I've long been a great fan of Ebberron, especially for its villains and its very political and morally complicated world, but recently I've been a bit bugged by some of the similarities between two of the settings biggest villains- the Daelkyr abberations of Xoriat and the Quori spirits.
I'm very well aware that they operate and are organized very, very differently, and use different kind of servants. But the ultimate threat they pose just seems too similar: they are extraplanar evils largely sealed outside of Eberron that are trying to unlock gates to their home planes of madness and nightmares and unleash the hordes of Far Realms-esque monsters. (Some will say that the Quori plan is generally more subte than this, which is true, but the whole Dreaming Dark series is about exactly such a Quori plot.) So yes, while they are organized differently and use different servants, the endpoint of their plans seem to similar.
I understand that the Daelkyr just like spreading chaos and madness and mutations, whereas the Quori in fact would rather keep the world static to prevent the turning of the age. But if they truly are creatures of nightmare and malice, than why are they contented with leaving Sarlona a well-run police state, rather than imposing something more monstrous and chaotic? (Don't get me wrong, it's more interesting that they created a society which superficially is very well managed, but I don't understand entirely why that would be the desired objectives of cthulhoid creatures of nightmare.)
Any thoughts to explain and distinguish the similarities between the Daelkyr and the Quori?
I think you're mostly right, and that they're two sides of the same coin. (To top off your comparison, both are adept at psionics!). I think they exists mainly to give you two flavors of evil extraplanar threats to choose from. (Horrific and destructive, and manipulative and subtle)
To answer your question about Reidra, though, the Quori are mostly concerned with keeping the current Age of Nightmares in existance. They've come to believe that by controlling mortal dreams, they control the Turn of the Age. So what they're doing is attempting to stagnate the mortal world so that it cannot change. (The Kalashtar believe that the Turn of the Age will transform Dal Quor into a dreamworld, with the next quori being dreams incarnate, rather than nightmares.)
The Dreaming Dark was a Lawful Evil organization in 3e, so you can see them as being slightly more Lawful than Evil. They want to DOMINATE, not destroy and consume.
So the main difference between Dealkyr and Quori is that Quori want stagnation, and Dealkyr want change.
Any thoughts to explain and distinguish the similarities between the Daelkyr and the Quori?
While I understand that they are both disturbingly similar, I can't help but see that their differences are more pronounced.
Dal Quor is a dreamscape where our mortal minds meander in our sleep. One might theorize that Dal Quor exist because mortal minds dreamed it into existence. No matter what the planar alignment is (Nightmare/Light = the mortal potential for evil/good), it is still a place of possibilities, both wondrous and horrible. The quori feed on our nightmares (or dreams), which means that they are beings operating on a logical and psychological level (subconsciously mostly). Their motives are almost human, with a strong instinct for survival. It is something mortals can understand.
The daelkyr on the other hand are unfathomable beings from a realm that defies our comprehension. We can't hope to know their motivations, because their thoughts are completely alien to us. Sure they are as psionic as the quori, but they represent the thing that exist outside our minds, our reality.
The boundary between nightmare and madness are often blurred, as shown in Bassingthwaite's The Dragon Below series, but it is clear that Xoriat and Dal Quor are antithetical to each other.
Excellent points made, but then it leaves me wondering, if the Quori really feed on nightmares, why would they want to maintain a boringly peaceful, stable state like Sarlona? (I know Sarlona is repressive, but the majorty of its citizens are too indoctrinated to really be subjected to the nightmarish aspects of the regime.)
Somewhat tangentially, I also wonder what the Quori were like when they were beings of light and beauty during the age of Giants. THe war they fought against the Giants still did not seem to paint them in a very Good light.
Excellent points made, but then it leaves me wondering, if the Quori really feed on nightmares, why would they want to maintain a boringly peaceful, stable state like Sarlona? (I know Sarlona is repressive, but the majorty of its citizens are too indoctrinated to really be subjected to the nightmarish aspects of the regime.)
Somewhat tangentially, I also wonder what the Quori were like when they were beings of light and beauty during the age of Giants. THe war they fought against the Giants still did not seem to paint them in a very Good light.
Remember that only the victors are left to write history, and the Giants won.
As for Quori feeding on nightmares, I don't think that's entirely acurate. They ARE nightmares. They feed on emotions, but not necessarily nightmares. The Du'ulora feeds on Rage, say, and he can get that from anyone that happens to be angry about anything.
Excellent points made, but then it leaves me wondering, if the Quori really feed on nightmares, why would they want to maintain a boringly peaceful, stable state like Sarlona? (I know Sarlona is repressive, but the majorty of its citizens are too indoctrinated to really be subjected to the nightmarish aspects of the regime.)Somewhat tangentially, I also wonder what the Quori were like when they were beings of light and beauty during the age of Giants. THe war they fought against the Giants still did not seem to paint them in a very Good light.
Remember that only the victors are left to write history, and the Giants won.
As for Quori feeding on nightmares, I don't think that's entirely acurate. They ARE nightmares. They feed on emotions, but not necessarily nightmares. The Du'ulora feeds on Rage, say, and he can get that from anyone that happens to be angry about anything.
I meant to say they fed on the fear generated by nightmares. They probably just feed on a variety of emotions, like fear, rage, despair. Also, Riedrans might not be oppressed to the point of generating these emotions but they still feed the quori psychic energy via the monoliths.
As for the quori during the Age of Giants, I believe that they were still the invading force that tried to make their new home in Xen'drik before their realm imploded completely. Even if they were made of sugar puffs and everything nice, they're still invading giant territory. And mind you, most giants were/are pretty mean and full of naughtiness.
I meant to say they fed on the fear generated by nightmares. They probably just feed on a variety of emotions, like fear, rage, despair.
The hashalaq quori draw strength from mortal pleasure. Quori are spirits of dream. As pure concepts, they are not all negative. The fact that they are evil by nature is reflected by how they choose to use their abilities or generate their emotions. The kalashtar with the hashalaq background may be an excellent bard, who loves to please others with her thoughtsongs. The duulora kalashtar may draw on rage and anger but use it to inspire his comrades in battle, giving them the fervor to fight. So the hashalaq quori CAN draw its sustenance from positive dreams - the darker dreams are simply what resonate within its mind.
As for why creatures of nightmare seek to create a stable Eberron, it's because they don't give a damn ABOUT Eberron. They care about Dal Quor. If they create their perfect world, the tsucora will still hunt you in your dreams and give you nightmares. And part of it is that they don't KNOW how to protect Dal Quor. They're acting in the dark. Some among them think that controlling Sarlona is good enough... that they've already won their victory and just need to preserve it. Some think that they need to control the entire world. Some want to physically control things, as seen in TDD. But they aren't certain. Nonetheless, what they WANT is simply to keep the world they have; to keep things as they've been for the last thirty thousand years. Which, honestly, hasn't been that bad. Sure, tsucora come around and give you bad dreams - but there's far more dreamers than tsucora, and most of the time, your dreams are your own. And so far they've been fine with that. The Dreaming Dark is driven by fear, uncertainty, adn self-preservation. They are immortals, and they don't want to die. So they are stabbing at the world in an attempt to preserve the world they know.
The Daelkyr, on the other hand, are change and destruction. Given the choice, they will reshape the world and leave it a horrific shell in their wake... before moving on to transform and destory the next world they can fine. They can't be reasoned with. Their motives can't be understood. Is it art? Do they draw sustenance from it? Do they hate mortals for some reason? Are they trying to perfect things? We don't know. We'll never know.
So on some level, it's law versus chaos. The quori want order, stability, control. They work quietly and subtly, manipulating your dreams for generations to accomplish their goals. The daelkyr are change, madness, destruction. They're the wildfire; if they break loose, they will spread like a virus, transforming your friends into monsters and spreading out. On another level, the DD are mental and the daelkyr are physical. The DD with mind seed you and take over your body. The daelkyr will turn your body inside out and leave you as an eyeless being with tentacles on your shoulders. The daelkyr may also MESS with your mind - but again, they're more about wild madness than subtle manipulation.
As for the pre-DD quori, it's unclear. There's no assurance that they were good. Dal Quor goes through cycles. But that cycle may not be good-evil-good-evil. It might be unaligned-evil-good. It might be Sponge-Puppy-Evil-Good. Not only do we not know, THEY don't know. And that uncertainty terrifies them. We also don't know if they invaded and attacked the giants; if they sought refuge and their actions were misinterpreted as hostile (as Shira claims in TDD); or if the giants were planar-aggressors and the quori struck back out of self-defense. We have relics like Shira that provide clues, but it's as simple or complex as you want it to be.
In any case, the quori are spirits that take pleasure in spreading nightmares. But they've been doing that for tens of thousands of years. It's part of life as we know it. For the most part, they don't WANT to collapse the world into a single unending nightmare; they just don't want the world of dreams to change on a fundamental level, and are doing what they believe necessary to preserve their way of life. They are cruel and take joy in spreading nightmares, but usually you wake up OK after the experience. The daelkyr on the other hand want to shatter the world as we know it.
This leads to another question: How aware of each other's plans are they? Does the DD know of the Daekyr and vice versa? Would they view each other as rivals, almost certainly yes, but would they oppose the other?
The Quori should know about the Daelkyr. They invade the dreams of people, and that includes people in the know. I suspect the Quori see the Daelkyr as a dangerous threat that they would strike down with impunity and as quickly as possible when discovered, although more then likely through influencing others to do their dirty work.
I am less certain about the Dealkyr, I suspect they don't really know about the Quori's existence. As Keith said, the Daelkyr are about the physical. The Quori can only influence the world indirectly, and no Quori is going to stick around in a body captured by a Daelkyr. I also would say that even if they do know about the Quori, they wouldn't really care more or less about them then any other potential enemy. Probably less since the Quori cannot directly influence the world, and the Daelkyr can shatter the mind of anything to such a degree that it is beyond the Quori's influence. Then again, the Daelkyr are a chaotic unpredictable bunch. Some of them might see the Quori as the biggest threat there is 
Side note: I suspect the giants started out pretty desent, or at least wise, or else the dragons would not have taught them their magic. By the time the quori appeared though the giants were highly arrogant bastards who did not think twice about using the darkest magics. While the quori invaded the lands of the giants, we have no clue about their motivations. For all we know, the giants might have started the conflict by using some kind of dangerous dream-magic, and the quori might have decided that the giants need to be exterminated based on a Silver Flame like argument. You just have to look at the PCs to realize that in a world like Eberron you do not need to be Evil to start an invasion (although it certainly makes things easier).
Huh, good point Madfox. The quori might have realized that the corruption of the Giant's society was Turning the Age into one of darkness, and might've invaded to protect an age of light.
The Quori should know about the Daelkyr. They invade the dreams of people, and that includes people in the know.
Certainly... but dreams aren't exactly the most infalliable source of information, especially when you're talking about the dreams of madmen. So Crazy Bob is having a dream in which a mind flayer is turning the towers of Sharn into pudding. Does that mean he's part of a cult of the Dragon Below and this is actually going to happen tomorrow? Or did he just have a little too much spicy tribex at the Talenta take-away? Are you willing to divert resources from other operations to find out?
The Dreaming Dark has a lot of tricks at their disposal. I expect that they have their own cults of the Dragon Below. After all, not every cult has a mind flayer or dolgaunt telling it what to do. If they just believe that Gibbering Grandma is their ticket to paradise, then if I invade your dreams, take her appearance, and tell you what to do, I've got some thugs I can aim at a target... and when caught, their actions will be blamed on the daelkyr and their mad minions. Meanwhile, it's not like the daelkyr even know these particular minions exist; the poor souls are simply casualties of the madness of Xoriat. So they don't care. My main point is simply that the Dreaming Dark has lots of ways to gather information, and they have mind seed plants in many organizations. But they aren't omniscient or infalliable. They certainly know about the daelkyr, because anyone who studies history knows about the daelkyr. But I don't think they know specifically what's on Belashyrra's mind. Because, were they to touch his mind, I think they'd go as mad as any mortal (check that Alien Mind ability in the ECS).
Beyond that... the Dreaming Dark doesn't want the world collapsed into a seething pit of aberrations and horrors. So it's in their best interests to stop that from happening. But the actions of the daelkyr aren't as predictable or easily tracked as those of, say, the Aurum or House Cannith. Their cults can spring up anywhere. Their plans are unpredictable. Anyone can fall to madness... and the Dreaming Dark can only monitor so many things at once. So the Daelkyr are certainly a case where groups like the Lords of Dust or Dreaming Dark may end up aiding the PCs to stop their plans - if there's time for such help to be brought to bear. And help from either group may be a coin with two sides...
As for the daelkyr, maybe they know about the Dreaming Dark... maybe they don't. You'll find out if Dar Qat is turned into pudding. They don't need to engage in subtle disruption of plans; when they rise again, they'll snap the serenity of Sarlona like a dry bone. MF makes a good point in that the daelkyr can still drive agents of the dark insane... even mind seeds or, for that matter, quori. The death of an inspired host doesn't kill a quori spirit, but an insanity effect might just stick, at least until a telepath can repair the damage... and who knows if there are greater daelkyr with more potent powers that even quori telepath can't mend. The old quori had trouble with the giants; picking a full-on fight with the Lords of Madness isn't a good thing, if you can avoid it. Much better to trick some adventurers into solving the problem for you. ;)
Madfox said: "I am less certain about the Dealkyr, I suspect they don't really know about the Quori's existence."
I've always had the Lovecraft school of thought that madness is knowing too much. It would be my guess that the Dealkyr DO know about the Quori, but like you said, it's impossible to speculate what their plans would be if any.
I've always imagined that in their realm there is no time and everything is experienced all at once. Every event, every emotion, of every living thing that has, does, and will exists in the megaverse is all known instantaneously.
I always think of the movie Event Horizon when I try to imagine Xoriat. Especially the idea that no one ever arrives or leaves (not in the usual sense that we understand). Since time does not exist anyone who will travel there has always been there and will never leave, even if they return.
Anyway, it appears that my Venti Cappuccino has kicked in so, it's back to work for me. :o)
This leads to another question: How aware of each other's plans are they? Does the DD know of the Daekyr and vice versa? Would they view each other as rivals, almost certainly yes, but would they oppose the other?
This gives me the great idea of the PCs having to team up with some Dreaming Dark/general Quori agents to stop some Daelkyr. The "lesser" evil, as it were. Sure, they're enemies, but at least they don't want to put tentacles on your shoulders. Of course, there will be a good amount of room at the end of the adventure for the Quori to screw over the PCs at the end. Or maybe not, being lawful. They may even want to keep the PCs on their good side. Fits with the dark theme of Eberron rather well I think.
Yeah i'm toying with the idea for a campaign where the PCs are caught in the middle of conflicting quori and daelkyr plots, and both of them threaten to destabalize the world.
I LOVE the Daelkyr, they have plenty of Lovecraftian goodness to make even the most cheery of party members shudder. That and the fact that their plans and goals are inscrutible. To put a spin on the idea of the Dreaming Dark helping the players, why not the Daelkyr helping them too?
You wouldn't even have to give a reason, merely that some human with creepy looking armour has offered to help you fight the Lords of Dust or the Dreaming Dark, in exchange for a "taste" of your memories. They seem to be good for their word and always deliver what is asked, but it just feels so wrong, like your stepping that much closer to corruption each time you accept their minor offers of assistance. And when you sleep all you see are eyes staring back at you, lipless mouths whispering something you strain to hear but never can...
Yeah i'm toying with the idea for a campaign where the PCs are caught in the middle of conflicting quori and daelkyr plots, and both of them threaten to destabalize the world.
I'm currently running a game where the dealkyr and quori both have plots running at the same time, though they aren't necessarily conflicting. The PCs just dealt with a risen Dealkyr Lord that activated an ancient eldritch machine portal to Vult. The PCs are trapped on the moon right now, but they need to get back before the Dreaming Dark continues its new aggressive mind seeding policy. (They noticed the stuff going down with the Daelkyr, so they've stepped up their efforts so they can finish their goals before this active new presence in the course of history completes it's own goals.)
A campaign I'm running has some elements of daelkyr vs. quori. Sort of.
But the basics are the same. The daelkyr are a force of destruction and change. The quori are trying to avoid change, and destruction on Eberron would be devastating to them as well. I don't see them as being able to cooperate with the daelkyr. First, their goals are opposed. Second, I don't see the daelkyr as being able to cooperate with anyone.
I also ran a game in which the PCs encountered some pre-DD quori. IMC, they were as good as the current quori are evil. And they invaded Eberron for much the same reason. The darkness that was growing in Xen'drik was tainting Dal'Quor. The quori of old were seeking to prevent the turning of the age just as they do now. The only difference was that they were trying to prevent the destruction of the Dreaming Heart, and they had the option of coming to Eberron in a more physical way.
One could almost draw the parallel, the Quori are like the Vorlons compared to the Daelkyr being like the Shadows. Only with much less concern for the actual humanoids caught between them.
daelkyr vs. quori
I just couldn't resist:
(Apparently you click the image to go to my gallery for the full-sized version.)
Are there any stats for a 4e quori?
Great to have all your input. And an honor to hear from you, Keith!
I guess I was having a litte trouble getting over the same Cthulhoid vibe I was getting from both of them, but now I'm feeling a little more certain I'm understanding the Quori right. In a sense, the fact that they have an evil nature (a fondness for bad dreams) would not be a problem for the world if they didn't fear the turning of the ge. Though there's still so much I'd love to learn. I can only hope they do an article on Quori after all- (one of the few perplexing omissions from the new ECG was the lack of Tsucora Quori. Certainly adventurers might end up visiting their home; furthermore, the drawing helps embody the true nature of the Inspired.)
I tend to agree that that the Daelkyr and Quori would usually be at odds (ironically, one could set up a campaign where they feel that they have to conquer the world the better to defend it from a Daelkyr resurgence!)
Images which only I seem to find amusing aside, a very general analogy helps me to see the difference between the Lawful Evil Quori and the Chaotic Evil Daelkyr. The Quori are a lot like the machines in the Matrix movie1; they want to control us and keep us in our place so that they can go on harvesting our byproducts. The Daelkyr, on the other hand, are like the Cenobites of Hellraiser; they are inscrutable alien horrors which may decide, for reasons we could not possibly fathom, that three humans in three separate bodies is just too inefficient, and remedy it by surgically grafting the three into one body with all of the heads here, all of the organs there, and using the left-over skin to line the rest of the room.
__
1 Gosh, that was a good movie. Too bad they never made any sequels.
The Quori should know about the Daelkyr. They invade the dreams of people, and that includes people in the know. I suspect the Quori see the Daelkyr as a dangerous threat that they would strike down with impunity and as quickly as possible when discovered, although more then likely through influencing others to do their dirty work.
I am less certain about the Dealkyr, I suspect they don't really know about the Quori's existence. As Keith said, the Daelkyr are about the physical. The Quori can only influence the world indirectly, and no Quori is going to stick around in a body captured by a Daelkyr. I also would say that even if they do know about the Quori, they wouldn't really care more or less about them then any other potential enemy. Probably less since the Quori cannot directly influence the world, and the Daelkyr can shatter the mind of anything to such a degree that it is beyond the Quori's influence. Then again, the Daelkyr are a chaotic unpredictable bunch. Some of them might see the Quori as the biggest threat there is
Side note: I suspect the giants started out pretty desent, or at least wise, or else the dragons would not have taught them their magic. By the time the quori appeared though the giants were highly arrogant bastards who did not think twice about using the darkest magics. While the quori invaded the lands of the giants, we have no clue about their motivations. For all we know, the giants might have started the conflict by using some kind of dangerous dream-magic, and the quori might have decided that the giants need to be exterminated based on a Silver Flame like argument. You just have to look at the PCs to realize that in a world like Eberron you do not need to be Evil to start an invasion (although it certainly makes things easier).
As I recall, they mention in Secrets of Sarlona, that the quori oppose the daelkyr. They are well aware that the cataclysmic change that the daelkyr would bring could wipe them out. That is one of the reasons why they created the Edgewalkers.
I haven't seen anything as to whether or not the daelkyr know about the quori. I can't imagine that they don't however. I suspect it is more that they don't care. The quori are probably just one more enemy to be crushed.