Planar Shepherd -- What SHOULD it do? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Planar Shepherd -- What SHOULD it do?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gavinfoxx
May 11, 2008 1:25:17 So it is commonly considered true that the Planar Shepherd prestige class for druids makes one of the already most powerful classes (Druid) even stronger. Now, Considering the Planes in Eberron, what do you all think the Planar Shepherd SHOULD be able to do? What abilities from each Plane, and that areas' denizens, should the Planar Shepherd get? They certainly shouldn't get Wishes or full Cleric casting, or 10 rounds per every outsider's round. Anyway, if you all want to know what they can do, read this thread:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233

So... the question remains... what SHOULD they be able to do?
#2
dread_lord
May 17, 2008 21:58:23 Truthfully, as soon as I studied this class I held it up in front of my players and said, "don't bother aiming for this one. it does not exist in my game."
#3
ravenscroft
May 18, 2008 0:45:44
"don't bother aiming for this one. it does not exist in my game."

The last refuge of the incompetent GM , Invoke Rule 0.
(not meant to imply that Dread Lord is incompetent , or insult you ,
just the first person to make this response)

By inference , you probably mean that the Planar Shepherd SHOULD be able to do nothing.

Take it on a case by case basis.

Why does the player want the class?
Are all your players suddenly wanting to be Druids?
Is there a Planar Council , with one member representing each plane?
(just an example for creating a group to police potential abuse)

At this point i dont have specific examples of what it SHOULD be able to do.
(need to read the linked thread and the RAW)
#4
the_ubbergeek
May 18, 2008 1:17:46 In layman's terms, could it be reworked to be more equilibred ('nerfed')?
#5
gavinfoxx
May 18, 2008 1:21:39
In layman's terms, could it be reworked to be more equilibred ('nerfed')?

Exactly! In a way that makes it so that it is still a viable druid prestige class (seeing as how there really AREN'T any yet...), but not insanely crazy overpowered that it is now, making an already god class even stronger...
#6
larry_the_titan
May 18, 2008 18:36:57 Personally what makes the class broken is easy to identify.

One is Free and infinite wishes. I personally think both Wish, Miracle and Reality Revision are all broken by themselves and its best to not let anyone get a hold of any of them even in there spell or power forms. If you ban them to start as powers and ban them as abilities of monsters then no one can get a hold of them as spell like abilities.

The second issue that you come across is the Time effects from planes. Simply state that players don't get them otherwise the player might get the effect of a Maximized Twinned time stop every round with out the limits of Time stop.

The Third issue that I know of is whether Players get the spells that some outsiders get. Spell like abilities are fine but actual undefined spells are not. I personally feel that unless the player entered the form and knew the spell and method that the outsider used then it might be acceptable to allow the player to take the form and prepare the spells. But as the Character still retains his own spells and doesn't know any of what the creature actually does then they shouldn't get the spells. If someone wants to argue how getting the spells is not broke then they should probably speak up.

Now there are some other issues that get out of hand about the class but a majority of the broken has been removed by my other rulings.

Some of the other issues the Magical beast Wild shape. Without changes this ability gives no advantage as you don't gain any forms better then what you already have. Since you don't get any of the templates that apply abilities and you still don't get any of the abilities of the few creatures that live on the planes that are magical beasts. This ability needs reviewed for each plane otherwise the only useful abilities won't kick in till 9 level at which point its nearly more beneficial to have remained an ordinary Druid.
#7
dread_lord
May 18, 2008 19:36:46
The last refuge of the incompetent GM , Invoke Rule 0.
(not meant to imply that Dread Lord is incompetent , or insult you ,
just the first person to make this response)

How am I not supposed to insulted by that?
#8
xahhfink6
Feb 08, 2009 19:58:45 I'm a GM and I'm pretty much up for anything in this module I'm running (it is already specifically made to handle broken characters and the like) but I would like some more help on limiting the power of this specific class.

Things I'm already doing:
Wish - Still has experience cost. There's a reason that genies don't give out free wishes. They SUCK to have to spend.

Spell like abilities- I'm considering calling b***s*** in a simple way and saying that they don't have the spells prepared? It's like the above post, but with some degree of reasonability.

Time differences - This is only supposed to work because you are physically effected by the differences inside the plane, but the planar shepard specifically says that you are immune to all physical effects of the plane.

Other than that, all I can see now is killing him, and/or banning the book, but I'd like to find a compromise I can make with my player.

Can people help me by continuting to post here, by naming any official/suggested erratas, and (if legal) giving the specific text of the 9th level class feature so I can find out what other rules lawyering can be done to oppose this?

Thank you all
#9
Captain_Kobold
Feb 09, 2009 22:08:23
The last refuge of the incompetent GM , Invoke Rule 0.

True, so true.

Most competent DM's will have used it as their first resort.
You shouldn't feel constrained that you have to include everything in every splatbook available. If you spot something that may lead to problems later, or simply doesn't fit into your campaign, then just run the game without it.

Invoking Rule 0 early on will likely save you having to enforce Rule 7 later.

By inference , you probably mean that the Planar Shepherd SHOULD be able to do nothing.

Did you really infer that from what DreadLord said Ravenscroft? That he thinks that there should be a prestige class can't do anything?
I rather think that he simply decided his game would run smoother without Planar Shepherds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gavinfoxx May 11, 2008 1:25:17	So it is commonly considered true that the Planar Shepherd prestige class for druids makes one of the already most powerful classes (Druid) even stronger. Now, Considering the Planes in Eberron, what do you all think the Planar Shepherd SHOULD be able to do? What abilities from each Plane, and that areas' denizens, should the Planar Shepherd get? They certainly shouldn't get Wishes or full Cleric casting, or 10 rounds per every outsider's round. Anyway, if you all want to know what they can do, read this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233 So... the question remains... what SHOULD they be able to do?
#2 dread_lord May 17, 2008 21:58:23	Truthfully, as soon as I studied this class I held it up in front of my players and said, "don't bother aiming for this one. it does not exist in my game."
#3 ravenscroft May 18, 2008 0:45:44	"don't bother aiming for this one. it does not exist in my game." The last refuge of the incompetent GM , Invoke Rule 0. (not meant to imply that Dread Lord is incompetent , or insult you , just the first person to make this response) By inference , you probably mean that the Planar Shepherd SHOULD be able to do nothing. Take it on a case by case basis. Why does the player want the class? Are all your players suddenly wanting to be Druids? Is there a Planar Council , with one member representing each plane? (just an example for creating a group to police potential abuse) At this point i dont have specific examples of what it SHOULD be able to do. (need to read the linked thread and the RAW)
#4 the_ubbergeek May 18, 2008 1:17:46	In layman's terms, could it be reworked to be more equilibred ('nerfed')?
#5 gavinfoxx May 18, 2008 1:21:39	In layman's terms, could it be reworked to be more equilibred ('nerfed')? Exactly! In a way that makes it so that it is still a viable druid prestige class (seeing as how there really AREN'T any yet...), but not insanely crazy overpowered that it is now, making an already god class even stronger...
#6 larry_the_titan May 18, 2008 18:36:57	Personally what makes the class broken is easy to identify. One is Free and infinite wishes. I personally think both Wish, Miracle and Reality Revision are all broken by themselves and its best to not let anyone get a hold of any of them even in there spell or power forms. If you ban them to start as powers and ban them as abilities of monsters then no one can get a hold of them as spell like abilities. The second issue that you come across is the Time effects from planes. Simply state that players don't get them otherwise the player might get the effect of a Maximized Twinned time stop every round with out the limits of Time stop. The Third issue that I know of is whether Players get the spells that some outsiders get. Spell like abilities are fine but actual undefined spells are not. I personally feel that unless the player entered the form and knew the spell and method that the outsider used then it might be acceptable to allow the player to take the form and prepare the spells. But as the Character still retains his own spells and doesn't know any of what the creature actually does then they shouldn't get the spells. If someone wants to argue how getting the spells is not broke then they should probably speak up. Now there are some other issues that get out of hand about the class but a majority of the broken has been removed by my other rulings. Some of the other issues the Magical beast Wild shape. Without changes this ability gives no advantage as you don't gain any forms better then what you already have. Since you don't get any of the templates that apply abilities and you still don't get any of the abilities of the few creatures that live on the planes that are magical beasts. This ability needs reviewed for each plane otherwise the only useful abilities won't kick in till 9 level at which point its nearly more beneficial to have remained an ordinary Druid.
#7 dread_lord May 18, 2008 19:36:46	The last refuge of the incompetent GM , Invoke Rule 0. (not meant to imply that Dread Lord is incompetent , or insult you , just the first person to make this response) How am I not supposed to insulted by that?
#8 xahhfink6 Feb 08, 2009 19:58:45	I'm a GM and I'm pretty much up for anything in this module I'm running (it is already specifically made to handle broken characters and the like) but I would like some more help on limiting the power of this specific class. Things I'm already doing: Wish - Still has experience cost. There's a reason that genies don't give out free wishes. They SUCK to have to spend. Spell like abilities- I'm considering calling b*s* in a simple way and saying that they don't have the spells prepared? It's like the above post, but with some degree of reasonability. Time differences - This is only supposed to work because you are physically effected by the differences inside the plane, but the planar shepard specifically says that you are immune to all physical effects of the plane. Other than that, all I can see now is killing him, and/or banning the book, but I'd like to find a compromise I can make with my player. Can people help me by continuting to post here, by naming any official/suggested erratas, and (if legal) giving the specific text of the 9th level class feature so I can find out what other rules lawyering can be done to oppose this? Thank you all
#9 Captain_Kobold Feb 09, 2009 22:08:23	The last refuge of the incompetent GM , Invoke Rule 0. True, so true. Most competent DM's will have used it as their first resort. You shouldn't feel constrained that you have to include everything in every splatbook available. If you spot something that may lead to problems later, or simply doesn't fit into your campaign, then just run the game without it. Invoking Rule 0 early on will likely save you having to enforce Rule 7 later. By inference , you probably mean that the Planar Shepherd SHOULD be able to do nothing. Did you really infer that from what DreadLord said Ravenscroft? That he thinks that there should be a prestige class can't do anything? I rather think that he simply decided his game would run smoother without Planar Shepherds.