Pattent wars: - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Pattent wars:

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
skrapsan
Apr 28, 2013 1:23:32 Do you think they have pattent wars in Khorvaire? or is there a more of a if we know how we build it. I know that Zilargo is furiously guarding their knowledge of how to bind elementals. But lets say that magic is a bit like tecnology and that there is different ways to gain the same end result. Could there be pattent wars? And how warlike would they be?

And yes I know all I say goes will go. But this is a discussion forum after all.
#2
Syltorian
Apr 28, 2013 6:45:27 I don't think it has ever been addressed in the published sources, but I'd say yes.

If patents are officially deposited, it will probably fall to Sivis to provide the necessary documents and records - which means the crafty Gnomes get yet more influence.

On a side note: I am not sure whether the Dragonmarked Houses, or Zilargo Elemental Binding, are actually patents. Patents involves the disclosure of the invention. To some degree, many of the inventions of the Dragonmarked Houses e.a. might be considered trade secrets, to be used only within the guilds. Of course, other inventions have benefitted from cooperation within the Twelve (Kundarak Vaults, for instance). Non-guild/house inventors would probably benefit from depositing patents or selling their inventions to a nation or a house. It could even be part of the rules for guild membership to share innovations with the guild, possibly for a reward, but with the act of keeping secrets from the guild itself being considered grounds for exclusion.

If the Dragonmarked Houses enforce patents - at least those which fall within the purview of their Guilds - it also means that legislation is not limited to the Code of Galifar, in vigour only in three of the Five Nations (Karrnath has the Code of Kaius; Cyre has ceased to exist), and could be enforced even in Stormreach or the Shadow Marches. Thus, anyone recreating Speaking Stones without the need for a dragonmark would get into legal problems (or beyond, if Phiarlan or Thuranni are asked to see to the problem), but so will anyone who uses a specific Cannith pattern for folding steel or a Ghallanda recipe unless they belong to the respective guild.

As for the violence of such wars: I would assume that this takes a legal dimension first. Houses and Guilds are sufficiently powerful to get rival shops closed, drag offenders in front of the civil courts (with Sivis laywers prosecuting), and excluding them from guild services (such as Orien and Lyrandar transportation, Kundarak banking services, etc). If a local business breaks patent law, they will probably find themselves spending most of their time and money in the courts.

If that is not enough, you could get into the gray areas. Phiarlan propaganda could be turned against the offender, depending on how far libel laws go. Denial of service might be extended to anyone associated with the offender, and to areas where the Houses/Guilds are actually working for a state rather than on their own account (say, notarizing Identification Papers).

Finally, you could get into the illegal sphere of Phiarlan blackmaling or Thuranni assassins and sabotage - by one House or the combined power of the Twelve. Lyrandar controls the weather; best not break their patents for ship building. Breed magebred animals without permission from Vadalis? The House of Handling controls animals. Ever seen Hitchcock's The Birds?

Now, assuming the patent wars are between two Houses - Lyrandar copying travel-magic from Orien, for example - I would assume the Twelve could function as arbiters, while individual agents of the Houses would seek to employ covert tactics to undermine the rivals. I am not sure how open these conflicts would be: a weakening of a dragonmarked house does not benefit any of the; if Orien manages to harm Lyrandar, people outside will realise that the Houses are not all-powerful. Besides, the dragons might take it badly if someone interfers with their precious prophecy written in part on the skin of the dragonmarked. Orien probably does not want to show how unreliable the elemental of an airship is, in case someone wonders about the Lightning Rail. But a Court of the Twelve could be involved, and an 'accident' might occur at a research facility. The same could work between factions of split houses (Phiarlan/Thuranni; Cannith East/West/South, although in the latter case, the Twelve is probably rather undecided as to which side to support).

Things could get more tricky if a nation decides to steal a dragonmarked trade secret. It probably depends on what the respective power of the Houses and the nations are. If Aundair manages to get an airship going without Lyrandar help, does Lyrandar have the power to sabotage the nation without other nations reacting? Can Aundair survive being excluded from Lyrandar shipping and weather-control, when all its enemies receive these services?

Next to the Houses, I could also see the Arcane Congress enforcing patents on magic items and spells, although they will probably not be respected outside of Aundair any longer.

Note that in Eberron, such patents could also involve spells, not only items. I believe it was noted somewhere that casting Magnificient Mansion spells in the cities is forbidden unless you work for Ghallanda; so even if you know how to do it, the law supports the patent/license-holders and enforces monopolies. Banning too many spells will, however, not be much fun for the players, so care should be taken. The Korth Edicts have limited the power of the Dragonmarked Houses, but I think they are still to powerful for the courts of Khorvaire to have many anti-trust/competition laws.

#3
CorrinAvatan
Apr 30, 2013 21:24:36 I wouldn't say that Khorvaire has patents in the sense that we know them, but they DO have guilds (and the Dragonmarked Houses are really just uber-guilds).

I think it's mentioned in either the 3.5 Campaign setting that House Cannith practically standardized the cost and production quality of a longword and other stuff; while it was a fluff rationalization for why a longsword always costs the same no matter where you go, there was also mention that people expected particular quality, and that most merchants had to play nice with the guilds involved.

Really, I wouldn't think that there are patents, but if you suddenly "invent" an item or spell that's going to break into the business interests of another group (for example, you create a mirror that can be used for two-way communication as well as teleportation, Sivis and Orien would probably learn about it right quick and ask for a cut... or cut you out of your own business).

#4
Storminator
Jun 05, 2013 13:18:41 I've thought that there could be internal patents inside House Cannith. Every Cannith inventor has to submit his designs to the House, then he has exclusive use for a short time, or maybe the House decides who can use the design, but the inventor gets a cut.

Then, with the split in House Cannith, you can have different factions poaching each other's designs, and essentially doing the patent war inside the House.

This does make the resulting adventure ideas pretty insular - someone has to be in the House - but I think there's some options for play there.

PS
#5
Syltorian
Jun 08, 2013 6:11:13 Interesting idea, Storminator. The same could be extended to other houses.

A member of the Entertainers and Artisans Guild gets royalties, but needs to give publication and other rights to the Guild, a Windwright Guild captain discovering a new route must share, but can get a monopoly for the moment, and so forth.

I don't think it would make adventure ideas insular. Interfaction-rivalry within Cannith can send the PCs across the entire continent, doing industrial espionage or stealing the idea before someone can actually get the idea patented, and bringing it back to the own faction, so they can go in first. Of course, the entire status of Cannith would have to be clarified... officially, all three factions are still Cannith: on the one hand, keeping secrets from the other factions means splitting the House even further and shattering whatever illusion of unity remains; on the other, sharing is bad for power play. There's a lot of potential for an intrigue-based campaign here, especially if other parties can exploit these internal conflicts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 skrapsan Apr 28, 2013 1:23:32	Do you think they have pattent wars in Khorvaire? or is there a more of a if we know how we build it. I know that Zilargo is furiously guarding their knowledge of how to bind elementals. But lets say that magic is a bit like tecnology and that there is different ways to gain the same end result. Could there be pattent wars? And how warlike would they be? And yes I know all I say goes will go. But this is a discussion forum after all.
#2 Syltorian Apr 28, 2013 6:45:27	I don't think it has ever been addressed in the published sources, but I'd say yes. If patents are officially deposited, it will probably fall to Sivis to provide the necessary documents and records - which means the crafty Gnomes get yet more influence. On a side note: I am not sure whether the Dragonmarked Houses, or Zilargo Elemental Binding, are actually patents. Patents involves the disclosure of the invention. To some degree, many of the inventions of the Dragonmarked Houses e.a. might be considered trade secrets, to be used only within the guilds. Of course, other inventions have benefitted from cooperation within the Twelve (Kundarak Vaults, for instance). Non-guild/house inventors would probably benefit from depositing patents or selling their inventions to a nation or a house. It could even be part of the rules for guild membership to share innovations with the guild, possibly for a reward, but with the act of keeping secrets from the guild itself being considered grounds for exclusion. If the Dragonmarked Houses enforce patents - at least those which fall within the purview of their Guilds - it also means that legislation is not limited to the Code of Galifar, in vigour only in three of the Five Nations (Karrnath has the Code of Kaius; Cyre has ceased to exist), and could be enforced even in Stormreach or the Shadow Marches. Thus, anyone recreating Speaking Stones without the need for a dragonmark would get into legal problems (or beyond, if Phiarlan or Thuranni are asked to see to the problem), but so will anyone who uses a specific Cannith pattern for folding steel or a Ghallanda recipe unless they belong to the respective guild. As for the violence of such wars: I would assume that this takes a legal dimension first. Houses and Guilds are sufficiently powerful to get rival shops closed, drag offenders in front of the civil courts (with Sivis laywers prosecuting), and excluding them from guild services (such as Orien and Lyrandar transportation, Kundarak banking services, etc). If a local business breaks patent law, they will probably find themselves spending most of their time and money in the courts. If that is not enough, you could get into the gray areas. Phiarlan propaganda could be turned against the offender, depending on how far libel laws go. Denial of service might be extended to anyone associated with the offender, and to areas where the Houses/Guilds are actually working for a state rather than on their own account (say, notarizing Identification Papers). Finally, you could get into the illegal sphere of Phiarlan blackmaling or Thuranni assassins and sabotage - by one House or the combined power of the Twelve. Lyrandar controls the weather; best not break their patents for ship building. Breed magebred animals without permission from Vadalis? The House of Handling controls animals. Ever seen Hitchcock's The Birds? Now, assuming the patent wars are between two Houses - Lyrandar copying travel-magic from Orien, for example - I would assume the Twelve could function as arbiters, while individual agents of the Houses would seek to employ covert tactics to undermine the rivals. I am not sure how open these conflicts would be: a weakening of a dragonmarked house does not benefit any of the; if Orien manages to harm Lyrandar, people outside will realise that the Houses are not all-powerful. Besides, the dragons might take it badly if someone interfers with their precious prophecy written in part on the skin of the dragonmarked. Orien probably does not want to show how unreliable the elemental of an airship is, in case someone wonders about the Lightning Rail. But a Court of the Twelve could be involved, and an 'accident' might occur at a research facility. The same could work between factions of split houses (Phiarlan/Thuranni; Cannith East/West/South, although in the latter case, the Twelve is probably rather undecided as to which side to support). Things could get more tricky if a nation decides to steal a dragonmarked trade secret. It probably depends on what the respective power of the Houses and the nations are. If Aundair manages to get an airship going without Lyrandar help, does Lyrandar have the power to sabotage the nation without other nations reacting? Can Aundair survive being excluded from Lyrandar shipping and weather-control, when all its enemies receive these services? Next to the Houses, I could also see the Arcane Congress enforcing patents on magic items and spells, although they will probably not be respected outside of Aundair any longer. Note that in Eberron, such patents could also involve spells, not only items. I believe it was noted somewhere that casting Magnificient Mansion spells in the cities is forbidden unless you work for Ghallanda; so even if you know how to do it, the law supports the patent/license-holders and enforces monopolies. Banning too many spells will, however, not be much fun for the players, so care should be taken. The Korth Edicts have limited the power of the Dragonmarked Houses, but I think they are still to powerful for the courts of Khorvaire to have many anti-trust/competition laws.
#3 CorrinAvatan Apr 30, 2013 21:24:36	I wouldn't say that Khorvaire has patents in the sense that we know them, but they DO have guilds (and the Dragonmarked Houses are really just uber-guilds). I think it's mentioned in either the 3.5 Campaign setting that House Cannith practically standardized the cost and production quality of a longword and other stuff; while it was a fluff rationalization for why a longsword always costs the same no matter where you go, there was also mention that people expected particular quality, and that most merchants had to play nice with the guilds involved. Really, I wouldn't think that there are patents, but if you suddenly "invent" an item or spell that's going to break into the business interests of another group (for example, you create a mirror that can be used for two-way communication as well as teleportation, Sivis and Orien would probably learn about it right quick and ask for a cut... or cut you out of your own business).
#4 Storminator Jun 05, 2013 13:18:41	I've thought that there could be internal patents inside House Cannith. Every Cannith inventor has to submit his designs to the House, then he has exclusive use for a short time, or maybe the House decides who can use the design, but the inventor gets a cut. Then, with the split in House Cannith, you can have different factions poaching each other's designs, and essentially doing the patent war inside the House. This does make the resulting adventure ideas pretty insular - someone has to be in the House - but I think there's some options for play there. PS
#5 Syltorian Jun 08, 2013 6:11:13	Interesting idea, Storminator. The same could be extended to other houses. A member of the Entertainers and Artisans Guild gets royalties, but needs to give publication and other rights to the Guild, a Windwright Guild captain discovering a new route must share, but can get a monopoly for the moment, and so forth. I don't think it would make adventure ideas insular. Interfaction-rivalry within Cannith can send the PCs across the entire continent, doing industrial espionage or stealing the idea before someone can actually get the idea patented, and bringing it back to the own faction, so they can go in first. Of course, the entire status of Cannith would have to be clarified... officially, all three factions are still Cannith: on the one hand, keeping secrets from the other factions means splitting the House even further and shattering whatever illusion of unity remains; on the other, sharing is bad for power play. There's a lot of potential for an intrigue-based campaign here, especially if other parties can exploit these internal conflicts.