Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thaliost Jun 19, 2008 17:57:36	So when I'm going thru the druid sects part of Faiths of Eberron, I notice another confusing name on page 104. A renegade of the Greensingers, Anethelnas ir'Phiarlan. Obviously he's a member of the Phiarlan family, but the "ir" indicates also his membership in the nobel family. Could it be joining the Puritans that brought him rank in the nobel world, which also forced him to leave the House?
#2 mystrich Jun 19, 2008 21:40:21	My guess is it's a misprint and was supposed to be d'
#3 thaliost Jun 20, 2008 11:07:33	Yeah. Thinking twice, it's not very likely that joining the church will bring him nobility. Hellcow, could you help me with this please?
#4 ChaoticGood Jun 21, 2008 2:56:02	There's also the possibility that he is of noble birth, but not dragonmarked. Some members of the Houses simply forego the d'-prefix, leaving it as an honor to those who were blessed with the dragonmark.
#5 Hellcow Jun 22, 2008 10:08:08	Yeah. Thinking twice, it's not very likely that joining the church will bring him nobility. Hellcow, could you help me with this please? I'd also call it a misprint, since the Korth Edicts forbid a member of a dragonmarked house from holding rank in a noble family of Galifar.
#6 thaliost Jun 22, 2008 21:56:01	Thanks for the answer. Now I could spend less time on a reasonable background for such an NPC.
#7 mrockwell Jun 30, 2008 19:39:35	So, Keith (or anyone), if a female member of a dragonmarked house married a noble, would she NOT take her husband's name? Say Mary d'Smith married Bob ir'Jones. Her name is now: *Mary d'Smith *Mary ir'Jones *Mary d'Smith ir'Jones *Mary ir'Jones d'Smith *something else entirely Any thoughts?
#8 igotsmeakabob Jun 30, 2008 20:28:44	Mary d'Smith, I'd think. A dragonmarked member of a dragonmarked house... either that, or she'd keep both names. Probably the d' first, then ir'.
#9 ChaoticGood Jun 30, 2008 20:51:07	I'd also call it a misprint, since the Korth Edicts forbid a member of a dragonmarked house from holding rank in a noble family of Galifar. But Keith... the noble family to which this character belongs IS a dragonmarked house. It was my understanding that the "ir" prefix simply meant "of noble birth." Thus, shouldn't a non-marked member of a House be able to use that prefix with the House name just as any other nobleman would? As for the marriage question, my guess would be that her name would be Mary Jones d'Smith, indicating that she is now a member of the Jones family, but (absent the "ir") that she does not claim noble rank through it. Mary d'Smith Jones would be confusing because it could be interpreted to indicate that the dragonmarked family was called "Smith Jones."
#10 durskut Jun 30, 2008 21:19:26	The way I understand it, the Dragonmarked houses and Noble houses are completely separate after the Korth Edicts. Someone can be either one or the other, and only rarely does someone change from one to the other. The only notable example we have (not sure if the last name is said anywhere actually) is between the Vadalis heir and Queen Aurala. IIRC, he would now have an ir' and no rights of a dragonmarked person. in mrockwell's case (assuming the female gave up her connections/power) the name would be Mary ir'Jones. (though someone's sex is not the deciding factor, who is giving up wealth/land/nearly everything else is)
#11 mystrich Jun 30, 2008 21:21:14	So, Keith (or anyone), if a female member of a dragonmarked house married a noble, would she NOT take her husband's name? Say Mary d'Smith married Bob ir'Jones. Her name is now: *Mary d'Smith *Mary ir'Jones *Mary d'Smith ir'Jones *Mary ir'Jones d'Smith *something else entirely Any thoughts? If she'd probably go by d'House. Even if her father's name was Smith, the House name is usually used (at least formally), and she might refer to herself as "Mary Smith d'House". I'd say she'd also keep d'House (or use a similar hyphenated name) because the Houses hold even more wealth and power than the noble families. She might even change depending on where she is. IE. If she's at the Cannith enclave, d'Cannith will get her more service than ir'Jones. But if she needs to meet with a high ranking noble in her family, she'd probably send a message as ir'Jones. But Keith... the noble family to which this character belongs IS a dragonmarked house. It was my understanding that the "ir" prefix simply meant "of noble birth." Thus, shouldn't a non-marked member of a House be able to use that prefix with the House name just as any other nobleman would? The problem with this is that the Houses are not noble families, they are Dragonmarked houses. A non-marked member would be _____ Cannith, Sivis, Lyrandar, etc.
#12 ChaoticGood Jun 30, 2008 21:38:57	The heads of the houses hold the title of Baron. Does that not qualify as nobility? (Granted, they are a different kind of nobility...) As I read it, the Korth Edicts were basically about keeping the dragonmarked families from messing around in politics, not about who uses what prefixes on their name. I can sort of see your point, but I still don't see any particular problem with a non-marked heir using the "ir" prefix. It just means that the heir in question - in this case, a renegade, no less - has assumed the airs of nobility without actually belonging to a legally "noble" house.
#13 Hellcow Jul 01, 2008 13:36:42	But Keith... the noble family to which this character belongs IS a dragonmarked house. No, it's not. The Dragonmarked Houses are NOT nobility. They are mercantile families - under the Korth Edicts, they aren't even allowed to hold land. The Korth Edicts were put in place specifically because Galifar feared the power of the Dragonmarked Houses and wanted to ensure that they could not threaten the power of the aristocracy. Now, I don't actually have a copy of Dragonmarked on hand, so I don't know if the following section made it in - but here's the releveant section from the original manuscript. The Korth Edicts forbid any member of a dragonmarked house from holding a grant of land, and place limits on the size of house enclaves and the armed forces that can be garrisoned at an enclave. Special provisions are made for House Deneith, which has the right to assemble military forces for mercenary service. The edicts further specify that no member of the aristocracy of Galifar can be bound to a member of a dragonmarked house in marriage without one of the two giving up all heritage and rights. Since the houses do not own land, the edicts dictate a system of rents to be paid to the crown in exchange for the lands the houses require for their needs. So in the case of Mary d'Smith and Bob ir'Jones, either Bob is becoming a member of House Smith, or Mary is leaving House Smith to join the Jones family. This can be seen in City of Towers: Daine's vision was still slightly blurred, but he could see that the man was wearing the uniform of a captain; he squinted and suddenly the stranger's face came into focus. "Grazen?" he said, shocked. "Grazen d'Deneith?" The captain laughed and stood up. "For a moment I thought the guards had done you permanent damage. Mourner soldiers aren't well liked in Daggerwatch." He walked around the deck and offered Daine a hand, pulling him to his feet. "But it's Grazen ir'Tala now." Daine shook his head, trying to process this information. "What?" "What can I say?" Grazen ran a hand through his golden-brown hair and smiled brilliantly. "Love conquers all. I was a sentinel marshal back when we last saw each other, yes? I had an extended tour of duty in Sharn, pursuing a group of Lhazaar assassins. During my stay, I met a lovely young woman who just happened to be the sole heir of a wealthy estate, and after some thought, I decided to leave the house and settle in Sharn. It may sound like madness, I know, but I'm not the first to leave his house voluntarily." In order to marry her, he HAD to leave the house - at least under the Korth edicts. Now, following the war, the ability of the nations to enforce the Korth Edicts is in question - but that's how it's always been. And the title of baron has a different meaning for the dragonmarked houses than for the nobility; think of it as "Rail Baron".
#14 mrockwell Jul 01, 2008 15:19:23	Thanks, Keith! That was exactly what I needed to know!