Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Griefswald Feb 26, 2014 16:12:17	Hi,   I recently started a game where the players are all new to Eberron but mostly experienced at RPG.   The group are based in Droam (2 Dwarves, 1 Human, 1 Half-elf) and have just entered the Shadow Marches to try an find a gatekeeper to take the Symbiote off the hand of the Half-elf.   I am trying to make the Orcs more than just Green, Strong Humans and could use some advise.   So far I have had the group encounter a large farmstead on the way from Yrlag to Goldmire that involved the main family at the farmstead being Gibbering cultists who feed their own dead (not anyone else) to the mouther in the basement.   I have reread the Wandering Monster article here on Orcs and Gnolls which gives some pointers as to Orcs being savage and fairly unproductive, living as raiders rather than farmers.   While I am sure that some Orcs would do that I want most of them to be more interested in just making a living the the Marches.   My take on it so far is that the Shadow Marches orcs have gone from the Savage Nomadic lifestyle that they had during the time of Dhakkaan to becoming farmers and merchants but still holding on to some of that savagery.   I have some vague thoughts about Vvaraak choosing the Orcs over the Goblinoids because they would be more receptive to the primal magics, therefore more in tune with the spirits of the natural world. Maybe Orcs can feel the energies of Druid magic more readily than Gobliniods (usually a thing for elves but this is Eberron so I don't think I am taking anythign away from Eleves with this)
#2 Griefswald Feb 26, 2014 16:22:19	I don't see Orcs as having progressed a great deal technologically in any way, maybe not even to the point of making metal weapons. Part of this would be that they had never needed to, the inate ability to use Primal magic to create Bone, Stone or Wooden weaponry would have hardened these weapons to withstand the Metal Weapons on the Dhakanni and the lack of a territorial mindset to the Orcs would have made them harder to conquer than if they had developed stable cities.   After the Daelkyr invasion the Orcs where weakened and later with the invasion of the humans into Khorvaire they adapted their lifestyle to a more agricultural society so many of their farming/crafting practices would be close to Rhiedran.   The Marcher clans still respect Strenght above all so their clan leaders would be chosen from a trial by combat model, and once a leader is defeated he leaves the clan. That said the leader of a clan still needs the support of the members of that clan so many ideas are discussed with the whole clan (this is starting to become unwealdy in larger clans).   Thrakash stands outside this model in some ways as they have had to model some of their practices on other Dragonmarked Houses (largely Sivis) in order to be profitable outside the Marches.   More later assI think of it, I would really like some feedback and ideas on how other people have run Orcs in general and the Shadow Marches in particular. And if anyone can point me to any of Keith Bakers articles on Orcs then that would be great.
#3 tallric_kruush Feb 26, 2014 18:39:39	Don Bassingthwaite's "The Dragon Below" trilogy is a great resource for campaigns in western Khorvaire. The trilogy visits, among other places, both the cities and wilds of the Shadow Marches and Droaam.   The author really does an outstanding job of building believable cultures, and grounding them in established Eberron canon. He did a great job in this particular trilogy with the various Marchers (including Gatekeeper tribes, savage cultist tribes and urbanites) and with the lore and heirs of Dhakaan. I've taken many of his cultural and linguistic creations and established them as "canon" for our Eberron. His "Heirs of Dhakaan" (IIRC...) trilogy is equally amazing for a campaign involving Eberron's goblinoids.   I don't think Keith has had the opportunity to publish many specifics concerning Gatekeeper/Marcher Orc tribes. I did a quick search, and didn't find much. I'll check again, later, as time allows. I, too, was rolling possibilities around in my mind for a Dhakaani/Gatekeeper-flavored campaign. Rereading Keith's "The Kech Ghaalrac" article set those thoughts in motion.
#4 Griefswald Feb 26, 2014 18:57:54	I did find these as well: The City of Zarash'ak https://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dun/201106eoe   Dragonmarks: The Gatekeepers http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-8-3-13-the-gatekeepers/
#5 Beoric Feb 26, 2014 20:53:42	I think the primary sources I use are Races of Eberron, the ECS and ECG, There are also a few nuggets in the Player's Guide to Eberron, and there is a fair amount of information regarding the Gatekeepers in Faiths of Eberron.  Also, hunt around on Hellcow's old and new website for bits of information here and there tha help you fit it all together.  You might also get some clues from the adventure "Khyber's Harvest".   I, too, am running a campaign in the Shadow Marches.  The rough framework for the first 3 levels are based on the Keep on the Shadowfell, with Winterhaven being replaced by a village dominsted by Tharashk that is near a dragonshard-extracting operation, the humanoids being replaced by a human Marcher clan and the odd foulspawn, and Orcus being replaced by an imprisoned daelkyr.    Since it is a swamp I assume that mining for metals or rock are not commonly practiced, with hide, bone and chitin being more commonly used for weapons and armor.  I generally use Dark Sun equipment for these purposes.    I have made the orc tribes an oral culture, which has some interesting elements to it.  Historial information is recorded in songs and stories using various memnonic devices, as are teh creation and transfer of rights.  Basically, where we would use a document or deed to grant a right, in my Eberron the elders in the orc tribes grant rights by giving the recipent a song, which only he or she has the right to sing.  When exercising the right or making a claim to a right (such as a property right, or a right to travel across another tribe's territory), it is expected that the right-holder will first sing the song, the way we might present a deed or certificate.  Songs thus become a very important part of orc culture.   This helps me ot think about what festivals, rituals and other gatherins will look like, and how contact bewteen individuals will be managed.   I also decided that the orcish language does not contain sounds that would be difficult to pronounce with tusks protruding from one's mouth, and when I coin words (or steal them from WoW or Tolkein) I modify them to meet that criteria.  However, I also decided that female orcs have no tusks, or at least smaller tusks, and that the women have deliberately coined words relating to "women's business" that are difficult for males to pronounce.  This suggests some things about the relationship between the genders that I keep in the back of my mind when I manage NPCs.   My orcs are not unproductive.  I figure that if you live a simple life in a harsh environment, "unproductive" = "dead".    My orcs are active hunters and gatherers, and are very productive laborers when hired by Tharashk to exploit dragonshard fields (I have an image of them walking though swamp up to their waist barefoot, probing the mud with their feet to try to detect the Eberron shard geodes, and then levering them out of the mud with staves).  They also farm ashi, a reed with a starchy pith that can be used to make bread.
#6 Beoric Feb 26, 2014 21:11:42	My orc tribes are divided along family lines, with the heads of smaller family units selecting the headsman for the family as a whole, and the headsmen of all of the familes acting as the executive branch fo the government, and selecting a head chief, who is the first among equals and acts more or less as a chair of the meetings.  In addition, there are traditional societies that cut across family lines and have, over time, grown to fill such other functions of government as may appear necessary.  There may be a society, for example, that has taken it upon itself to maintain order in the tribe, and that role has been accepted over time so that when a situation arises, people automitically fetch the members of that society.  It is a bit like the Aiel from the Wheel of Time series, but the societies actually do something productive.   I thought that was more interesting than the traditional clueless-chief-with-a-corrupt-shaman approach to tribal governance that you generally see in pulp fiction.   Generally, leaders just sort of rise through the ranks over time as their leadership (and fighting) abilities are recognized and respect for them grows.  They are not likely to fight each other, because life is hard and they can't afford to lose hunters/warriors.  They are, however, very likely to try to gain respect and wealth by raiding rival tribes.  And those who disrupt the social order can be dealt with very harshly.   I have spent a lot of time thinking about how tribes that are followers of the Dragon Below could function and survive as societies, but I have run out of time.
#7 Hellcow Mar 03, 2014 11:42:11	I don't have time to respond in detail, but one of the key things to me is that the orcs are a very primal race. Their emotions and instincts run deep, and they are very passionate. While they are often known for their fierce rages, this passion is just as powerful when in manifests as love or grief. They engage with the world around them more fully than many humans do. It's easy to look back at their shared history with the Dhakaani and portray the orcs as savages who lived in the woods while the goblins built empires, but the key to me is that the orcs never wanted the civilization the goblins adored. It's not that orcs are stupid or brutish; it's that they don't feel the same need to impose their will on the world that many other races do. They embrace their lives as part of nature instead of holding themselves above it. This is why they have a natural inclination for the primal classes, and why they took so quickly to Vharaak's teaching.   As a minor aside, this quote from The Player's Guide To Eberron might be useful.   Many of the people of the Five Nations are uncomfortable around half-orcs and find the idea of humans and orcs crossbreeding to be vile and distasteful. Such beliefs have never found root in the Shadow Marches, though, and those orcs who chose to welcome humanity to their land were quick to mate with the newcomers. Those who followed the druidic paths knew that hybrids are often the strongest plants, while the Khyber cultists have always seen change as a path to power. In the Marches, half-orcs are celebrated; they are called jhorgun’taal, “children of two bloods.” Blood is everything to the clans, and the jhorgun’taal are the proof that orc and human are kin. They have the strong spirituality of their orc forebears and the wisdom of humanity, and as such many of the greatest druids and priests are half-orcs. The jhorgun’taal perform important tasks in the Marches, for while they are not as clever or charming as their human kin, they have the trust of both races. As a result, the sheriff of a muck-mining town is more likely to be a half-orc than a member of either of the pure races. Likewise, when the clans send ambassadors to negotiate feuds or trading rights, they often send a jhorgun’taal, even if a more charismatic human comes along as an advisor. While half-orcs are a true-breeding race in their own right, the jhorgun’taal are just as likely to mate with humans or orcs as with their own kind. The half-orcs of the Shadow Marches don’t see themselves as a separate race; rather, they consider themselves to be the bridge that makes humans and orcs one race.
#8 Griefswald Mar 03, 2014 17:44:20	Thanks Keith, That condensed to the point answer was actually just what I was looking for.
#9 Hellcow Mar 04, 2014 15:53:46	A few more random thoughts...   Looking to the race as a whole, I see orcs as a fundamentally chaotic race where goblins are fundamentally lawful. Goblins thrive on structure and hierarchy; orcs are more driven by instinct and impulse. Where the goblins established a vast empire, the orcs remained bound to family and clan; we've never mentioned a "King of the Orcs". They are passionate and creative, but more driven by what an individual can accomplish than a nation. This doesn't prevent them from placing value on tradition, as shown by both the Gatekeepers and Cults of the Dragons Below... but even there, both of these faiths are far less structured than the Church of the Silver Flame. Humanity has a greater impusle towards order, and House Tharashk reflects the marriage of human and orc; it benefits from orcish passion and strength, but also from the human desire to build and expand.   This is a simplistic look at a complex race. The Ghaash'kala orcs of the Demon Wastes are highly disciplined... but even there, their structure is less hierarchical and complex than that of the Church of the Silver Flame. Again, my feeling is that on a very primal level they value personal instinct and emotion more highly than the rule of law. An orc lives in the moment and follows his feelings.   While House Tharashk strongly reflects the influence of humanity and the half-orcs, it is worth noting that Tharashk is a house that has already been pushing rules and stepping on toes. Through its dealings with Droaam it is overlapping with the existing business of Orien and Deneith, while its inquisitive business fills a role long monopolized by Medani. This ties to that early point. They are more chaotic and more inclined to pursue their own desires than to accept the established order and be content with one niche.
(Reply to #9) Griefswald	Hellcow wrote:
(Reply to #10) Hellcow	Griefswald wrote:
#12 Griefswald Mar 04, 2014 21:29:08	Largely this is put together from a quick search of The Grand History of Eberron so if I have forgotten something please let me know.   History of the Orc: –37,000 YK - First evidence of Orcs. Largely found in Western Khorvaire the existence of the Jhorash’tar clan indicates that the Orc tribes ranged as far east as the Mror Holds.   –15,000 YK – Vvaraak instructs the Orcs in Druidic Magic   –8,000 YK - The Daelkyr War   –4,000 YK - The Fall of Dhakaan / The corruption of the Orc tribes: Also the Rise of the Ghaash’kala   -500 YK The Sarlonan Migration to Western Khorvaire. Thos Tribes that welcome the humans merge the Orc culture with the new Human influence and move towards a Clan structure, Some tribes shun the invaders and maintain the older Orcish traditions. The inbreeding of Orcs and Humans creates the jhorgun’taal (Half-Orc).   –2 YK The Mark of Finding Appears in the Shadow Marches
(Reply to #11) Griefswald	Hellcow wrote:
(Reply to #12) Hellcow	Griefswald wrote:
(Reply to #14) Griefswald	I decided to break up my responses to that last post.   Hellcow wrote:
(Reply to #14) Griefswald	Hellcow wrote:
(Reply to #14) Griefswald	Hellcow wrote:
#18 Griefswald Mar 05, 2014 16:31:30	Some other thoughts about Orcs as I run them.   I roll Ogres and Ogre Magi into the Orc race as basically Tieflings, a powerful Tribe from before the Daelkyr invasion that bartered with the lords of dust for greater power and where rewarded with increased size and strength.   In this game specifically I have used a Dwarf clan that ran through Khyber from the Mror Holds to the Byeshk mountains to escape the Daelkyr invasion, after living in those mountains for 8 thousand years they where then invaded yet again by what they believe where other dwarves and now live in northern Droam, althrough most of their population continued running into Droam or the Shadow Marches. For this reason you tend to find a lot of Dworcs in the Northern Shadow Marches.   I use Star Pact warlocks as leaders of the Cults a lot, I like the idea of warlocks rather than sorcerers and tend to stay away from Daelkyr Clerics, there are some but they tend to be rare.   The younger generation of orcs tend towards confusion about their place in the current culture and break up into about 3 broad categories: - those that hold REALLY hard to the old ways and become a bit fanatical about tradition - those that run right towards the new civilisation offered by the five kindoms and work towards moving to Sharn, operating a business / climbing the corporate lader - those that say "stuff this lest get high" and go lick a chog (Chicken frog that has hallucinogenic sweat) or snort powdered Yellow Mould   The healers of the Marches use the herbs there more readily than magic, and in many ways are just as effective at what they do as House Jorasco although without the reputation or the uniformity of service on offer, and without dragonmarks they can not offer some of the higher end healing that Jorasco can. but certainly the lack of epidemic infections can be put down to the Witchdoctors, Alcemists and Gatekeepers active in the Marches.   The Tooth and Fang currency of Droam has a place in the Shadow Marches, while Tharashk has seen an influx of coin into the Shadow Marches a barter system and the use of Teeth has been around much longer and in most areas is still in effect, this would include Zarash'ak   Ancient Orc weponry tends towards bone / stone but newer wepons are more likely to be Steel, the style of the weponry or metalwork is more likely to reflect the inherent design of the school that the smith comes from but be decorated with the more traditional paterns of the Ancient wepons. e.g. an aundairan style breadsword with a basket hilt and a thiner blade decorated with a pattern of animal markings up the blade.
(Reply to #18) Griefswald	Griefswald wrote:
(Reply to #15) Hellcow	Griefswald wrote:
#21 Griefswald Mar 06, 2014 16:29:09	On a somewhat seperate note, does anyone know where I would find information on the otehr settlements in the shadow Marches.   There is some info about Zarash'ak around and the 4 towns and 2 settlements are mentioned as being Tharashk outposts, so I am reading that as mining towns mostly.   Has anyone heard if they are smaller versions of the city on stilts? or are they on hard enough ground that they are normal buildings? I see a lot of the buildings being more tents than permanent housing, or perhaps boarding house arrangements (basically a hall with bunk beds) for workers who move from settlement to settlement. Of the permanent buildings I can see A Tharashk Outpost, A Gaeth'ad house that doubles as a Bar, and maybe a few other houses for permanent residents.   Anyone else have any ideas or anywhere I could find Canon info?
(Reply to #20) Griefswald	Hellcow wrote: