepancies may actually be that this is a player's guide and the facts have been altered for "player knowledge." to that I say: who cares, this is still fun.
I'll start with the only one I can remember off the top of my head:
EPG, p125 "...Argonth is one of two mobile citadels built during the Last War, and it is the only one to have survived."
A clear reference to the catastrophe in the passes leading into Darguun. However:
ECS, p149 "...the great forges crafted various types of warforged, powerful vehicles, and the wondrous moving cities. Of these latter creations, only two remain active to the current day. The most famous of these is Argonth, the mobile fortress."
In 3e, there was a second, less public mobile fortress actively in use by Breland. Could be that the entire floating city is somehow top secret information, but as I said, this is nitpicking for fun.
FOR FUN. If it is not fun for you, no one is making you read this thread at gunpoint. At least I hope not. Type something in code and we'll send help.
As for nitpicking: Eladrin dominate house Phiarlin side-by-side with Elves.
But then this is for fun. Personally, I was happy with the way eladrin were handled, it was exactly how I thought it should be done, with the brilliant edition of making the cities permanently anchored to eberron by the mourning.
Another nitpick: Orcs speak Goblin. Doesn't make any sense. They were totally different cultures and never met before the Dhakaani Empire expanded westwards.
*sigh* Warforged are not robots and they could no more take off their arm and plug it back on than anyone else. Components always go into or over their existing limbs. If a warforged in 3rd lost its arm it would need regeneration to get it back just like anyone else.
Warforged are not robots.
Warforged are not robots.
Warforged are not robots.
Why is this so hard to get?
Another nitpick: Orcs speak Goblin. Doesn't make any sense. They were totally different cultures and never met before the Dhakaani Empire expanded westwards.
Actually, I pushed for this change. As it is, orcs in 4E speak Giant. That didn't make any sense to me. The Dhakaani empire was the dominant culture of the past, and while the Orcs had developed a culture before they met the goblins, the two existed side by side for some time. Essentially, my thought is that Goblin was the Common tongue of Khorvaire before humans showed up, and the Orcs ended up adopting it... just as many now speak Common today. Giant, meanwhile, is something I'd prefer to limit to Xen'drik and to cultures that had direct contact with the giants of Xen'drik.
The other option would have been to add the Orc language back into 4E, but 4E intentionally tried to reduced the number of languages, and I'm OK with that. So given the choice between orcs speaking Goblin and orcs speaking Giant, I prefer Goblin as being the "other" Common of Khorvaire.
"A warforged can modify its body, adding and removing limbs as necessary." EPG 4th page 33.
*sigh* Warforged are not robots and they could no more take off their arm and plug it back on than anyone else. Components always go into or over their existing limbs. If a warforged in 3rd lost its arm it would need regeneration to get it back just like anyone else.
Warforged are not robots.
Warforged are not robots.
Warforged are not robots.
Why is this so hard to get?
From the Sarrash thread...RAWT?:P (Robots as Wishful Thinking)
Actually, I pushed for this change. As it is, orcs in 4E speak Giant. That didn't make any sense to me. The Dhakaani empire was the dominant culture of the past, and while the Orcs had developed a culture before they met the goblins, the two existed side by side for some time. Essentially, my thought is that Goblin was the Common tongue of Khorvaire before humans showed up, and the Orcs ended up adopting it... just as many now speak Common today. Giant, meanwhile, is something I'd prefer to limit to Xen'drik and to cultures that had direct contact with the giants of Xen'drik.
The other option would have been to add the Orc language back into 4E, but 4E intentionally tried to reduced the number of languages, and I'm OK with that. So given the choice between orcs speaking Goblin and orcs speaking Giant, I prefer Goblin as being the "other" Common of Khorvaire.
This was one of our houserules in 3E Eberron for similar reasons to those cited above. We had trimmed the fat in regard to languages, long ago. Likewise, our Drow spoke Giant (probably a common houseruling) and Elven, so we were in the same ballpark as 4E in that regard, as well. I can understand how 40,000+ years might justify removing Elven. The same could've been said for Giant, however. In the end, it doesn't really matter. I'm happy with it as is.
I'm a little disappointed that Quor is no longer an automatic language for Kalashtar. I don't see why it should be relegated/elevated (depending upon your viewpoint) to a "scholarly tongue". A Kalashtar shares his body and soul with a Quori spirit (the diffused nature of this union hardly matters, in my mind). I think Quori should be automatic. Perhaps the authors/devs felt the Kalashtar were powerful enough without a bonus language? Again, it's not a big deal, and easily houseruled should we come to a consensus.
I think the second mobile fortress is on loan to the Dark Lanterns or something.
I, too, immediately noticed the discrepancy in the number of these fortresses. It kind of irked me.
Your line of thought makes sense, though, in light of the "what would your average PC know" approach the book takes. I won't be surprised at all if the ECG puts the number at three.
Still, how secret can one keep a mobile fortress? I don't care where it's deployed, this thing's going to spread rumor. It seems like this would've been hard to conceal. At the very least, I'd think that it wouldn't have been much of a secret at the time of it's advent. These things were likely a point of Brelish pride in their early days. I don't recall what written lore says on this, though. If it was originally common knowledge that three were in active service, this makes the EPG's take either a) a mistake/oversight; b) a retcon, however small; or c) half-baked.
Nived already mentioned that one, though.Another that really bothered me is the treatment of the Aereni. In the text, they are seemingly portrayed as necromancers. That's fine, right? Afterall, they do raise dead. I'm being picky about semantics, no?
Wrong. This atrocity (:P ) made it's way into the crunch, as well. The Aerenal Half-Life feat grants bonuses when using Necrotic powers. WTF?!
The Aereni hate negatively uncharged undead in 3E Eberron. The Deathguard is dedicated to destroying "negatively charged undead and the necromancers who create them". So, why the change? Don't tell me necrotic energy doesn't equate to negative energy, because it's clearly 4E's iteration of negative energy. Particularly in this case, I'd say the two are parallel.
I can only attribute this change in the Aereni to the following: 1) a terrible and unneeded retcon; or 2) a complete misunderstanding of the Aereni on the authors'/devs' part.
I, for one, will be changing the Aerenal Half-Life feat (and any similar to it) to radiant-focused feats. This is much more in line, in my opinion, with the positively charged Undying and their Irian-based origin. Irian is the "Eternal Day", last I heard. I don't anticipate this changing with the ECG. The EPG's Aereni seem to be confused, drawing power from Mabar.
No illustrations of the unique weapons.
Talenta Warrior in the table, Talenta Weapons Training in the text.
No cool Valenar double-scimitar/riding feat (ala Bladebearer of the Valenar in RoE - Drow and Halflings get theirs...)
All nits, got plenty of material to fill in the holes from the 3bberon and other 4e materials.
Actually, I pushed for this change. As it is, orcs in 4E speak Giant. That didn't make any sense to me. The Dhakaani empire was the dominant culture of the past, and while the Orcs had developed a culture before they met the goblins, the two existed side by side for some time. Essentially, my thought is that Goblin was the Common tongue of Khorvaire before humans showed up, and the Orcs ended up adopting it... just as many now speak Common today. Giant, meanwhile, is something I'd prefer to limit to Xen'drik and to cultures that had direct contact with the giants of Xen'drik.
The other option would have been to add the Orc language back into 4E, but 4E intentionally tried to reduced the number of languages, and I'm OK with that. So given the choice between orcs speaking Goblin and orcs speaking Giant, I prefer Goblin as being the "other" Common of Khorvaire.
Curious, was Deep Speech ever an option for Orcs? I play the Shadow Marches pretty close to Deliverance (the weirdos are in plain view) and I thought the close connections to the Dragon Below would make the language rather dominant.
Also, what about Talenta Halflings?
I'm a little disappointed that Quor is no longer an automatic language for Kalashtar. I don't see why it should be relegated/elevated (depending upon your viewpoint) to a "scholarly tongue". A Kalashtar shares his body and soul with a Quori spirit (the diffused nature of this union hardly matters, in my mind). I think Quori should be automatic. Perhaps the authors/devs felt the Kalashtar were powerful enough without a bonus language?
I wasn't involved in this decision. However, I'd note two things. First, kalashtar get telepathy, which makes knowledge of languages almost irrelevant from a cultural perspective. Second, the diffused nature of the union is INCREDIBLY important to me. A kalashtar does not have access to all the memories of its quori spirit, nor can it communicate directly with it. The Inspired have this direct connection and gain huge skill bonuses as a result of it, because the knowledge of the spirit is added to their skills. The kalashtar do not, because the quori is a passive and distant force. it touches them and influences them, but in a dreamlike way - and I'd say that the manner in which it communicates with them is far more in line with use of telepathy than speaking to them in Quor.
So I have no doubt that the elders of Adar have preserved the Quor language and written texts in it describing the history of their people. I can see a kalashtar with close ties to Adar learning the tongue. But taking my 3E kalashtar wilder, who was an orphan raised among humans, I see no reason that he'd be able to speak Quor innately. If I'd CHOSEN to acquire it, I could easily justify it as "something that came to me, as if in a dream". But again, since quori are telepathic and can communicate without language, I see no need for kalashtar to automatically know quor; telepathy is a much better way of reflecting their innate tie to the quori spirit.
YMMV, of course.
Curious, was Deep Speech ever an option for Orcs? I play the Shadow Marches pretty close to Deliverance (the weirdos are in plain view) and I thought the close connections to the Dragon Below would make the language rather dominant.
The Shadow Marches are fairly evenly split between the Dragon Below and the Gatekeepers, who probably think that every time you speak a word of Deep Speech, you poison the air around you. So I certainly wouldn't make it their natural tongue, but it's a logical thing to give to Dragon Below cultists (after all, you can give NPCs whatever you want).
Another that really bothered me is the treatment of the Aereni. In the text, they are seemingly portrayed as necromancers. That's fine, right? Afterall, they do raise dead. I'm being picky about semantics, no?
A little. The Aereni have always been gifted necromancers. The original version of the Aereni Half-Life feat gave you a +1 caster level when using necromancy spells. The Aereni despise negative undead, but they understand all forms of necromancy. Aerenal includes powerful connections to both Irian and Mabar, and the line of Vol were Aereni elves and gifted negative-energy necromancers.
With that semantic point settled, however, I agree with you. The Aereni do despise the use of negative energy, which would equate to necrotic energy in 4E. As such, it would make more sense for the Aereni Half-Life ritual to provide a bonus to radiant powers. I expect this is the result of someone looking at the original feat, seeing "necromancy", and failing to understand that the Aereni are masters of positive necromancy as well as understanding the darker paths.
Actually, I pushed for this change. As it is, orcs in 4E speak Giant. That didn't make any sense to me. The Dhakaani empire was the dominant culture of the past, and while the Orcs had developed a culture before they met the goblins, the two existed side by side for some time. Essentially, my thought is that Goblin was the Common tongue of Khorvaire before humans showed up, and the Orcs ended up adopting it... just as many now speak Common today. Giant, meanwhile, is something I'd prefer to limit to Xen'drik and to cultures that had direct contact with the giants of Xen'drik.
The other option would have been to add the Orc language back into 4E, but 4E intentionally tried to reduced the number of languages, and I'm OK with that. So given the choice between orcs speaking Goblin and orcs speaking Giant, I prefer Goblin as being the "other" Common of Khorvaire.
In this light it makes a certain kind of sense. But I still can't accept it. Goblin may have been the other common at the time of the empire, but they didn't conquer the orc realms. There is no reason why the orcs should start talking Goblin among their own kind, especially if their cultures are as different as they are.
Also, I think removing languages from Eberron is a bad idea. The setting is language-starved as it is in 3.5. There is no point in taking the Master Linguist feat from Races of Eberron for example, since you run out of languages to learn before you run out of levels.
I see the reason for making elves talk Giant, too. But they did came from Thelanis, right? As slaves, wouldn't it be logical that they tried to retain their own language in secret? The modern elven could be very well an amalgam of fey and giant languages.
I, for one, will be changing the Aerenal Half-Life feat (and any similar to it) to radiant-focused feats. This is much more in line, in my opinion, with the positively charged Undying and their Irian-based origin. Irian is the "Eternal Day", last I heard. I don't anticipate this changing with the ECG. The EPG's Aereni seem to be confused, drawing power from Mabar.
Bear in mind that this is probably due to intent to synergize with official necromancy powers (as presented in Dragon 372), which mostly have the Necrotic keyword. It would be terribly confusing for people if a feat that is obviously meant to represent the Aereni's skill with necromancy had no apparent synergy with the actual practices thereof. To properly represent it, you'd have to find some way of saying that Aereni treat necromancy spells as having the Radiant keyword instead of the Necrotic... but then you have the problem that there is no 'necromancy' keyword, and not all necrotic spells are necromancy...
I see the reason for making elves talk Giant, too. But they did came from Thelanis, right? As slaves, wouldn't it be logical that they tried to retain their own language in secret? The modern elven could be very well an amalgam of fey and giant languages.
Slaves rarely maintain there own language, historically speaking. Think about African Americans. Greek slaves under the Romans would be a counterpoint, but in that case the slaves were often retained precisely because of their perceived cultural abilities, and many Romans spoke Greek themselves.
I can also totally see Orcs adopting Goblin as a language, even when they were unconquered by Dakaan. It was the preeminent language of the continent for millennia. The elder Orcs interested interested in retaining their culture already had a secret language to preserve it in, namely, Druidic. Mostly I'm just glad gnomes no longer use the dwarven alphabet. Despite their close cultural connections, it never seemed believable that the gnomes, with a culture predicated upon writing and the preservation of knowledge (as demonstrated by their dragonmark, scribing), would either never have developed their own alphabet or discard it for that of a people over a thousand miles from their homeland. Possible, but not believable.
EPG p124: "Arcanix: A small yet vitally important village, Arcanix sits on the shores of Lake Galifar. The people work to meet the needs of the wizards who dwell in the three great towers that float in the air above the village."
FN p38 names the four towers of the Arvane Congress in Arcanix, Glarehold, Amberwall, Nocturnas, and Skyreach. Unless one of them permanently floated away (always possible), this is another oversight.
I'm also almost positive I read in some book that the academy recently reopened to non-Karrns, but I don't feel like rereading all of Forge of War, despite how much fun this nitpicking has been. Anybody remember what I'm referring to?
Another minor error:
EPG p124: "Arcanix: A small yet vitally important village, Arcanix sits on the shores of Lake Galifar. The people work to meet the needs of the wizards who dwell in the three great towers that float in the air above the village."
FN p38 names the four towers of the Arvane Congress in Arcanix, Glarehold, Amberwall, Nocturnas, and Skyreach. Unless one of them permanently floated away (always possible), this is another oversight.
Aye. I'd spotted this one, too, but for some reason I'd got the impression that there were originally supposed to have been five towers. When I'd written my version of Arcanix (before Five Nations was released), I'd established them as having specializations according to dragon colors:
- Black/Bronze - necromancy, fundamental metaphysics
- Green/Copper - biology, healing, transmutation, and related life sciences
- Blue/Brass - 'hard' sciences, constructs, clockworks and whatnot
- Red/Gold - military and political sciences, including large-scale war magics
- White/Silver - psychology, scrying, and other 'mental' sciences
Reducing them to three plays some hob with this model, but, eh... I already have my own notes on the subject. ;)
—Siran Dunmorgan
Another error comes in the Karrnath entry, pp128-9. The Rekkenmark Academy "...was forced to close during the war," and has only recently reopened. The entry in five nations on the Order of Rekkenmark pp106-9 clearly indicate that the academy never closed, as "The vast majority of warlords and officers in the various Karrnathi armies graduated with honors from the Rekkenmark Academy and earned a place in the Order of Rekkenmark."
I'm also almost positive I read in some book that the academy recently reopened to non-Karrns, but I don't feel like rereading all of Forge of War, despite how much fun this nitpicking has been. Anybody remember what I'm referring to?
Yeah, it was definitely open throughout the war according to previous sources, producing some of Karrnath's finest commanders. There is a Sharn Inquisitive article about a Karrnathi war criminal who is one such graduate here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebsi/20050808a.
There is also another such article concerning Boranel's son Halix recently enrolling here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebsi/20050321a
If anyone can remind me how to relabel/conceal urls, I'd appreciate the reminder.
It touches them and influences them, but in a dreamlike way - and I'd say that the manner in which it communicates with them is far more in line with use of telepathy than speaking to them in Quor.
Fair enough. This take makes a lot of sense.
I can see a kalashtar with close ties to Adar learning the tongue. But taking my 3E kalashtar wilder, who was an orphan raised among humans, I see no reason that he'd be able to speak Quor innately. If I'd CHOSEN to acquire it, I could easily justify it as "something that came to me, as if in a dream".
And this is a good point, as well, when taken together with the first. I am convinced, my friend. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
In this light it makes a certain kind of sense. But I still can't accept it. Goblin may have been the other common at the time of the empire, but they didn't conquer the orc realms. There is no reason why the orcs should start talking Goblin among their own kind, especially if their cultures are as different as they are.
We have thousands of years of Dhakaani History that is unaccounted for--it could well be that, briefly, the Dhakaani DID conquer the orc realms, and during this time, the Orcs adopted the Goblin language.
A century or two that it would take for a concerted change of this magnitude could easily be lost in the historical record after the invasion from Xoriat.
on the other hand, it may simply be that the orcs learned goblin because that was the language of culture and commerce--orc chieftains would need to learn it to deal with the dhakaani, orc mercenaries and traders would learn it when they were in the dhakaani lands, and they might well bring it back to their people. we might also consider a possible religious reason, with orcs adopting the goblin religion and so learning the goblin language.
in short: there are many reasons why orcs speak goblin.
We have thousands of years of Dhakaani History that is unaccounted for--it could well be that, briefly, the Dhakaani DID conquer the orc realms, and during this time, the Orcs adopted the Goblin language.
A century or two that it would take for a concerted change of this magnitude could easily be lost in the historical record after the invasion from Xoriat.
on the other hand, it may simply be that the orcs learned goblin because that was the language of culture and commerce--orc chieftains would need to learn it to deal with the dhakaani, orc mercenaries and traders would learn it when they were in the dhakaani lands, and they might well bring it back to their people. we might also consider a possible religious reason, with orcs adopting the goblin religion and so learning the goblin language.
in short: there are many reasons why orcs speak goblin.
Sorry, but it still doesn't make sense. The Shadow Marches are a backwater region. Even if the Dhakaani bothered to conquer it - and I don't see any reason why they should have -, the dispersed, tribal nature of the orcs would make it almost impossible to bring them under any control. The majority of the orcs wouldn't have had any contact to goblins.
Yes, those that had dealings with the Dhakaani probably learned their language. But that's not enough to replace another one.
Religions reasons are equally out of the question. The Dhakaani didn't worship gods.
There would be more than enough time for its language 'to spread'. Dare to compare the length of time common has been around on Khorvaire and how ubiquitous it is.
Sorry, but it still doesn't make sense. The Shadow Marches are a backwater region. Even if the Dhakaani bothered to conquer it - and I don't see any reason why they should have -, the dispersed, tribal nature of the orcs would make it almost impossible to bring them under any control. The majority of the orcs wouldn't have had any contact to goblins.
Yes, those that had dealings with the Dhakaani probably learned their language. But that's not enough to replace another one.
Religions reasons are equally out of the question. The Dhakaani didn't worship gods.
This is 10,000 years of Dhakaani rule of Khorvaire that we are talking about. Ten millenia--that's longer than all of human recorded history. And the history that we've been presented encapsulates it in a few brief notes.
Language spread can happen in unusual ways. Missionaries, invaders, traders, educators, all can bring language to new areas.
Perhaps the Dhakaani didn't have gods when the empire fell, but there might have been exceptions at different times in their history. AFter all, the Dark Six ARE the gods of the goblinoids now... was there some proto-religion that enabled that conversion?
I can easily envision a band of dhakaani "heretics" being exiled or driven into the Shadow Marches, where they establish a miniature empire over the primitive orcs and instruct them in their language and religion.
Moreover, the Shadow Marches are NOW a backwater region--what if this wasn't always the case?
Perhaps the Dhakaani didn't have gods when the empire fell, but there might have been exceptions at different times in their history. AFter all, the Dark Six ARE the gods of the goblinoids now... was there some proto-religion that enabled that conversion?
The Dhakaani empire was agnostic.
This is 10,000 years of Dhakaani rule of Khorvaire that we are talking about. Ten millenia--that's longer than all of human recorded history. And the history that we've been presented encapsulates it in a few brief notes.
Language spread can happen in unusual ways. Missionaries, invaders, traders, educators, all can bring language to new areas.
Perhaps the Dhakaani didn't have gods when the empire fell, but there might have been exceptions at different times in their history. AFter all, the Dark Six ARE the gods of the goblinoids now... was there some proto-religion that enabled that conversion?
I can easily envision a band of dhakaani "heretics" being exiled or driven into the Shadow Marches, where they establish a miniature empire over the primitive orcs and instruct them in their language and religion.
Moreover, the Shadow Marches are NOW a backwater region--what if this wasn't always the case?
The Dhakaani Empire was, as others have mentioned, an agnostic culture, as are the Dhakaani tribes that remain today.
That said, after the empire fell apart but before humans began arriving from Sarlona, a coalition of tribes calling themselves the Ghaal'dar (the ancestors of the modern Ghaal'dar tribes of Darguun) developed a religion that venerated sixteen gods.
When humans arrived from Sarlona, bringing the early teachings of the Sovereign Host with them, they effectively linked nine of the Ghaal'dar pantheon to the deities of the Sovereign Host, while casting six of the others as outcast relatives of the other gods (creating the Dark Six). Some goblins turned specifically to the worship of the Dark Six as a form of rebellion against those of their gods that would side with the human invaders.
The last god, believed to be the most important in the Ghaal'dar pantheon (akin to Zeus or Odin, I imagine), was not incorporated into either the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six, however. Instead, he was obliterated: his face and name destroyed in every text and work of art from the period. The reasons why are unknown. He is sometimes referred to as "the Overthrown".
(This is paraphrased from the old "Player's Guide to Eberron", but was also mentioned in James Wyatt's book "Storm Dragon")
The Dhakaani empire was agnostic.
That's a rather blanket statement to cover 10,000 years of history, even more so when one considers the size of Khorvaire.
anyhow, my point remains valid: it is easy to create a series of historical events that explain orcs using goblin as a language--if they ever even had a separate language in the first place...
It also ingores evidence of the 16 god pantheon the goblins had.
As has been noted, the pantheon was a later development that arose following the Xoriat incursion, when the traditions of the founding empire were fracturing and cracking. Things like the adoption of strange gods were exactly the sort of thing that caused the different provinces of the empire to turn on one another and collapse. The founding empire was agnostic, as stated in the original ECS; essentially, the empire was very advanced in the martial sphere and had certain edges in the arcane sphere (with its bards and smiths), but pretty much shut out the divine. As a result, this remains largely true with the Heirs of Dhakaan, the clans that isolated themselves during the collapse of the empire - while the Ghaal'dar may follow the pantheon that arose during the collapse.
The Dhakaani empire didn't fall in a day. Its fall took centuries. The rise of the Sixteen is a part of that collapse - straying from the core traditions that built the empire. There were others; we've mentioned the fact that a few goblins turned to druidic traditions, as it was those traditions that defeats the Daelkyr. Essentially, while Xoriat was defeated, the seeds of discord were sown, and tradition began to break.
But the blanket statement comes from page 304 of the ECS (and my dragonshards). "The Dhakaani do not have clerics. They are an agnostic society, and their spiritual leaders are the bards who inspire the communities with tales of past glory." The Sixteen rose with the fall - but it is a reflection of the fact that societies change over time. The Heirs of Dhakaan largely hold to those pure founding principles... though you could certainly introduce a clan that could hold the the very original concept of the Sixteen, and possibly still worships the Overthrown.
There would be more than enough time for its language 'to spread'. Dare to compare the length of time common has been around on Khorvaire and how ubiquitous it is.
Time isn't the issue. Languages do not spread over time, they spread through migration. When the immigrating people becomes a majority in a certain region, then its language becomes preeminent. The indigenous population has to adapt, because they cannot thrive individually if they don't.
I don't see many goblinoids living in the Shadow Marches.
And it goes on. With immigration, there comes a new culture, which is usually an amalgam between immigrant and indigenous culture. But I don't see anything resembling goblinoid culture among the orcs.
The Dhakaani believe in strength in numbers. Individuality is not highly valued, except among bugbears, where it is encouraged.
The orcs value individual strength. They are competitive, not very ordered, and aggressive, which would be highly disruptive in Dhakaani society.
They also venerate nature, instead of the hero worship the Dhakaani are used to.
Heck, the Daelkyr made a more impressive mark on Marcher culture than the Dhakaani. In the wake of the invasion, orc tribes began to worship them in favour to their druidic religion. And even those orcs do not speak Daelkyr, do they?
Time isn't the issue. Languages do not spread over time, they spread through migration. When the immigrating people becomes a majority in a certain region, then its language becomes preeminent.
Much as we might wish it otherwise, though, D&D doesn't follow normal language laws. If it did, Common would be divided into six or seven major dialects and several dozen minor ones, each village in the Eldeen and the Shadow Marches would have their own language, it would be impossible for the drow to have common tongues with each other let alone outsiders, and a goblin from Darguun and a goblin from Droaam wouldn't have the faintest idea what the other was saying.
This would, of course, be preferable from the perspective of a novelist (I know Bassingthwaite appreciates the situation, since the Marcher tribe in The Dragon Below series speaks a dialect of low Draconic as its mother tongue and only a few members of the tribe speak any Common at all, let alone fluently). However, from the perspective of the designers of the game world, linguistics simply doesn't have any impact because literally everybody you will ever meet can understand Common (which apparently hasn't changed at all in over a thousand years), whether or not they choose to speak it.
4E made an intentional decision to limit the number of languages in the game, on the principle that having lots and lots of languages is often a handicap as opposed to a source of entertainment - because it limits the abilities of PCs to interact with the environment and one another.
To this end, 4E removed many of the languages that previously existed in 3E. In 4E, orcs speak Giant. There was considerable reluctance to add in a new language only spoken in a single region by a single culture. Would this be a realistic choice? Certainly. But if we're going to realism, neither 3E or 4E is particularly realistic. Even if you add the Orc language back in, the orcs of the Mror Holds wouldn't speak the same langauge as the orcs of the Shadow Marches; the two have no common cultural ties. The same holds true for the orcs of the Demon Wastes. ANY concept of a "racial language" is already a stretch of reality. The incredible uniformity of the Common tongue takes this even further.
So. The designers had no intention of adding lots of new langauges back in for 4E Eberron; the reduction of languages was an intentional design decision. With this in mind, I lobbied for orcs to speak Goblin instead of Giant in order to give those languages a sense of identity and place in history. Common is the common tongue of the present day. Goblin is the common tongue of Khorvaire in the Age of Monsters. Giant is the common tongue of Xen'drik in the Age of Giants. Thus the scholar who wants to specialize in the Age of Monsters can get Goblin and be fairly well off - except when he's dealing with Dragon Below cultists who do keep their records in Deep Speech.
It's NOT realistic. If you want realism, each orcish subculture should have its own language, and you should likely create one for the Eldeen shifters, along with more than a single language among the humans (reflecting core languages evolving in the many original Sarlonan kingdoms as opposed to a core "old common", which isn't an especially realistic concept). One would expect the Talentan halflings to have their own language, which right now they don't. I'm sure one could come up with a logical case for additional languages. Adding all these languages in is a trivial thing. It just means that communication will become more of an issue, and it's going to be much more important for PCs to be multilingual or have access to Comprehend Languages.
So it's NOT realistic. It's pulp adventure, where you can find the mysterious jungle city where the natives all speak English (albeit with an English accent). If you want realism, it's easy to add back in. Otherwise, the goal is to establish Goblin as the language of the Age of Monsters (in Khorvaire) and Giant as the language of Xen'drik - and thus, it makes sense for the orcs of Khorvaire to speak Goblin instead of Giant. If you put the Orcish language back on the table, it's a different question - but when the choice is Goblin or Giant, I certainly prefer Goblin.
I know Bassingthwaite appreciates the situation, since the Marcher tribe in The Dragon Below series speaks a dialect of low Draconic as its mother tongue and only a few members of the tribe speak any Common at all, let alone fluently.
And I'll note that as a storyteller, I'm more than happy to break the rules as fits the need of the story. I have no problem having an isolated village in the Marches whose people only speak Deep Speech, despite the core claim that orcs speak Goblin. This sort of thing adds interesting depth to a story - and as a storyteller, I KNOW whether it's going to be interesting (because my PCs have some way to interact, even if it's just through the scholar character who's using Comprehend Languages to facilitate communication) or a pain (because it just means that the party will have no way to communicate with the villagers and the story will be frustrating).
It's mainly a matter of establishing a general rule for the GAME - and specifically setting the idea that Giant is not a common language in Khorvaire, and where it's found in things you want to convert to Eberron, it should be something that traces to Xen'drik.
But like any rule, it's something you can change to serve the best interests of the story.
The realities of language kind of have to bow to the practical needs of the gaming table. I've studied several languages and speak three with acceptable fluency; my players are all monolingual. Some of my NPCs present communication challenges for dramatic reasons, but 4 times out of 5 we just need hassle-free exposition.
Fortunately, for those of us who really want to talk about Galifaran dialects and Goblin language sub-families, we have the boards.
The realities of language kind of have to bow to the practical needs of the gaming table. I've studied several languages and speak three with acceptable fluency; my players are all monolingual.
You seriously just start speaking another real language when an NPC doesn't speak common? That's pretty awesome.
You seriously just start speaking another real language when an NPC doesn't speak common? That's pretty awesome.
i don't think he said that, but if true, then yes, awesome points would be awarded.
You seriously just start speaking another real language when an NPC doesn't speak common? That's pretty awesome.
I do so from time to time, but part of my point is that I can only do it so many times before the other players start saying, "Yeah, great-- can we get back to how we're going to cross this ocean?" :embarrass
No longer is the "d" prefix before Dragonmarked names only for the 'marked scions. The EPG implied that all members of the Houses use the prefix. Whether this was a conscious decision to cut down on the confusion of some, or whether this will contradict the ECG remains to be seen.
I don't want to derail an energetic topic, but another difference struck me the first time I read through the EPG.
No longer is the "d" prefix before Dragonmarked names only for the 'marked scions. The EPG implied that all members of the Houses use the prefix. Whether this was a conscious decision to cut down on the confusion of some, or whether this will contradict the ECG remains to be seen.
You say it as if it's a bad thing
...You say it as if it's a bad thing
I kind of like only the 'marked using the prefix. Never once has it confused me. (I even recognized that bit with Lady Elaydren as the author's confusion, and not my own.) The prefix adds an extra level of arrogance to an already arrogant lot.
That said, it makes sense the way it's presented in the EPG. The comparison is made to the "ir" prefix used by nobility. The "d" prefix is said to "solidify the dragonmarked houses and set them apart from the rest of Khorvaire-particularly from those who have aberrant dragonmarks".
This again strikes me as an arrogant act by an arrogant lot. Most of the early 'marked probably weren't born nobles, but they effectively set themselves on that pedestal by creating their own naming tradition. Really, who was going to challenge them on it? Very fitting, indeed.
I can go with either way: 1) arrogantly setting themselves above the rest of Khorvaire, or 2) arrogantly setting themselves above even their unmarked kin. I'm curious to see which way the ECG goes.
No longer is the "d" prefix before Dragonmarked names only for the 'marked scions. The EPG implied that all members of the Houses use the prefix. Whether this was a conscious decision to cut down on the confusion of some, or whether this will contradict the ECG remains to be seen.
Actually, this isn't a difference; 3E has gone back and forth on this. If you check page 48 of the Player's Guide to Eberron, you'll see it stated that all families use the d', and that it's primary purpose is to help when someone uses their secondary family name (Vown, Ellorenthi) instead of the House Name... so people know Elaydren d'Vown is tied to a house even if they don't know Vown is a Cannith line.
*I* like the idea that d' indicates an actual dragonmarked heir, and I use it that way. But the setting's never been 100% clear on it.
Actually, this isn't a difference; 3E has gone back and forth on this.
I thought the ECS, at least, was clear on the point, and always deferred to the standard therein. As you alluded, though, there always was a bit of waffling in later publications.
Unless contradicted by the ECG, I may very well stick with the way you and I have each been using it. Since you've presumably done a good deal of the writing of said book, I assume that the ECG won't conclusively rule "yay or nay".
If you check page 48 of the Player's Guide to Eberron, you'll see it stated that all families use the d', and that it's primary purpose is to help when someone uses their secondary family name (Vown, Ellorenthi) instead of the House Name... so people know Elaydren d'Vown is tied to a house even if they don't know Vown is a Cannith line.
This much appears to have been retconned/clarified, then. The EPG says that members of the Houses use the House name unless special circumstance dictates they include their family name. So, by the new standard, Lady E would go by "Elaydren d'Cannith" unless among a gathering of her peers, or the like. In that circumstance she'd identify herself as "Elaydren Vown d'Cannith". This part I do like.
*I* like the idea that d' indicates an actual dragonmarked heir, and I use it that way.
Same here.
A little off topic, I'm left wondering how you're finding so much time to spend with us in this here virtual world. I hope you aren't "missing the sights" to hang out with this crazy lot. :P
Unfortunately, the only novel characters who've been in a position to gain a d' had either not mentioned their family name before that point, or had lost the right to use it, thus the opportunity to show the principle in practice has been missed.
A little off topic, I'm left wondering how you're finding so much time to spend with us in this here virtual world. I hope you aren't "missing the sights" to hang out with this crazy lot. :P
I really shouldn't be posting as much as I have been when I have sights to see and work to do. It's just hard because the books are newly out and there's important issues being raised... adn I do care about the setting.
I really shouldn't be posting as much as I have been when I have sights to see and work to do. It's just hard because the books are newly out and there's important issues being raised... adn I do care about the setting.
You give more to the community than I've ever seen another designer give. You are definitely entitled to a vacation. We'll make due.
That said, it's been cool having you here when we'd anticipated your extended absence; and it definitely speaks to your love of the setting.
Perhaps you should try weaning us with fewer and fewer posts...?
I really shouldn't be posting as much as I have been when I have sights to see and work to do. It's just hard because the books are newly out and there's important issues being raised... adn I do care about the setting.
Sorry to raise such a distracting thread. I was hoping people would be more into the nitty gritty details as opposed to the obvious retconning.
I have to agree I've never seen a developer so helpful with fans. I'm pretty sure there never has been another. It's probably the single largest reason I keep buying Eberron (which is one of the main reasons I've kept up with 4th ed) and why I buy all of your books as soon as they come out.
For the record, I would still like to know what your plans for the underwater civilizations of Eberron were. I would also still like to see the second half of that last Dragonshard on Aberrant Marks. I guess we'll probably never see either at this point.
And on a completely unrelated note, where are you in your world tour? already past Boston?
However (Dragonmarked, p.17):
For thirty years, the sale of warforged kept Cannith prosperous, with each of the Five Nations commissioning troops from Whitehearth, Cannith’s ancestral forgehold.
[...]
What caused the Day of Mourning, none can say. It seems that of the cities of Cyre, Eston suffered the greatest damage. Whitehearth’s destruction claimed the life of not only the baron, but also many of the house’s prominent leaders and dragonmarked heirs.
Admittedly, it's not made explicit, but the juxaposition of those last two sentences makes very little sense unless Whitehearth was in fact in Eston. This is supported by another part of today's ECG excerpt, which states that "House Cannith had its headquarters in Eston."
So what's up with the new map putting Whitehearth and Eston in totally different places?
Moving back to the actual nitpicking, today's ECG Preview places Whitehearth in southwest Cyre south of the Field of Ruins.
The funny part is that when I created Whitehearth (for Shadows of the Last War) the point was that it was a secret research facility whose location was known only to important Cannith heirs. As such, the concept that it was the central facility everyone dealt with was already a change. ;)
And on a completely unrelated note, where are you in your world tour? already past Boston?
I'm in Heathrow airport, preparing to go to eastern Europe. You can find my lastest update here. I haven't made it to the east coast of the US yet - I'll probably be doing that in winter.
For the record, I would still like to know what your plans for the underwater civilizations of Eberron were.
If you can catch me on my world tour, I'd be more than happy to tell you. ;)
I'm in Heathrow airport, preparing to go to eastern Europe.
Heathrow? My heart bleeds for you. Worst airport in the world (and I've been to Conakry).
On topic: The new cosmology has the gnomes emerging from the feywild like the eladrin, just earlier on. This change doesn't necessarily contradict any historic interaction with the goblin empire or the default PoL fomorian entanglement, does it? (Revised gnome history: frying pan, fire, douse, repeat!)
Heathrow? My heart bleeds for you. Worst airport in the world (and I've been to Conakry).
On topic: The new cosmology has the gnomes emerging from the feywild like the eladrin, just earlier on. This change doesn't necessarily contradict any historic interaction with the goblin empire or the default PoL fomorian entanglement, does it? (Revised gnome history: frying pan, fire, douse, repeat!)
Not really...they appear in the forests and jungles of Zilargo, Dakhaani meet them, consider them a sort of rat-people, invede, gnomes fight back and fight irty etc.
Goblin may have been the other common at the time of the empire, but they didn't conquer the orc realms.
Just as a side point, I personally disagree with this statement. At its height, the Dhakaani empire dominated the center of Khorvaire. Dragonborn and orcs existed on the fringes - the western and eastern coasts, in the marches and mountains, in lands like Q'barra. But in my opinion things weren't ALWAYS this way; this was the result of many centuries of expansion. We've spelled this out with the dragonborn in 4E; there's evidence of a dragonborn presence beyond Q'barra, but by the time the Daelkyr came around, they'd been pushed into the jungles. You have goblin cities spread around modern Droaam (Suthar Draal, Cazhaak Draal, Shaarat Kol, and for that matter, both Graywall and the Great Crag)... but you also have the fact that orcs outnumber goblins in the modern population.
In my opinion, goblins DEFINITELY conquered orc realms. Given the presence of goblin fortresses in a region with a large orcish population and the knowledge that goblins will enslave other races, I think it's quite likely that there were orc slaves in Cazhaak Draal and the foundation of the Great Crag. I think that by the time of the Xoriat incursion, things had reached a stable point; the goblins didn't want the Wastes, Reaches, or Marches, and so there wasn't active conflict. But I think you certainly had interaction between the races in the thousands of years they shared the continent.
I'm in Heathrow airport, preparing to go to eastern Europe.
Since when is Vienna eastern europe?
:P
See you on Monday
Since when is Vienna eastern europe?
:P
See you on Monday
I bet you're pretty happy with yourself, about now. :P
That's awesome. You guys have fun.
Since when is Vienna eastern europe?
It's just my first stop. I'm starting somewhere then HEADING east. ;)
Just as a side point, I personally disagree with this statement. At its height, the Dhakaani empire dominated the center of Khorvaire. Dragonborn and orcs existed on the fringes - the western and eastern coasts, in the marches and mountains, in lands like Q'barra. But in my opinion things weren't ALWAYS this way; this was the result of many centuries of expansion. We've spelled this out with the dragonborn in 4E; there's evidence of a dragonborn presence beyond Q'barra, but by the time the Daelkyr came around, they'd been pushed into the jungles. You have goblin cities spread around modern Droaam (Suthar Draal, Cazhaak Draal, Shaarat Kol, and for that matter, both Graywall and the Great Crag)... but you also have the fact that orcs outnumber goblins in the modern population.
In my opinion, goblins DEFINITELY conquered orc realms. Given the presence of goblin fortresses in a region with a large orcish population and the knowledge that goblins will enslave other races, I think it's quite likely that there were orc slaves in Cazhaak Draal and the foundation of the Great Crag. I think that by the time of the Xoriat incursion, things had reached a stable point; the goblins didn't want the Wastes, Reaches, or Marches, and so there wasn't active conflict. But I think you certainly had interaction between the races in the thousands of years they shared the continent.
But the goblins hadn't the majority in numbers, right?
But the goblins hadn't the majority in numbers, right?
Yes and no. The original goblin city the Great Crag is built upon was far larger than anything comparable among the orcs, who were more primitive and primal. So orcs were more widespread, but within those core regions (IE around any of the named Goblin settlements in Droaam) you'd have a goblin majority. Note that orcs only have a slight majority over goblins in Droaam. And after the conflict had settled and the borders of the empire stabilized, you could easily have trade between the two - as the civilized goblins would be a source of forged weapons and other tools the orcs couldn't produce, while they might trade rare substances from the Marches, druidic rituals, or what have you. Thus Goblin could have served as a trade language - which is, presumably, the main justification for everyone speaking the Common tongue as is.
With that said, it's not my intention to start the debate again, because as I said, it's NEVER been realistic. The scattered nature of the orcs is precisely the sort of thing that would lean towards a wide diversity of languages... five different dialects of Orcish spread between the Marches, Reaches and Waste and an entirely different one in the Mror Holds, Deep Speech used by those clans that have embraced the Dragon Below, Draconic used by Vvaraak's disciples, and so on. Of course, this would be the argument for Goblin. The orcs lacked a unified tongue, because you had that diversity of culture as noted above. However, all of those groups traded with the Dhakaani, who had a monolithic culture and language. As such, each group learned to speak Goblin, which ultimately turned out to be the common tongue between the Eldeen orc and the Marcher DB orc, who speak "Eldeen Orcish" and Deep Speech among their own people.
But yes, where realism is concerned, I'd expect MANY more languages than we have. The use of any sort of common tongue is a matter of convenience; you can certainly add more languages if you want. I'm more interested in the point that it too the goblins a long time to reach the level of dominance that they held over the continent - and that during this time, they interacted with many different cultures. The gnolls of Droaam may once have roamed freely throughout Breland. The Dhakaani may have paved the way for Galifar by driving many dangerous creatures and races to the edges of the continent... something that would change with the fall, but still, the worst of the worst were pushed to the fringes, leaving a soft center the Five Nations would come to fill.
The more I think about it, the more I think that's what I'd be likely to do - to say "This isolated orc village never picked up Goblin and speaks an ancient tribal tongue. Hussel, you could try Comprehend Languages... or Kas Velderan, you could make an Int roll to see if you can communicate. You picked up a bit of this during your wandering days in the Marches." Of course, if I have him make the roll, I need to have a plan in place for if he fails! But the point is that I might add it in for color when it makes the game fun - but I'd still stick to the current list for CORE, common languages - with the "lesser" tongues being things players fudge or get for free as opposed to needing to spend their major language slots on.
If you can catch me on my world tour, I'd be more than happy to tell you. ;)
I'll definitely be watching your blog for when you come up this way. You must have one hectic schedule to come to the NE in winter. Good luck with everything, and I look forward to seeing your next project!
My nitpick is that the Ghorad'din have changed from Kundarak commandos to security testers and occasionally "recovery" experts and assassins.
I just liked the image of a Dwarven commando. I mean, you expect Dwarves to be capeable in combat, but rather loud and unsubtle. Now, though, you have a dwarf who can probably roll over you in a straight-up fight, but now he's doing it from ambush, in the dark, and with the element of surprise.
I'm sorry, but that's a wee bit more scary to me than...dwarves who test security at new vaults.
I have to say, though, I hope there are Dragon or Dungeon articles expounding on the backgrounds in the back; Basilisk's Gaze? Medani war criminal hunters? Medani operations inside the Mournland under the Thousand Yard Stare? Ghallandra Dawn-Builders? Followers of Sahemi? I wanna know MORE about these!
The last thing, though, is that His Infernal Bovinity, the honorable Mr. Baker, is known, and distinctive, for commenting on Eberron-related topics. I, personally, have never seen a comment from him that was rude or unhelpful, which is far more than i could say for how I would respond in the same situation. On the TV Tropes page for Eberron, Keith is listed as a manifestation of the, "Word of God" trope, which I interpreted in a positive light.
My nitpick is that the Ghorad'din have changed from Kundarak commandos to security testers and occasionally "recovery" experts and assassins.
I just liked the image of a Dwarven commando. I mean, you expect Dwarves to be capeable in combat, but rather loud and unsubtle. Now, though, you have a dwarf who can probably roll over you in a straight-up fight, but now he's doing it from ambush, in the dark, and with the element of surprise.
I'm sorry, but that's a wee bit more scary to me than...dwarves who test security at new vaults.
You are clearly not familiar with the realworld SEAL Team Red Cell. Red Cell is also now the name of a civilian business operating in the same capacity. [Metal Gear Solid fans will remember the Dead Cell team of MGS2, a blatant ripoff of the real life Red Cell].
The Ghorad'din are now Kundarak's version of Red Cell. The realworld Red Cell, particularly the original SEAL unit led by Dick Marcinko, would be equally as capable in a "straight up fight" or a clandestine mission. I find this much more fitting and appealing a mold for the Ghor'radin than their previous incarnation.
You might find the new Ghorad'din infiltrating secure installations, for any number of organizations, in order to test and improve security. You might find them providing personal security for a VIP (yep, that would step on a few dragonmarked toes, but that's nothing new-- see Deneith v. Tharashk). You may find them providing supplemental security for a particularly sensitive shipment via Orien or Lyrandar services.
These new Ghorad'din seem loaded with potential. They may still be Kundarak's commando unit of choice for important missions. They now have a somewhat more legitimate, public face, as well.
You must have one hectic schedule to come to the NE in winter.
I went to college in Maine... I have no fear of New England winters. ;)
It is honestly better for them to just shut things down.