Open Letter to the Designers of Eberron 4e: Appendix (Quori) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 grafster Apr 21, 2008 0:57:27	Open Letter to the Designers of Eberron 4e: Appendix (Quori) *********** Quori move in "perfect accord with the plans formulated in the Region of Dreams" (pg 53 Secrets of Sarlona). Each one a seasons tatical geniuses, acting in perfect tandem with it's brethren using what is effectively an instant extra-dimensional communication network. They're so powerful, so horrific, so focused, so secretive that you'd need to be epic level to survive more than 24 hours after you ** them off the first time. And it's pretty easy to them off. Below I compare the quori with the Rakshasa populated Lords of Dust. The Lords of Dust are primordial evil that once ruled over all of Eberron including the dragons themselves. They're the classic epic bad guys. So how do the quori stack up against the classic epic evil of the setting? Lets see. **************** Quori Attributes 1. They're backed up by a primal force, currently trapped, which if the stars are right threatens the life of everything on Khorvaire. (standard villain stuff) 2. They are held back from appearing in Eberron by ancient mystical effect produced by the giants, working to break free 3. Almost complete racial unity; while rebels exist in a theoretical basis in practicality they're extremely rare. Even the very rare rebel still works for the good of the Quori (and the detriment of everyone else) (e.g. Lord Kaltaresh) 4. Power source (psionics) isn't widely known; it's correspondingly hard to identify and counter 5. Instant communication, flawless planning - a Quori can transport instantly to other Quori in Dal Quor, due to "slow time" of the plane, they can make elaborate plans, do extensive research & develop the perfect plan to annihilate it's foes and put it into effect 6. Can affect the world around them without being permanently threatened themselves; act through disposable inspired (almost like free willed clones bodies); true forms are safe on Dal Quor 7. Can operate personally in multiple locations at once (experienced empty vessels effectively become duplicates of the quori; in any case they are enthusiastic willing servitors) 8. High level psionic powers 9. Superior irresistible intelligence gathering. In addition to the fact that their "normal" scrying techniques are highly resistant to conventional countermeasures (i.e. psionics) Quori can also gather intelligence by entering dreams, manipulating the dreams of its victims to pull out hidden information, etc 10. Completely secret -- per RAW your average character to knows nothing about the Quori; and people who do know (on Khorvaire just the Kalashtar really) never tip you off 11. Their primary base of operations, Sarlona, is immune (or at least invisible to) the Draconic Prophesy (it's not clear whether this applies to quori everywhere, or only if they operate on Sarlona) 12. Can only possess willing individuals (but they have mind seed and similar psionic abilities -- and charm powers will apparently be a purview of psionics in 4e) 13. Dream combat (in story terms the quori can destroy countries with this power, and it's no slouch in practical terms either. A du'ulora can do double damage nightmares and a kalaraq can do 27 DC nightmares that attack all mental stats three times a night) Lords of Dust (Rakshasa) Attributes 1. They're backed up by a primal force, currently trapped, which if the stars are right, threatens the life of everything on Khorvaire. (standard villain stuff) 2. Their high-epic level masters are imprisoned by ancient mystical effect produced by the couatls and dragons, their (epic to heroic level servitors: primarily Rakshasa) are working to free them 3. Completely fractious, Rakshasa and other demons see each other as threats and deceive and trick each other as a matter of course. Many will actively work to thwart another if it's to their advantage and offer aid only when it suits them. 4. Arcane magic is default in Khorvaire; demon fighting equipment, methods, PrCs are widely known 5. Very weak communication. Most only communicate with others of their when they periodically (and infrequently) meet by physically traveling to designated (inconveniently located) neutral sites; even those that do communicate regularly with others are usually just working in a small group 6. They must be physically present, often disguised, during their major deceptions. Per examples in the books a Rakshasa who's corrupting a noble is usually there, at ground zero. 7. Limited to being in one place at one time 8. High level magic powers 9. Weak intelligence gathering. While individually powerful each Rakshasa is limited to their own abilities. They may have other demons who help them, but the information provided will be suspect. Rakshasa are great intelligence gatherers compared with an average individual but weak compared to the average countries spy network. 10. Somewhat secret. Your average character has heard of demons and knows that they are evil and a corrupting influence. Someone with education knows about the Age of Demons. If you worship the Silver Flame you believe that demons and other dark forces exist and can be contained within Eberron by the power of the Silver Flame. 11. Trapped in the prophesy like everyone else (outside of Sarlona) 12. Can possess unwilling individuals 13. Nothing like dream invasion =Can Rakshasa corrupt someone and get access to a spy network? Of course. But so can the quori. In fact a quori who's tapped a spy network can and will share info received in near-real time with all other quori. The fiends are generally flying solo or in small groups. So they're equal in 3 areas (#1, #2, #8). Fiends have a slight advantage in one area (#12 but maybe mitigated even further if psionics are more focused on charm in 4e) and a disadvantage in #10. And the quori blow Rakshasa away in the other [colpr=red]EIGHT CATEGORIES[/color]. Per KB the LoD "ARE the eternal, primal evil – the shadow that remains from the dawn of Eberron". Duking it out with the Lords of Dust can easily stretch up into the epic levels (KB's Savage Tides translates Demogorgon as a "lesser lesser lord of the Age of Demons—less powerful than the Overlords, but more powerful than any rakshasa.") So if the Lords of Dust are supposed to be epic what are the quori? Super epic on crack with a side of TPK? I do realize that the quori are one of the best innovations of Eberron, completely original, completely brilliant. They're the uber bad of the setting. The Madness of Last King of Galifar has "quori" written all over it. The Sundering maps almost perfectly to the Last War. There is an ultimate adventure path waiting to be written about the coming quori invasion, with the PCs rushing to trigger the turning of the age, awaken the new Quor Tarai, and transform the "dreamspace" (from SoS) into the "new Qual Dar" before they can launch their attack. And if you print it I will buy two copies and do unspeakable (but oh so enjoyable) things to one of them. Do they really need to be so totally uber, so completely perfect, so utterly undefeatable? I realize that in a novel, where the heroes are destined to win and everyone knows it, the "how will the author get them out of this unbelievably dangerous totally inescapable situation" is part of the fun. But Eberron is -also- a campaign setting for a roleplaying game. Certain things that may be fine for a novel do -not- work for RPG settings. Quori vs. Rakshasa \| Who's more personally powerful? Both are fundamentally manipulators, so physical confrontation is not the end-all-be-all. But both quori and demons will push the conflict physical if they have to, so who has the advantage is worth considering. Obviously as an edition changes this all gets hazy but looking purely at 3.5... I'd say that they're equally "powerful" on average. A quori possessing an 18th level psion is matched with a Rakshasa with 8 levels of sorcerer to my mind. I don't think that there is any reason to argue that one group is more likely to have high powered actors than another. The Rakshasa has it's fiendish traits but a quori has psionics and access to all the wonderful cheesy little feats that have been produces for PCs. And the Quori also has a suite of different powers availible. One quori will have several psions, soulknives, monks and whatever else they feel like possessing. In a pinch they could cast their nets even wider, snagging a loyal shifter assassin or even an classed ogre mage. But the comparision actually masks how one-sided a real conflict would be. Even if the Rakshasa wins the quori can just hop out, grab it's 16th level soulknife body, a squad of elite soldiers and have a nomad follower teleport them back to the same spot. An "even" match up (with comparable CRs/ECLs), will invariably lead to smeared Rakshasa. And that's without the quori calling for help from it's fanatically loyal brethren. A Rakshasa who could hold off a Hashalaq-possessed empty vessel without a sweat is going to mighty unhappy when a squad of it's du'ulora buddies show up in combat classed empty vessels. And, of course, the quori are never in any real danger. They can always withdraw, use psionic powers the Rakshasa aren't familiar with, and probably can't identify or resist, to suss out it's weak spots before retaliating. And even assuming that the Rakshasa manages to pull off something brilliant (trapping the quori in some sort of prision) they're really just signing their own death warrant. The quori as a whole move together, constantly communicating with each other in the time-slowed Dal Quor. It's compatriots will know about it's conflict with the Rakshasa. By comparison a quori taking out a Lord of Dust may not even be noted for decades. So, even if they're matched-round-to-round, quori will ulitmately dominate physical conflicts since they can effectively have a bunch of "extra lives" and a suite of different combat abilities to call upon. (This is without taking into account that the relative ease with which a quori can find a paladin or other demon hunter to kill a Rakshasa. Khorvaire, after all, has a whole religion dedicated to hunting demons. By comparision the Rakshasa are going to have a devil of a time finding someone who can kill the empty vessel they think is the quori on Sarlona, and just -can't- touch them on their home plane.)
#2 Hellcow Apr 22, 2008 11:26:27	If you haven't already, I would suggest checking out this article and "Eternal Evil", the Lords of Dust article in Dragon #337. Setting aside other issues (such as "The Limits of Mind Seed" from page 65 of SoS), one of the critical points is that both Quori and Rakshasa are not human and do not react to things in the same way that humans will. First you have the question of whether it's even worth their time to eliminate the PCs. When you're dealing with someone who's been alive for 350,000 years, human life already is incredibly fragile. How badly did the PCs actually hurt the organization? At any given time, the DD has dozens or hundreds of schemes afoot. Have the PCs actually become a true, serious threat - or have they just set things back for a few years? Heck, a setback of a century is still almost nothing in the eyes of the quori. And at least initially you have to factor in their immortal arrogance, and the assumption that even though you got lucky once, the odds of you managing to pose a threat again are minimal. But let's assume that they've done something so terrible that it can't be ignored or let slide. Is a simple, quick death the answer? I'm a Lord of Dust - hundreds of thousands of years old. I've been working on a scheme since before Galifar existed. And you've just blown it for me, and it's going to be at least a thousand years before the stars will be right again. Am I just going to KILL you? Where's the fun in that? Now that you've spoiled my scheme, I might as well devote the next decade to vengeance on you. The same holds true for the quori. If you've done something bad enough to truly earn their ire, they'll want to make you suffer... and that takes time. They are shapers of dreams; they may actually HELP you, arranging to give you glory and fame - so it will be all the worse when they finally snatch it away. They won't mind seed YOU - they'll mind seed your kid sister. Again, they aren't in any sort of hurry, and they don't consider mortals to be true threats. So they can afford to make a game of it, slowly working towards final vengeance. And then there's the third possibility: that they're keeping you alive because they have a use for you. Yes, YOU may think you've spoiled their big plan; but perhaps that's just the first part of an even larger plan. This falls into the hands of the DM who decides to use either group. Because they ARE both extremely powerful - so an immediate question to ask is why they won't kill troublesome PCs. A common approach is to say that PCs are lynchpins of the Prophecy, and that as such they are too valuable to simply remove from the board. If your first attempts to manipulate them failed, you'd rather try again than just waste them. So personally, I see the Aurum or House Thuranni as more direct threats to PC life and limb because they ARE human and they do see the world as we do. You $&#* over the Aurum boss and he'll take a contract out on your life; he's not looking at what's going to happen in the world a century from now, he doesn't give a damn about your role in the Prophecy, he just wants immediate vengeance. But because the Quori and the Lords of Dust are so inhuman, they won't always act as the mortal crimelord will... and if anything, this should be more frightening. Because either they have some use planned for you, or they're working on a terrible vengeance that could come to fruition at any time (or they may consider you insignificant and be ignoring you - but you'll never know until it's too late!). Obviously this doesn't change the basic point that this sort of thing needs to be clarified in the core book. But that's essentially how I see it.
#3 Hellcow Apr 22, 2008 12:26:02	[Deleted]
#4 smug Apr 22, 2008 20:35:53	[EDIT] Never mind. I don't want to start an argument. This is a letter to the designers, not a debate - and at least one of the designers has seen it, so there it is.
#5 smug Apr 22, 2008 21:57:17	[Edit] See above. Though with that said, I do think you're underestimating the Lords of Dust.
#6 grafster Apr 22, 2008 22:31:57	I'll come back soonish and see if I can provide pleasant non-combative counterpoints. One thing I just have to touched upon (and anticipated really): First you have the question of whether it's even worth their time to eliminate the PCs. I don't really know how I can possibly argue about this without getting a bit fired up. The short response is: I don't think you can possibly mean "what PCs do should never matter to the quori because the quori are so uber and the PCs are so irrelevant". But that's the only possible interpretation of that line (unless the PCs don't matter or the quori are stupid and don't notice what the PCs are doing, which seems 1) manifestly unlikely 2) isn't implicit in anything you're saying) In every other aspect Eberron embraces the idea that "the PCs matter". Why are you so locked onto the idea that the quori, in order to be meaningful badguys, have to be soooooo much more awesome than the PCs actions are necessarily meaningless. Are the quori really supposed to occupy the Azathoth sloth? Do you really think that's the best thing for Eberron as a DnD setting? There are some similarities between the dreaming dark and Azathoth of course t[INDENT]he ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demoniac flute held in nameless paws H.P. Lovecraft, The Haunter of the Dark[/INDENT] That is a lot like the Dreaming Dark swirling in the center of Dal Quor...
#7 rauric Apr 22, 2008 22:57:21	They are dangerous because of their alien nature. Anyway it is all up to a DM. A Dm can have the palyers kill a quori and that is that or they can kill one and open up a whole bad can of worms. Look at them and what they are and what they want. They are not the Aurum or Blood of Vol or some insane artificer. They get ya in your dreams! They are fighting for their races survival. They will do anything to win because it is all or nothing with them. If a PC stops its plan it might not mean anything to them. I am sure they have had "setbacks" with other adventurers. Sometimes it is best just to let them go so they can move on with their next adventure. A group that hounds a certain quori though and even kill/kills one are a very real threat along the Kalashatar line.
#8 Hellcow Apr 23, 2008 0:37:03	I'The short response is: I don't think you can possibly mean "what PCs do should never matter to the quori because the quori are so uber and the PCs are so irrelevant". You are correct. That isn't remotely what I mean. Have you read the Dreaming Dark novels, Grafster? Because it's a perfect example, in my mind, of what I am talking about. I'll go ahead and commit a minor spoiler by revealing that in the course of the novels, the protaganists foil a plot of the Dreaming Dark. In fact, they foil a plot that could, if it were not stopped, have destroyed Khorvaire as we know it. They stop this plot. And in my opinion, they are not going to be killed the next day, or the day after, because to il-Lashtavar itself, they remain irrelevant. What they have done is INCREDIBLY relevant to Eberron. It changed the fate of the world. And yet, to the Dreaming Dark itself, it is one of a hundred plots that are in motion, all of which are simply short-cuts to the default "We will take centuries to turn the people of Khorvaire upon themselves and get them to welcome us as their saviors" - and by the time THAT plan comes to fruition, the protaganists of the Dreaming Dark series will have all died of old age (well, except possibly for the warforged). Would it have been convenient if this plan had worked out? Absolutely. But its failure is not the end of the world for il-Lashtavar; again, it was an attempted shortcut to the default plan that has already been in the works for centuries. From the view of il-Lashtavar, the odds that these particular humans will stumble into another plan and foil that one too are astronomically low. And even if they do THAT, unless they serious threaten to cause the turn of the age or unless il-Lashtavar believes that the age will turn in the immediate future, it STILL has the "We'll get to it in a thousand years." Set aside Azazthoth, and look to Cthulhu in "The Call of Cthulhu". For a moment, the stars were right and R'lyeh rose. For a moment, we could have been doomed. Then the crisis was averted... but the story ends on the note that the stars will eventually be right again. That's the viewpoint of the Dreaming Dark. It's always looking to the next time, and by that next time you'll be dead even if they do nothing at all. Beyond that, I have to agree with the previous post - their plans are only flawless and perfectly executed if you make them so. I could take ten extra days to plan a bank job, and still have the entire thing screwed up because the guard got a call on his cell phone, paused, and didn't follow the patrol schedule he was supposed to. They often manipulate people through dreams and telepathic prodding, but if the subject of this manipulation isn't actually being possessed, he can always act in an unpredictable manner. So my point is that the heroes of The Dreaming Dark were anything but irrelevant: THEY SAVED THE WORLD ITSELF! But this doesn't mean that they pose an ongoing threat to il-Lashtavar. If the Devourer of Dreams takes an interest in revenge, he has no reason to make it swift; he can savor it, and take years in unfolding it. But ultimately this comes back to the question of what you want to do with the Inspired and the Dreaming Dark. In creating them, I never intended them to be a force the PCs will ever completely defeat and destroy. They rule an entire country, and the turn of the age and destruction of the Dreaming Dark would effectively shatter Riedra. I always intended them to serve the role of backdrop villain - with plans that threaten Khorvaire but which will take decades to come to pass. You deal with their minor plans because their minor plans are the only ones moving fast enough for you to encounter. You can expose and destroy the thieves' guild that they suborned in Fairhaven, and in so doing, you are performing a heroic action that makes Khorvaire a safer place; you may even stop the planned assassination of Queen Aurala, which would, if successful, send Aundair into a frenzy of vengeance and restar the Last War. And in so doing, you will save hundreds of thousands of lives. From your perspective, as a mortal, this is a huge achievement, and you have every right to be proud. You have accomplished one of the great heroic deeds of the age. But il-Lashtavar, like Cthulhu, simply sees it as a trivial setback. Waiting another ten for the next scheme to unfold - a scheme which is already underway and taking place halfway across the world - is fine. Does this mean that the PCs can't ever stop the Dreaming Dark? Not at all. The Dreaming Dark CAN be destroyed by turning the age. If you want to make that possible and determine the consequences, all you have to do is decide how it can be achieved. But here I do believe that they suffer from immense arrogance. The Devourer of Dreams is 350,000 years old. He may have personally set the Last War in motion by manipulating the dreams of King Jarot - an action which, if true, he did over the course of decades. So the PC got lucky and foiled a scheme; clearly this was luck on the part of the mortal and flawed effort on the part of the Quori handling the matter. The idea that such a mortal could truly bring down il-Lashtavar is ludicrous (or so he thinks). Perhaps he will decide to make the mortal pay... but he can take his time in doing it. Another example of this, on a much smaller scale, would be the villain of the novel (not the movie) Ghost Story. Here again you have a spirit that is so self-assured in its own immortality and superiority to humans that it toys with them instead of simply killing them. Because those jaded immortals need an amusement to pass the time. Like flies to wanton boys, so are you to the Quori. The issue as I see it is that this behavior in no way means that the PCs ARE insignificant, that the PCs CANNOT save Eberron from the Quori or even destroy il-Lashtavar itself. But the Dreaming Dark believes that they are insignificant, that they cannot save Eberron (a second time, at least), and that they CERTAINLY can't dstory il-Lashtavar. And this is an example of how Quori reasoning isn't flawless; this arrogance could be their undoing, like that of so many master villains before them. Pulp is a central part of Eberron. The villain who is objectively superior to the hero in every way and yet who is brought down by the hero because of both the hero's ingenuity and integrety and the villains' short-sighted arrogance is a staple of the pulps. And that's what you have here.
#9 Hellcow Apr 23, 2008 1:02:56	One more point, lest it get lost in the shuffle: I agree with the basic point you're making with this post, Grafster. As things stand, the current ECS provides minimal information about the Dreaming Dark. Certainly it provides insufficient data to address this question of why they don't kill any PC who crosses their path. This is exactly the sort of issue that should be addressed in a 4E Eberron book in order to make the group more useable from the start for a DM who starts D&D with 4E, and clarify things for DMs who have been playing Eberron from the begining. It's always been my intention that PCs could save the world from the Dreaming Dark - as my novel shows. It's likewise been my intention that such setbacks will be insignificant to the Dreaming Dark, because it operates on such an immense scale. And yet, because of the nature of Dal Quor, it is even possible for the PCs to find a way to destroy il-Lashtavar once and for all... and, again, I expect the Dreaming Dark itself to believe that such a thing is impossible. If the Quori came to believe that the age will turn in 1000 YK, I'd expect a HUGE change in their attitude and far more ruthless behavior towards opposition. But the way I see things, the Quori still believe that they have centuries to work with, that they can continue to reenact the Sundering in Khorvaire... and that all of these other schemes are essentially games to pass the time. If one of them works, great for them and doom for us. But if not, there's always another iron in the fire. Nonetheless, this is not clear in the ECS as it stands.
#10 Hellcow Apr 23, 2008 1:40:52	In every other aspect Eberron embraces the idea that "the PCs matter". Why are you so locked onto the idea that the quori, in order to be meaningful badguys, have to be soooooo much more awesome than the PCs actions are necessarily meaningless. I'm not sure if I missed this the first time, but just to touch on this again: I think we just have different ideas of what it means for the PC's actions to be "meaningless". If the PCs prevent the assassination of Aurala and the subsequent return to war, that's not meaningless at all; they've just saved thousands of lives. And quite possibly, they were the only ones who could do it. It's not meaningless to them. It's not meaningless to Khorvaire. It's certainly not meaningless to Aurala. But that doesn't change the fact that to the Dreaming Dark it may only be a minor setback, the foiling of one of a hundred plans. That's not because the Dreaming Dark is more awesome than the PCs; it's because is an entity of an entirely different nature than they are. In many ways il-Lashtavar is exactly Azazthoth - a vast, ancient, and inhuman force lingering on another plane of existence, whose schemes cannot be fully understood even by those who consider themselves its children. It is something completely different from the Lord of Blades or Erandis d'Vol, both individuals with fanatical followers who you can face in one-on-one battle. It is the essence of nightmare itself, an entire plane of existence. Just as an investigator doesn't DESTROY Cthulhu, I don't expect an adventurer to destroy il-Lashtavar, even though it actually is possible by turning the age. The existence of the Quori and the Dreaming Dark drives the story of Riedra and Adar, the kalashtar and the Inspired, the Path of Light, and more. It's designed to be a part of the foundation of the setting. Personally, I don't want people dealing with the Dreaming Dark as a whole; I want them dealing with a particular agent of the Dark (which is what I suggest in the web article I link to above). They can foil the plans that agent is attached to. If they work at it, they could even bind or destroy that agent, using things like lifebind. Why doesn't that agent bring in every last kalaraq to help? Because even if it threatens the world, her mission is just one of a hundred the Dreaming Dark is involved with. She may confer with her allies, aprise her superiors, but it is also her mission; she may get some tsucora granted to help her out or get a squad of Inspired soldiers, but those kalaraq are involved in their own missions, or dealing with duties on Dal Quor (even demon princes have to work!). If the actions of the players truly and unquestionably threaten il-Lashtavar itself, then things will be different - which is exactly why I DON'T generally want them to threaten il-Lashtavar itself. It is the job of the PCs to save the world from whatever threats arise; but the Dreaming Dark is a force that, by its design, can always return to threaten the world again (unless the age turns, of course... which PCs could try to make happen). Anyhow, I recognize the basic point you have raised, and it's a valid one. I'll bring it to the attention of the other designers. And now I'm going to stop posting here, since I need to get back to work. Thanks for raising your concerns, and I hope you'll be more satisfied with how it comes across in 4E.
#11 grafster Apr 23, 2008 22:24:29	I guess I didn't say it but I think the Lords of Dust are fantastic. I really really do. It's not a flavor thing (though I love the idea of native fiends and the fact that the "main guys" are Rakshasa and not "another dude with red-skin and horns"); or rather it's not just a flavor thing but also it's a structure thing. They work perfectly, you can have PCs bump into them at any level, and it's plausible that the Rakshasa won't kill them. Short list of possible reasons the PCs live when facing the LoD prophesy fiends think they work for the dragons, don't wanna start that war again right now -- anyway the Chamber's will get new patsies anyway; best they keep using ones the LoD already know about want to corrupt them slowly use them as dupes later don't have the capability/inclination to track them --isolated from each other, so "word" of the PCs doesn't spread don't think humans are worth their time demonic arrogance
#12 Hellcow Apr 25, 2008 11:33:47	Using the PCs as patsies is good, but it runs the risk, I think of marginalizing the PCs decisions even further. Unless the PCs can turn the tables somehow. And if you've read the Dreaming Dark novels, Show that's exactly what the second two books are about
#13 horatioatthebridge May 06, 2008 22:21:02	Warning: Spoilers for old TV shows may follow. Proceed at your own risk. One alternate direction I'm interested in taking the Quori is making them more like the Shadows or the Vorlon from Babylon 5. Yeah, they're this uber-powerful, unstoppable force, but in the end John Sheridan stands up to them and says "Get out of my galaxy!" That's a compelling story, and it's worth considering how it might be told in Eberron. First things first, it's an epic story and that should be a major consideration--the PCs need big guns to take on the Quori. Second, it's important to point out that John Sheridan got the best of both worlds--he figured out how to end the cycle of war without "casting an entire continent into chaos." The third thing to consider is that the Quori aren't the Shadows or the Vorlon--they're kind of in the middle, they have no major opponent, and their manipulation means more to them than getting the lesser races to do what they want. They have to win or they're all going to die. Their response to John Sheridan saying "Get out!" would be to vaporize him. So, what are the levers that can be used to turn the Quori? The big thing is the turning of the age. As Hellcow pointed out, you can get the age to turn faster by knocking out their linchpin (Riedra), though it will be at the cost of destroying a stable, peaceful civilization. At this point, I'd like to go back to B5: this is not how Sheridan won--he didn't go about stopping the Shadows' and the Vorlon's every move. John Sheridan didn't focus on foiling the plans of the Shadows and Vorlons, but instead went and made his own plan. It seems the key isn't to foil the Quori, but rather to come up with a new plan that takes them by surprise--a way to turn the age that they didn't anticipate. So, what if the PCs build an eldritch machine? Maybe they could make something that turns the massive network of hanbalas against the Quori, so instead of diverting energy to keep the age static, their energy is diverted to turn the age? Or what if the PCs manage to make the schemes of the Quori known to all of Khorvaire (Serenity "can't stop the signal" style), and then the khalashtar lead the Five Nations in a continent-wide focused meditation to turn the age on those bastards that led us to 100 years of war? Or just get a crap-ton of new converts, and the turning of the age is accelerated a few centuries, just enough to turn the age before Khorvaire falls? Or what if the PCs follow the adventure laid out in Secrets of Sarlona and protect Adar just long enough for the age to turn? Or, you could run an Angel style game and murder every last one of the Dreaming Dark's agents, setting them back hundreds of years...just in time for the age to change (I think the Atavists are gunning for this one). It's important to note at this point that the Quori adventures I've described here are counter to the way the designer (Hellcow) intended them to be played. Which, I think, he'd be fine with. Still, this is not a pulp story anymore. It's a science fiction story, and those are still good stories and I think a lot of people want to play them. They're just not, you know, very pulpy. I actually think it's kind of cool that the campaign setting is flexible enough to accommodate stories outside of its genre like that...
#14 grafster May 16, 2008 1:19:56	[EDIT] Never mind. I don't want to start an argument. This is a letter to the designers, not a debate - and at least one of the designers has seen it, so there it is. Though it's pretty late to come back and say it but... it was never my intent to squelch debate. I'm happy to discuss debate the LoD or anything else. Though, I just wanted to preface it by saying that I think the LoD are very cool and almost note-perfect as a villianous group. My assertions (largely already addressed and certainly not worth repeated) had to do with the quori's imperfections relative to the platonic idea of villiany (visa vie their use as a story tool) that I see the LoD being. So I wasn't saying "they be weak" or anything. The first draft of Shadows of the Last War actually ended the same way, with Garrow taking the schema and the discovery that Eladren was working for Cannith East (and I say this because it's not how the module ended up, so it's not a spoiler)... so the PCs have handed the EC a superweapon. With the understanding that the NEXT adventure would then involve them going and getting it back - showing the people who had used them as patsies that they'd underestimated the heroes' abilities. If you can, can you tell us why you changed it? The other way I'd look at it is a grandmaster playing chess in the park with a hundred people at once. The fact of the matter is that he will lose a few games. But he's not going to panic the first time he loses one. He won't think of that person as an equal; that person was playing a single game and got lucky, while he's playing a hundred games. Besides, spending too much time worrying about the outcome of that game could distract him from the other 99. And as soon as the table is cleared, he'll start ANOTHER game. Now he loses a second game. He may not even notice it's the same guy (unless the quori agent involved is the same one). I like this analogy even better than the last one. I guess I always imagined the lower tier quori as being a bit less conceited. Naturally though, just because a bear smells something sweet and comes in through your screen door to mess up your kitchen so long as it leaves quickly you don't necessarily feel the need to go get your shotgun and go after it. Errr... Maybe I should leave the analogies to you. Anyway I don't know if you could put the chess-master-in-the-park as a sidebar in the book, but it's very very strong analogy for someone coming at it from my angle. If a short-cut appears, they'll certainly try it; but if it fails (again, allowing the PCs to save the world from Quori domination) it's not the end of everything for the Quori, because they've always got that two-century plan in the hopper. This again is something that really helps someone coming at it from my angle. deleted terrible analogy (Ok. Definitely stopping with the analogies now). So, what if the PCs build an eldritch machine? Maybe they could make something that turns the massive network of hanbalas against the Quori, so instead of diverting energy to keep the age static, their energy is diverted to turn the age? Or what if the PCs manage to make the schemes of the Quori known to all of Khorvaire (Serenity "can't stop the signal" style), and then the khalashtar lead the Five Nations in a continent-wide focused meditation to turn the age on those bastards that led us to 100 years of war? Or just get a crap-ton of new converts, and the turning of the age is accelerated a few centuries, just enough to turn the age before Khorvaire falls? Or what if the PCs follow the adventure laid out in Secrets of Sarlona and protect Adar just long enough for the age to turn? Or, you could run an Angel style game and murder every last one of the Dreaming Dark's agents, setting them back hundreds of years...just in time for the age to change (I think the Atavists are gunning for this one). You'd be awesome to have as a player. Obviously this gets to the question "how much to the PCs know about the DD/quori"; but as Smug as others have pointed out there are vehicles (Path of Light religious texts, the shared Kalashtar memories) that can get you there. My only issues would be that the last two suggestions "protecting Adar until the age turns" or "murder every last DD agent" bang up against some of my issues. Protecting Adar requires either that 1) the quori/DD not know that the age is turning or 2) not be powerful enough to break Adar if they had to. Of course it could be a case of the PCs holding them off for long enough to convince the dragons that they need to get involved. As for murdering every last DD agent? I've only seen the first (or maybe first and second) seasons of Angle but I think killing all of them would be.... difficult. I think, even if you discount you average citizenry of Sarlona, the low level goons, the army and so forth there are probably still a lot of agents. How many empty vessles? 100,000 is probably too many but I'd say 10s of thousands. And they have sympathetic servants as probably at least as many.... That's.... a lot of killing. Assuming, all in, you have around 50,000 and you could take out 100 a day that's a year, four months and around 13 days of killing. I'm not saying it's not possible, this is DnD, but it's a lot of fighting. For me, at least, in a "kill 'em all" campaign I think I'd get to the tipping point as a DM where I'd say that, absent support from some big force (the Dragons for instance) the party would eventually be TPK'd. I'd let them roll it out, but after agent 1000, or 10,000 or whatever the DD would get off it's big gibbering-center-of-the-mad-plane-of-dreams-butt and say "open season" and I'd write up say 20 20th level empty souls (maybe some liches that got raised for the event; or some really powerful people that got mind seeded especially for the occasion) and have them deploy time stop and save or die powers/spells until the PCs started rolling '1's. Ideally it'd be like Things to do in Denver when you're dead and most of the PCs would get to hang out for a few days on Dolurrh and drink boat drinks before forgetting everything, but eventually my simulationist self would just put a stop to it.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

grafster

Apr 21, 2008 0:57:27

Open Letter to the Designers of Eberron 4e: Appendix (Quori)

*************
Quori move in "perfect accord with the plans formulated in the Region of Dreams" (pg 53 Secrets of Sarlona).
Each one a seasons tatical geniuses, acting in perfect tandem with it's brethren using what is effectively an instant extra-dimensional communication network.
They're so powerful, so horrific, so focused, so secretive that you'd need to be epic level to survive more than 24 hours after you ****** them off the first time.
And it's pretty easy to **** them off.

Below I compare the quori with the Rakshasa populated Lords of Dust. The Lords of Dust are primordial evil that once ruled over all of Eberron including the dragons themselves. They're the classic epic bad guys.

So how do the quori stack up against the classic epic evil of the setting?
Lets see.
******************

Quori Attributes
1. They're backed up by a primal force, currently trapped, which if the stars are right threatens the life of everything on Khorvaire. (standard villain stuff)
2. They are held back from appearing in Eberron by ancient mystical effect produced by the giants, working to break free
3. Almost complete racial unity; while rebels exist in a theoretical basis in practicality they're extremely rare. Even the very rare rebel still works for the good of the Quori (and the detriment of everyone else) (e.g. Lord Kaltaresh)
4. Power source (psionics) isn't widely known; it's correspondingly hard to identify and counter
5. Instant communication, flawless planning - a Quori can transport instantly to other Quori in Dal Quor, due to "slow time" of the plane, they can make elaborate plans, do extensive research & develop the perfect plan to annihilate it's foes and put it into effect
6. Can affect the world around them without being permanently threatened themselves; act through disposable inspired (almost like free willed clones bodies); true forms are safe on Dal Quor
7. Can operate personally in multiple locations at once (experienced empty vessels effectively become duplicates of the quori; in any case they are enthusiastic willing servitors)
8. High level psionic powers
9. Superior irresistible intelligence gathering. In addition to the fact that their "normal" scrying techniques are highly resistant to conventional countermeasures (i.e. psionics) Quori can also gather intelligence by entering dreams, manipulating the dreams of its victims to pull out hidden information, etc
10. Completely secret -- per RAW your average character to knows nothing about the Quori; and people who do know (on Khorvaire just the Kalashtar really) never tip you off
11. Their primary base of operations, Sarlona, is immune (or at least invisible to) the Draconic Prophesy (it's not clear whether this applies to quori everywhere, or only if they operate on Sarlona)
12. Can only possess willing individuals (but they have mind seed and similar psionic abilities -- and charm powers will apparently be a purview of psionics in 4e)
13. Dream combat (in story terms the quori can destroy countries with this power, and it's no slouch in practical terms either. A du'ulora can do double damage nightmares and a kalaraq can do 27 DC nightmares that attack all mental stats three times a night)

Lords of Dust (Rakshasa) Attributes
1. They're backed up by a primal force, currently trapped, which if the stars are right, threatens the life of everything on Khorvaire. (standard villain stuff)
2. Their high-epic level masters are imprisoned by ancient mystical effect produced by the couatls and dragons, their (epic to heroic level servitors: primarily Rakshasa) are working to free them
3. Completely fractious, Rakshasa and other demons see each other as threats and deceive and trick each other as a matter of course. Many will actively work to thwart another if it's to their advantage and offer aid only when it suits them.
4. Arcane magic is default in Khorvaire; demon fighting equipment, methods, PrCs are widely known
5. Very weak communication. Most only communicate with others of their when they periodically (and infrequently) meet by physically traveling to designated (inconveniently located) neutral sites; even those that do communicate regularly with others are usually just working in a small group
6. They must be physically present, often disguised, during their major deceptions. Per examples in the books a Rakshasa who's corrupting a noble is usually there, at ground zero.
7. Limited to being in one place at one time
8. High level magic powers
9. Weak intelligence gathering. While individually powerful each Rakshasa is limited to their own abilities. They may have other demons who help them, but the information provided will be suspect. Rakshasa are great intelligence gatherers compared with an average individual but weak compared to the average countries spy network*.
10. Somewhat secret. Your average character has heard of demons and knows that they are evil and a corrupting influence. Someone with education knows about the Age of Demons. If you worship the Silver Flame you believe that demons and other dark forces exist and can be contained within Eberron by the power of the Silver Flame.
11. Trapped in the prophesy like everyone else (outside of Sarlona)
12. Can possess unwilling individuals
13. Nothing like dream invasion

*=Can Rakshasa corrupt someone and get access to a spy network? Of course. But so can the quori. In fact a quori who's tapped a spy network can and will share info received in near-real time with all other quori. The fiends are generally flying solo or in small groups.

So they're equal in 3 areas (#1, #2, #8). Fiends have a slight advantage in one area (#12 but maybe mitigated even further if psionics are more focused on charm in 4e) and a disadvantage in #10. And the quori blow Rakshasa away in the other [colpr=red]EIGHT CATEGORIES[/color]. Per KB the LoD "ARE the eternal, primal evil – the shadow that remains from the dawn of Eberron". Duking it out with the Lords of Dust can easily stretch up into the epic levels (KB's Savage Tides translates Demogorgon as a "lesser lesser lord of the Age of Demons—less powerful than the Overlords, but more powerful than any rakshasa.")

So if the Lords of Dust are supposed to be epic what are the quori? Super epic on crack with a side of TPK?

I do realize that the quori are one of the best innovations of Eberron, completely original, completely brilliant. They're the uber bad of the setting. The Madness of Last King of Galifar has "quori" written all over it. The Sundering maps almost perfectly to the Last War. There is an ultimate adventure path waiting to be written about the coming quori invasion, with the PCs rushing to trigger the turning of the age, awaken the new Quor Tarai, and transform the "dreamspace" (from SoS) into the "new Qual Dar" before they can launch their attack. And if you print it I will buy two copies and do unspeakable (but oh so enjoyable) things to one of them.

Do they really need to be so totally uber, so completely perfect, so utterly undefeatable?
I realize that in a novel, where the heroes are destined to win and everyone knows it, the "how will the author get them out of this unbelievably dangerous totally inescapable situation" is part of the fun.
But Eberron is -also- a campaign setting for a roleplaying game. Certain things that may be fine for a novel do -not- work for RPG settings.

Quori vs. Rakshasa | Who's more personally powerful?

Both are fundamentally manipulators, so physical confrontation is not the end-all-be-all. But both quori and demons will push the conflict physical if they have to, so who has the advantage is worth considering.
Obviously as an edition changes this all gets hazy but looking purely at 3.5...

I'd say that they're equally "powerful" on average. A quori possessing an 18th level psion is matched with a Rakshasa with 8 levels of sorcerer to my mind. I don't think that there is any reason to argue that one group is more likely to have high powered actors than another.

The Rakshasa has it's fiendish traits but a quori has psionics and access to all the wonderful cheesy little feats that have been produces for PCs. And the Quori also has a suite of different powers availible. One quori will have several psions, soulknives, monks and whatever else they feel like possessing. In a pinch they could cast their nets even wider, snagging a loyal shifter assassin or even an classed ogre mage.

But the comparision actually masks how one-sided a real conflict would be. Even if the Rakshasa wins the quori can just hop out, grab it's 16th level soulknife body, a squad of elite soldiers and have a nomad follower teleport them back to the same spot.
An "even" match up (with comparable CRs/ECLs), will invariably lead to smeared Rakshasa.

And that's without the quori calling for help from it's fanatically loyal brethren. A Rakshasa who could hold off a Hashalaq-possessed empty vessel without a sweat is going to mighty unhappy when a squad of it's du'ulora buddies show up in combat classed empty vessels.

And, of course, the quori are never in any real danger. They can always withdraw, use psionic powers the Rakshasa aren't familiar with, and probably can't identify or resist, to suss out it's weak spots before retaliating.

And even assuming that the Rakshasa manages to pull off something brilliant (trapping the quori in some sort of prision) they're really just signing their own death warrant. The quori as a whole move together, constantly communicating with each other in the time-slowed Dal Quor. It's compatriots will know about it's conflict with the Rakshasa.

By comparison a quori taking out a Lord of Dust may not even be noted for decades.

So, even if they're matched-round-to-round, quori will ulitmately dominate physical conflicts since they can effectively have a bunch of "extra lives" and a suite of different combat abilities to call upon.

(This is without taking into account that the relative ease with which a quori can find a paladin or other demon hunter to kill a Rakshasa. Khorvaire, after all, has a whole religion dedicated to hunting demons.
By comparision the Rakshasa are going to have a devil of a time finding someone who can kill the empty vessel they think is the quori on Sarlona, and just -can't- touch them on their home plane.)

Hellcow

Apr 22, 2008 11:26:27

If you haven't already, I would suggest checking out this article and "Eternal Evil", the Lords of Dust article in Dragon #337. Setting aside other issues (such as "The Limits of Mind Seed" from page 65 of SoS), one of the critical points is that both Quori and Rakshasa are not human and do not react to things in the same way that humans will.

First you have the question of whether it's even worth their time to eliminate the PCs. When you're dealing with someone who's been alive for 350,000 years, human life already is incredibly fragile. How badly did the PCs actually hurt the organization? At any given time, the DD has dozens or hundreds of schemes afoot. Have the PCs actually become a true, serious threat - or have they just set things back for a few years? Heck, a setback of a century is still almost nothing in the eyes of the quori. And at least initially you have to factor in their immortal arrogance, and the assumption that even though you got lucky once, the odds of you managing to pose a threat again are minimal.

But let's assume that they've done something so terrible that it can't be ignored or let slide. Is a simple, quick death the answer? I'm a Lord of Dust - hundreds of thousands of years old. I've been working on a scheme since before Galifar existed. And you've just blown it for me, and it's going to be at least a thousand years before the stars will be right again. Am I just going to KILL you? Where's the fun in that? Now that you've spoiled my scheme, I might as well devote the next decade to vengeance on you. The same holds true for the quori. If you've done something bad enough to truly earn their ire, they'll want to make you suffer... and that takes time. They are shapers of dreams; they may actually HELP you, arranging to give you glory and fame - so it will be all the worse when they finally snatch it away. They won't mind seed YOU - they'll mind seed your kid sister. Again, they aren't in any sort of hurry, and they don't consider mortals to be true threats. So they can afford to make a game of it, slowly working towards final vengeance.

And then there's the third possibility: that they're keeping you alive because they have a use for you. Yes, YOU may think you've spoiled their big plan; but perhaps that's just the first part of an even larger plan. This falls into the hands of the DM who decides to use either group. Because they ARE both extremely powerful - so an immediate question to ask is why they won't kill troublesome PCs. A common approach is to say that PCs are lynchpins of the Prophecy, and that as such they are too valuable to simply remove from the board. If your first attempts to manipulate them failed, you'd rather try again than just waste them.

So personally, I see the Aurum or House Thuranni as more direct threats to PC life and limb because they ARE human and they do see the world as we do. You $&#* over the Aurum boss and he'll take a contract out on your life; he's not looking at what's going to happen in the world a century from now, he doesn't give a damn about your role in the Prophecy, he just wants immediate vengeance. But because the Quori and the Lords of Dust are so inhuman, they won't always act as the mortal crimelord will... and if anything, this should be more frightening. Because either they have some use planned for you, or they're working on a terrible vengeance that could come to fruition at any time (or they may consider you insignificant and be ignoring you - but you'll never know until it's too late!).

Obviously this doesn't change the basic point that this sort of thing needs to be clarified in the core book. But that's essentially how I see it.

Hellcow

Apr 22, 2008 12:26:02

[Deleted]

smug

Apr 22, 2008 20:35:53

[EDIT] Never mind. I don't want to start an argument. This is a letter to the designers, not a debate - and at least one of the designers has seen it, so there it is.

smug

Apr 22, 2008 21:57:17

[Edit] See above. Though with that said, I do think you're underestimating the Lords of Dust.

grafster

Apr 22, 2008 22:31:57

I'll come back soonish and see if I can provide pleasant non-combative counterpoints.

One thing I just have to touched upon (and anticipated really):

First you have the question of whether it's even worth their time to eliminate the PCs.

I don't really know how I can possibly argue about this without getting a bit fired up.

The short response is: I don't think you can possibly mean "what PCs do should never matter to the quori because the quori are so uber and the PCs are so irrelevant".
But that's the only possible interpretation of that line (unless the PCs don't matter or the quori are stupid and don't notice what the PCs are doing, which seems 1) manifestly unlikely 2) isn't implicit in anything you're saying)

In every other aspect Eberron embraces the idea that "the PCs matter".
Why are you so locked onto the idea that the quori, in order to be meaningful badguys, have to be soooooo much more awesome than the PCs actions are necessarily meaningless.

Are the quori really supposed to occupy the Azathoth sloth? Do you really think that's the best thing for Eberron as a DnD setting?

There are some similarities between the dreaming dark and Azathoth of course

t[INDENT]he ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demoniac flute held in nameless paws
H.P. Lovecraft, The Haunter of the Dark[/INDENT]

That is a lot like the Dreaming Dark swirling in the center of Dal Quor...

rauric

Apr 22, 2008 22:57:21

They are dangerous because of their alien nature. Anyway it is all up to a DM. A Dm can have the palyers kill a quori and that is that or they can kill one and open up a whole bad can of worms. Look at them and what they are and what they want. They are not the Aurum or Blood of Vol or some insane artificer. They get ya in your dreams! They are fighting for their races survival. They will do anything to win because it is all or nothing with them. If a PC stops its plan it might not mean anything to them. I am sure they have had "setbacks" with other adventurers. Sometimes it is best just to let them go so they can move on with their next adventure. A group that hounds a certain quori though and even kill/kills one are a very real threat along the Kalashatar line.

Hellcow

Apr 23, 2008 0:37:03

I'The short response is: I don't think you can possibly mean "what PCs do should never matter to the quori because the quori are so uber and the PCs are so irrelevant".

You are correct. That isn't remotely what I mean.

Have you read the Dreaming Dark novels, Grafster? Because it's a perfect example, in my mind, of what I am talking about. I'll go ahead and commit a minor spoiler by revealing that in the course of the novels, the protaganists foil a plot of the Dreaming Dark. In fact, they foil a plot that could, if it were not stopped, have destroyed Khorvaire as we know it.

They stop this plot. And in my opinion, they are not going to be killed the next day, or the day after, because to il-Lashtavar itself, they remain irrelevant.

What they have done is INCREDIBLY relevant to Eberron. It changed the fate of the world. And yet, to the Dreaming Dark itself, it is one of a hundred plots that are in motion, all of which are simply short-cuts to the default "We will take centuries to turn the people of Khorvaire upon themselves and get them to welcome us as their saviors" - and by the time THAT plan comes to fruition, the protaganists of the Dreaming Dark series will have all died of old age (well, except possibly for the warforged).

Would it have been convenient if this plan had worked out? Absolutely. But its failure is not the end of the world for il-Lashtavar; again, it was an attempted shortcut to the default plan that has already been in the works for centuries. From the view of il-Lashtavar, the odds that these particular humans will stumble into another plan and foil that one too are astronomically low. And even if they do THAT, unless they serious threaten to cause the turn of the age or unless il-Lashtavar believes that the age will turn in the immediate future, it STILL has the "We'll get to it in a thousand years."

Set aside Azazthoth, and look to Cthulhu in "The Call of Cthulhu". For a moment, the stars were right and R'lyeh rose. For a moment, we could have been doomed. Then the crisis was averted... but the story ends on the note that the stars will eventually be right again. That's the viewpoint of the Dreaming Dark. It's always looking to the next time, and by that next time you'll be dead even if they do nothing at all.

Beyond that, I have to agree with the previous post - their plans are only flawless and perfectly executed if you make them so. I could take ten extra days to plan a bank job, and still have the entire thing screwed up because the guard got a call on his cell phone, paused, and didn't follow the patrol schedule he was supposed to. They often manipulate people through dreams and telepathic prodding, but if the subject of this manipulation isn't actually being possessed, he can always act in an unpredictable manner.

So my point is that the heroes of The Dreaming Dark were anything but irrelevant: THEY SAVED THE WORLD ITSELF! But this doesn't mean that they pose an ongoing threat to il-Lashtavar. If the Devourer of Dreams takes an interest in revenge, he has no reason to make it swift; he can savor it, and take years in unfolding it.

But ultimately this comes back to the question of what you want to do with the Inspired and the Dreaming Dark. In creating them, I never intended them to be a force the PCs will ever completely defeat and destroy. They rule an entire country, and the turn of the age and destruction of the Dreaming Dark would effectively shatter Riedra. I always intended them to serve the role of backdrop villain - with plans that threaten Khorvaire but which will take decades to come to pass. You deal with their minor plans because their minor plans are the only ones moving fast enough for you to encounter. You can expose and destroy the thieves' guild that they suborned in Fairhaven, and in so doing, you are performing a heroic action that makes Khorvaire a safer place; you may even stop the planned assassination of Queen Aurala, which would, if successful, send Aundair into a frenzy of vengeance and restar the Last War. And in so doing, you will save hundreds of thousands of lives. From your perspective, as a mortal, this is a huge achievement, and you have every right to be proud. You have accomplished one of the great heroic deeds of the age. But il-Lashtavar, like Cthulhu, simply sees it as a trivial setback. Waiting another ten for the next scheme to unfold - a scheme which is already underway and taking place halfway across the world - is fine.

Does this mean that the PCs can't ever stop the Dreaming Dark? Not at all. The Dreaming Dark CAN be destroyed by turning the age. If you want to make that possible and determine the consequences, all you have to do is decide how it can be achieved. But here I do believe that they suffer from immense arrogance. The Devourer of Dreams is 350,000 years old. He may have personally set the Last War in motion by manipulating the dreams of King Jarot - an action which, if true, he did over the course of decades. So the PC got lucky and foiled a scheme; clearly this was luck on the part of the mortal and flawed effort on the part of the Quori handling the matter. The idea that such a mortal could truly bring down il-Lashtavar is ludicrous (or so he thinks). Perhaps he will decide to make the mortal pay... but he can take his time in doing it.

Another example of this, on a much smaller scale, would be the villain of the novel (not the movie) Ghost Story. Here again you have a spirit that is so self-assured in its own immortality and superiority to humans that it toys with them instead of simply killing them. Because those jaded immortals need an amusement to pass the time. Like flies to wanton boys, so are you to the Quori.

The issue as I see it is that this behavior in no way means that the PCs ARE insignificant, that the PCs CANNOT save Eberron from the Quori or even destroy il-Lashtavar itself. But the Dreaming Dark believes that they are insignificant, that they cannot save Eberron (a second time, at least), and that they CERTAINLY can't dstory il-Lashtavar. And this is an example of how Quori reasoning isn't flawless; this arrogance could be their undoing, like that of so many master villains before them.

Pulp is a central part of Eberron. The villain who is objectively superior to the hero in every way and yet who is brought down by the hero because of both the hero's ingenuity and integrety and the villains' short-sighted arrogance is a staple of the pulps. And that's what you have here.

Hellcow

Apr 23, 2008 1:02:56

One more point, lest it get lost in the shuffle:

I agree with the basic point you're making with this post, Grafster.

As things stand, the current ECS provides minimal information about the Dreaming Dark. Certainly it provides insufficient data to address this question of why they don't kill any PC who crosses their path. This is exactly the sort of issue that should be addressed in a 4E Eberron book in order to make the group more useable from the start for a DM who starts D&D with 4E, and clarify things for DMs who have been playing Eberron from the begining.

It's always been my intention that PCs could save the world from the Dreaming Dark - as my novel shows. It's likewise been my intention that such setbacks will be insignificant to the Dreaming Dark, because it operates on such an immense scale. And yet, because of the nature of Dal Quor, it is even possible for the PCs to find a way to destroy il-Lashtavar once and for all... and, again, I expect the Dreaming Dark itself to believe that such a thing is impossible. If the Quori came to believe that the age will turn in 1000 YK, I'd expect a HUGE change in their attitude and far more ruthless behavior towards opposition. But the way I see things, the Quori still believe that they have centuries to work with, that they can continue to reenact the Sundering in Khorvaire... and that all of these other schemes are essentially games to pass the time. If one of them works, great for them and doom for us. But if not, there's always another iron in the fire.

Nonetheless, this is not clear in the ECS as it stands.

#10

Hellcow

Apr 23, 2008 1:40:52

In every other aspect Eberron embraces the idea that "the PCs matter".
Why are you so locked onto the idea that the quori, in order to be meaningful badguys, have to be soooooo much more awesome than the PCs actions are necessarily meaningless.

I'm not sure if I missed this the first time, but just to touch on this again: I think we just have different ideas of what it means for the PC's actions to be "meaningless". If the PCs prevent the assassination of Aurala and the subsequent return to war, that's not meaningless at all; they've just saved thousands of lives. And quite possibly, they were the only ones who could do it. It's not meaningless to them. It's not meaningless to Khorvaire. It's certainly not meaningless to Aurala.

But that doesn't change the fact that to the Dreaming Dark it may only be a minor setback, the foiling of one of a hundred plans. That's not because the Dreaming Dark is more awesome than the PCs; it's because is an entity of an entirely different nature than they are. In many ways il-Lashtavar is exactly Azazthoth - a vast, ancient, and inhuman force lingering on another plane of existence, whose schemes cannot be fully understood even by those who consider themselves its children. It is something completely different from the Lord of Blades or Erandis d'Vol, both individuals with fanatical followers who you can face in one-on-one battle. It is the essence of nightmare itself, an entire plane of existence. Just as an investigator doesn't DESTROY Cthulhu, I don't expect an adventurer to destroy il-Lashtavar, even though it actually is possible by turning the age.

The existence of the Quori and the Dreaming Dark drives the story of Riedra and Adar, the kalashtar and the Inspired, the Path of Light, and more. It's designed to be a part of the foundation of the setting. Personally, I don't want people dealing with the Dreaming Dark as a whole; I want them dealing with a particular agent of the Dark (which is what I suggest in the web article I link to above). They can foil the plans that agent is attached to. If they work at it, they could even bind or destroy that agent, using things like lifebind. Why doesn't that agent bring in every last kalaraq to help? Because even if it threatens the world, her mission is just one of a hundred the Dreaming Dark is involved with. She may confer with her allies, aprise her superiors, but it is also her mission; she may get some tsucora granted to help her out or get a squad of Inspired soldiers, but those kalaraq are involved in their own missions, or dealing with duties on Dal Quor (even demon princes have to work!). If the actions of the players truly and unquestionably threaten il-Lashtavar itself, then things will be different - which is exactly why I DON'T generally want them to threaten il-Lashtavar itself. It is the job of the PCs to save the world from whatever threats arise; but the Dreaming Dark is a force that, by its design, can always return to threaten the world again (unless the age turns, of course... which PCs could try to make happen).

Anyhow, I recognize the basic point you have raised, and it's a valid one. I'll bring it to the attention of the other designers. And now I'm going to stop posting here, since I need to get back to work. Thanks for raising your concerns, and I hope you'll be more satisfied with how it comes across in 4E.

#11

grafster

Apr 23, 2008 22:24:29

I guess I didn't say it but I think the Lords of Dust are fantastic. I really really do.
It's not a flavor thing (though I love the idea of native fiends and the fact that the "main guys" are Rakshasa and not "another dude with red-skin and horns"); or rather it's not just a flavor thing but also it's a structure thing.
They work perfectly, you can have PCs bump into them at any level, and it's plausible that the Rakshasa won't kill them.

Short list of possible reasons the PCs live when facing the LoD

prophesy
fiends think they work for the dragons, don't wanna start that war again right now -- anyway the Chamber's will get new patsies anyway; best they keep using ones the LoD already know about
want to corrupt them slowly
use them as dupes later
don't have the capability/inclination to track them
--isolated from each other, so "word" of the PCs doesn't spread
don't think humans are worth their time
demonic arrogance

#12

Hellcow

Apr 25, 2008 11:33:47

Using the PCs as patsies is good, but it runs the risk, I think of marginalizing the PCs decisions even further.
Unless the PCs can turn the tables somehow.

And if you've read the Dreaming Dark novels,

Show

that's exactly what the second two books are about

#13

horatioatthebridge

May 06, 2008 22:21:02

Warning: Spoilers for old TV shows may follow. Proceed at your own risk.

One alternate direction I'm interested in taking the Quori is making them more like the Shadows or the Vorlon from Babylon 5. Yeah, they're this uber-powerful, unstoppable force, but in the end John Sheridan stands up to them and says "Get out of my galaxy!" That's a compelling story, and it's worth considering how it might be told in Eberron. First things first, it's an epic story and that should be a major consideration--the PCs need big guns to take on the Quori. Second, it's important to point out that John Sheridan got the best of both worlds--he figured out how to end the cycle of war without "casting an entire continent into chaos." The third thing to consider is that the Quori aren't the Shadows or the Vorlon--they're kind of in the middle, they have no major opponent, and their manipulation means more to them than getting the lesser races to do what they want. They have to win or they're all going to die. Their response to John Sheridan saying "Get out!" would be to vaporize him.

So, what are the levers that can be used to turn the Quori? The big thing is the turning of the age. As Hellcow pointed out, you can get the age to turn faster by knocking out their linchpin (Riedra), though it will be at the cost of destroying a stable, peaceful civilization. At this point, I'd like to go back to B5: this is not how Sheridan won--he didn't go about stopping the Shadows' and the Vorlon's every move. John Sheridan didn't focus on foiling the plans of the Shadows and Vorlons, but instead went and made his own plan. It seems the key isn't to foil the Quori, but rather to come up with a new plan that takes them by surprise--a way to turn the age that they didn't anticipate. So, what if the PCs build an eldritch machine? Maybe they could make something that turns the massive network of hanbalas against the Quori, so instead of diverting energy to keep the age static, their energy is diverted to turn the age? Or what if the PCs manage to make the schemes of the Quori known to all of Khorvaire (Serenity "can't stop the signal" style), and then the khalashtar lead the Five Nations in a continent-wide focused meditation to turn the age on those bastards that led us to 100 years of war? Or just get a crap-ton of new converts, and the turning of the age is accelerated a few centuries, just enough to turn the age before Khorvaire falls? Or what if the PCs follow the adventure laid out in Secrets of Sarlona and protect Adar just long enough for the age to turn? Or, you could run an Angel style game and murder every last one of the Dreaming Dark's agents, setting them back hundreds of years...just in time for the age to change (I think the Atavists are gunning for this one).

It's important to note at this point that the Quori adventures I've described here are counter to the way the designer (Hellcow) intended them to be played. Which, I think, he'd be fine with. Still, this is not a pulp story anymore. It's a science fiction story, and those are still good stories and I think a lot of people want to play them. They're just not, you know, very pulpy. I actually think it's kind of cool that the campaign setting is flexible enough to accommodate stories outside of its genre like that...

#14

grafster

May 16, 2008 1:19:56

[EDIT] Never mind. I don't want to start an argument. This is a letter to the designers, not a debate - and at least one of the designers has seen it, so there it is.

Though it's pretty late to come back and say it but... it was never my intent to squelch debate.

I'm happy to discuss debate the LoD or anything else.
Though, I just wanted to preface it by saying that I think the LoD are very cool and almost note-perfect as a villianous group. My assertions (largely already addressed and certainly not worth repeated) had to do with the quori's imperfections relative to the platonic idea of villiany (visa vie their use as a story tool) that I see the LoD being.

So I wasn't saying "they be weak" or anything.

The first draft of Shadows of the Last War actually ended the same way, with Garrow taking the schema and the discovery that Eladren was working for Cannith East (and I say this because it's not how the module ended up, so it's not a spoiler)... so the PCs have handed the EC a superweapon. With the understanding that the NEXT adventure would then involve them going and getting it back - showing the people who had used them as patsies that they'd underestimated the heroes' abilities.

If you can, can you tell us why you changed it?

The other way I'd look at it is a grandmaster playing chess in the park with a hundred people at once. The fact of the matter is that he will lose a few games. But he's not going to panic the first time he loses one. He won't think of that person as an equal; that person was playing a single game and got lucky, while he's playing a hundred games. Besides, spending too much time worrying about the outcome of that game could distract him from the other 99. And as soon as the table is cleared, he'll start ANOTHER game. Now he loses a second game. He may not even notice it's the same guy (unless the quori agent involved is the same one).

I like this analogy even better than the last one.
I guess I always imagined the lower tier quori as being a bit less conceited. Naturally though, just because a bear smells something sweet and comes in through your screen door to mess up your kitchen so long as it leaves quickly you don't necessarily feel the need to go get your shotgun and go after it.
Errr...
Maybe I should leave the analogies to you.

Anyway I don't know if you could put the chess-master-in-the-park as a sidebar in the book, but it's very very strong analogy for someone coming at it from my angle.

If a short-cut appears, they'll certainly try it; but if it fails (again, allowing the PCs to save the world from Quori domination) it's not the end of everything for the Quori, because they've always got that two-century plan in the hopper.

This again is something that really helps someone coming at it from my angle.
deleted terrible analogy
(Ok. Definitely stopping with the analogies now).

So, what if the PCs build an eldritch machine? Maybe they could make something that turns the massive network of hanbalas against the Quori, so instead of diverting energy to keep the age static, their energy is diverted to turn the age? Or what if the PCs manage to make the schemes of the Quori known to all of Khorvaire (Serenity "can't stop the signal" style), and then the khalashtar lead the Five Nations in a continent-wide focused meditation to turn the age on those bastards that led us to 100 years of war? Or just get a crap-ton of new converts, and the turning of the age is accelerated a few centuries, just enough to turn the age before Khorvaire falls? Or what if the PCs follow the adventure laid out in Secrets of Sarlona and protect Adar just long enough for the age to turn? Or, you could run an Angel style game and murder every last one of the Dreaming Dark's agents, setting them back hundreds of years...just in time for the age to change (I think the Atavists are gunning for this one).

You'd be awesome to have as a player.
Obviously this gets to the question "how much to the PCs know about the DD/quori"; but as Smug as others have pointed out there are vehicles (Path of Light religious texts, the shared Kalashtar memories) that can get you there.

My only issues would be that the last two suggestions
"protecting Adar until the age turns" or "murder every last DD agent" bang up against some of my issues.
Protecting Adar requires either that 1) the quori/DD not know that the age is turning or 2) not be powerful enough to break Adar if they had to.
Of course it could be a case of the PCs holding them off for long enough to convince the dragons that they need to get involved.

As for murdering every last DD agent? I've only seen the first (or maybe first and second) seasons of Angle but I think killing all of them would be.... difficult. I think, even if you discount you average citizenry of Sarlona, the low level goons, the army and so forth there are probably still a lot of agents.
How many empty vessles? 100,000 is probably too many but I'd say 10s of thousands. And they have sympathetic servants as probably at least as many....
That's.... a lot of killing.
Assuming, all in, you have around 50,000 and you could take out 100 a day that's a year, four months and around 13 days of killing.
I'm not saying it's not possible, this is DnD, but it's a lot of fighting.

For me, at least, in a "kill 'em all" campaign I think I'd get to the tipping point as a DM where I'd say that, absent support from some big force (the Dragons for instance) the party would eventually be TPK'd. I'd let them roll it out, but after agent 1000, or 10,000 or whatever the DD would get off it's big gibbering-center-of-the-mad-plane-of-dreams-butt and say "open season" and I'd write up say 20 20th level empty souls (maybe some liches that got raised for the event; or some really powerful people that got mind seeded especially for the occasion) and have them deploy time stop and save or die powers/spells until the PCs started rolling '1's.

Ideally it'd be like Things to do in Denver when you're dead and most of the PCs would get to hang out for a few days on Dolurrh and drink boat drinks before forgetting everything, but eventually my simulationist self would just put a stop to it.