I imagine you could drop him and his associates into either locale by emphasizing one aspect or the other (play up the lost love and truename in Thelanis, drive home his embodiment of cold in Risia, etc.)
I'd particularly like to hear Mr. Baker's take on this, since I can't imagine he didn't give it some thought while writing the article.
Arguably this could go in Running Eberron instead of Eberron Lore, but it's sort of in-between.
There's a new DDI article up about an archfey, the Prince of Frost, the most powerful of the winter fey. Where would you say the Prince of Frost and his retinue could be found in Eberron? In Thelanis, or in Risia? The archfey aspects and the plotline are pretty solidly in line with what I'd ascribe to Thelanis, but I feel like Risia is in dire need of spicing up.
I imagine you could drop him and his associates into either locale by emphasizing one aspect or the other (play up the lost love and truename in Thelanis, drive home his embodiment of cold in Risia, etc.)
I'd particularly like to hear Mr. Baker's take on this, since I can't imagine he didn't give it some thought while writing the article.
Arguably this could go in Running Eberron instead of Eberron Lore, but it's sort of in-between.
Well Thelanis is where all forms of nature come together. So there could be a rather cold place on Thelanis, maybe on a moutain peak or something.
However as you said Risia could use some spicing up. I know it would be a stretch, but you could place a manifest zone to either plane on the other plane. Or perahps Risia, being its own world, could have evolved it's own flora. Maybe there is a forest of evergreens on Risia. I really think there is a lot of possibiltys.
I now have a super-villain with which to freeze over all of Khorvaire :D .
NO! NO! get out of my head silly coments about lame batman movies.... cant resist urge... must say "cool off!" Curse you for putting that picture into my head PJamaGod :p
I'm sure you'd look great in green tights Skrapsan ;)
"If knowledge is power, then a God am I"
I'm sure you'd look great in green tights Skrapsan ;)
Ice to see you!
There is a magic artifact in one of the DDI Dungeon Adventures that is fey in origin (Fomori) and has ice powers with the goal of making everything frosty if I remember correctly. Might be fun for a long story arc about Thelanis and an invasion by the Prince of Frost...
My players just found the "Orb of the Sequestered Glacier" (AV2) in the claw of a dead, frozen Storm Guardian (Blue Dragon). The body floated near Sarlona's west shore on board an ice sheet detached from the glacier that traps the overlord Rajah: Ral Tulkesh.
I believe I will be using the Pale Prince as a sort of benefactor to the main villain of my campaign. Definitely dwells on Thelanis, but his domain might also pass into Risia as well.
At least it wasn't a frosty reception...
And to think that this is only the icing of the cake...
Curse you PJammaGod, as well as you skrapsan, for making this thread ridiculIce. Drat. I knew I cold not resist.:D
My players just found the "Orb of the Sequestered Glacier" (AV2) in the claw of a dead, frozen Storm Guardian (Blue Dragon). The body floated near Sarlona's west shore on board an ice sheet detached from the glacier that traps the overlord Rajah: Ral Tulkesh.
Intresting. How is this conected to the prince of frost( forgive me if it is obvious or is said in something I have not read)? Also, tell me more about this dead, frozen, orb clutching, Storm Guardian.
Intresting. How is this conected to the prince of frost( forgive me if it is obvious or is said in something I have not read)? Also, tell me more about this dead, frozen, orb clutching, Storm Guardian.
There is no direct connection to the article. I'm just taking some of the ideas suggested in the thread and making the article fit my campaign too:
The campaign actually plays out on two continents in two time lines (-212YK and 998YK), with somewhat of a complex plot that takes the PC's mind via a time morphic Dreamspace (a Dal Quor dream which is also a time-travel reality) into the bodies of a group of Edgewalkers failing to stop the Heirs of Ohr Kaluun in -212YK, while dealing with the consequences as the glacier approaches Sharn in 998YK.
- The pale prince is not a Fey but instead a Rajah.
- The Storm Guardians (same group of dragons from Adar, but in my campaign they actively prevent the release of the pale prince)
- The pale prince was kept inside a glacier on the western coast of the Tashana Tundra (Sarlona) in a wild zone linked to Risia which is his prison home.
- The Heirs of Ohr Kaluun detach the ice shelf containing the glacier from the Tashana Tundra, in an attempt to release the Rajah.
- The dead Blue dragon was a clue to the PC for the importance of the the glacier prison that now ("now" is actually -212YK/90 Unity) floats freely in the Sea of Rage.
- A reality storm linked to Risia follows the glacier as it travel Eberron's seas.
The campaign actually plays out on two continents in two time lines (-212YK and 998YK), with somewhat of a complex plot that takes the PC's mind via a time morphic Dreamspace (a Dal Quor dream which is also a time-travel reality) into the bodies of a group of Edgewalkers failing to stop the Heirs of Ohr Kaluun in -212YK, while dealing with the consequences as the glacier approaches Sharn in 998YK.
Definitely dwells on Thelanis, but his domain might also pass into Risia as well.
I'd lean towards this. It's similar to having a rakshasa overlord of winter, who is a spirit of Eberron and dwells on Eberron but who channels the energy of Risia through her nature. The Prince of Frost is a fey lord of Thelanis, but he has a mystical connection to Risia.
Curse you PJammaGod, as well as you skrapsan, for making this thread ridiculIce. Drat. I knew I cold not resist.:D
It's cool mate, there's plenty more jokes to polarise this topic yet
I'd lean towards this. It's similar to having a rakshasa overlord of winter, who is a spirit of Eberron and dwells on Eberron but who channels the energy of Risia through her nature. The Prince of Frost is a fey lord of Thelanis, but he has a mystical connection to Risia.
Hellcow has spoken! Very inresting Hellcow. How exactly does this mystical conection work?
It's cool mate, there's plenty more jokes to polarise this topic yet
You snow that it would be a shame for the jokes to stop coming.
A manifest zone of Risia in Thelanis? Why not?
You snow that it would be a shame for the jokes to stop coming.
Never thaw that one coming :P
The planes all connect to Eberron, but why shouldn't they connect to one another?
A manifest zone of Risia in Thelanis? Why not?
I agree. But I think that there should be limitations. Perhaps there can't be a manifest zone from Fernia to Risia.
As I said earlyer in the second post of this thread it would be a stretch. Also did You not see my first post?
Never thaw that one coming :P
I'm melting with laughter.:D
I'd lean towards this. It's similar to having a rakshasa overlord of winter, who is a spirit of Eberron and dwells on Eberron but who channels the energy of Risia through her nature. The Prince of Frost is a fey lord of Thelanis, but he has a mystical connection to Risia.
Nifty! This actually neatly brings together an idea I've been toying with for a (actually similarly glacier-locked; for me, the idea was largely inspired by 3.5 Frostburn's use of Levistus. Also the Lich king from Warcraft) Raja of Hatred; it would actually work pretty perfectly for him to channel the energy of Shavarath through his nature, and this gives me a lot more liberty when it comes to outfitting him.
In my case, there's some pretty heaped up personal group canon behind it:
Sblocked for the uninterested
Basically, in an old "end of the Last War" campaign, an NPC returned from the Frostfell with an artifact sword that seemed to have the overall long-term effect (combined with dying and coming back... wrong) of turning the weilder, one of the PCs, into a Corruption-fueled rageaholic character. A nearly-faded inscription on the blade makes reference to a 'Lord of All Blades', which another PC, a warforged, (in keeping with the corruption theme of the campaign) takes future inspiration from when he creates the Lord of Blades persona for himself.
The campaign that I've been toying with would have the PCs investigating the theft of this (currently Disjoined, and thus interacting funkily with magic) blade from one of the other survivors of the first campaign, leading them to some Frostfell settlements and a very insidious cult of this particular Raja, all while this Raja awakens, and some of his Hate powers start to fill the world (a la the Elder Evils effect, with the expected impact on Kourvaire's shaky truce). The one very sad thing is that real-life circumstances ATM make it very difficult to wrangle the old players together, and I'm not entirely sure how well another group would appreciate it as a stand-alone, without all the history.
Basically, in an old "end of the Last War" campaign, an NPC returned from the Frostfell with an artifact sword that seemed to have the overall long-term effect (combined with dying and coming back... wrong) of turning the weilder, one of the PCs, into a Corruption-fueled rageaholic character. A nearly-faded inscription on the blade makes reference to a 'Lord of All Blades', which another PC, a warforged, (in keeping with the corruption theme of the campaign) takes future inspiration from when he creates the Lord of Blades persona for himself.
The campaign that I've been toying with would have the PCs investigating the theft of this (currently Disjoined, and thus interacting funkily with magic) blade from one of the other survivors of the first campaign, leading them to some Frostfell settlements and a very insidious cult of this particular Raja, all while this Raja awakens, and some of his Hate powers start to fill the world (a la the Elder Evils effect, with the expected impact on Kourvaire's shaky truce). The one very sad thing is that real-life circumstances ATM make it very difficult to wrangle the old players together, and I'm not entirely sure how well another group would appreciate it as a stand-alone, without all the history.
The planes all connect to Eberron, but why shouldn't they connect to one another?
Enh, I wouldn't like this too much, because it seems to cut somewhat against the idea of Eberron as the material plane, where the natures of all the other planes mix and blend, and as the realm on which all the other planes have influence. There might be regions of each plane that are "closer" to each other than others, but I wouldn't say they're necessarily connected.
Honestly, the tack I'd most likely use, to toy with the Thelanis-as-feywild and Thelanis-as-nature ideas, is to simply say that manifest zones and the like are tied to roughly corresponding regions in Thelanis: an arctic or cold-weather manifest zone to Thelanis will tie to an arctic region of Thelanis, one that would still be thematically apropriate for this sort of guy.
===Aelryinth
Enh, I wouldn't like this too much, because it seems to cut somewhat against the idea of Eberron as the material plane, where the natures of all the other planes mix and blend, and as the realm on which all the other planes have influence. There might be regions of each plane that are "closer" to each other than others, but I wouldn't say they're necessarily connected.
Honestly, the tack I'd most likely use, to toy with the Thelanis-as-feywild and Thelanis-as-nature ideas, is to simply say that manifest zones and the like are tied to roughly corresponding regions in Thelanis: an arctic or cold-weather manifest zone to Thelanis will tie to an arctic region of Thelanis, one that would still be thematically apropriate for this sort of guy.
At a suggestion, it helps if you don't think of Eberron as "THE material plane." If you think of Eberron—in it's own context, obviously—as "reality," all of this becomes somewhat easier to grasp.
Allow me to illustrate, with a couplet from a famous poem:
The mind is its own place, and in itself
can make a heaven of Hell, or a hell of Heaven
Thelanis is not a world, nor is Risia; nor is Eberron. All of them together are a world. Each of the planes, itself, is only one part, one perspective of the world they together make whole.
Thelanis is that perspective on the world that we call "wonder." It encompasses joy in being, the exhilaration of running through a field of tall grass, the squeal of a child presented with a new toy, and the thrill of the hunt.
Risia is not simply Antarctica-with-magic. Risia is cold, it concept of coldness. It is ice, and it is emotional isolation. [1] It is stasis, unchanging. It is the idea of what it means to be cold, to be frozen—or freezing.
The Prince of Frost is both of these at once: the wonder of a pristine blanket of snow, the beauty of a snowflake, the fury of sleet embodied, emotionally and socially isolated, more than willing to encompass others in his isolation.
The "mystical connection" is no mystery at all: every mind in the setting has some part of all of the planes, some part of each of the parts that make up the whole mind. Ritual, habit, practice, and desire simply emphasize the connection to one part or another.
The Prince of Frost is fey, and the home of his being is Thelanis. But in his pride, in his haughtiness, he has separated himself from others, becoming withdrawn, cold. And in so doing, he has united a part of himself with Risia.
—Siran Dunmorgan
P.S. For the sake of illustration, Eberron is reality. Eberron is the part of the whole mind that goes to work, pays the bills, takes out the trash, and cleans up after Thelanis, Kythri and Lammania have a pillow fight at their sleepover.
All the planes have something to do with one another. Sometimes, this is opposition, in the same sense that Eberron and Dal Quor are at odds, the one being reality and the other being dream. Sometimes, this is affinity, in the sense that Mabar and Dolurrh both have something of shadow, of darkness.
[1] Recent studies confirm that people who are physically cold feel social separation from others, and vice versa: social separation causes the sensation of cold in the isolated person. http://www.news.utoronto.ca/lead-stories/does-social-isolation-literally-feel-cold.html
At a suggestion, it helps if you don't think of Eberron as "THE material plane." If you think of Eberron—in it's own context, obviously—as "reality," all of this becomes somewhat easier to grasp.
My (strongly supported) theory holds that just as Eberron is a world born of the metaphysical forms of three Progenitor Dragons, the other planes are lesser Cosmic Dragons. Siberys, Eberron, and Khyber were merely the greatest amongst these beings. Being combined as they are, the reality they form is the most diverse and the most conflicted. The realities formed by the others are simpler and more pure.
The world of Eberron is central, not merely in the minds of those who live there. The battle that created it remains the most influential event in the cosmos; the outcome of which is yet undecided. The forces of the planes seek to influence that outcome, and they in turn are influenced by events on Eberron. While the majority of their influence may be directed at Eberron, there should be no reason to assume that they have no effect on one another.
I should think that manifest zones between two planes could exist, as could coterminous/remote periods. Their frequency would be more difficult to predict, based on the fact that they orbit Eberron at different speeds and perhaps at different distances. But perhaps when they do influence each other, that influence is more pronounced due to the simplicity of the planes in question as compared to Eberron. Certain planes, based on the fact that they're never close to Eberron at the same time, are never close enough to one another to make such a difference (Fernia/Risis & Irian/Mabar).
All of this leads me to think that there could be a fey being, native to Thelanis and embodying the natural wonders of winter, who has gained a great deal of power. Who hungers for more and has sought out a place in his world that has felt the touch of Risia and absorbed its power. Who now waits with the patience of an immortal for Risia to draw close again.
To think that the number of planes would be an exception to this rule is hilarious: if there is any number important enought for this rule to hold, it's the number of outter planes.
So, Eberron is central. Gurv's argument's hold true, by the way, with one exception:
If we are to assume that Outter Planes may contact each other, then we would have to believe that there can be a manifest zone of...
Risia into Fernia
Daanvi into Kythri
Mabar into Irian
Zoriat into Syrannia
Dolurth into Irian
etc.
Which is very unlikely.
Finally, it's worth mentioning that Thelanis is not a realm of nature. That's Lammania. If anything, Thelanis is a realm of magic.
So, Eberron is central. Gurv's argument's hold true, by the way, with one exception:
If we are to assume that Outter Planes may contact each other, then we would have to believe that there can be a manifest zone of...
Risia into Fernia
Daanvi into Kythri
Mabar into Irian
Zoriat into Syrannia
Dolurth into Irian
etc.
Which is very unlikely.
Not necessarily. Embarrassingly, I don't have my ECS available at the moment, so I can't quote it. But I've put a lot of thought into Eberron's cosmology. The fact that Risia and Fernia are coterminous with Eberron at opposite times of the year shows that they are never close to one another (I suppose a model could be created where they are, but nothing supports it). If I recall correctly, the same stands for Irian and Mabar, and it would likely be the same with Daanvi and Kythri if it were not for the latter plane's defining unpredictability.
Imagine that all the planes are in elliptical orbits around Eberron (as we know they are). But certain pairs are actually in the same orbital path, always on the opposite side of the Material Plane.
So while it is possible for some planes to draw closer to one another as they orbit Eberron, certain planes never cannot. Remember that we're describing the fundamental building blocks of reality here; Fernia and Risia are not opposed because the properties of fire and water are opposed: fire and water are opposed because of the nature of the planes that spawn them.
It should be noted that Xoriat is not particularly opposed to Syrannia, at least no more so than it is to another other plane. And given its altered orbit through the cosmos, it is unlikely to have contact with any plane.
Not necessarily. Embarrassingly, I don't have my ECS available at the moment, so I can't quote it. But I've put a lot of thought into Eberron's cosmology. The fact that Risia and Fernia are coterminous with Eberron at opposite times of the year shows that they are never close to one another (I suppose a model could be created where they are, but nothing supports it). If I recall correctly, the same stands for Irian and Mabar, and it would likely be the same with Daanvi and Kythri if it were not for the latter plane's defining unpredictability.
Indeed. it is phsically impossible for this kind of thing to happen. Think of it like this: Is it possible for fire and water, both insubtantial subtances, to be in the same space at the same time? As was said above, the same thing holds true for every poller opposite. Although if you think about the idea of the dao...., on second thought I'm not up for going into a philosophical debate on how nothing is something and from this exsistense comes everything.
So while it is possible for some planes to draw closer to one another as they orbit Eberron, certain planes never cannot. Remember that we're describing the fundamental building blocks of reality here; Fernia and Risia are not opposed because the properties of fire and water are opposed: fire and water are opposed because of the nature of the planes that spawn them.
Precisely.
Indeed. it is phsically impossible for this kind of thing to happen. Think of it like this: Is it possible for fire and water, both insubtantial subtances, to be in the same space at the same time? As was said above, the same thing holds true for every poller opposite. Although if you think about the idea of the dao...., on second thought I'm not up for going into a philosophical debate on how nothing is something and from this exsistense comes everything.
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not here. In either case, I don't follow your example. In a magical world, it is indeed possible for insubstantial substances to be in the same place at the same time. Not only is anything possible with magic, there are rules permitting such combinations in this case. If the real world fire and water are not insubstantial things to begin with...and their tendency to negate one another is not really due to their being "opposites".
and their tendency to negate one another is not really due to their being "opposites".
In my view this argument is largely based on the two versions of viewing fire and water or the other elements. Do we follow the "everything is made up from a combination of elements" school or do we follow "the world is built up by atoms or something similar" school.
I mention this because whether water and fire are opposing forces depends on what school you follow, quite naturally. Now it would seem that 4e has taken a step away from the composed of elements thinking since there is no more elemental plane of X any longer in the core cosmology. And as far as I remember there is no plane of Earth and wind in Eberron...
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not here.
I'm just trying to take in both sides of the argument. But just to clarify I agree with you.
In either case, I don't follow your example.
I just trying to give an example to androkguz on why Fernia and Risia can't connect to each other. I agree that fire and water are opposed not because of their nature, but because of the planes that which they come from. I was just using the fire and water thing as a metaphor.
In a magical world, it is indeed possible for insubstantial substances to be in the same place at the same time. Not only is anything possible with magic, there are rules permitting such combinations in this case.
Yes, of course I understand that. Anything is possible with magic. And magic, being part of the natural world, is just like every other force of nature and governed by a set of laws.
If the real world fire and water are not insubstantial things to begin with...and their tendency to negate one another is not really due to their being "opposites".
I don't follow. Any object can be thrust through fire, so does that not make it insubstantial?
If there is light in Mabar at all, it must be connected to Irian. If there is fire in Risia at all, it must be connected to Fernia. If there is discord or change in Daanvi, it must be connected to Kythri.
Dal Quor is as disconnected from Eberron as it's possible to be, and yet there is still dream in Eberron.
Even if we disregard theory, we have the evidence that Keith Baker's novel The Gates of Night is much concerned with the connection between Thelanis and Dal Quor, clearly establishing that connections directly from plane to plane do exist.
I would assert that connections between all of the planes always exist, however weakly.
There is nothing particularly reprehensible about the idea that some aspect of Risia could be manifest in a Prince of Thelanis.
—Siran Dunmorgan
P.S. For what it's worth, there is a plane associated with wind and air and flight in the Eberron cosmology: Syrannia. Earth and stone per se are associated with Lamannia, which, if one associates water with Risia, gives a fourfold elemental set, which is a valid way of looking at the cosmology.
It's fun to find other patterns too, like associating planes with—if you're a 4th Edition fancier—power sources, e.g. Martial with Shavarath, Divine with Syrannia, Arcane with Thelanis, Primal with Lamannia and Psionic with Dal Quor.
Are we seriously prepared to assert that there is no light in Mabar? That one cannot set a fire in Risia? That nothing in Daanvi changes?
In a homebrew campaign, I would tend to run planes that way. I prefer my planes to be absolute in manifesting their traits. So I can easily imagine running it that way.
But no, I don't think that is the way Eberron's cosmology is meant to be. Something I liked about the planes from the start was that they're more flavorful than "plane of air". Syrannia is a plane of air, but it is much more than that. It is a plane of sky, and that adds so much more to draw from when describing it to players. The fact that it is good aligned and home to angels makes it even more interesting.
I would say, however, that light on Mabar isn't as simple as it is on Eberron. Maybe you're right and there is a weak connection to Irian. But that weak connection is going to be at least as significant as when Irian is remote from Eberron. It will be further compounded by Mabar's own traits. That makes light on Mabar two steps more foreign. I would require a caster level check for any spell with the light descriptor. Further, I would make any light actually produced half as effective.
I would treat any of the "opposite" planes thus.
Dal Quor is as disconnected from Eberron as it's possible to be, and yet there is still dream in Eberron.
Agreed. This is slightly off-topic, but I have a theory that when Dal Quor had a closer link to Eberron, the world itself was different. Maybe dreams were more vivid, or lucid, or events within them persisted after waking more than they can now. Note that the quori of the current age do not know the reason why those of the previous age were so intent of invading. That reason may be something unfathomable to those who did not experience those times. Whatever effect Dal Quor's proximity had on Eberron, it was significant enough that the tidal forces rocked the world when the plane was banished.
Agreed. This is slightly off-topic, but I have a theory that when Dal Quor had a closer link to Eberron, the world itself was different. Maybe dreams were more vivid, or lucid, or events within them persisted after waking more than they can now. Note that the quori of the current age do not know the reason why those of the previous age were so intent of invading. That reason may be something unfathomable to those who did not experience those times. Whatever effect Dal Quor's proximity had on Eberron, it was significant enough that the tidal forces rocked the world when the plane was banished.
I actually had a concept for a kalashtar character (I'm almost always DM, so it was always just a concept...sigh) that would inquire excitedly about the dreams of his fellow party members, and sit back and just soak in their awkward, "Uhh...well, I was...uhh..." stories with a big grin on his face like he had just dosed himself with dreamlily as a bit of a character hook, and then after a particularily bad event in the game, where the whole party was affected by a particularily rough moral choice or something similar, he wouldn't ask the next morning, and when prodded by other players, he would state in a dead, flat voice that it was useless, since none of them lucid dreamt anyway, and none had since before Taratai was even born. And, if a Warforged was in the group, I'd probably conspire with that player on this bit of RP to have him chime in with, "I don't even dream at all." and have my character burst into tears.
This might've been addressed already, but why not have a Risia in Thelanis? If Eberron itself can have manifest zones, why can't her moons as well?
Thelanis is the Plane of Fey, not a moon.
My mistake, but I think my point is still valid. Manifest zones could occur on any other plane, not just Eberron, don't you think?
That was, in fact, discussed just earlier in the thread.
Seems to be a point of contention for some people, but I think it's a fine idea.