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| #1skritz_the_lizardmenApr 01, 2010 13:52:07 | Im just trying to compile Canon (and pseudo-canon) information about the identity of the Overlords. According to Eternal Evil, in Dragon 337, the Rajah are numbered around thirty. Known Overlords:
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| #2HellcowApr 01, 2010 14:23:09 | Why? Put 'em wherever you want. I don't think Skritz is asking about locations, Bly. It seems like simple curiousity as to how many of the thirty have been identified. And Tiamat's on the list, along with Orcus. Tiamat was established in both Dragons of Eberron and in the 4E ECG. I personally am not familiar with Orcus being established in canon as an Overlord - is that from the Eberron conversion notes for the modules? In the 4E ECG, what's said is: Like Tiamat, demon princes or evil gods from other settings can be used as fiendish overlords in the EBERRON setting. Yeenoghu, also known as the Beast of Butchery, could have created the gnolls as soldiers in the ancient war, and the most savage gnolls still revere this demon lord. Lolth lingers in the depths of Khyber, spinning webs to ensnare the souls of the elves and the eladrin. When using evil gods in this way, remember that they are not gods in the same sense as the Sovereign Host. This doesn't establish Yeenoghu or Lolth as part of canon; it simply suggests that they or any others of their level could be Overlords if you want to use them in that way. In my Savage Tide conversion, I suggested that Demogorgon was essentialy a demi-Overlord - more powerful by far than a rakshasa, but not as powerful as an overlord, and as such also not completely bound, instead ruling a demiplane in Khyber. Looking a few more in canon, you have The Scar That Abides (City of Stormreach) and Bel Shalor (4E ECG). |
| #3skritz_the_lizardmenApr 01, 2010 14:34:51 | Looking a few more in canon, you have The Scar That Abides (City of Stormreach) and Bel Shalor (4E ECG). I never expected the creator of Eberron would answer directly. Well, thanks. I suppose most Overlord are unnamed so DM can create their own and use them as they see fit. |
| #4bobiagoApr 01, 2010 15:43:10 | The flexibility is valuable. Personally, I like to use as much crunchy material as I am given, so being able to map a Demon Prince for which a wealth of crunch exists (Orcus) to a Rajah/Overlord for whom there is naught but fluff (Katashka) is a positive boon. |
| #5skritz_the_lizardmenApr 01, 2010 16:11:14 | I prefer not using the classic Demon Lord and Archdevil. Sure, they are cool exist in any homebrewed setting but part of the fun of Eberron is having something different. Of course, Orcus could be an Avatar of Katashka or one of his more powerful servant. |
| #6HellcowApr 01, 2010 17:49:01 | Of course, Orcus could be an Avatar of Katashka or one of his more powerful servant. This was the approach I took with Demogorgon in the Savage Tide campaign. Among other things, one of the key points of the Overlords is that they are tightly bound, and that if they break those prisons they will wreak havoc on the world. With Savage Tide being a campaign in which Demogorgon plays an active role, where he has a court where he's personally attended by followers, where he's directly engaged in feuds with other demon princes - this was all at odds with the image of the Lords of Dust, where the Speakers of the bound Overlords meet in the ruins of their ancient citadels. So rather than just making Demogorgon an Overlord, I presented the idea of demiplanes within Khyber - which ultimately made its way into 4E with the idea that you can find passages into the Elemental Chaos by physically exploring Khyber - and made the demon princes rulers of these realms. The idea was that they were generals of that first war... subordinates of the Overlords, but now the mightiest spirits left unbound. While you could make Orcus a servant of Katashka, presenting him as a servant of anything is a significant change to his flavor. My preference would be to say that he was Katashka's exarch in the first age... but now he has severed ties with the Lords of Dust and intends to steal Katashka's might for his own (a parallel to his core struggle with the Raven Queen). This gives him a unique twist for Eberron, and could end up with an interesting storyline where spirits loyal to the imprisoned Overlord work with the adventurers to fight the demon prince. Of course, it could be that Orcus is the only thing keeping Katashka from breaking free from his own prison... and if the adventurers truly defeat Orcus, Katashka will rise. Can they find a way to overcome both of the lords of death? |
| #7HellcowApr 01, 2010 18:01:43 | Personally, I like to use as much crunchy material as I am given, so being able to map a Demon Prince for which a wealth of crunch exists (Orcus) to a Rajah/Overlord for whom there is naught but fluff (Katashka) is a positive boon. I prefer not using the classic Demon Lord and Archdevil. While I'd probably go with Orcus-as-ambitious-upstart if I used him... if the issue is being able to use the crunch, but wanting a campaign that doesn't feel like you're using all the same characters from core... the flip side of taking Orcus and saying "He's an Overlord" is to simply change his name to Katashka and use all the crunch as it exists. You have your cultists, the dread Rod of Katashka, the Dark Gift of the Undying, even a renamed Doresain as one of the Lords of Dust; you're just not using the familiar name. So essentially, the question is whether name recognition and appearance is important. If it's not, you can give all the crunch and any relevant fluff to an existing Overlord and minimize the impact on Eberron cosmology. If it is, you can just make him an Overlord, or you can find another option as described above. |
| #8OgiwanApr 02, 2010 13:09:21 | I never expected the creator of Eberron would answer directly. Well, thanks. I suppose most Overlord are unnamed so DM can create their own and use them as they see fit. One of the reasons I am a huge Eberron fan is because His Infernal Bovinity (Hellcow/Mr. Baker) does post regularly. When he posts, they're almost always very well put together, useful, and allow quite a few possibilities to spring forth. More importantly, he does not indulge in the instinctive reaction of the creator to hiss and ridicule ideas that go against his version of the world. I have to say that I would be hard-pressed to not screech "No! You have it ALL WRONG!" if somebody changed my baby. That said, I conceive of Rajahs as looming menaces; the goal is to make sure they don't get free, not stick them back in their hole. So, I've never thought of anything about the Rajahs themselves, only about their minions. Thinking about it now, that's probably something I should rectify.... Well, thinking about it some more, how would the characteristics of a Rajah affect its followers? |
| #9lord_goreJul 05, 2010 11:45:09 | I've been very interested in the Lords of Dust since they made their first appearance on Eberron Campaign Setting (3e) and I too am trying to get a good hold of them. Perhaps you will find my list a bit more exhaustive, as it includes (I hope) every rakshasa rajah. Furthermore, I'd be glad if anyone would point me any missing fiend.
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| #10PJammaGodJul 08, 2010 1:28:41 | I have to say Lord_Gore that is one hell of a comprehensive list. I thought I knew all of the Rajah's, but you have more than a few I was unaware of. Cheerski for the listing (as well as book/magazine listings)! |
| #11OgiwanJul 08, 2010 20:12:47 | Just over half of the Rajahs? That's pretty good work, but still leaves us with plenty of room to make our own. I really wish the Dungeon and Dragons from before 150 were available to us via DDI...... |
| #12lord_goreJul 12, 2010 7:50:47 | I've updated the listing and reformatted it for an easier reading. Enjoy! |
| #13AvonRekaesJul 12, 2010 8:45:18 | Great list! Though I'm not really too sure about Cyl-Maaldrake's status as a rajah. He's just a balor. A unique one, sure, but certainly not on par with even Orcus, who is below Rajah status. (In 3.5 at least) |
| #14lord_goreJul 12, 2010 9:18:52 | Thanks for the correction, I've checked and it is NOT a rajah... The list's has been updated accordingly. It's debatable whether Orcus is on par with a Rajah or below. There are many who consider the Demon Lords / Archdevils as Rajahs and some who don't. Looking at the rules for Overlords (Dragon Magazine 337) shows that he is heavily underpowered (missing a loads of HDs and class levels, as well as Overlords traits) but he can be upgraded to meet those standard... Yet he's got loads of other features and the almost godly status that allows him to reach those levels. I personally prefer to leave out the Demon Lords and the Archdevils and flesh out my Na-Vakhtis as I prefer. |
| #15AvonRekaesJul 12, 2010 9:39:32 | True enough. I was always annoyed at PGtE for suggesting using Levistus as a Rajah, because Rajahs were closer in power to Divine Rank 5-9 Lesser Gods from Deities and Demigods, not CR 30ish demon lords/archdevils. In the current edition, though, the power gap between gods and fiend lords is smaller (only a handful of levels or so), so it's easier to use, say, Graz'zt as a Rajah. (Just bump him up a few levels, and give him a Discorporate trait). Even then, though, I'd mainly use them as mechanical templates to build a completely different being around. (Kind of like using the stats for Orcus for Katashka. It's not really Orcus anymore.) |
| #16lord_goreJul 12, 2010 10:13:12 | just bump him a few levels Rajahs are native outsiders with 20 HDs AND some 30-to-50 class levels. It's a lot of bumping... I'd rather call it skyrocketing! :D using Levistus as a Rajah Oh, by the way you've just hit my only doubt on the whole compilation: in the PGtE it states that Levistus is a rajah, but it DOES NOT make any hint at the name of "Draal Khatuur, the Heart of Winter". And googling it up yelds no results... Could you (or anyone) please point me to that source? |
| #17AvonRekaesJul 12, 2010 10:23:36 | I was speaking about the current edition of the game, 4th edition. Orcus is a level 33 Solo, and Vecna (a god of comparative strength to Rajahs in 3.5) is a level 35 Solo in 4e. So all you'd need to do to Orcus to make him feel like a Rajah, in 4th edition, is to bump him up 2 levels and give him a Discorporation trait. (Can't speak to Draal Khatuur, the Heart of Winter, though. Sorry) |
| #18lord_goreJul 12, 2010 11:11:32 | Sorry, but I am not keen with 4e rules... I never made the upgrade so I can't say how to possibly use Demon Lords or Archfiends as rajahs. If I am not wrong, Bel Shalor the Shadow in the Flame (ECG 4e) is a 34 level monster. Don't know about that Discorporation trait but I'd say that no bumping is required... To make things easier, I would compare Orcus and Bel Shalor to find the relevant differencies to be applied on the other fiends to make them look like rajahs. |
| #19HellcowJul 12, 2010 18:34:00 | Oh, by the way you've just hit my only doubt on the whole compilation: in the PGtE it states that Levistus is a rajah, but it DOES NOT make any hint at the name of "Draal Khatuur, the Heart of Winter". And googling it up yelds no results... Could you (or anyone) please point me to that source? I'm curious about this myself; the Heart of Winter is my creation, but as far as I know neither of the two pieces I've used her in (Sunless Feoral, creatred for in-print Dragon, and the Frostfell entry for the ECG) were actually published. Did one of these actually get published, or is she just being drawn from my board posts? In any case, I wrote a piece on the Frostfell for the 4E ECG that clarified the Levistus piece. The Heart of Winter is an Overlord bound beneath the Frostfell and the lost colony of Sunless Feoral. Levistus is an archdevil cast down from Shavarath and imprisoned in the floating city of Icerazer; but while he is physically imprisoned, he is still conscious and able to act, and he is the ruler of his city. So he is less powerful than a rajah but also someone you could go have a conversation with right now. Looking to Draal Khatuur, I actually created 3E stats for her back in the day - I should ping Paizo and see if there's any issue with me posting those somewhere. Among other things, she spreads the effects of a fimbulwinter spell within a few miles of her location if released, and this effect will increase the longer she stays out - so she could spread a new ice age across a country. This is one of the key points to Overlords for me, especially in 4E. Their combat stats are one aspect of them, but their non-combat effects on the world are equally important. If Rak Tulkhesh is free, he will drive the mortals around him to war. Bel Shalor turns your shadows against you, and brings out the darkness within people. Tiamat corrupts the hearts of dragons. These are story effects that transcend rules; if Bel Shalor is out, people in the area of his influence will start to become selfish and cruel. It won't affect PCs or exceptional people, or anyone the DM wants to be safe from it. But it's what makes the Rajahs so dangerous; they transform the world around them. |
| #20juanpierreJul 12, 2010 21:50:59 | These are story effects that transcend rules; if Bel Shalor is out, people in the area of his influence will start to become selfish and cruel. It won't affect PCs or exceptional people, or anyone the DM wants to be safe from it. But it's what makes the Rajahs so dangerous; they transform the world around them. This is actually something that my DM is doing in the campaign I play in. It seems like Bel Shalor is getting loose, and the group has fought our own shadows a few times already. Pretty cool way to start facing the Overlord already without actually facing him. |
| #21Madfox11Jul 13, 2010 3:21:59 | In 4E they increased the power level of many demonlords who are now only just behind the gods. At the same time they decreased the relative powerlevel of the gods as well. The discorporation trait is something unique to the gods, meaning that unless the opponent takes special precautions a god dissappears when bloodied and hence cannot be killed at all. Most demonlords do not have this power, although Orcus has been killed several times and somehow he was ressurected again and again. Regardless, in 4E they removed class levels from monsters, and to be honest, it is a change I like. I also have no problems with the downgrade of the dieites. Killing gods by semi-mortal heroes is part of mythology, and if you don't like such an aspect in your game you can always ignore it (or simply avoid epic levels ;) ). Personally I also feel that the more powerful demonlords of 4E actually fit the rajahs of Eberron much better then the versions of 3E. They are on par with the gods in power, and more importantly, they all represent/focus on a specific aspect of corruption and evil something that can be used directly to detail the non-combat effects Keith mentions. I highly advice people playing 4E Eberron to take a look at the Demonomicon, and not just for the new demons. The Abyss itself might not be useful, but some of the new demonlords are very useful and the details on using demons in your campaigns (including demonic possessions) can certainly be applied to Eberron. |
| #22lord_goreJul 13, 2010 4:49:41 | Did one of these actually get published, or is she just being drawn from my board posts? I pulled it off the very first post of this thread, and I'm afraid I made the mistake to link her with Levistus. I'll update the table by removing the source and notes entries on Draal Khatuur. I'd appreciate a lot if you could give me her stats and domains so I can update the list. Furthermore, I'll try to add the domains relevant to each Overlord, where applicable of course. This way DMs can understand how each Na-Vakhti influences the mortals. The discorporation trait is something unique to the gods As stated before, I don't know 4e rules. But for the 3.5 rules, the real power behind the Overlords come from their Embodiment of Evil, Immortal Spirits, and Remote Sensing and Communication traits... And I just guess that's what puts them on a different level from the canon Archdevils and Demon Lords. They sound like demigods to me, but it's been a while since I opened the Deities and Demigods manual so I'm not so sure about it. And the domains feature just enforces it in my opinion: being able to shape the world around them with their "essences" is not something common, even for the lot of Orcus or Asmodeus. |
| #23AvonRekaesJul 13, 2010 8:59:42 | As far as 3.5 is concerned, you're mostly right. However, they weren't actually demigods. They did not actually have a divine rank, but had abilities (some of which you mention) that simultated the effects of having a divine rank of about 5 to 9 (The power of a Lesser God). So for all intents and purposes, they were as powerful as gods (but weren't actually divine). |
| #24lord_goreJul 13, 2010 9:08:55 | I've updated the table with the domains (where available). Enjoy! I've also noticed that Sul Khatesh's influence overlaps with Bel Shalor... So I made a quick research and tried to fill in the missing domains (3.5 only), trying to take into account the various descriptions and informations about each known Overlord (official domains are in black while my suggestions are in blue).
[off topic] The other night, my players asked me about the Lords of Dust and the fiends in general. I made them roll Knowledge checks and they succeeded brilliantly. I then proceeded to explain them about the Khyber's bloodspawn, the Age of Fiends, the various fiends themselves and their loose organization (Lords of Dust, Bleak Congress, the Rajahs[Na-Vakhti]-Prakhutus-Fangs of Khyber chain of command, and so on...), the myths (the Shadow in the Flame) and all the the bits I could conceive/remember (various locations)... I left out only the Rajahs' true names and their areas of influence, as well as the Remnants of Creation (PGtE p. 31). Then I went completely off-board by stating that, while all the fiends were spawned by Khyber's spilled blood, the Rajahs were different from the standard rakshasas: besides being far more powerful, they were also warped by their domains and had distinctive physical characteristics that made them stand out from each other. I was mislead by Yad-Raghesh's description (colossal two-deaded tiger fiend) and I assumed that each Overlord was physically unique. After reading the Lords of Dust article on Dragon Magazine 337, I knew I had made a mistake since those portraits depict normal rakshasas albeit far more powerful, yet I still think that having some warped Overlords throws in some fun and makes the players feel the raw power of Khyber's blood. [/off topic] On another note, I also found some discordancy on the prakhutus' statistics: in some cases they are normal rakshasas, in other cases they're ak'chazar rakshasas. In my campaign, all prakhutus are ak'chazar rakshasas (except in the cases of Korliak, Mazyralyx, and Mordakhesh) and they have sorcerer (instead of wizard) levels and/or prestige classes level. In Hektula's particular case, however, I felt she deserved a special treatment due to her librarian and scribe tasks, so I gave her the Arcane PreparationCArc and the Scribe Scroll feats to reflect her ability to prepare spells from the dusty tomes stored in Ashtakala's vaults. |
| #25OgiwanJul 13, 2010 9:39:37 | Truth be told, I like the idea of each of the Rajahs being unique. Of course, how many Rajahs will the PCs actually fight in the course of a campaign? If its more than one, the DM is a sadist. That said, isn't the Rajah trapped in Mel-Aqat the Fleshraker (or something like that) of Wyatt's (quite excellent, IMO) Claws of the Tiger? The only good book of the War-Torn series, IMO. |
| #26lord_goreJul 13, 2010 10:54:06 | isn't the Rajah trapped in Mel-Aqat the Fleshraker I double checked and you're right: it should be Shudra the Fleshrender. Thanks for the info! The list has been update accordingly. Enjoy! |
| #27ellorinJul 13, 2010 11:03:50 |
Strange...I failed to notice that. If anything, Sul Khatesh's favourite form sounds nothing like a rakshasa, not to mention Katashka's depiction in Dragons of Eberron. Incidentally, in my next campaign I might use dear old Sul Khatesh and I am stron;y considering using some...Lolth elements. No, seriously. Not the drow parts, of course, but I did imagine the Keeper of Secrets as a huge, bloated spider in the center of her web gathering dark knowledge, using part of it as bait and devouring the fools who are trapped in the forementioned web. Consider it an alternative form(the humanoid one? Probably a sadow version of the perfect Eladrin-and then there is the article's, naturally.). Thus, the MM3 Lolth stats with a modification or two would suffice. |
| #28HellcowJul 13, 2010 11:38:43 | After reading the Lords of Dust article on Dragon Magazine 337, I knew I had made a mistake since those portraits depict normal rakshasas albeit far more powerful, yet I still think that having some warped Overlords throws in some fun and makes the players feel the raw power of Khyber's blood. The Overlords aren't rakshasas. I don't have the article in front of me, but the quote from my ORIGINAL draft of it states "The top tier belongs to the Overlords. These spirits are also known as rakshasa rajahs, as they ruled these lesser spirits in the dawn of time, but each Overlord is a unique and powerful spirit, not simply an advanced rakshasa." Likewise, in the 4E ECG, note that Bel Shalor doesn't have the rakshasa keyword. The essential idea behind the Overlords' advanced Change Form is that they are what they want to be. Their true forms are unique; Tiamat, for example, would be a five-headed dragon. You say that "the portraits depict normal rakshasas". That's because the portraits are all of normal rakshasas. The Overlords are bound, so the images are of the rakshasas and other creatures that serve them: Durastoran Wyrmbreaker; Hektula the Bloody Scribe; Kashtarhak the Voice of Chaos; and so on. But these are prakhutu, not Overlords. The only Overlord pictured is Sul Khatesh, who doesn't look like a rakshasa - and even then, that's simply a form she likes. She could be whatever she wants, and each Overlord should be different. |
| #29HellcowJul 13, 2010 12:13:56 | I'll update the table by removing the source and notes entries on Draal Khatuur. I'd appreciate a lot if you could give me her stats and domains so I can update the list. I'm not comfortable posting her full stats until I check with Paizo, but I see nothing wrong with posting her stat block. Her name is actually Dral Khatuur (not Draal), the Heart of Winter. She's a Druid 25/Sorcerer 15/Frost Mage 10, with the domains of Death, Cold, and Winter (something called out in the article as being an unusual level of power). I've replaced the Madness and Shadow domains with Darkness and Truth: I felt that the Madness domain was more fitting to the followers of the Daelkyr, and the Shadow was Bel Shalor's area of influence, but Darkness is a close fit. I wouldn't swap Madness for Truth, personally. The reason she's called the Truth in the Darkness is because the shadows hold truths that will drive you mad. If you read her write-up, she's all about madness; "Fearsome truths are hidden in the shadows. Secrets of magic. The hidden thoughts of those you consider your friends. The terrible deeds of ancestors. The moment you will die. Tul Oreshka embodies these horrible secrets. Her actions are never predictable, and she can be as much of a threat to her allies as to her enemies. Anyone who passes by her prison may suffer nightmares or hear terrible things in ghostly whispers, and children born or conceived near her tomb are always insane. Her release would be heralded by a wave of madness: she is not a subtle force." If I was to change anything, it would be to drop Shadow/Darkness for Truth; the darkness element is far less important than the madness - the fact that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! Does this overlap with the Daelkyr? Sure. But she was part of Eberron for hundreds of thousands of years before the Daelkyr showed up. She reflects the fear and threat of madness that lurks in every living thing. The Daelkyr are also of a lower power level than the Overlords - notably, they don't have domains. She is an embodiment of madness; they are lords of the Realm of Madness. Two different things. Beyond this, I'm not personally concerned with the idea of Overlords overlapping in individual categories, as long as the combination is unique. Rak Tulkhesh is the Rage of War, and his domains are War and Hatred. Per his description, "Rak Tulkhesh embodies the hatred and bloodlust that drives mortals to war" - which is a different thing that the destruction caused by war. The Unmaker might also be hatred, but it's hatred pushed in a different direction. If you look to the actual gods, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery are all aspects of War and share the domain; it's the combination of domains that defines them. I don't see any harm in trading Shadow for Darkness. But there is a difference between a spirit of War and Hatred and one of War and Destruction, in my opinion. Rak Tulkhesh thrives on agression itself. He drives people to war. The destruction it causes is an afterthought to him - not his fundamental nature. But that's just my opinion, of course. |
| #30lord_goreJul 13, 2010 14:52:14 | If its more than one, the DM is a sadist. I feel I have to improve my bluff skills. Sul Khatesh's favourite form sounds nothing like a rakshasa Yes, you're right. But remember that Sul Khatesh is the Keeper of Secrets and his form just reflect those mysteries so, as far as we know, she could very well look like a normal rakshasa if unveiled from those shadows. And that would require a truly epic hero! I am stron;y considering using some...Lolth elements I too was planning to use a spider overlord, something like Miska the Wolf-Spider from "The Rod of Seven Parts" (AD&D): a three-headed, four-armed huge spider. Talk about nightmares... Anyway, using an already fleshed out 4e Demon Lord will surely save your time: as you noted yourself, just a few tweaks and she's ready to battle your adventurers. The Overlords aren't rakshasas. I then didn't go too far off the mark, even if deceived by those prakhutus' portraits, when I said that I felt Rajahs to be unique. They ARE unique forces, stemming out from the blood of creation itself. I'll just stick to the unwritten rule of the distinctive tiger part of the Rajahs (head, fur, eyes, paws, tail, etc.) being the only common thing they share, along with the power. I'm not comfortable posting her full stats until I check with Paizo, but I see nothing wrong with posting her stat block. Her name is actually Dral Khatuur (not Draal), the Heart of Winter. She's a Druid 25 / Sorcerer 15 / Frost Mage 10, with the domains of Death, Cold, and Winter (something called out in the article as being an unusual level of power). That's exactly what I hoped you could provide me with. Many thanks for being so helpful! To be honest, when I first saw her name I thought: "What? A Dhakaani name for a rakshasa rajah?". Anyway, I don't think she's at an unusual level of power if compared to the other Na-Vakhtis: the average sits at a truly fiendish CR of about 65: 20 HD, 40 class levels and a generous +5 for all the uber-powered traits. The lowest-ranking rajah who ironically is also mistaken for a deity, Katashka the Gatekeeper, has a CR of 55 and Dral Khatuur is only 75... I wouldn't swap Madness for Truth, personally. The reason she's called the Truth in the Darkness is because the shadows hold truths that will drive you mad. If you read her write-up, she's all about madness; "Fearsome truths are hidden in the shadows. Secrets of magic. The hidden thoughts of those you consider your friends. The terrible deeds of ancestors. The moment you will die. Tul Oreshka embodies these horrible secrets. Her actions are never predictable, and she can be as much of a threat to her allies as to her enemies. Anyone who passes by her prison may suffer nightmares or hear terrible things in ghostly whispers, and children born or conceived near her tomb are always insane. Her release would be heralded by a wave of madness: she is not a subtle force." If I was to change anything, it would be to drop Shadow/Darkness for Truth; the darkness element is far less important than the madness - the fact that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! I'm sorry but I fail to see the madness in there. Even the last word says quite the contrary. But I can see your point, being the Truth domain a sissy one: mass true seeing at 9th-level? Otherwise than that, I really don't see insanity in her description, rather unbearable knowledge for the commoner so I'd go with Knowledge as an alternative option. Maybe even a Knowledge and Truth could work. Beyond this, I'm not personally concerned with the idea of Overlords overlapping in individual categories, as long as the combination is unique. Rak Tulkhesh is the Rage of War, and his domains are War and Hatred. Per his description, "Rak Tulkhesh embodies the hatred and bloodlust that drives mortals to war" - which is a different thing that the destruction caused by war. The Unmaker might also be hatred, but it's hatred pushed in a different direction. If you look to the actual gods, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery are all aspects of War and share the domain; it's the combination of domains that defines them. I don't see any harm in trading Shadow for Darkness. But there is a difference between a spirit of War and Hatred and one of War and Destruction, in my opinion. Rak Tulkhesh thrives on agression itself. He drives people to war. The destruction it causes is an afterthought to him - not his fundamental nature. I totally agree on your reasoning about the overlapping domain and I will try to fix those domains, especially on the definition (that list was a draft, and I was figuring out how to work with domains). Only thing I can add is that I didn't modify the already given domains (save for Tul Oreshka): those are the ones given in the Eternal Evil article but the forum didn't keep the formatting (should be fixed now). Should I consider it as a review and put it in the table? But that's just my opinion, of course. ^_^ List's updated, as usual. Enjoy! |
| #31HellcowJul 13, 2010 17:27:30 | I'm sorry but I fail to see the madness in there. Even the last word says quite the contrary. But I can see your point, being the Truth domain a sissy one: mass true seeing at 9th-level? Otherwise than that, I really don't see insanity in her description, rather unbearable knowledge for the commoner so I'd go with Knowledge as an alternative option. Maybe even a Knowledge and Truth could work. If the text doesn't make it clear, I suppose I'm to blame for that. But as the person who created Tul Oreshka, she's supposed to be the embodiment of the Lovecraftian concept of secrets man wasn't meant to know. On a mundane level, this could come to your every failure (both past and yet to come), the true thoughts of those you think to be your friends, the worst experiences in your life that you have supressed and forgotten to keep going... the things that are true but which we ignore and avoid in our everyday lives. On a less mundane level, this could be the way in which the Prophecy actually defines reality; the horror of what awaits you in Dolurrh; the fragile nature of the border between our world and, say, Xoriat; the true nature of time; what really WAS lurking in your closet when you were a child; and far worse things I can't even concieve of because I, Keith, am a mortal human. These aren't things that you as DM could just say "Oh, she explains the Prophecy to you", because the mortal human mind can't assimilate that knowledge; if she plants it in your head, revealing the true shape and form of reality, she will break your mind. The vital point of the Overlords is that they aren't gods; they are the embodiments of terrifying things. Tul Oreshka isn't simply a goddess of knowledge; she is the embodiment of the knowledge you don't want to know, of truths that will drive you mad. At least, that's what I was going for. ;) |
| #32AvonRekaesJul 13, 2010 18:16:20 | To amend your list, Lord Gore, I do believe the Scar that Abides should have the Hatred domain too. The "scar that abides" refers to hatred itself, a seething, wallowing hatred that festers inside the soul, scabbing over into a loathing, brooding wrath that cannot be abated. I agree with Tyranny as well, and I forget if there's a domain for Vengeance or not, but he should probably have it to. |
| #33Madfox11Jul 14, 2010 4:17:48 | Shouldn't Tiamat be added to the list? I am not sure whether or not she is a rajah by the book, but she is definitely an overlord and she is the embodiment of greed, arrogance and wrath of the dragons. |
| #34HellcowJul 14, 2010 4:31:01 | Shouldn't Tiamat be added to the list? I am not sure whether or not she is a rajah by the book, but she is definitely an overlord and she is the embodiment of greed, arrogance and wrath of the dragons. By the book, "rakshasa rajah" is essentially a title like "King of the Apes". It doesn't mean that the person in question IS a rakshasa, merely that they are served by rakshasa. As a result, when dealing with overlords who don't usually associate with rakshasa (which actually includes Dral Khatuur) it may make sense not to use the term rajah. Dragons of Eberron never uses the term "rajah" for Tiamat, instead holding to "overlord". However, it notes that she has rakshasa among her followers, along with half-dragon rakshasa who often serve as intermediaries between the Talons of Tiamat and the Lords of Dust. So it depends on exactly what the list is. The title of the thread is "Overlords" - and by canon, Tiamat is certainly an overlord. |
| #35lord_goreJul 14, 2010 7:28:26 | If the text doesn't make it clear, I suppose I'm to blame for that. But as the person who created Tul Oreshka, she's supposed to be the embodiment of the Lovecraftian concept of secrets man wasn't meant to know. On a mundane level, this could come to your every failure (both past and yet to come), the true thoughts of those you think to be your friends, the worst experiences in your life that you have supressed and forgotten to keep going... the things that are true but which we ignore and avoid in our everyday lives. On a less mundane level, this could be the way in which the Prophecy actually defines reality; the horror of what awaits you in Dolurrh; the fragile nature of the border between our world and, say, Xoriat; the true nature of time; what really WAS lurking in your closet when you were a child; and far worse things I can't even concieve of because I, Keith, am a mortal human. These aren't things that you as DM could just say "Oh, she explains the Prophecy to you", because the mortal human mind can't assimilate that knowledge; if she plants it in your head, revealing the true shape and form of reality, she will break your mind. Then maybe we should drop her Darkness/Shadow domain and go with Knowledge and Madness: that way her lore would be maintained, as well as its insane effect on mortals. To amend your list, Lord Gore, I do believe the Scar that Abides should have the Hatred domain too. The "scar that abides" refers to hatred itself, a seething, wallowing hatred that festers inside the soul, scabbing over into a loathing, brooding wrath that cannot be abated. I've replaced Fate with Hatred. Also, being reported as the most powerful Overlord, I was considering giving him 3 or more domains, like Dral Khatuur. I like the idea of him having Hatred, Time and Tyranny. To my knowledge, there's no Vengeance domain but the closest call would be the Storm one. Shouldn't Tiamat be added to the list?by canon, Tiamat is certainly an overlord. My bad: the spreadsheet I'm working on is a compilation of Lords of Dust only, so I neglected her. She's been added to the list, along with the Corruption, Dragon, Greed and Pride domains. Enjoy! @Ellorin: you stated Katashka's depiction in Dragons of Eberron I can't find any depiction of Katashka in that book. Only thing I found was the Harvest of Pain (p. 36)... What were you referring to? @Hellcow: I was pondering about the possible Overlord imprisoned in the Tempest's Isle, Lhazaar Principalities. I can't reckon exactly where, but I read that an agent of the Lords of Dust was at the side of the explorer Lhazaar when he set sail for Khorvaire. Wouldn't that be a sort of affirmation that an Overlord lies there? Furthermore, I didn't understand if you want to review the Overlords domains (like Rak Tulkhesh's Destruction domain changed to Hatred). If you do, I'll update the list on the first page accordingly. *** A few minor corrections on the list on first page of the thread have been made, and here's the latest work in progress of the domain for each Overlord (official one are in black, my suggestions are in blue).
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| #36PJammaGodJul 15, 2010 10:31:56 | Hey Keith any word on whether you can post some info on Dral Khatuur at all? To be honest I've been working with this Rajah in my campaign in the background for some time. Dral is the endgame, the big-bad and source of all things nasty for nearly two years now. I've been noting the distinct weather changes (summer too cold, winter very bitter) amongst other elements. But having some raw crunchy goodness to give me an idea of how I shoud really field her would be awesome. |
| #37HellcowJul 15, 2010 14:20:32 | Hey Keith any word on whether you can post some info on Dral Khatuur at all? I think I'll be able to post the piece on my website, but I'd still like to hear back from a few people. @Ellorin: you stated Katashka's depiction in Dragons of Eberron... I can't find any depiction of Katashka in that book. Only thing I found was the Harvest of Pain (p. 36)... What were you referring to? I think Ellorin is refering to page 6, which shows a battle between Katashka and Dularanahk. @Hellcow: I was pondering about the possible Overlord imprisoned in the Tempest's Isle, Lhazaar Principalities. I can't reckon exactly where, but I read that an agent of the Lords of Dust was at the side of the explorer Lhazaar when he set sail for Khorvaire. Wouldn't that be a sort of affirmation that an Overlord lies there? It's from "Eternal Evil": A hidden alliance of rakshasa and other fiends, the Lords of Dust have manipulated the world since the dawn of time. The rakshasa wove themselves into the tapestry of human civilization in its earliest days. When the explorer Lhazaar gathered her expedition for Khorvaire, there was a rakshasa advisor at her side. The reference to the Lord of Dust traveling with Lhazaar isn't due to the presence of an Overlord in any particular location, but rather the fact that the Lords of Dust have been present and influenced many critical points of history. There were Lords of Dust hidden among the Dhakaani during the Daelkyr War. A Lord of Dust marched with Karrn the Conqueror. And so on. It's about the Prophecy. The Prophecy shows them the path the future must take in order to release an Overlord; the Prakhutu and their pawns work to bring about those events. This ties to the idea that the plans of the Lords of Dust can take thousands of years to bring about. Say, for example, that the Mourning was actually a side effect of the release of a rajah. Due to the Prophecy, the Prakhutu of this Overlord has known that his rajah would be released when a Khorvairian Kingdom of men ended a thousand years of peace by splitting into five nations and warring for a century... and only then when a vampire king clashed with a holy child, when the lifeless were given life (warforged), and so on, and so on. This meant that they knew that there had to BE a human kingdom on Khorvaire; that it had to have five easy pieces; that it had to last a thousand years; that there had to be a vampire king and a theocracy led by a little girl; and so on. So that rakshasa with Lhazaar was simply advancing the first step of a plot they new would take thousands of years to come to fruition. If you wanted to get truly conspiratorial about it, you could say that Bel Shalor intentionally held back, allowing himself to be defeated by Tira, because this led directly to the creation of the modern Church of the Silver Flame, which led to the theocracy in Thrane, which led to Jaela becoming Keeper, and so on. For Bel Shalor to make such a sacrifice, there'd have to be a truly impressive end goal - perhaps the ultimate destruction of the Silver Flame and release of ALL the Overlords - but it's the way they work. They are immortal, and their plans stretch out over millenia. Entire civilizations are pawns to them. This is the whole trick of the Lords of Dust. If they're so powerful, why don't they just conquer the world? Because they have no interest in ruling the world. As far as they are concerned, they already rule the world. What they want is to release the Overlords - and that's something that can only be done by guiding history down a specific path. Actually openly conquering the world would guide it down a different path... and ruling a bunch of short-lived monkeys just isn't that exciting for them. (Of course, if that's the story you want, you could decide that Rak Tulkhesh will be released when his servants DO physically conquer the world. But as it stands, the idea of the LoD is that they are the ultimate manipulators - and that they have been pulling strings long before humans came to Khorvaire, or before human civilization even existed.) |
| #38Madfox11Jul 16, 2010 3:35:40 | Of course, the Lords of Dust are also opposed by the dragons of Argonesse, who are just as knowledgable on the Prophecy as they are and just as good at manipulating people. Personally I always really disliked it in stories when no matter what the heroes do, they do it wrong*. I am playing Eberron here, not Call of Cthulhu ;) That is a personal preference though, and I am sure that just because the Lords of Dust belief they rule the world and everything happens as planned, in reality it is not the case. * It is one of the things that really irritated me by the end of the Dark Knight. Great movie, but how much planning can go off exactly as planned? How smart can a person be? How many coincidences take place? ;) |
| #39lord_goreJul 16, 2010 7:35:21 | I think Ellorin is refering to page 6, which shows a battle between Katashka and Dularanahk. D'oh! I dunno why but I totally missed that depiction! Anyway, thanks for the tip. The reference to the Lord of Dust traveling with Lhazaar isn't due to the presence of an Overlord in any particular location, but rather the fact that the Lords of Dust have been present and influenced many critical points of history. Ok, I just thought that it sounded like that particular LoD wanted to brings some humans under the Overlord's direct influence while letting them discover and settle in a new continent. That could have been the case as well... the Lords of Dust belief they rule the world and everything happens as planned I don't think that either the Dragons or the Lords of Dust are THAT keen in unfolding the Prophecy as they deem fit. They TRY to manipulate it, but in most cases there are so many requirements for a prophecy to come into being or into being voided that they need hundreds or thousands of coincidences to set an Overlord free, and not all of them are guided, some happen by chance, just as they fail by chance... On another note, a prophet or a loremaster close to the heroes could warn them of the impending probability of a passage to come into being and they just step into the fray and battle their way to "safety" from that prophetized catastrophic event. Furthermore, I think that the Prophecy has its way, unbeknownst to mortals, and the events might be postponed but not voided (much like Judgment Day from the Terminator series) and thus the heroes are only delaying the inevitable. This could explain the patience of the Lords of Dust or the madness/fury of Zenobaal, for they seem to know how it ends (Armageddon? Ragnarok? Creation collapsing onto itself and rebirthing itself anew?). There are so many possibilities... [off topic] My heroes encountered by chance the greatest aboleth settlement of Eberron. Having succesfully bested them all, they plundered their ages-long hoard and retrieved two particularly interesting rewards: one was an Altar of Transmutation (eldritch device) while the other was the Heart of the Aboleths (artifact). Seeking an explanation on what was the artifact's function, they discovered that the aboleths weren't from this creation. They were a race of a now lost creation, which abruptly came to an end. Having foresaw the impending doom, they reunited themselves and slew their own god, sacrificing its power to escape that impending extinction and to travel to a safer creation (Eberron's). [/off topic] So, as you can see, I've introduced something like Moorcock's Multiverse: it's on many layers, through time and space and with a a constant: the Prophecy, that rules the balance of Multiverse, allowing for the various creations to be given birth, live and die, just like everything and also preventing different universes to eat each other. But this is known only to the greatest being (namely immortal beings, demigods and gods), while the less powerful being can only see the smallest effects of the Prophecy within their small world, not on a planar or universal scale. In my opinion, both the Overlords and the mightiest Dragons know that this creation will come to an end and they just try to delay it, ruin it or rule it (depending on their personal viewpoint). Exceptional beings can rise to godhood and escape their fate, others simply cannot: they will just die when their time will come. Of course, this is the explanation I've come up with. Yours will surely be different, taking into account different factors. Hell, it could even be possible for the Prophecy to die! Just imagine the Underverse from the Chronicles of Riddick: what if the Negative Energy that permeates it found a way to subvert or taint an universe or, even worse, the Prophecy itself? Just my 2 cents. |
| #40HellcowJul 16, 2010 13:03:20 | Personally I always really disliked it in stories when no matter what the heroes do, they do it wrong*. I am playing Eberron here, not Call of Cthulhu ;) That is a personal preference though, and I am sure that just because the Lords of Dust believe they rule the world and everything happens as planned, in reality it is not the case. Exactly. The Lords of Dust are exactly as capable as you want them to be in your game. If they aren't the major villains of your game, they can be far less influential and powerful than they believe, and their failure to release an overlord can be not due to having to wait so long for the stars to be right, but rather because they've just screwed up or been defeated. They can be just as flawed or fallible as any other creature. Even if they ARE as brilliant as they can be, as you say, they are playing their game with other creatures that are just as brilliant and powerful - the Chamber, the Undying Court - and they won't come out ahead every time. Beyond that, the LoD are not a monolithic organization, and the Prakhutu of Katashka may end up helping the PCs against the Prakhutu of Rak Tulkhesh, because their goals clash. The PCs may be pawns in this huge game, but they are also the heroes of the age, and they may break the rules - doing things none of these ancient masterminds ever expected. On the other hand, let's say that your campaign is about the release of an Overlord. You've got it planned out, and that's the Epic arc you want to have happen. PCs will grow in power, encounter the LoD a few times along the way, and eventually the Overlord gets released and they fight it. This is what you WANT to happen, so you don't want the PCs to be able to spoil events while still in heroic tier. But you also don't want them to lose fights whenever they run into the LoD. Which leaves a range of options. Losing may in fact part of the LoD's plans. It's part of the Prophecy. The Sword NEEDS to be drawn from the Stone before Rak Tulkhesh can rise again. The LoD only opposes the PC to set him on the right path. The key point here is "Whatever the heroes do, they do it wrong". This should never be the case. In this scenario, the LoD might be, say, about to sacrifice a village full of peasants. Fighting him and saving those peasants is exactly the right thing to do. Taking that magic artifact sword from him is simply common sense. It turns out that getting that artifact sword into your hands was his goal. But you did the right thing. You saved innocents from peril. That sword will let you defeat the daelkyr who would destroy the world himself if you didn't stop him. The fact that there are unforseen long-term consequences is something you'll deal with when the time comes, and hopefully you will triumph there too. You never did anything WRONG; it just turns out that your victory was part of their plans. Alternately, the LoD can just plain lose, but they have back-up plans. You've defeated them here, so they need to do something else over to attain the objective, and they've already figured out what that is. You may get to face them again when they do... or you may simply read about how the Royal Graveyard of Wroat was plundered in the latest issue of the Korranberg Chronicle, and later realize that this happened because you stopped the LoD from plundering the Thronehold Crypt. This is a way to look at the defeat of Bel Shalor by Tira Miron. It could be exactly what it seems; Bel Shalor was released and Tira & the Flame smacked him down. Or it could be that this apparent defeat was part of the plan all along; that the creation of the Church of the Silver Flame - with Bel Shalor able to whisper to its members - was part of a much longer-term scheme. That's the "Defeat was the plan" version; the "backup plan" version is that Bel Shalor never expected to be defeated, but had the lingering-in-the-Flame scheme as a safety net just in case. In either case, Tira Miron did nothing wrong. She saved Thrane, if not Khorvaire itself. She laid the foundation for an organization that has done tremendous good over the centuries. Perhaps the LoD had prepared for their defeat; perhaps it was even part of their plans. But leaving BS to roam free would have been far, far worse. The main thing to me is that Eberron has a lot of evil masterminds, and I like plots with them to have a different flavor; dealing with the Aurum, the Dreaming Dark, and the Lords of Dust should all be very different. The Aurum, while powerful, are the simplest of these. They are mortals, just like you. They may be as brilliant as any mortal can be, but they can only plot so far ahead. They can't plan for every contingency, and things may simply go wrong. Whereas in my game, the Lords of Dust are the ultimate schemers. They've been planning things not just before you were born, but before your race even existed. They understand the nature of reality on a level you do not. They have entire families they've bred or villages they've established solely for the purpose of this one scenario - they've been waiting a thousand years for this particular piece of the puzzle to finally come together. The LoD on the scene is not only ready to be defeated, he's ready to die - because he knows he will return. To me, this also comes to Indiana Jones and Belloq. The PCs are the heroes. But it's OK for heroes to lose occasionally - as long as this leads them to greater victory in the end. Perhaps the LoD do trick the PCs or cheat them. Perhaps they only realize later that their patron was a rakshasa. The key is that in the end their ingenuity will allow them to foil the schemes of the immortals... for another thousand years, at least. |
| #41HellcowJul 16, 2010 13:09:55 | It is one of the things that really irritated me by the end of the Dark Knight. Great movie, but how much planning can go off exactly as planned? How smart can a person be? How many coincidences take place? ;) Well, bear in mind that when you're dealing with LoD, you're dealing with immortal shapeshifting mindreading wizards with a sneak peek at the future. When dealing with them, few things should BE coincidence. If you get into a airship chase with an LoD, it MAY be that they already know they're going to lose. But it may also be that for the last 200 years they've had a family of pawns in place in the local watch because they knew that there was a chance that they'd end up in jail, and that when it appears the watch officer does something stupid that results in the guy escaping, it's actually intentional on his part because he's been preparing for the Joker to be tossed in his prison since the day he was born, and in fact someone stopped by earlier in the week to remind him the time was coming. I'm just saying that for the Aurum it would be an amazing coincidence; for the LoD, it may all be part of a plan, because they've had the time, power, and resources to plan on that level. But again... that's all if you WANT that. They are the force in the world that logically CAN have that power. But if you don't like it? Play up the arrogance. Play down the influence. They can be just as flawed as any human. |