I'm familiar with the shoe-worshipping and the Kaius's Invisible Dog Cult ideas, so I know you can, provided you are a true believer, be a CLERIC of any aligment, no matter who you worship. I know you can be a Whispering Flame cultist and still have clerical powers, even though you believe the Flame is something widely different from what anyone else believes.
My question is, can PALADINS do the same? It has been stressed many times that paladin are supposed to be pure and incorruptible and all that, so they're not clerics and can't change alignment and keep their powers, and that's where my doubt comes from. I personally believe one can be perfectly LG (or CG, for Pallys of Freedom), kind and compassionate and fair, and still be a follower of, say, the Fury, PROVIDED the way she views the Fury is different from the mainstream way ("The Fury is passion released; as such, she is the goddess of freedom and truth, for she hides neither what she feels nor what she thinks. She hates authority").
(In fact, I've made this exact character for a PbP game I've played once)
What do you all think? Can you think of paladins of other "evil deities", and their outlooks? Am I being absurd? I'm all eyes.
First, Eberron regards paladins as being called to service. One does not go to paladin school because that's what your father did. One goes and does something else, and suddenly, one evening on the road to Korth, one experiences a life-changing revelation, or wakes up suddenly, sweaty and shivering at a flop-house in Sharn, realizes that life up to this point has been a waste, and sells everything to buy a horse and ride into the west as a new paladin in the service of Kalok Shash, for example. This has the effect of the established religions eyeing paladins with some suspicion, because paladins are devoted to the god, rather than the religion.
Second, paladins—pre 4th Edition, obviously—are constrained to Lawful Good alignment and from consorting with evil. This really causes friction with the religious establishment in the event that the paladin's divine calling comes from the Blood of Vol, or the Devourer, or even Kol Korran, for that matter, since the established priesthood is unlikely to be of good alignment, or, more accurately, behave in a morally good manner.
One can easily rationalize so-called evil gods calling paladins to service; I've written a rationalization of a Paladin of the Dragon Below on these very boards, and I have to admit that a Paladin of the Shadow has some marvelous story possibilities, as does a Paladin of the Fury.
Another possibility—which I have not seen addressed elsewhere—is of a paladin called to the service of more than one god or goddess, as in the case of a Paladin of the War Triad (Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery) of Karrnath, known from official sources such as Faiths of Eberron, or a Paladin of the Beer Triad [1], worshiped faithfully among the Mror, or, still lesser known, the Grief Pentad [2]
Remember: this is your Eberron. What you want to work in your game is what works in your game. The best we can do here is provide suggestions, and all we ask in return is that you let us know how things turned out.
—Siran Dunmorgan
[1] The goddesses of the Beer Triad—Arawai, Olladra, and the Fury—represent the growing of grain and herbs, the sharing of good drink with friends, and the potent emotions of drunkenness. A Paladin of the Beer Triad is called to defend the growers of grain, against blight and destruction, the camaraderie of friends and neighbors in their community against provocateurs, gossips and petty tyranny, and drunks and fools against those who would take advantage of them—and to defend the innocent against those whom strong drink has overtaken.
[2] Five of the Dark Six can be seen as embodying the principles of the Five Stages of Grief proposed by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross:
- The Shadow - Denial
- The Fury - Anger
- The Mockery - Bargaining
- The Devourer - Depression
- The Keeper - Acceptance
Some say that The Traveler represents the entire rest of life.
A Paladin of the Grief Pentad wanders the world, consoling those in need, guiding the dying and those who love them through the emotions wrought by the paladin's dark patrons, his sword opposing those who would take advantage of the grieving, or the desperate, or who, like the Blood of Vol, would undermine the dignity of death itself.
He does not hold out the hope of a better death, or of an afterlife: his cares are for the living. For him, the Dark Six are the gods of trial, testing mortals for the manner in which they accept the fate ordained for them since the beginning. He defends the weak and helpless—as do all paladins—against unnatural or untimely death. Such paladins are philosophically allies to the Gatekeepers and the Wardens of the Wood, and a few druids of these traditions have found themselves called by the Five.
I also speak different languages, and when you read something from one and you are incorrect in a saying, then it ruins the meaning, but gives you a totally different meaning. Also, some deities would grant you power, so that way you can try to convince them that they are good, and should be venerated and that since the deity is only in for his gain (power), the deity would try its best to keep you, and by show of power, have the other side start believing him. More or less an evil crusade. When you think of the picture, look at The complete view instead of the narrow.
Another good example, is that the paladins of Vol, believe that the treatment of Vol was horrible, and that, if someone would of protected her, then she wouldn't of turned to evil. "I have saved you, because Vol gave me the power to do so."
First, Eberron regards paladins as being called to service. One does not go to paladin school because that's what your father did. One goes and does something else, and suddenly, one evening on the road to Korth, one experiences a life-changing revelation, or wakes up suddenly, sweaty and shivering at a flop-house in Sharn, realizes that life up to this point has been a waste, and sells everything to buy a horse and ride into the west as a new paladin in the service of Kalok Shash, for example. This has the effect of the established religions eyeing paladins with some suspicion, because paladins are devoted to the god, rather than the religion.
True. I personally also allow another kind of paladin other than the called ones: the "born" ones, people who are already born with the virtues one expects in paladins and manifests the powers as they grow older(many don't even know they are paladins). They behave as a paladin would naturally, simply because they ARE that way.
Second, paladins—pre 4th Edition, obviously—are constrained to Lawful Good alignment and from consorting with evil. This really causes friction with the religious establishment in the event that the paladin's divine calling comes from the Blood of Vol, or the Devourer, or even Kol Korran, for that matter, since the established priesthood is unlikely to be of good alignment, or, more accurately, behave in a morally good manner.
True again, which only makes things more interesting. I don't think it would cause friction with most of the Blood of Vol's people, though... as Minoritarian, I don't really think its listing at the ECS as evil makes sense, since most of its followers don't see it as evil. It would certainly be a problem with the higher ups, though.
The ideas of the Grief Pentad and the Beer Triad are brilliant; I will certainly steal them both for my campaigns^^ Did you create them, or are them somewhere around here?
[2] Five of the Dark Six can be seen as embodying the principles of the Five Stages of Grief proposed by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross:
- The Shadow - Denial
- The Fury - Anger
- The Mockery - Bargaining
- The Devourer - Depression
- The Keeper - Acceptance
Some say that The Traveler represents the entire rest of life.
Dude, you think way too much! ;) (Actually, I think that's pretty good stuff.)
I don't really think its listing at the ECS as evil makes sense, since most of its followers don't see it as evil.
But remember that in Eberron, the alignment of the followers doesn't have to match the alignment of the power source. The alignment of the power source isn't based on the alignment or behavior of the followers; it simply is what it is. Note that most followers of the Path of Light are lawful good, but the power source of the Path of Light is neutral (it's not il-Yannah, because the il-Yannah doesn't exist yet; the followers of the Path of Light believe that it's coming).
So I see the Blood of Vol as being just like the Path of Light in that regard - a religion in which the alignment of the majority of the followers doesn't match that of the divine energy source that clerics draw on (which is, after all, irrelevant and invisible to the typical follower).
Essentially, the alignment of the power source determines the positive/negative energy channeling ability of the cleric - the fact that clerics of the Blood of Vol rebuke undead instead of turning them, which is obviously appropriate. One of the things I like about 4E is the removal of detect evil, since that's always been awkward with Eberron's shades-of-gray flavor; with that removed, the paladin of the Blood of Vol becomes a much easier character to deal with, and I in fact have one as a PC in one of the campaigns I'm DMing.
The goddesses of the Beer Triad—Arawai, Olladra, and the Fury—represent the growing of grain and herbs, the sharing of good drink with friends, and the potent emotions of drunkenness.
That's just entertaining. I'll certainly have to wrok that into my next Mror adventure. ;)
The ideas of the Grief Pentad and the Beer Triad are brilliant; I will certainly steal them both for my campaigns^^ Did you create them, or are them somewhere around here?
That's just entertaining. I'll certainly have to wrok that into my next Mror adventure. ;)
Much thanks to both of you!
And yes, TheDerangedOne, both ideas are original with me, though I will admit some inspiration from Hellcow's exposition of the War Triad.
Everyone should feel free to incorporate them in your campaigns, stories and discussions—or whatever else—at will.
—Siran Dunmorgan
P.S. The point, of course, is that not only is it possible to have a paladin devoted to the Dark Six—even with the alignment restrictions on pre-4th edition paladins—it's an opportunity for the player and Dungeon Master to exercise their creativity.
That said, there will always be a place for the shining knight or crusader in the service of Dol Arrah or of the Silver Flame—depending on the story you and your group are trying to experience, sometimes the old ways are best.
P.P.S.
One of the things I like about 4E is the removal of detect evil, since that's always been awkward with Eberron's shades-of-gray flavor; with that removed, the paladin of the Blood of Vol becomes a much easier character to deal with, and I in fact have one as a PC in one of the campaigns I'm DMing.
Hellcow, in 4th Edition, do you use the option of changing out the damage type for paladins, e.g. having a paladin of the Blood of Vol deal necrotic damage rather than radiant?
And if so, do you see it as reasonable to use other damage types for other deities?
As I was looking at the comment I'd made above, concerning a paladin of the Fury, it occurred to me that changing the damage type dealt by such paladins from radiant to—for example—psychic damage might not be inappropriate. Similarly, a paladin of the Devourer might deal thunder damage, or even thunder and lightning, re-flavoring the paladin to fit the motif of the deity.
—SD
Hellcow, in 4th Edition, do you use the option of changing out the damage type for paladins, e.g. having a paladin of the Blood of Vol deal necrotic damage rather than radiant?
And if so, do you see it as reasonable to use other damage types for other deities?
As I was looking at the comment I'd made above, concerning a paladin of the Fury, it occurred to me that changing the damage type dealt by such paladins from radiant to—for example—psychic damage might not be inappropriate. Similarly, a paladin of the Devourer might deal thunder damage, or even thunder and lightning, re-flavoring the paladin to fit the motif of the deity.
—SD
How has that been handled with Forgotten Realms, I wonder. They'd have the same issues with their evil deities.
Hellcow, in 4th Edition, do you use the option of changing out the damage type for paladins, e.g. having a paladin of the Blood of Vol deal necrotic damage rather than radiant?
I think that changing damage type to reflect a change in flavor is entirely appropriate. The example I've used in my campaign is the Lyrandar infernal pact warlock who has formed her pact with the Storm itself, for which we have swapped all fire powers to lightning. Such a change should always be in the hands of the DM; the player isn't entitled to demand such a change, but I think the Dm is on solid ground to make it.
With that said, after thinking about it, I left the paladin of the Blood of Vol in my campaign as inflicting radiant damage as opposed to necrotic. My thinking was that radiant damage is, in essence, raw divine energy - not necessarily GOOD, simply pure divine power. The paladin of the Silver Flame draws that radiant energy from the Silver Flame. The paladin of the Blood of Vol is using the same form of energy, but he draws it from the Divinty Within - harnessing the spark of life energy within himself to smite his foes. When I describe it, I speak of blood flowing from the palm of his hand against his weapon, and the blade becoming suffused with a baleful, incarnadine light. But while his valiant strike might give off a fearsome crimson light instead of a brilliant silver glow, I still see it as, ultimately, radiant damage - and after all, in principle, the Blood of Vol is supposed to believe that they are fighting death.
So certainly, I think you could make changes. The idea of a paladin/cleric of the Fury substituting psychic for radiant is an interesting one. But I decided not to do it for the Blood of Vol.
With that said, after thinking about it, I left the paladin of the Blood of Vol in my campaign as inflicting radiant damage as opposed to necrotic. My thinking was that radiant damage is, in essence, raw divine energy - not necessarily GOOD, simply pure divine power.
I had the exact same inclination with radiant. I just took it as sort of a catch-all divine energy, and that necrotic is fairly specifically for necromancers (whether divine or arcane) or powers of a necromantic nature.