There's that one Overlord in Adar, bound by an eldritch machine of dragonshards, there's the one in the Draconic Prophecy trilogy by James Wyatt that's trapped in a giant crystal with a couatl, and Tiamat bound in her pit.
But the only Rajah we really know of that's actually bound by the Silver Flame is the Shadow in the Flame. It seems rather odd to me that the entire couatl race sacrificed themselves to bind the Rajahs, yet the majority of prisons we see in fiction and lore are bound by various types of eldritch machines, and the one we know for a fact is in the Silver Flame was only *recently* bound by it.
I've been thinking about the timeline for this, and I'm assuming that the allied Dragon-Couatl forces had successfully managed to bind a few Rajahs before the Couatls made their ultimate sacrifice to create (or summon) the Silver Flame. I'm wondering why they had to make the sacrifice if they were successfully binding Rajahs beforehand though. Or maybe they made their sacrifice and a few Rajahs escaped the Flame, later to be bound by the few remaining couatl and the Dragons.
I'd really like Keith's input on this, obviously, but I also what to know what conclusions everyone else has drawn.
...and Tiamat bound in her pit.
But what do you think is holding her in her pit, AR?
The Silver Flame is the force that's holding the Overlords at bay. But by and large, the name is metaphorical. Most of the Overlords are, in some form or another, bound in dragonshards. But it's the spiritual force of the Silver Flame that holds them IN those crystal prisons. It doesn't LOOK like silver flame. The fountain at Flamekeep is an exception in that it is a literal manifestation of Silver Flame. But that little flame is just a trivial, trivial manifestation of the vast well of spiritual force forged from the spirits of the couatl, and if the tenets of the faith are correct, that's been strengthened by countless noble souls since then.
I imagine it's OK for me to present a quote from the ECG:
Releasing an overlord is no trivial manner. The prisons of the overlords are as indestructible as the fiends themselves. The only way for an overlord to be released is for a certain path of the Prophecy to come to pass. For this reason the actions of the Lords of Dust are enigmatic. They cannot simply release their masters - they must bring history to a particular crossroads, a point at which the planes and moons are aligned and the darkness can rise again. It is up to you to decide just what is required for a particular overlord to be released. It could be something as grim as the downfall of a nation, or something as positive as the birth of a child.
I'll add in one of my quotes from this thread.
Show
The key thing as I see it is that there is no Universal Plan For Overlord Freedom. It's not as simple as destroying a Gatekeeper seal. Freeing an Overlord is a matter of manipulating the Prophecy in a certain direction - which is why it's taken the Lords of Dust tens of thousands of years to do. They CAN'T rush it. If Eldrantulku can only be freed when the firstborn son of Merrix d'Cannith (and does that mean a human child, or his first warforged creation?) slays the Last King of Breland at a specific battlefield in a specific year, then they've got to set all those things in motion. They have to make sure there IS a Merrix d'Cannith. They have to create tensions between dragonmarked houses and Breland to drive for battle between them - or otherwise engineer circumstances so one will kill the other at that specific place. Meanwhile, Katashka the Gatekeeper may only be freed when the Queen of the Dead restores the Lost Mark only to fall at the hand of the greatest child of the Line of Life (House Jorasco? The Undying Court?). The agents of Katashka may have thus been responsible for the original conflict between the line of Vol and Argonnessen, needing Erandis to be created, to have the mark BE lost, and even now they have an interest both in Vol regaining her mark and in helping the PCs defeat her... so that an even greater terror can rise from the ashes of her defeat.
The first point is that there's no overall plan for the Lords of Dust, because each have very different paths to follow. The second is that it's entirely possible that the arrival/defeat/release of the daelkyr may be PART of one or more of their plans. The Voice In The Darkness is an Overlord of Madness herself, and as such it's quite possible that the actions of the daelkyr are tied to her release. So a servant of Katashka might consider the daelkyr to be foul interlopers that will be destroyed when his Overlord rises; while a servant of the Voice In The Darkness may consider that daelkyr to be both useful tools and things of beauty reflecting the visions of her Mistress.
With all that said, if you want a truly epic threat, it's always possible to say that one overlord can release another... though luckily for the world, this didn't happen when the Shadow in the Flame was unleashed in Thrane centuries ago.
Another side point is that human/goblin/elf civilization didn't even exist when the Overlords walked the world. As such, they have no attachment to it, and it makes little difference to them if the daelkyr destroy it before the Overlords return. It's entirely possible that it's REQUIRED for their release; the Rage of War could be released when a third great empire falls; the giants were number one, the Dhakaani were number two, and now it's humanity in Riedra or Khorvaire that have to go.
The first point is that there's no overall plan for the Lords of Dust, because each have very different paths to follow. The second is that it's entirely possible that the arrival/defeat/release of the daelkyr may be PART of one or more of their plans. The Voice In The Darkness is an Overlord of Madness herself, and as such it's quite possible that the actions of the daelkyr are tied to her release. So a servant of Katashka might consider the daelkyr to be foul interlopers that will be destroyed when his Overlord rises; while a servant of the Voice In The Darkness may consider that daelkyr to be both useful tools and things of beauty reflecting the visions of her Mistress.
With all that said, if you want a truly epic threat, it's always possible to say that one overlord can release another... though luckily for the world, this didn't happen when the Shadow in the Flame was unleashed in Thrane centuries ago.
Another side point is that human/goblin/elf civilization didn't even exist when the Overlords walked the world. As such, they have no attachment to it, and it makes little difference to them if the daelkyr destroy it before the Overlords return. It's entirely possible that it's REQUIRED for their release; the Rage of War could be released when a third great empire falls; the giants were number one, the Dhakaani were number two, and now it's humanity in Riedra or Khorvaire that have to go.
Clearly it's an insidious force which corrupts the hearts of mortals, but that goes for all the overlords in some form.
This provoked a pondering: What did The Shadow In The Flame do before it was released and then rebound?
The Shadow in the Flame is actually discussed in more detail (and provided with stats, for that matter) in the ECG.
I also figured that the metaphor of the Flame was more or less accurate since the Gash'kala orcs also referred to the same force as the "Binding Flame" and that these ideas developed seperately from each other.
I also figured that the metaphor of the Flame was more or less accurate since the Gash'kala orcs also referred to the same force as the "Binding Flame" and that these ideas developed seperately from each other.
It's a force of light created by the essence of noble souls. It CAN manifest as silver flame, and generally does when employed by divine classes - including the Ghaash'kala. So the weapon of the Ghaash'kala paladin is sheathed in argent flame. It's just that it doesn't always manifest in this way in the prisons themselves. But the energy is there, even if the manifestation is absent.
So the Serpent Cults of Xen'drik (at least the ones still loyal to the couatl and not yuan-ti abominations) wouldn't necessarily see the same forces as a Fire or Flame.
Is the Shadow in the Flame's lack of real physical prison the reason why it has the most influence to reach people through the Flame? Does the Shadow in the Flame's corrupting influence extend only to those near the font in Flamekeep, or does it spread to all worshipers of the Flame, from the Gash'kala to the Shulassakar?
The Shadow in the Flame is actually discussed in more detail (and provided with stats, for that matter) in the ECG.
Stats! I did not see that coming. I really can't wait for this book.
Another question!
Is the Shadow in the Flame's lack of real physical prison the reason why it has the most influence to reach people through the Flame? Does the Shadow in the Flame's corrupting influence extend only to those near the font in Flamekeep, or does it spread to all worshipers of the Flame, from the Gash'kala to the Shulassakar?
Good question. If I had to guess, based off of my reasoning, no, it does not. However I would imagine that it does posses corrupting influences over people near Flamekeep. This good, to some degree, explain the CotSF's worse deeds. Not to mention the corruptness of certain individuals in the Church.
Does the Shadow in the Flame's corrupting influence extend only to those near the font in Flamekeep, or does it spread to all worshipers of the Flame, from the Gash'kala to the Shulassakar?
In my opinion, it is something that anyone who listens to the Flame has to be cautious of. If anything, Flamekeep may be the SAFEST place, because you have the lingering influence of Tira Miron and the presence of the Keeper of the Flame, who is essentially there TO protect the faithful from the Shadow in the Flame.
Speaking to Lyran's point, IMO many of the church's worst deeds occurred far from Flamekeep. The Silver Purge was something initiated with the best of intentions. It was on the edge of the Towering Wood that things went downhill. And even today, the stronghold of the extremist Pure Flame sect is Aundair, not Thrane. You can find corrupt priests of all faiths scattered around the world. Yes, there's a very bad man in Flamekeep - but there's a lot of bad men in the world.
But it's certainly something you could explore if you wanted... especially if something happened to Jaela.
Speaking to Lyran's point, IMO many of the church's worst deeds occurred far from Flamekeep. The Silver Purge was something initiated with the best of intentions. It was on the edge of the Towering Wood that things went downhill. And even today, the stronghold of the extremist Pure Flame sect is Aundair, not Thrane. You can find corrupt priests of all faiths scattered around the world. Yes, there's a very bad man in Flamekeep - but there's a lot of bad men in the world.
A very good point you have there. What you say makes a lot of sense, but where exactly would the in the flame have the most influence? If I had to say, it would be Flamekeep. But like you said, the extremely overpowering power of the Flame in Flamekeep probably balances things out. Probably even more than being equal, the Flame is more powerful.
I wonder, does the Shadow have a voice?
I wonder, does the Shadow have a voice?
It has a rakshasa prakhutu, who is in fact statted out in the ECG. For that matter, it even has a human keeper - Melysse Miron, currently petrified in Dreadhold.
It has a rakshasa prakhutu, who is in fact statted out in the ECG. For that matter, it even has a human keeper - Melysse Miron, currently petrified in Dreadhold.
A statted prakhutu?! OMG.
So if enough Khyber Shards are mined how stable can a rajah's prison be in that area? Neat to think that something that has shaped EBs future (mining shards) is also the thing that could spell its doom! ;)
That's been covered already. The prisons aren't entirely physical otherwise the Lords of Dust would've mined out the knyber shards millenia ago if they had to. They need the correct confluence of events according to prophecy to free the overlords.
In my game, the insane can "read" the prophecy sometimes, so the Lords of Dust have agents stationed at insane asylums recording every rambling of every lunatic that sounds even remotely prophetic. The PCs investigated one of these and found that asylums acted as gateways to an entire parallel dimension that the Lords of Dust had created as a model of the real world, complete with simulacra of important people.
They used this model as a sort of computer similation to try to figure out how future events would unfold depending on how they manipulated current events. It was a kind of dark and gothic horror mirror of the real world (matching up with the Lords desires). It looked the same but subtle things would be "wrong" in a twisted way. The PCs were stuck in it for weeks before they figured out how to get out, and they learned to be careful of dark broom closets with strange numbers after that. :evillaugh
That is one of the DM creations that I am most proud of. The PCs got a good sense of of the scale of the conspiracy they were up against, and how long it had been running, when they found out that there were duplicates of almost every important person in Sharn. They also found out that sometimes it was the duplicate who was in the real world and the real person was trapped in the model. Additionally, they learned that the number they kept seeing pop up everywhere in the model (3647952) was the iteration number of the model program that the Lords of Dust were using.
Tzarevitch
That's been covered already. The prisons aren't entirely physical otherwise the Lords of Dust would've mined out the knyber shards millenia ago if they had to. They need the correct confluence of events according to prophecy to free the overlords.
This could, however, lead to an interesting situation where mining out a particular deposit of Khyber shards might be bad for both the Lords of Dust and the people of Eberron.
What if a Raja was (unkowiningly) bound in a large deposit of Khyber shards that is being economically exploited. As the shards are mined, the soul of the Raja within is dispersed and the shards have a corrupting effect on their owner and whatever project they are used for. (Bad for most people).
At the same time, while the Lords of Dust might be amused by the corruption this activity is causing, it is ultimately counterproductive. Dispersing the Raja's soul and essence in this manor will make it difficult to release him in the future.
The players might unknowingly end up working with agents of the LoD in their attempt to prevent fiendish corruption.
It has a rakshasa prakhutu, who is in fact statted out in the ECG. For that matter, it even has a human keeper - Melysse Miron, currently petrified in Dreadhold.
Ho. Ly. Crap. That's a bombshell to me.
Is Melysse Miron also talked about in the ECG to an extent? Mine's still on an Amazon.com truck... BLAST! This is forcing me to re-think the paragon and epic tiers of my current campaign right now, which is fantastic.
Is Melysse Miron also talked about in the ECG to an extent?
Unfortunately no, which is a real shame, as her release would be a good paragon level challenge for a Bel Shalor story arc. She's first mentioned in the Dreadhold dragon article (print, though Paizo may still be selling the pdfs), and I'm 95% sure she's also mentioned in Faiths of Eberron.
The Dreadhold article, which has a good two paragraphs on Melysse, is in Dragon 344, which apparently Paizo does indeed sell.
and I'm 95% sure she's also mentioned in Faiths of Eberron.
Pages 69-70, under the Tarnished.