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Primal Spirits

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sester
Jul 12, 2010 19:48:26 I highly enjoy the fluff of the Primal Spirits in 4e, and am playing a Warden in an Eberron game. However, I cannot find much about Primal Spirits. Obviously druids exist (heh), but are the Spirits as presented in Primal Power in the world?

As presented in the PoL setting, the Primal Spirits awoke during the Dawn War, and protected the world from both Primoridals and Gods... Eberron has a much more distant set of deities, and certainly no war of creation. Given that primal spirits are forces strong enough to fight gods, do they have a place in Eberron? Or is the Primal Source much like the Divine source?

Really just looking for ideas. The World Serpent has some seeming ties to dragons, fluff wise, or perhaps the Spirits arose to fight the Daelkyr.

Anyone created fluff for the Primal Spirits in Eberron? I'd love to see a Dragon Article on this...
#2
Hellcow
Jul 12, 2010 20:18:31
I highly enjoy the fluff of the Primal Spirits in 4e, and am playing a Warden in an Eberron game. However, I cannot find much about Primal Spirits. Obviously druids exist (heh), but are the Spirits as presented in Primal Power in the world?

As it stands (and there's no reason you can't change this), the Druids of the Eldeen Reaches are presented as drawing on the broad spirit of Eberron itself. This hasn't been expanded upon in detail, and I see no reason that they couldn't believe that Eberron's essence manifests itself through spiritual guides - which then guide shamans - but we've never suggested that such things are physical entities that actually played a role in the Age of Demons. Personally, I'd see them as playing the same sort of role that the Voice of the Flame does for followers of the Silver Flame - a spiritual intermediary that makes it easier for mortals to touch the vast divine.

Personally I WOULDN'T have them have risen to physically fight the Daelkyr, because the whole point is that this was the fight of the druids - not a fight of divine beings. They may have GUIDED the Gatekeepers - but it was the Gatekeepers and the Dhakaani who actually fought the battles (and as a side note, per canon it was a dragon who taught the first Gatekeepers, not an incarnate spirit). But that's my personal preference... keep them more on the level of the gods, as entities people believe in, beings that appear to grant mystic power to their followers, but who do not physically manifest beyond the level of shaman spirit guides.

The Vulkooridal - the Drow of Xen'drik - do have an established tradition of primal spirits. This is only touched on briefly in SoX and Stormreach, and developed slightly further through the character of Xu'sasar in the novel The Gates of Night. The best known of the primal spirits is of course Vulkoor the Scorpion, but others mentioned include the Shifting Panther (Displacer Beast) and Tlixin Bird. In general, however, this is a situation where Xu'sasar channels their strengths - not something where she expects to encounter them (while alive, at least).

#3
juanpierre
Jul 12, 2010 22:23:43
Since everything in the natural world is a product of the progenitor dragon, Eberron, according to myth, I think it could be appropriate for primal power to manifest in an animal form of some kind. Dragons came from Eberron, but so did wolves and bears and bunny rabbits. Everything that lives comes from Eberron. The essence of Eberron I think could manifest in such ways to guide those who devote themselves to the world-- whether that be protecting the Eldeen Reaches, to combating aberrant creatures, to tearing down the encroaching civilization. But it would just need to be tied back to the creation myth (which is a myth of war no less epic and violent than the Dawn War-- just between brother and sister dragons) of this setting instead of another.
#4
Madfox11
Jul 13, 2010 3:29:08
The Vulkooridal - the Drow of Xen'drik - do have an established tradition of primal spirits. This is only touched on briefly in SoX and Stormreach, and developed slightly further through the character of Xu'sasar in the novel The Gates of Night. The best known of the primal spirits is of course Vulkoor the Scorpion, but others mentioned include the Shifting Panther (Displacer Beast) and Tlixin Bird. In general, however, this is a situation where Xu'sasar channels their strengths - not something where she expects to encounter them (while alive, at least).

From the Dragon Below novels I got the impression that shifters also have a tendency to have a tradition around primal spirits, or is Garth (if I remember his name correctly, sorry if not, I don't have the novels at hand) constantly invokes Rat, Bear, and the like. Granted, I don't get a deeply spiritual vibe, but then again, said character is not particularly spiritual.

#5
Hellcow
Jul 13, 2010 5:47:17
From the Dragon Below novels I got the impression that shifters also have a tendency to have a tradition around primal spirits, or is Garth (if I remember his name correctly, sorry if not, I don't have the novels at hand) constantly invokes Rat, Bear, and the like. Granted, I don't get a deeply spiritual vibe, but then again, said character is not particularly spiritual.

My recollection is that Don was going for more of a folklore vibe here than a druidic thing - More Br'er Rabbit than the Primal Rabbit. Essentially, drawing on the beasts best known for being lycanthropes - the possible ancestors of shifters - and building tales and expressions around them.

I think there's a strong case for having Primal shifters do more with this, of course.
#6
Madfox11
Jul 13, 2010 6:32:53
My recollection is that Don was going for more of a folklore vibe here than a druidic thing - More Br'er Rabbit than the Primal Rabbit. Essentially, drawing on the beasts best known for being lycanthropes - the possible ancestors of shifters - and building tales and expressions around them.

I think there's a strong case for having Primal shifters do more with this, of course.

Perhaps, but how many people use folklore heroes in exclemations of distress or surprise? ;) Besides, the difference between a folklore hero and a primal spirit is very thin. If you take a look at some of the myths from Native Americans such as about for example Coyote, Wolf and Raven they are both the heroes of the story as well as primal spirits worthy of respect and worship (at least from my somewhat limited perspective as an amateur fan of legends and myths).

Having said that, I certainly would run them as you describe in your post: as spiritual guides and teachers, manifestations of Eberron who might be given a physical body through ritual and powers in the hand of mortals.

Mind you, in a non-Eberron campaign I am running primal spirits are manifestations of the local area and they take on characterastics of the region they represent. I used the Storytell Werewolf ideas on Umbra and spirit world as an inspiration. Most spirits cannot directly manifest in the physical world except by manipulating physical creature. Many of the supernatural creatures such as winter wolves and dire animals are the result of a mad primal spirit possessing a normal animal. If a dhelkyr would corrupt the land in that campaign, it is powerful enough to corrupt the spirits. Its aberrant horros might very well be the result of said corruption.
#7
Hellcow
Jul 13, 2010 12:28:01
Perhaps, but how many people use folklore heroes in exclemations of distress or surprise?

How many people still tell folktales? If folktales are a deep part of your culture, than why not invoke them instead of gods? Essentially, are you invoking them because you are actually asking for help, or because the phrase itself has come to have a cultural meaning? As you said, Geth's not deeply spiritual.

As I said, I could be totally wrong, but my recollection is that these are supposed to be the primal ancestors of the shifters... the key point there being that they aren't spirits; they were flesh and blood entities, and they aren't seen to be watching over the world today. There was a time when Bear was in the world; now we, his children, walk the world in his stead.

Again, I could certainly see a shifter Warden revering the spirits of these ancestors in the same way that a Valenar seeks to embody HIS ancestors, and believing that his powers flow from them. I'm just saying that I don't think Don meant it as a pantheon of active spirits that Geth was invoking. But I could be wrong. I'll have to poke him and ask!
#8
juanpierre
Jul 13, 2010 12:55:03 I've always seen ancestor worship as possible fluff for primal power. In Eberron, that would fit nicely with Valenar culture. I know Valenar is expressed as 'martial,' but I would think that a warden or shaman could be more martial in flavor, just as a Thrane paladin would be martial in flavor. The culture he/she comes out of is militaristic, but the source of his/her power is not simply military training. In this case, the ancestors would be behind the character's power.
#9
Hellcow
Jul 13, 2010 16:35:19
I've always seen ancestor worship as possible fluff for primal power.

Certainly. One of my favorite Valenar PCs I've DM'd for was a Valenar Shaman whose spirit companions were the spirits of ancestors who weren't legendary enough to have followers among the common Tairnadal. He came up with a list of these ancestors, so when he'd use a specific power or Speak With Spirits to improve a particular skill, we had flavor as to which ancestor he was dealing with. I could see many of the other primal characters working in the same way, reflavoring the spiritual guidance as the influence of the legendary ancestor. Beyond that, the Valenar have always had their own primal tradition; Taer Valaestas is the City of Thorns, and the article with it notes the role of Stormcaller druids (not to mention the Siyal Marrain).
#10
sester
Jul 13, 2010 16:46:34 My warden does that. His Dailies (Polymorphs) have been fluffed to be his various ancestors. Quite cool, IMO, but for plot reasons I want him to move more toward the primal aspect of the world.

That said, your response that "Eberrons essence manifests through spiritual guides" is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

#11
stringnlightswitch
Jul 13, 2010 20:46:30 I've got a Q'barran Dragonborn Barbarian in my Eberron campaign, and we're going with the Primal Spirits he channels being his Dragon Ancestors and aspects of the Progenitor Wyrms.
#12
ranadiel
Jul 14, 2010 1:54:33 I think an interesting angle with primal spirits that you could take is that Eberron (the dragon) is the world serpent or at least the Eberron (the setting) equivalent.
#13
el_shawno
Jul 14, 2010 14:26:56
I think an interesting angle with primal spirits that you could take is that Eberron (the dragon) is the world serpent or at least the Eberron (the setting) equivalent.

I remember that in William Gibson's Neuromancer 'trilogy' (Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdirve) that after Wintermute and Neuromancer merged, that the new entity couldn't hold itself together for long and split apart into several 'Loa.'

Maybe this concept could translate into Eberron. After the struggle at the beginning of the world's creation, Eberron couldn't hold its consciousness together due to the strain of having to contain Kyber. Its consciousness fractured into the various primal 'spirits' that are worshiped throughout the world.

#14
AvonRekaes
Jul 14, 2010 16:00:24 Cool idea El_Shawno. Perhaps another interpretation of the same concept, skewed to remove any weakness of Eberron percieved, could be that each Primal Spirit is a dream of Eberron, a molding of her consciousness through a particular lens while she slumbers.
#15
el_shawno
Jul 16, 2010 7:26:27
Cool idea El_Shawno. Perhaps another interpretation of the same concept, skewed to remove any weakness of Eberron percieved, could be that each Primal Spirit is a dream of Eberron, a molding of her consciousness through a particular lens while she slumbers.

Oooh! I like that!

I wonder what'd happend if the Quori figured out that primal spirits of Eberron are her dreams? Hmmm...
#16
AvonRekaes
Jul 16, 2010 10:58:01 Oooo, sweet. I dunno how I missed that connection (I'm usually on top of all things Quori).

Off the top of my head, I think it should actually be possible to physically meet and talk with the major Primal Spirits (Like the World Serpent or Primal Beast) on the plane of Dal Quor. That these dreams are the only ones that survive the various Turns of the Ages (cause it takes more than that to mess with Progenitor Dragon's dreams). I can see Quori seeking these Spirits out after every Turn, having to learn over and over that Eberron's Dreams are not to be messed with.

(Hey, perhaps the Kalashtar-lineage quori sought out a primal spirit while trying to escape the Region of Dreams, and the spirit in question said something like "If you can find Children of Eberron to welcome you, Eberron will welcome you", leading them to the Adaran monks.)

Maybe the Primal Spirits were also more readily able to manifest physically on Eberron before the Giants messed things up and threw Dal Quor out of alignment. (Perhaps the weakening of Eberron's connection with the world, through the Primal Spirits, was one of the main reasons why Dragons decided to wipe out the Giants.)
#17
mhacdebhandia
Jul 18, 2010 20:54:07
From the Dragon Below novels I got the impression that shifters also have a tendency to have a tradition around primal spirits, or is Garth (if I remember his name correctly, sorry if not, I don't have the novels at hand) constantly invokes Rat, Bear, and the like. Granted, I don't get a deeply spiritual vibe, but then again, said character is not particularly spiritual.

My recollection is that Don was going for more of a folklore vibe here than a druidic thing - More Br'er Rabbit than the Primal Rabbit. Essentially, drawing on the beasts best known for being lycanthropes - the possible ancestors of shifters - and building tales and expressions around them.

Perhaps I just like things to wrap up in a neat little package a little too much, but I actually assumed that Bear and Rat were shifter cultural names for the gods of the Sovereign Host. Bear would be Balinor or Dol Dorn, Rat would be the Traveler or the Mockery, and so on.
#18
Madfox11
Jul 19, 2010 4:45:51
Perhaps I just like things to wrap up in a neat little package a little too much, but I actually assumed that Bear and Rat were shifter cultural names for the gods of the Sovereign Host. Bear would be Balinor or Dol Dorn, Rat would be the Traveler or the Mockery, and so on.

That is certainly what the followers of the Sovereign Host would preach ;) The fact is that in Eberron the lines between different spiritual movements is vague. Divinity is not as readily definable as in the typical D&D setting. Bear could be an ancestor, a different name for one of the Sovereign Host, a primal spirit or all three. It is one of the things I like about the setting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sester Jul 12, 2010 19:48:26	I highly enjoy the fluff of the Primal Spirits in 4e, and am playing a Warden in an Eberron game. However, I cannot find much about Primal Spirits. Obviously druids exist (heh), but are the Spirits as presented in Primal Power in the world? As presented in the PoL setting, the Primal Spirits awoke during the Dawn War, and protected the world from both Primoridals and Gods... Eberron has a much more distant set of deities, and certainly no war of creation. Given that primal spirits are forces strong enough to fight gods, do they have a place in Eberron? Or is the Primal Source much like the Divine source? Really just looking for ideas. The World Serpent has some seeming ties to dragons, fluff wise, or perhaps the Spirits arose to fight the Daelkyr. Anyone created fluff for the Primal Spirits in Eberron? I'd love to see a Dragon Article on this...
#2 Hellcow Jul 12, 2010 20:18:31	I highly enjoy the fluff of the Primal Spirits in 4e, and am playing a Warden in an Eberron game. However, I cannot find much about Primal Spirits. Obviously druids exist (heh), but are the Spirits as presented in Primal Power in the world? As it stands (and there's no reason you can't change this), the Druids of the Eldeen Reaches are presented as drawing on the broad spirit of Eberron itself. This hasn't been expanded upon in detail, and I see no reason that they couldn't believe that Eberron's essence manifests itself through spiritual guides - which then guide shamans - but we've never suggested that such things are physical entities that actually played a role in the Age of Demons. Personally, I'd see them as playing the same sort of role that the Voice of the Flame does for followers of the Silver Flame - a spiritual intermediary that makes it easier for mortals to touch the vast divine. Personally I WOULDN'T have them have risen to physically fight the Daelkyr, because the whole point is that this was the fight of the druids - not a fight of divine beings. They may have GUIDED the Gatekeepers - but it was the Gatekeepers and the Dhakaani who actually fought the battles (and as a side note, per canon it was a dragon who taught the first Gatekeepers, not an incarnate spirit). But that's my personal preference... keep them more on the level of the gods, as entities people believe in, beings that appear to grant mystic power to their followers, but who do not physically manifest beyond the level of shaman spirit guides. The Vulkooridal - the Drow of Xen'drik - do have an established tradition of primal spirits. This is only touched on briefly in SoX and Stormreach, and developed slightly further through the character of Xu'sasar in the novel The Gates of Night. The best known of the primal spirits is of course Vulkoor the Scorpion, but others mentioned include the Shifting Panther (Displacer Beast) and Tlixin Bird. In general, however, this is a situation where Xu'sasar channels their strengths - not something where she expects to encounter them (while alive, at least).
#3 juanpierre Jul 12, 2010 22:23:43	Since everything in the natural world is a product of the progenitor dragon, Eberron, according to myth, I think it could be appropriate for primal power to manifest in an animal form of some kind. Dragons came from Eberron, but so did wolves and bears and bunny rabbits. Everything that lives comes from Eberron. The essence of Eberron I think could manifest in such ways to guide those who devote themselves to the world-- whether that be protecting the Eldeen Reaches, to combating aberrant creatures, to tearing down the encroaching civilization. But it would just need to be tied back to the creation myth (which is a myth of war no less epic and violent than the Dawn War-- just between brother and sister dragons) of this setting instead of another.
#4 Madfox11 Jul 13, 2010 3:29:08	The Vulkooridal - the Drow of Xen'drik - do have an established tradition of primal spirits. This is only touched on briefly in SoX and Stormreach, and developed slightly further through the character of Xu'sasar in the novel The Gates of Night. The best known of the primal spirits is of course Vulkoor the Scorpion, but others mentioned include the Shifting Panther (Displacer Beast) and Tlixin Bird. In general, however, this is a situation where Xu'sasar channels their strengths - not something where she expects to encounter them (while alive, at least). From the Dragon Below novels I got the impression that shifters also have a tendency to have a tradition around primal spirits, or is Garth (if I remember his name correctly, sorry if not, I don't have the novels at hand) constantly invokes Rat, Bear, and the like. Granted, I don't get a deeply spiritual vibe, but then again, said character is not particularly spiritual.
#5 Hellcow Jul 13, 2010 5:47:17	From the Dragon Below novels I got the impression that shifters also have a tendency to have a tradition around primal spirits, or is Garth (if I remember his name correctly, sorry if not, I don't have the novels at hand) constantly invokes Rat, Bear, and the like. Granted, I don't get a deeply spiritual vibe, but then again, said character is not particularly spiritual. My recollection is that Don was going for more of a folklore vibe here than a druidic thing - More Br'er Rabbit than the Primal Rabbit. Essentially, drawing on the beasts best known for being lycanthropes - the possible ancestors of shifters - and building tales and expressions around them. I think there's a strong case for having Primal shifters do more with this, of course.
#6 Madfox11 Jul 13, 2010 6:32:53	My recollection is that Don was going for more of a folklore vibe here than a druidic thing - More Br'er Rabbit than the Primal Rabbit. Essentially, drawing on the beasts best known for being lycanthropes - the possible ancestors of shifters - and building tales and expressions around them. I think there's a strong case for having Primal shifters do more with this, of course. Perhaps, but how many people use folklore heroes in exclemations of distress or surprise? ;) Besides, the difference between a folklore hero and a primal spirit is very thin. If you take a look at some of the myths from Native Americans such as about for example Coyote, Wolf and Raven they are both the heroes of the story as well as primal spirits worthy of respect and worship (at least from my somewhat limited perspective as an amateur fan of legends and myths). Having said that, I certainly would run them as you describe in your post: as spiritual guides and teachers, manifestations of Eberron who might be given a physical body through ritual and powers in the hand of mortals. Mind you, in a non-Eberron campaign I am running primal spirits are manifestations of the local area and they take on characterastics of the region they represent. I used the Storytell Werewolf ideas on Umbra and spirit world as an inspiration. Most spirits cannot directly manifest in the physical world except by manipulating physical creature. Many of the supernatural creatures such as winter wolves and dire animals are the result of a mad primal spirit possessing a normal animal. If a dhelkyr would corrupt the land in that campaign, it is powerful enough to corrupt the spirits. Its aberrant horros might very well be the result of said corruption.
#7 Hellcow Jul 13, 2010 12:28:01	Perhaps, but how many people use folklore heroes in exclemations of distress or surprise? How many people still tell folktales? If folktales are a deep part of your culture, than why not invoke them instead of gods? Essentially, are you invoking them because you are actually asking for help, or because the phrase itself has come to have a cultural meaning? As you said, Geth's not deeply spiritual. As I said, I could be totally wrong, but my recollection is that these are supposed to be the primal ancestors of the shifters... the key point there being that they aren't spirits; they were flesh and blood entities, and they aren't seen to be watching over the world today. There was a time when Bear was in the world; now we, his children, walk the world in his stead. Again, I could certainly see a shifter Warden revering the spirits of these ancestors in the same way that a Valenar seeks to embody HIS ancestors, and believing that his powers flow from them. I'm just saying that I don't think Don meant it as a pantheon of active spirits that Geth was invoking. But I could be wrong. I'll have to poke him and ask!
#8 juanpierre Jul 13, 2010 12:55:03	I've always seen ancestor worship as possible fluff for primal power. In Eberron, that would fit nicely with Valenar culture. I know Valenar is expressed as 'martial,' but I would think that a warden or shaman could be more martial in flavor, just as a Thrane paladin would be martial in flavor. The culture he/she comes out of is militaristic, but the source of his/her power is not simply military training. In this case, the ancestors would be behind the character's power.
#9 Hellcow Jul 13, 2010 16:35:19	I've always seen ancestor worship as possible fluff for primal power. Certainly. One of my favorite Valenar PCs I've DM'd for was a Valenar Shaman whose spirit companions were the spirits of ancestors who weren't legendary enough to have followers among the common Tairnadal. He came up with a list of these ancestors, so when he'd use a specific power or Speak With Spirits to improve a particular skill, we had flavor as to which ancestor he was dealing with. I could see many of the other primal characters working in the same way, reflavoring the spiritual guidance as the influence of the legendary ancestor. Beyond that, the Valenar have always had their own primal tradition; Taer Valaestas is the City of Thorns, and the article with it notes the role of Stormcaller druids (not to mention the Siyal Marrain).
#10 sester Jul 13, 2010 16:46:34	My warden does that. His Dailies (Polymorphs) have been fluffed to be his various ancestors. Quite cool, IMO, but for plot reasons I want him to move more toward the primal aspect of the world. That said, your response that "Eberrons essence manifests through spiritual guides" is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
#11 stringnlightswitch Jul 13, 2010 20:46:30	I've got a Q'barran Dragonborn Barbarian in my Eberron campaign, and we're going with the Primal Spirits he channels being his Dragon Ancestors and aspects of the Progenitor Wyrms.
#12 ranadiel Jul 14, 2010 1:54:33	I think an interesting angle with primal spirits that you could take is that Eberron (the dragon) is the world serpent or at least the Eberron (the setting) equivalent.
#13 el_shawno Jul 14, 2010 14:26:56	I think an interesting angle with primal spirits that you could take is that Eberron (the dragon) is the world serpent or at least the Eberron (the setting) equivalent. I remember that in William Gibson's Neuromancer 'trilogy' (Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdirve) that after Wintermute and Neuromancer merged, that the new entity couldn't hold itself together for long and split apart into several 'Loa.' Maybe this concept could translate into Eberron. After the struggle at the beginning of the world's creation, Eberron couldn't hold its consciousness together due to the strain of having to contain Kyber. Its consciousness fractured into the various primal 'spirits' that are worshiped throughout the world.
#14 AvonRekaes Jul 14, 2010 16:00:24	Cool idea El_Shawno. Perhaps another interpretation of the same concept, skewed to remove any weakness of Eberron percieved, could be that each Primal Spirit is a dream of Eberron, a molding of her consciousness through a particular lens while she slumbers.
#15 el_shawno Jul 16, 2010 7:26:27	Cool idea El_Shawno. Perhaps another interpretation of the same concept, skewed to remove any weakness of Eberron percieved, could be that each Primal Spirit is a dream of Eberron, a molding of her consciousness through a particular lens while she slumbers. Oooh! I like that! I wonder what'd happend if the Quori figured out that primal spirits of Eberron are her dreams? Hmmm...
#16 AvonRekaes Jul 16, 2010 10:58:01	Oooo, sweet. I dunno how I missed that connection (I'm usually on top of all things Quori). Off the top of my head, I think it should actually be possible to physically meet and talk with the major Primal Spirits (Like the World Serpent or Primal Beast) on the plane of Dal Quor. That these dreams are the only ones that survive the various Turns of the Ages (cause it takes more than that to mess with Progenitor Dragon's dreams). I can see Quori seeking these Spirits out after every Turn, having to learn over and over that Eberron's Dreams are not to be messed with. (Hey, perhaps the Kalashtar-lineage quori sought out a primal spirit while trying to escape the Region of Dreams, and the spirit in question said something like "If you can find Children of Eberron to welcome you, Eberron will welcome you", leading them to the Adaran monks.) Maybe the Primal Spirits were also more readily able to manifest physically on Eberron before the Giants messed things up and threw Dal Quor out of alignment. (Perhaps the weakening of Eberron's connection with the world, through the Primal Spirits, was one of the main reasons why Dragons decided to wipe out the Giants.)
#17 mhacdebhandia Jul 18, 2010 20:54:07	From the Dragon Below novels I got the impression that shifters also have a tendency to have a tradition around primal spirits, or is Garth (if I remember his name correctly, sorry if not, I don't have the novels at hand) constantly invokes Rat, Bear, and the like. Granted, I don't get a deeply spiritual vibe, but then again, said character is not particularly spiritual. My recollection is that Don was going for more of a folklore vibe here than a druidic thing - More Br'er Rabbit than the Primal Rabbit. Essentially, drawing on the beasts best known for being lycanthropes - the possible ancestors of shifters - and building tales and expressions around them. Perhaps I just like things to wrap up in a neat little package a little too much, but I actually assumed that Bear and Rat were shifter cultural names for the gods of the Sovereign Host. Bear would be Balinor or Dol Dorn, Rat would be the Traveler or the Mockery, and so on.
#18 Madfox11 Jul 19, 2010 4:45:51	Perhaps I just like things to wrap up in a neat little package a little too much, but I actually assumed that Bear and Rat were shifter cultural names for the gods of the Sovereign Host. Bear would be Balinor or Dol Dorn, Rat would be the Traveler or the Mockery, and so on. That is certainly what the followers of the Sovereign Host would preach ;) The fact is that in Eberron the lines between different spiritual movements is vague. Divinity is not as readily definable as in the typical D&D setting. Bear could be an ancestor, a different name for one of the Sovereign Host, a primal spirit or all three. It is one of the things I like about the setting.