Paragon play and the gods of Eberron - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Centauri Apr 27, 2010 11:58:57	I'm running nigh-Paragon characters in an Eberron campaign of my own devising. Because of their level, I'm taking the advice of the DMG and beginning to involve them in conflicts that span more than one plane of existance. One of these planes is, in the core rules, the home of a certain goddess. Activities involving the PCs have attracted her attention, but I'm a bit puzzled as to the "Eberron" way of dealing with what I want to do, and with travel to divine domains in general. This is because, as I understand it, the gods of Eberron are not proved to exist as beings in their own right. So, what does this mean for travel to the actual homes of the gods. For dealing with beings who can reasonably claim to have stood in their presence? For players who might themselves have to deal with a god? I guess I should provide a few more details: Show I'm trying to introduce the Raven Queen as a plot element in an adventure that has to do with an airship that utilizes a shadow powersource and repeatedly incurs on Dollurh. She has only recently arisen (or re-arisen), possibly as a result of the massive loss of life from the Day of Mourning. The PCs have encountered some ghosts from the Shadowfell who refer to "the Queen" and "the Pale Lady". This doesn't mean they've met her, it could just mean that they believe in her. The PCs have sensed a powerful presence watching them through a shadow crossing, but this could simply be an agent of the Queen and not the Queen herself. Furthermore, even the powerful agents of the Queen might not actually meet her as such.
#2 Sarlax Apr 27, 2010 13:43:03	Eberron's gods don't seem to manifest materially the way the gods of other words do, with the possible exception of the Traveler. This doesn't mean they don't exist, though. People who worship the Sovereigns and the Six don't see their gods as exclusively of their domains, they are their domains. The Devourer isn't simply the god of storms - he is storms. To a believer, one only needs to look out in the world to see the gods everywhere within it. Yet you probably won't see the Devourer wielding a +8 Thundering Spiker Chain any time soon. Out in the planes, the situation is quite the same. This doesn't mean you can't make the gods a central part of the campaign. The angels in 4E Eberron are devoted to different gods and can be strong options for PCs to interact with emissaries of gods. Still, no angel can, canonically, honestly claim to have stood in the presence of a god. Rather, an angel simply believes so completely in the existence of the god they worship that they serve that being eternally. I actually think that this helps your campaign idea. Rather than building up to a meeting with a goddess, it builds up to an encounter with a being who believes she perfectly serves the divine. Faith and zealotry are important parts of Eberron, and faith depends on mystery - if someone can simply point to the 20 foot tall glowing woman with a longsword and say, "Oh, there's Dol Arrah," there's no faith involved; you're just looking at a god, which is nothing more than a powerful outsider. However, if the gods are unknowable in that fashion, you can always have faith in the divine and fear of the unknown in religious matters. I'd recommend taking advantage of Eberron's mystery so that as the PCs start hearing more about this Lady, they won't know if they're hearing about a god, an impostor, or something else. As for the Raven Queen herself, she doesn't have an automatic place in Eberron, so you're free to do what you like. One possibility is that she is a powerful angel of The Keeper. In the wake of the Mourning, she has become more active in Dolurrh with an eye on Eberron. Perhaps the Mourning damaged the souls of the dead, which stopped the Keeper from collecting those souls he most prized. The Lady has decided to personally harvest the world's most powerful and valuable souls herself, so that the Keeper might have them in the event of another Mourning. Or she might be seeking to trigger another Mourning, believing that the Keeper's hunger for souls has grown since the first occurred. The Raven Queen may instead be the ghost of Dannel, the last Queen of Cyre. Her goals may be more crude than that of an angel - with the power of Dolurrh at her command and an army of millions of angry, ghostly Cyrans, she seeks to resume the war for control of Khorvaire. She seeks to open a gate to the Mournland so that her armies can march across the continent. Dannel wishes to rule the living in Eberron, and rule their dead souls in Dolurrh. The Raven Queen may even be both - an angel of the Keeper fused with Dannel. In 3.5, Eberron featured the channeling rules, which is a kind of benign possession of which certain angels are capable: the result was a mortal possessing the power and wisdom of a celestial. In the case of the Raven Queen, an angel of the Keeper might have sensed the impending death that coming to Cyre, and offered Dannel continued existence in exchange for becoming her vessel in the world. In this case, the Queen could be pursuing any number of goals. Besides these ideas, you have the standard fare of options: the Queen is really a rakshasa pretending to be a god, the Dreaming Dark are manipulating dreams of mortals to make them think a death goddess has arise (to drive them into Sarlona's arms for protection), or any other conventional option.
#3 Hellcow Apr 27, 2010 14:23:07	Sarlax has already said everything I'd say on the subject, so all I can add is "Right on." Show One odd thought: the ECG notes that if Erandis Vol could attain her true potential - what her parents hoped for - she might become Eberron's answer to the Raven Queen. Perhaps your "Pale Lady" is actually half of Erandis. When she became a lich, her soul was split, with a piece of her trapped in her undead form and a piece of her in the Shadowfell. The Erandis-in-the-Shadowfell is her nobler instincts and is horrified at what her other half is doing to try to acheive their destiny... and if Lich-Erandis succeeds, it's that dark side that will become the dominant force. Essentially, Erandis is both Orcus and the Raven Queen - different aspects of her personality, with the question being which will triumph. To stop Lich-Erandis, the PCs must actually help Erandis achieve her destiny and become the Queen of Death - they just need to help her positive side.
#4 Centauri Apr 27, 2010 14:57:19	Thanks to you both. Show One odd thought: the ECG notes that if Erandis Vol could attain her true potential - what her parents hoped for - she might become Eberron's answer to the Raven Queen. Perhaps your "Pale Lady" is actually half of Erandis. When she became a lich, her soul was split, with a piece of her trapped in her undead form and a piece of her in the Shadowfell. The Erandis-in-the-Shadowfell is her nobler instincts and is horrified at what her other half is doing to try to acheive their destiny... and if Lich-Erandis succeeds, it's that dark side that will become the dominant force. Essentially, Erandis is both Orcus and the Raven Queen - different aspects of her personality, with the question being which will triumph. To stop Lich-Erandis, the PCs must actually help Erandis achieve her destiny and become the Queen of Death - they just need to help her positive side.
#5 JohnLynch Apr 27, 2010 17:51:49	Show One odd thought: the ECG notes that if Erandis Vol could attain her true potential - what her parents hoped for - she might become Eberron's answer to the Raven Queen. Perhaps your "Pale Lady" is actually half of Erandis. When she became a lich, her soul was split, with a piece of her trapped in her undead form and a piece of her in the Shadowfell. The Erandis-in-the-Shadowfell is her nobler instincts and is horrified at what her other half is doing to try to acheive their destiny... and if Lich-Erandis succeeds, it's that dark side that will become the dominant force. Essentially, Erandis is both Orcus and the Raven Queen - different aspects of her personality, with the question being which will triumph. To stop Lich-Erandis, the PCs must actually help Erandis achieve her destiny and become the Queen of Death - they just need to help her positive side.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Centauri

Apr 27, 2010 11:58:57

I'm running nigh-Paragon characters in an Eberron campaign of my own devising. Because of their level, I'm taking the advice of the DMG and beginning to involve them in conflicts that span more than one plane of existance. One of these planes is, in the core rules, the home of a certain goddess. Activities involving the PCs have attracted her attention, but I'm a bit puzzled as to the "Eberron" way of dealing with what I want to do, and with travel to divine domains in general. This is because, as I understand it, the gods of Eberron are not proved to exist as beings in their own right.

So, what does this mean for travel to the actual homes of the gods. For dealing with beings who can reasonably claim to have stood in their presence? For players who might themselves have to deal with a god?

I guess I should provide a few more details:

Show

I'm trying to introduce the Raven Queen as a plot element in an adventure that has to do with an airship that utilizes a shadow powersource and repeatedly incurs on Dollurh. She has only recently arisen (or re-arisen), possibly as a result of the massive loss of life from the Day of Mourning.

The PCs have encountered some ghosts from the Shadowfell who refer to "the Queen" and "the Pale Lady". This doesn't mean they've met her, it could just mean that they believe in her. The PCs have sensed a powerful presence watching them through a shadow crossing, but this could simply be an agent of the Queen and not the Queen herself. Furthermore, even the powerful agents of the Queen might not actually meet her as such.

Sarlax

Apr 27, 2010 13:43:03

Eberron's gods don't seem to manifest materially the way the gods of other words do, with the possible exception of the Traveler. This doesn't mean they don't exist, though. People who worship the Sovereigns and the Six don't see their gods as exclusively of their domains, they are their domains. The Devourer isn't simply the god of storms - he is storms. To a believer, one only needs to look out in the world to see the gods everywhere within it. Yet you probably won't see the Devourer wielding a +8 Thundering Spiker Chain any time soon.

Out in the planes, the situation is quite the same. This doesn't mean you can't make the gods a central part of the campaign. The angels in 4E Eberron are devoted to different gods and can be strong options for PCs to interact with emissaries of gods. Still, no angel can, canonically, honestly claim to have stood in the presence of a god. Rather, an angel simply believes so completely in the existence of the god they worship that they serve that being eternally.

I actually think that this helps your campaign idea. Rather than building up to a meeting with a goddess, it builds up to an encounter with a being who believes she perfectly serves the divine. Faith and zealotry are important parts of Eberron, and faith depends on mystery - if someone can simply point to the 20 foot tall glowing woman with a longsword and say, "Oh, there's Dol Arrah," there's no faith involved; you're just looking at a god, which is nothing more than a powerful outsider. However, if the gods are unknowable in that fashion, you can always have faith in the divine and fear of the unknown in religious matters. I'd recommend taking advantage of Eberron's mystery so that as the PCs start hearing more about this Lady, they won't know if they're hearing about a god, an impostor, or something else.

As for the Raven Queen herself, she doesn't have an automatic place in Eberron, so you're free to do what you like. One possibility is that she is a powerful angel of The Keeper. In the wake of the Mourning, she has become more active in Dolurrh with an eye on Eberron. Perhaps the Mourning damaged the souls of the dead, which stopped the Keeper from collecting those souls he most prized. The Lady has decided to personally harvest the world's most powerful and valuable souls herself, so that the Keeper might have them in the event of another Mourning. Or she might be seeking to trigger another Mourning, believing that the Keeper's hunger for souls has grown since the first occurred.

The Raven Queen may instead be the ghost of Dannel, the last Queen of Cyre. Her goals may be more crude than that of an angel - with the power of Dolurrh at her command and an army of millions of angry, ghostly Cyrans, she seeks to resume the war for control of Khorvaire. She seeks to open a gate to the Mournland so that her armies can march across the continent. Dannel wishes to rule the living in Eberron, and rule their dead souls in Dolurrh.

The Raven Queen may even be both - an angel of the Keeper fused with Dannel. In 3.5, Eberron featured the channeling rules, which is a kind of benign possession of which certain angels are capable: the result was a mortal possessing the power and wisdom of a celestial. In the case of the Raven Queen, an angel of the Keeper might have sensed the impending death that coming to Cyre, and offered Dannel continued existence in exchange for becoming her vessel in the world. In this case, the Queen could be pursuing any number of goals.

Besides these ideas, you have the standard fare of options: the Queen is really a rakshasa pretending to be a god, the Dreaming Dark are manipulating dreams of mortals to make them think a death goddess has arise (to drive them into Sarlona's arms for protection), or any other conventional option.

Hellcow

Apr 27, 2010 14:23:07

Sarlax has already said everything I'd say on the subject, so all I can add is "Right on."

Show

One odd thought: the ECG notes that if Erandis Vol could attain her true potential - what her parents hoped for - she might become Eberron's answer to the Raven Queen. Perhaps your "Pale Lady" is actually half of Erandis. When she became a lich, her soul was split, with a piece of her trapped in her undead form and a piece of her in the Shadowfell. The Erandis-in-the-Shadowfell is her nobler instincts and is horrified at what her other half is doing to try to acheive their destiny... and if Lich-Erandis succeeds, it's that dark side that will become the dominant force.

Essentially, Erandis is both Orcus and the Raven Queen - different aspects of her personality, with the question being which will triumph. To stop Lich-Erandis, the PCs must actually help Erandis achieve her destiny and become the Queen of Death - they just need to help her positive side.

Centauri

Apr 27, 2010 14:57:19

Thanks to you both.

Show
One odd thought: the ECG notes that if Erandis Vol could attain her true potential - what her parents hoped for - she might become Eberron's answer to the Raven Queen. Perhaps your "Pale Lady" is actually half of Erandis. When she became a lich, her soul was split, with a piece of her trapped in her undead form and a piece of her in the Shadowfell. The Erandis-in-the-Shadowfell is her nobler instincts and is horrified at what her other half is doing to try to acheive their destiny... and if Lich-Erandis succeeds, it's that dark side that will become the dominant force.

Essentially, Erandis is both Orcus and the Raven Queen - different aspects of her personality, with the question being which will triumph. To stop Lich-Erandis, the PCs must actually help Erandis achieve her destiny and become the Queen of Death - they just need to help her positive side.

JohnLynch

Apr 27, 2010 17:51:49

Show
One odd thought: the ECG notes that if Erandis Vol could attain her true potential - what her parents hoped for - she might become Eberron's answer to the Raven Queen. Perhaps your "Pale Lady" is actually half of Erandis. When she became a lich, her soul was split, with a piece of her trapped in her undead form and a piece of her in the Shadowfell. The Erandis-in-the-Shadowfell is her nobler instincts and is horrified at what her other half is doing to try to acheive their destiny... and if Lich-Erandis succeeds, it's that dark side that will become the dominant force.

Essentially, Erandis is both Orcus and the Raven Queen - different aspects of her personality, with the question being which will triumph. To stop Lich-Erandis, the PCs must actually help Erandis achieve her destiny and become the Queen of Death - they just need to help her positive side.