But what about the Lesser and Greater marks?
My first instinct is to just make these into two generic dragonmark feats. Something like below:
Lesser Dragonmark
Prerequisite: Mark of Detection, Mark of Making, Mark of the Sentinel, Mark of Warding, Mark of Scribing, Mark of Finding, Mark of Shadow, Mark of Storm, Mark of Handling, Mark of Passage, Mark of Healing, or Mark of Hospitality
Benefit: Your Dragonmark grows, changing from the Least pattern associated with the mark to the Lesser pattern. You gain a +5 bonus on all skill checks to perform rituals associated with your dragonmark.
Greater Dragonmark
Prerequisite: Mark of Detection, Mark of Making, Mark of the Sentinel, Mark of Warding, Mark of Scribing, Mark of Finding, Mark of Shadow, Mark of Storm, Mark of Handling, Mark of Passage, Mark of Healing, or Mark of Hospitality and Lesser Dragonmark
Benefit: Your Dragonmark grows, changing from the Lesser pattern associated with the mark to the Greater pattern. You may perform one ritual associated with your dragonmark without expending components once per day. You can choose a different ritual associated with your each day to gain this benefit, and you can make the choice upon starting any ritual associated with your dragonmark.
1. Each house has a Paragon Path relating to the Mark.
2. There could well be Paragon or Epic tier feats relating to the Marks.
As per the designers, there is only one feat per Mark.
Also, over in ENWorld, on the thread where someone got their EPG early and was fielding questions, I asked about Least Lesser and Greater Dragonmarks, and the person with the book said there was no mention of any type of grading system for marks. You either had one or you didn't.
Aye, but how exactly do the Houses have an economic advantage over casters with no Dragonmarks?
They got there first and they're an established presence now.
Dragonmarks don't let you learn how to cast rituals that everyone was already using. Rituals were researched and invented to duplicate what the dragonmarks first let people do. By the time the Twelve or the Arcane Congress figured out how to duplicate Linked Portal (for example), House Orien had already set themselves up to capitalize on it.
However, the way dragonmarks in 4e work, this kind of scaling is not needed. Now, the mark of healing grants a free saving throw with other healing powers. Free saving throws are great at level 1 and great at level 30 (heck maybe more important then because monsters grant nasty debilitating conditions more often).
Now, I do agree with the idea of dragonmarks growing more prominent with the power of the user. We will have to see how the book does it. However, if the book offers no guidance, I would leave this as a pure fluff effect and declare that the dragonmark gets bigger and fancier the more related powers the user has. Level would be one factor, but not the only one. We'll stick with the mark of healing as an example.
Imagine a marked PC from house Jorasco, he is a 6th level rogue who has mutli-classed into warlord to get some advantage from his mark. - His mark wouldn't be very prominent and appear as a least mark. Now, imagine an equal level Jorasco PC who is a bard with several healing powers, his mark might be large and obvious and appear as a lesser mark. Now imagine a 15th level Jorasco PC with who is a healing focused cleric, he might appear to have a greater mark.
So higher level heirs have bigger marks and develop new powers over time, just like 3.5.
I was incorrect about potential heroic and epic tier feats regarding higher level marks. However, rumor has it there may be an Epic Destiny Heir of Siberys in the future in Dragon...
In any case, they do specifically state in the book that the marks do indeed grow at their owners become more powerful. It's entirely fluff and not mechanical, though. I think this is appropriate though, as they don't want you to have to weaken yourself significantly in order to get the benefits of higher marks by taking extra feats.
As in: You spend a feat on getting least Dragonmark, sucker!
Even though having a mark at all is pretty awesome.
If any new feats are made I'd like to see titles like "Improved" dragonmark for Lesser marks, keeping the "Greater" for the highest level.
Actually, the terms "Least, Lesser, Greater Dragonmark" always kind of bugged me.
As in: You spend a feat on getting least Dragonmark, sucker!
Even though having a mark at all is pretty awesome.
If any new feats are made I'd like to see titles like "Improved" dragonmark for Lesser marks, keeping the "Greater" for the highest level.
Yeah I agree, if there are tiers, marked/Improved/Greater/Siberys works much better for me.
I hope/expect a dragon article that comes in the next few months gives us the other three tiers of Marks. (as feats for Improved and Greater, PP(s) for siberys)
If I was doing it (and I may if there is no forthcoming article) I will require 6th Level for Improved, 11th for greater. I'm not sure how I'd do each one yet. I'll have to fully absorb the new feats first I think.
The point is that the power of dragonmarks manifests in a different way. The Mark of Storm now improves your lightning, thunder and wind powers. Thus, as your character's lightning powers improve, you could certainly decide that your mark is growing as well. I play the Lyrandar storm sorcerer as being a storm sorcerer BECAUSE of his mark - his storm powers are him channeling the power of the storm that is his marked birthright. As a result, as he goes up in level, I'll certainly have his mark grow.
So the point is that the cosmetic appearance of the mark is released from three hard and fast stages. That doesn't mean that it doesn't grow - it means it grows when you and the DM want it to grow. The appearance of the mark should always be based on the fundamental base of the core mark, as it always has been. But if you want your mark of storm to be somewhere between the traditional Lesser and Greater mark, go for it.
With that said, I'd certainly link size and appearance to power. So the epic storm sorcerer might have what we think of as a siberys-level mark covering most of his body; the 2nd-level storm sorcerer would likely only have the least mark we're familiar with.
But again, the key is that because the marks are riders on powers as opposed to powers themselves, the power of the mark DOES grow - because the power of the abilities it improves grows.
I don't really feel that feats for Lesser and Greater are needed because, as others before me have pointed out, most of the marks grow in power as you grow in level.
As to the Marks in general, I am pretty underwhelmed with the whole thing so far to be honest. To go from a gift that could truly alter your fate to just another plus something and a couple rituals seems kind of lame to me. Nor does it come close to explaining how the houses could of held their positions of power for so long. The, "They got there first.", argument is pretty weak in my opinion since, using a current analogy, Ford was once a huge power house in the automobile industry mainly because of the whole assembly line idea. Once that became the norm they started to lose their foothold. And heck now, we'll be lucky if it continues to exist. If, on the other hand, they could of some how patterned the idea of the assembly line, which is a pretty silly concept, then no one could have truly competed with them. When it comes to Eberron let's take House Orien. Even if we say that before the Mark Of Passage there was no such thing as any kind of portal ritual, making the assumption that the mark takes the place of a ritual book for example, then at first the House would be on top of the world as the only avenue for magical transport. That is until some creative folk "reverse engineer" the method of how they are creating the portals and create, say, the Linked Portal ritual. Then the monopoly is in big trouble. At the very very least the houses would be on a down turn when it comes to their power base as more and more individuals are able to master the ritual and duplicate the service the house once provided solely. An industrial age society, which Eberron technically is, breeds competition and without a truly unique advantage I don't see the houses being anymore powerful than the average guild.
Oh, and I have to say I am truly tired of the "NPCs don't have to follow the same rules as PCs" argument to explain off how things can exist, especially in Eberron. In my mind, the greatest aspect of the setting was that the PCs would be the greatest champions, creators, builders, artists, what have you of the world. As it stands now, no matter what path an artificer, for example, attempts to take, he or she can not come close to creating the highest levels of marvels that are commonplace in the world On the other hand they can hire an NPC to do it for them though so that makes it all better right? In general, that is pretty weak.
As it stands now, no matter what path an artificer, for example, attempts to take, he or she can not come close to creating the highest levels of marvels that are commonplace in the world On the other hand they can hire an NPC to do it for them though so that makes it all better right? In general, that is pretty weak.
Master crafter: [Heroic]
pre rec: Artificer
Create magic items of your level + your Intelligence modifier or lower
Master mixer: [Heroic]
pre rec: Artificer
Create alchemical items of your level + 3 or lower.
Does this help?
An yes, a random NPC migth be bale to take the feat, but a random NPC crafter will most likely never ever see anything beyond heroic tier. So a PC will eventually be a great crafter just by having one feat. Compared to 3rd edition were you had to take a specialised feat if you wanted to create anything at all. And these feats actually bring the artificer right back were he used to be. At the top of of the creation lader, without having to devote all of his class abilities to do it.
The marks do not grow in power as you level in 4e, the bonus they give seems to stay static. Sure your totals get higher but that has nothing to do with the mark, just the normal level progression for your character. That's kind of like saying my Alertness feat is improving as I level because my perception is now higher.
This isn't true. The feats, for the most part, do grow in power as you level because the options to use them increase. Not even including the PP that are based on the different marks you just have more powers that use those marks. If you have a mark of healing you will have more healing abilities that will trigger it at level 15 than at level 1.
You example, alertness, does not gain more usage so it does not grow in power. However, a mark does.
Aye, but how exactly do the Houses have an economic advantage over casters with no Dragonmarks?
Personally, I use a feat that provides Dragonmarked people with a +2 roll and 10% discount on the rituals associated with their feats. Mainly useful for NPCs (who don't actually use feats, but it's the premise that it exists in the world), but even a minor cost is enough to give the house as a whole a significant economic advantage. Free once per day doesn't work as well for me, because I want to emphasize that the Kundarak locksmith can work all day.
As to the Marks in general, I am pretty underwhelmed with the whole thing so far to be honest. To go from a gift that could truly alter your fate to just another plus something and a couple rituals seems kind of lame to me. Nor does it come close to explaining how the houses could of held their positions of power for so long. The, "They got there first.", argument is pretty weak in my opinion since, using a current analogy, Ford was once a huge power house in the automobile industry mainly because of the whole assembly line idea. Once that became the norm they started to lose their foothold. And heck now, we'll be lucky if it continues to exist. If, on the other hand, they could of some how patterned the idea of the assembly line, which is a pretty silly concept, then no one could have truly competed with them. When it comes to Eberron let's take House Orien. Even if we say that before the Mark Of Passage there was no such thing as any kind of portal ritual, making the assumption that the mark takes the place of a ritual book for example, then at first the House would be on top of the world as the only avenue for magical transport. That is until some creative folk "reverse engineer" the method of how they are creating the portals and create, say, the Linked Portal ritual. Then the monopoly is in big trouble. At the very very least the houses would be on a down turn when it comes to their power base as more and more individuals are able to master the ritual and duplicate the service the house once provided solely. An industrial age society, which Eberron technically is, breeds competition and without a truly unique advantage I don't see the houses being anymore powerful than the average guild.
I can't say that I've seen the marks enough to say whether or not they're weak, but they do stick with the flavor of them pretty well.
What I want to respond to is the assumption that a 5% price break is insignificant as entire business in the modern world are based on this model. If you have a choice between paying 3600 GP or 3420 GP which would you take? And if there is no competition, your profit margin is even larger. Then understand that there are no anti-monopoly laws in Eberron, no break up of Standard Oil to be affected and our history is rife full of businesses going out of their way to be anti-competitive and its easy to see how by being first and having a built in production advantage is more than enough to ensure market dominance.
Keep in mind the Americas were discovered in reaction to anti-competitive market forces (spice trade monopoly) and you have an entire campaign built for you in that dragon mark...
What I want to respond to is the assumption that a 5% price break is insignificant as entire business in the modern world are based on this model. If you have a choice between paying 3600 GP or 3420 GP which would you take?
Hell, charge 3500gp, still beat the unadvantaged competitor's price and have another 80gp to invest in R&D, infrastructure or some really sweet clothes for the ball this summer.
"Charge what the market will bear."
Mark of Passage + Monk.
To anyone who believes that the marks don't grow in power, I have another example of a mark that grows exponentially as your level increases if you take the right powers...
Mark of Passage + Monk.
But it's not the mark that is growing, least not the benefits from the feat. Unless the book says otherwise the benefit from the mark that has been previewed so far is a +1 square to powers that shift or teleport. Not +1 per level, or + an ability modifier. Just +1. So sure you can play it as though the mark is growing as your character levels, but crunch wise the benefit appears to be constant.
I can't say that I've seen the marks enough to say whether or not they're weak, but they do stick with the flavor of them pretty well.
What I want to respond to is the assumption that a 5% price break is insignificant as entire business in the modern world are based on this model. If you have a choice between paying 3600 GP or 3420 GP which would you take? And if there is no competition, your profit margin is even larger. Then understand that there are no anti-monopoly laws in Eberron, no break up of Standard Oil to be affected and our history is rife full of businesses going out of their way to be anti-competitive and its easy to see how by being first and having a built in production advantage is more than enough to ensure market dominance.
Keep in mind the Americas were discovered in reaction to anti-competitive market forces (spice trade monopoly) and you have an entire campaign built for you in that dragon mark...
A price break would definitely help to explain the strength of the House's positions. Problem is there is no price break. It is not as though those with the mark are able to use the rituals for lower than normal cost, the feat the illustrious Hellcow speaks of is one I believe he made himself, a tactic that I will most likely employ as well. Just wish it was part of RAW. They don't even save the start up capital, in the sense that they need to purchase the ritual, but that wouldn't truly save much in the long run anyhow.
For example the Linked Portal ritual costs 680gp to buy and then 135gp to cast, meaning the difference between Company X and House Orien is now a savings of 680gp for the initial investment. Not exactly a huge advantage, unless you assume that Company X is purchasing the ritual for every employee individually as opposed to distributing it free. Not something I can imagine any company doing unless they had to and as was pointed out there is no regulatory body to make them do so. So even if they threw us that bone, it wouldn't be enough.
Does this help?
An yes, a random NPC migth be bale to take the feat, but a random NPC crafter will most likely never ever see anything beyond heroic tier. So a PC will eventually be a great crafter just by having one feat. Compared to 3rd edition were you had to take a specialised feat if you wanted to create anything at all. And these feats actually bring the artificer right back were he used to be. At the top of of the creation lader, without having to devote all of his class abilities to do it.
Hey, I am a fan of the master crafter feat, especially if it can be stacked with the Mark of Making. I just want to see some RAW that shows how it is possible for a PC Artificer to build something like a Lighting Rail or Creation Forge without either hiring NPCs to do it for him or desperate house ruling by the DM.
PS Let me appologize for the multiple posts, I have been reading the thread from the bottom up and responding to each post. In the future I'll try to finish reading and then respond in one if this is tiresome to anyone. I know it's feeling a bit silly to me.
Personally, I use a feat that provides Dragonmarked people with a +2 roll and 10% discount on the rituals associated with their feats. Mainly useful for NPCs (who don't actually use feats, but it's the premise that it exists in the world), but even a minor cost is enough to give the house as a whole a significant economic advantage. Free once per day doesn't work as well for me, because I want to emphasize that the Kundarak locksmith can work all day.
This is one area where I think the "NPCs use different rules than for PCs" concept shines. What's really more useful to a player? 10% discount, or 1/day free?
Obviously the 1/day. You may cast a ritual only once in a blue moon as a player, so the 10% discount would take a long time for you to see any appreciable gain. Once a day free means you may never have to spend components for the associated rituals, which is far cooler, and already has precedent with the Bard and Druid classes.
10% might make more sense for the Kundarak locksmith that can "go all day", but that's not really the concern of player-centric mechanics such as feats. The Kundarak locksmith doesn't even have the Mark of Warding feat, he just has a Mark of Warding. NPCs never have feats, just abilities. If you wanted to write up the Kundarak Locksmith as a PC, you'd give him an ability like
Dragonmarked Locksmith: The Kunarak Locksmith casts arcane lock with a 10% discount on the component cost.
There'd be no need to make a feat for him to take. if you want an NPC to do something, it just does it. When designing feats that a player could take, make sure it's attractive to the player.
But it's not the mark that is growing, least not the benefits from the feat. Unless the book says otherwise the benefit from the mark that has been previewed so far is a +1 square to powers that shift or teleport. Not +1 per level, or + an ability modifier. Just +1. So sure you can play it as though the mark is growing as your character levels, but crunch wise the benefit appears to be constant.
What I mean by "It's growing in power" is this...
Most Characters will use the mark of passage to shift or teleport an extra space when it becomes necessary.
Passage Monks though will see increased utility with the simple +1 as their power suite increases.
Lvl 1 - 5 Storms allows you to shift 1 squares, increased to 3 squares.
Lvl 15 - Way of the Winter Wind allows you to shift 2 (increased to 3) squares as an immediate reaction when you are hit by an attack.
Lvl 15 - Wandering Comet Strike allows you to attack then teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy within 10 squares of you. Depending on DM you may be able to teleport to a further out enemy, or if not, by RAW you are allowed to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy within 10 squares and are allowed to move an additional square during the teleport. Which can be useful for setting up combos that take advantage of reach attacks (Which monks can get) and can still eventually target enemies that are 30+ squares away, or if you have a few enemies who are 11 or 12 squares distant.
When designing feats that a player could take, make sure it's attractive to the player.
When you design feats you EXPECT players to take, make sure they're attractive to the players. The point of the feat I described earlier is, specifically, that it's NOT especially attractive to a PC. Magewright is not a PC path. But it's there to allow the PC to understand what a magewright IS (as the feat I describe is, essentially, "Dragonmarked Magewright") - a character who can perform a few specific rituals with a slight edge.
It's the parallel to the Magewright NPC class in 3.5 Eberron. A PC would never want to take levels in the class, which is why it's an NPC class. But it's there so we understand what defines a magewright.
You are quite correct that this is where the PC/NPC rules break shines in 4E. If I want to make a 1st-level Jorsco magewright with an arbitrary +15 to his Heal check, I can do it. The point of the feat is to let players have a sense of what the typical magewright is like and just why the houses have an economic edge in the world.
But again, the feat I've described ISN'T a substitute for a greater dragonmark. It's a feat for a dragonmarked magewright, a professional spellworker who makes a living performing rituals.
Once a day free means you may never have to spend components for the associated rituals, which is far cooler, and already has precedent with the Bard and Druid classes.
However, it also requires FAR more balancing between marks. If you get something for free, the difference between a mark that only provides access to 1st-3rd level rituals and one that has an 18th level ritual makes a HUGE difference when you become higher level to cast this. The critical example here is the Mark of Making. I'm sure you're not suggesting that a character should be able to use Enchant Magic Item for free once per day! This is still true for the 10% discount - Making is the one where it might possibly be worthwhile - but you'd still have to make a lot of things for it to pay off, while being able to churn out a free item a day would be crazy good. Essentially, my feat as described isn't supposed to be a great choice for PCs, which is precisely why you won't see anything like it in the EPG. If you're aiming one at PCs, make sure you don't go too far in the other direction!
What I mean by "It's growing in power" is this...
Xi_Mao and I are on the same page here. The benefit the mark provides doesn't change, but the powers it enhances do. It is enhancing more powerful effects, therefore it is more powerful. Beyond that, there is the question of flavor in the first place. For me, I like to say that the mark IS in some way the source of my character's powers. You COULD say that your Lyrandar storm sorcerer is 100% identical to the human storm sorcerer, and just has a feat that gives him an edge. I say that they are completely different... that the human learned to tap his power at Arcanix, but the Lyrandar focuses his energy through his mark - that it IS the eye of the storm for him, and the reason his powers have that edge over his counterparts. Thus, as his powers grow, they reflect his mark growing - because mark and power are one and the same. The mark isn't simply the extra gust of wind he gets when he summons lightning or thunder. It IS the lightning or thunder, the storm within him. For the Jorasco healer, the mark IS his focus for healing.
This is the reason I let my dragonmarked characters perform their rituals without actually possessing ritual books - because to me, the mark IS the ritual book. They still need residuum to power the ritual - but they don't need to read it in a book. They are the ritual made flesh.
What I mean by "It's growing in power" is this...
Rituals are another thing to consider. Whether or not you use any of the house rules anyone has suggested, dragonmarks as they stand provide access to a range of rituals, many of which a character won't be able to use until higher level. A first level character with the Mark of Healing can't cure disease with his mark until he reaches a higher level - thus, when he reaches that level, the power of his mark can be said to have grown. it's up to you to decide if the mark physically grows to reflect this.
The free ritual "once per day" idea seems reasonable to me, perhaps not as much as just a price discount. I agree with Hellcow when it concerns the effect not being balanced as you compare each mark. If the ritual lists could be expanded to include equally attractive benefits for each mark then the "once a day" idea works even better.
I personally would of aimed more at having the marks work like the channel divinity feats, but that air galleon has sailed.
The free ritual "once per day" idea seems reasonable to me, perhaps not as much as just a price discount. I agree with Hellcow when it concerns the effect not being balanced as you compare each mark. If the ritual lists could be expanded to include equally attractive benefits for each mark then the "once a day" idea works even better.
To reiterate one of Keith's points, you think giving the PCs a free Magic item with a level equal to or less than their level +2 every day is reasonable?
Man, I want to play in YOUR games of Eberron!;)
Find me a ritual you can do as a standard action and I will totally ban that from my once a day list. ;)
The shortest rituals will take 30 seconds, 5 rounds if time scale hasn't changed between editions. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, but I think it's fairly simple to take an hour out of every day to make someone's gear more awesome.
One: More feats is not the answer. Siberys shard focuses might be the answer. Or at least a better answer then eating up PC feats to explain things that are NPC concerns.
Two: The rituals that exists in all the hand books aren't all the rituals that exist within the game. They're just the rituals that an adventurer would bother using. There are other rituals that build the air ships and raise the city of Sharn into the sky. It's stuff like that that has probably given the Dragon Marked Houses a true monopoly in magic across Khorvaire. Not the Summon Steed ritual.
Three: There are certain types of gameplay that 4th Edition is not going to support in mainstream products. Empire building is one of them. I know it can be fun sometimes, but there are some things that drag the rest of the game down if you support it. And you know what, it is a good thing they aren't. Leave it up to the DM to figure out to make what his players want to build fun to build. One of the most interesting games I ever played had us running a bakery in one part of the game and arming a "keep" for eventual conflict in another. Those events where fun that if anything where held back by some of the rules created by official sources since the rules had to be as universal as possible.
The shortest rituals will take 30 seconds, 5 rounds if time scale hasn't changed between editions. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, but I think it's fairly simple to take an hour out of every day to make someone's gear more awesome.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I don't think enchant magic item should be on the free once a day list. I also not saying make a ritual a standard action or what have you, just giving my opinion on if someone should houserule it free to cast once per day. That's all. Nor am I trying to prove anything just giving my thoughts.
I was seeing it as something like this, least for the ritual benefits:
Mark of Making : You can perform any ritual from the creation category as if you had the ritual caster feat. You can also do one of the following rituals once per day at no cost.
BTW, there are rituals that only take 30 seconds to cast? I thought the shortest was 1 minute. Which book are they in?
Essentially, my feat as described isn't supposed to be a great choice for PCs, which is precisely why you won't see anything like it in the EPG.
I see what you're getting at, but my point was that the game mechanic designated as "feats" are something only players get. NPC stat blocks do not contain feats, just pertinent abilities.
What I'm saying is, in 4e if you want to show a player what an NPC magewright is, you don't confuse him with a subpar feat, you show him an NPC statblock with a "10% discount on these rituals" power.
However, it also requires FAR more balancing between marks. If you get something for free, the difference between a mark that only provides access to 1st-3rd level rituals and one that has an 18th level ritual makes a HUGE difference when you become higher level to cast this. The critical example here is the Mark of Making. I'm sure you're not suggesting that a character should be able to use Enchant Magic Item for free once per day!
Sovereigns no! My intention was for non-variable component costs to be subsumed, not handing out free magic items. I see what you mean on the balancing factor, though. I realize now I was operating on the false assumption that the rituals associated with each mark were roughly equal to each other. (I haven't given them a really solid look yet).
I think he means that you can take a 1 minute ritual, and half its casting time by a variety of means, such as castig it from a scroll, or having some Epic Destiny that halves casting time on certain rituals.
Duh, that makes perfect sense. That's what I get for not thinking outside the box, so to speak.
Though in my D&D games I've got a magic item that allows players to "Precast" rituals and expend them as a standard action. It ends up costing 150% for precast rituals though...