Psionics and the Dragonmarked - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Elton74 Sep 28, 2008 7:43:32	Keith: you and your fellows did a very good job with Dragonmarked. But I have some questions. My cousin and I are concocting an Eberron Campaign together and he wants to play a psychic warrior or a shaper. I told him that psychic warriors work well with House Denieth and Shapers work well with House Cannith. Having read Dragonmarked, I don't see any thing to go on with psi characters who might carry dragonmarks. What is the houses' relationship to their psionic scions?
#2 fabius_maximus Sep 28, 2008 9:18:09	I'd say they are treated as just another resource valuable to the House. The Houses tend to be very pragmatic, and if a set of special abilities can gain them income, they'll exploit it.
#3 Elton74 Sep 28, 2008 9:56:17	I'd say they are treated as just another resource valuable to the House. The Houses tend to be very pragmatic, and if a set of special abilities can gain them income, they'll exploit it. Not quite the answer I was looking for. I need little more detail than that. ;)
#4 rekko Sep 28, 2008 10:42:15	On Khorvaire, the psionic power source is relatively uncommon. With the everyday magic, and magic is everywhere, and magic as technology, I'd say that psionic characters are treated like arcane characters and to some degree divine characters. As such, Psions would be treated like the Wizards, Psychic Warriors like Spellswords, Paladins and Warlords maybe, Soulknifes I'd go with Ranger or Rogue, heck even Fighter, and Wilder would be treated like Sorcerers and Warlocks. As such, the many Houses make use of each of the classes in its own way. Orien would use Spellswords and Warlocks to enhance their teleportation and mobility powers of their Mark of Passage. As such, Psychic Warriors and Nomads would fit the Houses needs. Deneith, could also make good use of Spellswords and Warlocks, but in a differents way. The Spellswords would choose the defensive build while the Warlock could be a mind-affecting soldier stricking fear in its opponents or charming them. In this sense, a Telepath and the Psychic Warrior can make a great defender. spoilers from S:CoT I know that the leaders of the Sharn section of House Deneith have been mind-seeded by quori/inspired. As such, maybe the psionic power source will have a higher popularity among Sharn Deneiths.
#5 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 13:13:07	You might consider spoiler-blocking the information from Sharn, Rekko. With that said, I think Rekko has hit on the main point. Psionics simply aren't common enough in Khorvaire for the houses to have a special policy for psionic scions. They will be seen as useful tools, but likely treated the same way as a non-psionic character who fills a similar role. The same would be true for true-namers, shadow-wielders, or other characters that are simply unfamiliar to most people in Khorvaire and exist in minimal numbers. It's simply a case of "You're unusual, what can you do for us?" as opposed to "We've developed a specific policy for your case." With that said, there are houses that are specifically interested in exploring psionics. Rekko's mentioned a secret program. However, Tasker's Dream in House Sivis is described as having a corps of psions based around their research into telepathy. You could DECIDE that any other house has done the same; House Orien could seek to explore psionic teleportation. But by default, psionics are largely unknown.
#6 Elton74 Sep 28, 2008 15:16:56	As such, Psions would be treated like the Wizards, Psychic Warriors like Spellswords, Paladins and Warlords maybe, Soulknifes I'd go with Ranger or Rogue, heck even Fighter, and Wilder would be treated like Sorcerers and Warlocks. Rekko Next time I post an Eberron question, I will state that it pertains to D&D 3.5. This is simply because my gaming group and I have chosen not to buy D&D 4 simply because we believe it's the last straw for us.
#7 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 16:05:34	Next time I post an Eberron question, I will state that it pertains to D&D 3.5. I assumed that you were talking about 3.5. The point's still valid. Unless you're positing that the house is placing significant resources into psionic research - as is the case with Tasker's Dream in Sivis - the psionic heir will simply be an oddity, like a truenamer, a shugenja, a hexblade, or any other uncommon class drawing on an unfamiliar supernatural tradition. As a curiousity, he may have an easier time drawing the attention of house leaders... or conversely, he may have a harder time getting entrusted with important missions, because they find his unusual path to be suspect and fear that it may be unreliable in the long term. There's no absolute right or wrong, because the psionic traditions simply aren't well-established in the houses or Khorvaire as a whole.
#8 rekko Sep 28, 2008 17:25:34	Is Tasker's Dream in Dragonmarked? If so, I think I missed/forgot that part. Rekko
#9 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 17:46:46	Is Tasker's Dream in Dragonmarked? Top of page 75. The description was trimmed a little from what I originally wrote, but the point is that House Sivis is actively exploring the potential of psionics, whereas most of the houses think of it as just one more obscure supernatural path - again, on par with truenamers or shadow magic. They'll use scions with these paths if they come along, but they aren't a major focus of the houses. Of course, as always, YOU could change that. You could decide that Phiarlan and Thuranni are the seat of Shadow Magic in Eberron, and have great masters of this form of magic hidden within their house. Personally, I've never used Shadow Magic, so I'm not doing this. But it's a viable route to take if you like shadow magic. Likewise, you could choose to have Orien be determined to create a corps of nomads, and make that a huge part of the house's flavor. But the default of the setting is that psionics are all but unknown in Khorvaire; they're the weird magic of the kalashtar (and most people don't even understand that psionic abilities AREN'T just a form of arcane magic). (Of course, bear in mind that even in Sivis, Tasker's Dream is a small think tank and working on other things as well - it's not like psionics is a major focus for Sivis, but they do have an active program exploring its potential, which is more than most of the houses can say.)
#10 Elton74 Sep 28, 2008 18:30:23	So, as far as official opinion, psionics is strange in Khorvaire and not really exploited. But . . . the field is wide open for interpretation. I.e., if a scion is psionically gifted he would be seen as strange or worse: demon possessed, when he is growing up. Just playing around with some ideas.
#11 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 18:39:55	So, as far as official opinion, psionics is strange in Khorvaire and not really exploited. But . . . the field is wide open for interpretation. Correct. Someone at the Arcane Congress or Arcanix (or Tasker's Dream) understands what psionics are about, but the average person on the street will likely assume it's some other form of magic or that it's connected to the kalashtar. As for how the psionic character would be treated growing up, I'd expect a lot to be based on the nature of his powers and how he acquires them. The wilder whose powers manifest in a moment of rage (killing an unfaithful lover in the process) might be seen as touched by the Fury, and in fact the Cults of the Dragon Below article in Dragon notes that such spontaneous wilders are a solid choice to appear among the cults, serving as channels for the wild madness of Xoriat. On the other hand, an heir who travels to Adar, and returns practicing a strange discipline - yet one that people still recognize as having an internal logic and being the result of effort and study - would likely be seen (within the house) as simply having a talent for foreign magic. Again, truenamers, (3.5e) warlocks, shugenja, shadow magic, binders, hexblades... there's no shortage of odd paths out there. So the spontaneous psion - especially the wilder - would be the most likely to get a negative reaction. The student of an unusual tradition would probably just be seen in the same way as a fighter who chooses to use an exotic Adaran weapon - it's strange and draws attention, but not necessarily bad. (And as noted, in Sivis or a house enclave compromised by the Dreaming Dark, psionic talent might be actively encouraged.)
#12 Elton74 Sep 28, 2008 19:54:32	So given that the new Dragonmarked feats (ie. the Dragonmark feats in Dragonmarked) are related to a Supernatural ability (ie. a Dragonmark) than they wouldn't be affected by psionics or affect psionics themselves?
#13 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 21:29:30	So given that the new Dragonmarked feats (ie. the Dragonmark feats in Dragonmarked) are related to a Supernatural ability (ie. a Dragonmark) than they wouldn't be affected by psionics or affect psionics themselves? I don't understand the question. Could you point to a specific feat you're curious about? Certainly, psionic ability would not take the place of a prerequisite for a dragonmarked feat; dragonmarks are not innately connected to psionics. So a psychic warrior can't take Dragonmark Battlestrike unless he has a dragonmark. Dragonmark Summoner clearly states that it is connected to use of summoning spells and requires Spell Focus (Conjuration). The question is whether you could make a similar feat that's tied to psionics. Speaking purely personally, my answer would be no. By default, the dragons of Eberron are creatures of primal magic... and it's worth noting that the people of Sarlona never developed dragonmarks. I don't think dragonmarks are innately OPPOSED to psionic abilities (as shown by Tasker's Dream and the compromised enclave in Sharn), but I also don't see them being as likely to empower psionic abilities. IMO (and this is ONLY my opinion), Psionic power tends to flow from Dal Quor or Xoriat, focused through the lens of the mortal mind - while arcane and divine energies are ambient power flowing from Siberys and Khyber. So I wouldn't create psi-enhancing dragonmark feats, because I don't see a strong metaphysical connection between the two. But I also don't see the sky falling if you decide to do it.
#14 Twiggly_the_Gnome Sep 28, 2008 21:44:45	(Of course, bear in mind that even in Sivis, Tasker's Dream is a small think tank and working on other things as well - it's not like psionics is a major focus for Sivis, but they do have an active program exploring its potential, which is more than most of the houses can say.) My impression of Tasker's Dream was that they are sort of like Peter, Ray and Egon at the beginning of Ghostbusters. Brilliant eccentrics, always on the verge of having their operation shut down by the powers that be. :coolcthul
#15 Elton74 Sep 28, 2008 23:26:00	I don't understand the question. Could you point to a specific feat you're curious about? Alright. I just wanted to see where that is clear. Apparently, some Dragonmarked feats affect Eldritch blasts. Some do other things. I wanted to see if a Dragonmark could interact with psionics in someway. I.e. a Mark of Making interacts with a metacreativity power. But thank you for answering my question, Keith.
#16 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 23:33:36	I wanted to see if a Dragonmark could interact with psionics in someway. To the best of my knowledge, there's no existing feat that does. You could certainly create one that did. I personally wouldn't in my campaign, because of my views on the interaction between the two forces; however, I wouldn't send sharaat'khesh to your house to try and stop you from doing it, especially if you're trying to run a psi-heavy campaign. Presumably, Tasker's Dream is exploring exactly this sort of thing, and attempting to find ways to use psionics to enhance the powers of their mark... on the other hand, my thought is that they've been doing this for a while with limited (if any) success. A Sivis telepath is still a strange oddity, not a replacement for the speaking stone.
#17 Hellcow Sep 28, 2008 23:52:08	One thing I'll note is that in my personal campaign, I try to emphasize the fact that the modern forms of artifice, arcane magic, and magic items of all types (including dragonmarked focus items) are the result of centuries of research and development. Thirty years ago, there were no warforged or airships. House Orien's first major innovation was coaches that could travel at increased speed along prepared trade roads; the lightning rail came along much later. Thus, in MY game, I'm unlikely to have the house doing much with psionics because they simply don't understand them well enough. They don't know HOW to create a telepathic amplifier or a focus item that somehow enhances psionic teleportation. This is exactly what Tasker's Dream is working on... but it's just one of the projects they're exploring, and as Twiggly suggests, I'm sure there are people saying "And why are we pouring platinum into this damn fool telepathy fetish of yours when we could be focusing on proven arcane sending?" Essentially, I feel that even if the houses develop an interest in psionics, it's going to take time for them to produce a serious breakthrough. However, if you're positing a Khorvaire where psionics have always had a stronger role, and suggesting that the houses have been studying them for a while, that would be different. Likewise, if you're taking the wilder who develops his powers spontaneously and you want to make up a crazy feat for him, well, the Prophecy unfolds in mysterious ways.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Elton74

Sep 28, 2008 7:43:32

Keith:
you and your fellows did a very good job with Dragonmarked. But I have some questions. My cousin and I are concocting an Eberron Campaign together and he wants to play a psychic warrior or a shaper. I told him that psychic warriors work well with House Denieth and Shapers work well with House Cannith.

Having read Dragonmarked, I don't see any thing to go on with psi characters who might carry dragonmarks. What is the houses' relationship to their psionic scions?

fabius_maximus

Sep 28, 2008 9:18:09

I'd say they are treated as just another resource valuable to the House. The Houses tend to be very pragmatic, and if a set of special abilities can gain them income, they'll exploit it.

Elton74

Sep 28, 2008 9:56:17

I'd say they are treated as just another resource valuable to the House. The Houses tend to be very pragmatic, and if a set of special abilities can gain them income, they'll exploit it.

Not quite the answer I was looking for. I need little more detail than that. ;)

rekko

Sep 28, 2008 10:42:15

On Khorvaire, the psionic power source is relatively uncommon. With the everyday magic, and magic is everywhere, and magic as technology, I'd say that psionic characters are treated like arcane characters and to some degree divine characters.

As such, Psions would be treated like the Wizards, Psychic Warriors like Spellswords, Paladins and Warlords maybe, Soulknifes I'd go with Ranger or Rogue, heck even Fighter, and Wilder would be treated like Sorcerers and Warlocks.

As such, the many Houses make use of each of the classes in its own way. Orien would use Spellswords and Warlocks to enhance their teleportation and mobility powers of their Mark of Passage. As such, Psychic Warriors and Nomads would fit the Houses needs. Deneith, could also make good use of Spellswords and Warlocks, but in a differents way. The Spellswords would choose the defensive build while the Warlock could be a mind-affecting soldier stricking fear in its opponents or charming them. In this sense, a Telepath and the Psychic Warrior can make a great defender.

spoilers from S:CoT

I know that the leaders of the Sharn section of House Deneith have been mind-seeded by quori/inspired. As such, maybe the psionic power source will have a higher popularity among Sharn Deneiths.

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 13:13:07

You might consider spoiler-blocking the information from Sharn, Rekko.

With that said, I think Rekko has hit on the main point. Psionics simply aren't common enough in Khorvaire for the houses to have a special policy for psionic scions. They will be seen as useful tools, but likely treated the same way as a non-psionic character who fills a similar role. The same would be true for true-namers, shadow-wielders, or other characters that are simply unfamiliar to most people in Khorvaire and exist in minimal numbers. It's simply a case of "You're unusual, what can you do for us?" as opposed to "We've developed a specific policy for your case."

With that said, there are houses that are specifically interested in exploring psionics. Rekko's mentioned a secret program. However, Tasker's Dream in House Sivis is described as having a corps of psions based around their research into telepathy. You could DECIDE that any other house has done the same; House Orien could seek to explore psionic teleportation. But by default, psionics are largely unknown.

Elton74

Sep 28, 2008 15:16:56

As such, Psions would be treated like the Wizards, Psychic Warriors like Spellswords, Paladins and Warlords maybe, Soulknifes I'd go with Ranger or Rogue, heck even Fighter, and Wilder would be treated like Sorcerers and Warlocks.

Rekko

Next time I post an Eberron question, I will state that it pertains to D&D 3.5. This is simply because my gaming group and I have chosen not to buy D&D 4 simply because we believe it's the last straw for us.

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 16:05:34

Next time I post an Eberron question, I will state that it pertains to D&D 3.5.

I assumed that you were talking about 3.5. The point's still valid. Unless you're positing that the house is placing significant resources into psionic research - as is the case with Tasker's Dream in Sivis - the psionic heir will simply be an oddity, like a truenamer, a shugenja, a hexblade, or any other uncommon class drawing on an unfamiliar supernatural tradition. As a curiousity, he may have an easier time drawing the attention of house leaders... or conversely, he may have a harder time getting entrusted with important missions, because they find his unusual path to be suspect and fear that it may be unreliable in the long term. There's no absolute right or wrong, because the psionic traditions simply aren't well-established in the houses or Khorvaire as a whole.

rekko

Sep 28, 2008 17:25:34

Is Tasker's Dream in Dragonmarked? If so, I think I missed/forgot that part.

Rekko

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 17:46:46

Is Tasker's Dream in Dragonmarked?

Top of page 75. The description was trimmed a little from what I originally wrote, but the point is that House Sivis is actively exploring the potential of psionics, whereas most of the houses think of it as just one more obscure supernatural path - again, on par with truenamers or shadow magic. They'll use scions with these paths if they come along, but they aren't a major focus of the houses.

Of course, as always, YOU could change that. You could decide that Phiarlan and Thuranni are the seat of Shadow Magic in Eberron, and have great masters of this form of magic hidden within their house. Personally, I've never used Shadow Magic, so I'm not doing this. But it's a viable route to take if you like shadow magic. Likewise, you could choose to have Orien be determined to create a corps of nomads, and make that a huge part of the house's flavor. But the default of the setting is that psionics are all but unknown in Khorvaire; they're the weird magic of the kalashtar (and most people don't even understand that psionic abilities AREN'T just a form of arcane magic).

(Of course, bear in mind that even in Sivis, Tasker's Dream is a small think tank and working on other things as well - it's not like psionics is a major focus for Sivis, but they do have an active program exploring its potential, which is more than most of the houses can say.)

#10

Elton74

Sep 28, 2008 18:30:23

So, as far as official opinion, psionics is strange in Khorvaire and not really exploited. But . . . the field is wide open for interpretation. I.e., if a scion is psionically gifted he would be seen as strange or worse: demon possessed, when he is growing up.

Just playing around with some ideas.

#11

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 18:39:55

So, as far as official opinion, psionics is strange in Khorvaire and not really exploited. But . . . the field is wide open for interpretation.

Correct. Someone at the Arcane Congress or Arcanix (or Tasker's Dream) understands what psionics are about, but the average person on the street will likely assume it's some other form of magic or that it's connected to the kalashtar.

As for how the psionic character would be treated growing up, I'd expect a lot to be based on the nature of his powers and how he acquires them. The wilder whose powers manifest in a moment of rage (killing an unfaithful lover in the process) might be seen as touched by the Fury, and in fact the Cults of the Dragon Below article in Dragon notes that such spontaneous wilders are a solid choice to appear among the cults, serving as channels for the wild madness of Xoriat.

On the other hand, an heir who travels to Adar, and returns practicing a strange discipline - yet one that people still recognize as having an internal logic and being the result of effort and study - would likely be seen (within the house) as simply having a talent for foreign magic. Again, truenamers, (3.5e) warlocks, shugenja, shadow magic, binders, hexblades... there's no shortage of odd paths out there.

So the spontaneous psion - especially the wilder - would be the most likely to get a negative reaction. The student of an unusual tradition would probably just be seen in the same way as a fighter who chooses to use an exotic Adaran weapon - it's strange and draws attention, but not necessarily bad.

(And as noted, in Sivis or a house enclave compromised by the Dreaming Dark, psionic talent might be actively encouraged.)

#12

Elton74

Sep 28, 2008 19:54:32

So given that the new Dragonmarked feats (ie. the Dragonmark feats in Dragonmarked) are related to a Supernatural ability (ie. a Dragonmark) than they wouldn't be affected by psionics or affect psionics themselves?

#13

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 21:29:30

So given that the new Dragonmarked feats (ie. the Dragonmark feats in Dragonmarked) are related to a Supernatural ability (ie. a Dragonmark) than they wouldn't be affected by psionics or affect psionics themselves?

I don't understand the question. Could you point to a specific feat you're curious about? Certainly, psionic ability would not take the place of a prerequisite for a dragonmarked feat; dragonmarks are not innately connected to psionics. So a psychic warrior can't take Dragonmark Battlestrike unless he has a dragonmark. Dragonmark Summoner clearly states that it is connected to use of summoning spells and requires Spell Focus (Conjuration). The question is whether you could make a similar feat that's tied to psionics.

Speaking purely personally, my answer would be no. By default, the dragons of Eberron are creatures of primal magic... and it's worth noting that the people of Sarlona never developed dragonmarks. I don't think dragonmarks are innately OPPOSED to psionic abilities (as shown by Tasker's Dream and the compromised enclave in Sharn), but I also don't see them being as likely to empower psionic abilities. IMO (and this is ONLY my opinion), Psionic power tends to flow from Dal Quor or Xoriat, focused through the lens of the mortal mind - while arcane and divine energies are ambient power flowing from Siberys and Khyber.

So *I* wouldn't create psi-enhancing dragonmark feats, because I don't see a strong metaphysical connection between the two. But I also don't see the sky falling if you decide to do it.

#14

Twiggly_the_Gnome

Sep 28, 2008 21:44:45

(Of course, bear in mind that even in Sivis, Tasker's Dream is a small think tank and working on other things as well - it's not like psionics is a major focus for Sivis, but they do have an active program exploring its potential, which is more than most of the houses can say.)

My impression of Tasker's Dream was that they are sort of like Peter, Ray and Egon at the beginning of Ghostbusters. Brilliant eccentrics, always on the verge of having their operation shut down by the powers that be. :coolcthul

#15

Elton74

Sep 28, 2008 23:26:00

I don't understand the question. Could you point to a specific feat you're curious about?

Alright. I just wanted to see where that is clear. Apparently, some Dragonmarked feats affect Eldritch blasts. Some do other things. I wanted to see if a Dragonmark could interact with psionics in someway.

I.e. a Mark of Making interacts with a metacreativity power. But thank you for answering my question, Keith.

#16

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 23:33:36

I wanted to see if a Dragonmark could interact with psionics in someway.

To the best of my knowledge, there's no existing feat that does. You could certainly create one that did. I personally wouldn't in my campaign, because of my views on the interaction between the two forces; however, I wouldn't send sharaat'khesh to your house to try and stop you from doing it, especially if you're trying to run a psi-heavy campaign. Presumably, Tasker's Dream is exploring exactly this sort of thing, and attempting to find ways to use psionics to enhance the powers of their mark... on the other hand, my thought is that they've been doing this for a while with limited (if any) success. A Sivis telepath is still a strange oddity, not a replacement for the speaking stone.

#17

Hellcow

Sep 28, 2008 23:52:08

One thing I'll note is that in my personal campaign, I try to emphasize the fact that the modern forms of artifice, arcane magic, and magic items of all types (including dragonmarked focus items) are the result of centuries of research and development. Thirty years ago, there were no warforged or airships. House Orien's first major innovation was coaches that could travel at increased speed along prepared trade roads; the lightning rail came along much later.

Thus, in MY game, I'm unlikely to have the house doing much with psionics because they simply don't understand them well enough. They don't know HOW to create a telepathic amplifier or a focus item that somehow enhances psionic teleportation. This is exactly what Tasker's Dream is working on... but it's just one of the projects they're exploring, and as Twiggly suggests, I'm sure there are people saying "And why are we pouring platinum into this damn fool telepathy fetish of yours when we could be focusing on proven arcane sending?" Essentially, I feel that even if the houses develop an interest in psionics, it's going to take time for them to produce a serious breakthrough.

However, if you're positing a Khorvaire where psionics have always had a stronger role, and suggesting that the houses have been studying them for a while, that would be different. Likewise, if you're taking the wilder who develops his powers spontaneously and you want to make up a crazy feat for him, well, the Prophecy unfolds in mysterious ways.