So in theory could I make my own philosophy to follow?
For example, could I create something called the Path of Light and Strength and Benevolence, which focuses on the sun, light, inner strength and goodness for its own sake (NG)...and claim myself a follower and receive spells? Domains such as Sun and Good?
Would that be feasable?
The more complex one is addressed in this thread.
I'm not sure how much it features in the official texts, but Keith Baker has frequently suggested that the faithful are more likely to be granted divine spells if they worship in a certain way.
It's been noted through history that different cultures with no previous contact have developed gods similar to the gods of the host, and even modern clerics can learn something from studying foreign gods.
It's left open whether this means the gods exist objectively, if clerics draw on the collective unconcious understanding of these divine archetypes or if the concepts keep popping up for another reason, but you're more likely to get spells if you worship the Host or another established religion than if you try to start one in your own back garden.
(Even then, Vassals of the Soverign Host are likely to believe you are unconciously drawing on the power of one of the soverigns, shaped through your own perceptions.)
In EB planar beings don't even 100% know if the gods exist because the gods do not exist on the Planes. Plus you can be evil and worship good gods in EB and still be a cleric of that god. Plus Pnatheons are worshipped in EB in some cases not just one god.
Yes, IIRC you can just worship the gods as a group, and then pretty much pick any two domains you want.
However, it seems that it's discouraged, as that tends to have people choosing domains that make no sense together.
However, it seems that it's discouraged, as that tends to have people choosing domains that make no sense together.
Discouraged? How? I mean, admittedly, if "worshipping the gods as a group" means worshipping the Sovereign Host + Dark Six as a group, and picking this domain from the Devourer, and that domain from Boldrei, I suppose that's discouraged by the SH/DS division, but worshipping the Sovereign Host or Dark Six as a whole certainly isn't: it's how ECS suggests the Sovereign Host -- the most commonly followed religion in Eberron -- is most commonly worshipped. People who only worship Aureon (say) exist, but they're not supposed to be typical.
Of course, there are limits on the domains offered by the SH/DS. For instance, no one in the Sovereign Host offers the Planning domain -- only the Undying Court offers that. No established religions in Eberron offer the Kobold domain either. Still, the Sovereign Host offers a pretty broad range of domains: Air, Animal, Artifice, Chaos, Celerity, Charm, Commerce, Community, Competition, Creation, Earth, Family, Feast, Fire, Force, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Life, Luck, Magic, Metal, Mind, Oracle, Pact, Plant, Pride, Protection, Retribution, Spell, Strength, Sun, Trade, Travel, War, Warforged, Wealth, and Weather. The Dark Six, likewise: Artifice, Celerity, Chaos, Charm, Cold, Creation, Darkness, Death, Decay, Destruction, Domination, Evil, Greed, Hatred, Hunger, Illusion, Liberation, Madness, Magic, Mind, Ocean, Pact, Passion, Pestilence, Shadow, Travel, Trickery, War, Water, Weather, and Wrath.
Discouraged? How? I mean, admittedly, if "worshipping the gods as a group" means worshipping the Sovereign Host + Dark Six as a group, and picking this domain from the Devourer, and that domain from Boldrei, I suppose that's discouraged by the SH/DS division, but worshipping the Sovereign Host or Dark Six as a whole certainly isn't: it's how ECS suggests the Sovereign Host -- the most commonly followed religion in Eberron -- is most commonly worshipped. People who only worship Aureon (say) exist, but they're not supposed to be typical.
Of course, there are limits on the domains offered by the SH/DS. For instance, no one in the Sovereign Host offers the Planning domain -- only the Undying Court offers that. No established religions in Eberron offer the Kobold domain either. Still, the Sovereign Host offers a pretty broad range of domains: Air, Animal, Artifice, Chaos, Celerity, Charm, Commerce, Community, Competition, Creation, Earth, Family, Feast, Fire, Force, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Life, Luck, Magic, Metal, Mind, Oracle, Pact, Plant, Pride, Protection, Retribution, Spell, Strength, Sun, Trade, Travel, War, Warforged, Wealth, and Weather. The Dark Six, likewise: Artifice, Celerity, Chaos, Charm, Cold, Creation, Darkness, Death, Decay, Destruction, Domination, Evil, Greed, Hatred, Hunger, Illusion, Liberation, Madness, Magic, Mind, Ocean, Pact, Passion, Pestilence, Shadow, Travel, Trickery, War, Water, Weather, and Wrath.
I think what I was trying to get across is that there should be a reason for those two domains to be chosen, not just picked because of the spells or domain power.
I think what I was trying to get across is that there should be a reason for those two domains to be chosen, not just picked because of the spells or domain power.
I think thats rather a given in any situation. I mean, I assume everybody else actually requires some reason for the mechanics the player picks, right? As in, they don't let the beer swilling ***** mongering bling wearing playah character just up and take Vow of Poverty because the benefits are cool, right?
I think thats rather a given in any situation. I mean, I assume everybody else actually requires some reason for the mechanics the player picks, right? As in, they don't let the beer swilling ***** mongering bling wearing playah character just up and take Vow of Poverty because the benefits are cool, right?
Well, in MY screwed-up game, they would be allowed to as long as they abided (?) by its requirements.
1.) It seems like a cop out and means being a corrupt Cleric can be both rediculously difficult from an rping side, and mechaniclly reduntent. It also gets a bit confussing on exactly what alignment spells you do have access to sometimes.
2.) Also means that a corrupt cleric is that much easier to spot. Even an intellegent one. In fact, especially an intellegent one, who can not cast say Protection from Evil.
I have a question thats a bit off topic, but in the same area here. Do clerics (and similar divine casters except Pali's and Blk Gs.) still have to stick with alignment restrictions for spells? I'd think no, for two main reasons, but would like to know what others thought.
1.) It seems like a cop out and means being a corrupt Cleric can be both rediculously difficult from an rping side, and mechaniclly reduntent. It also gets a bit confussing on exactly what alignment spells you do have access to sometimes.
2.) Also means that a corrupt cleric is that much easier to spot. Even an intellegent one. In fact, especially an intellegent one, who can not cast say Protection from Evil.
There are no alignment restrictions on cleric spells. See page 35 of the Eberron Campaign Setting. One needn't even really be a "corrupt cleric" in the normal sense to cast opposite-descriptor spells (although that's the most likely scenario). An LN cleric of Aureon who is a faced with an aggressive formian could cast protection from law just fine.
A somewhat more ambiguous question is whether clerics with their alignment and their religion's alignment on opposite sides of the good-evil spectrum channel energy (i.e. cure/turn or inflict/rebuke) as their own alignment, or their religion's: i.e., if you're an evil cleric of the Undying Court, do you rebuke undead and spontaneously cast inflict spells, or do you turn undead and spontaneously cast cure spells?
It seems that the RAW here, which Eberron hasn't overwritten, is that cleric alignment takes precedence here: i.e., the evil cleric of the Undying Court casts inflict spells spontaneously and rebukes undead. However, many Eberron players, including Keith Baker (IIRC), rule it the other way.
...
A somewhat more ambiguous question is whether clerics with their alignment and their religion's alignment on opposite sides of the good-evil spectrum channel energy (i.e. cure/turn or inflict/rebuke) as their own alignment, or their religion's: i.e., if you're an evil cleric of the Undying Court, do you rebuke undead and spontaneously cast inflict spells, or do you turn undead and spontaneously cast cure spells?
It seems that the RAW here, which Eberron hasn't overwritten, is that cleric alignment takes precedence here: i.e., the evil cleric of the Undying Court casts inflict spells spontaneously and rebukes undead. However, many Eberron players, including Keith Baker (IIRC), rule it the other way.
The second way also makes the most sense.
A somewhat more ambiguous question is whether clerics with their alignment and their religion's alignment on opposite sides of the good-evil spectrum channel energy (i.e. cure/turn or inflict/rebuke) as their own alignment, or their religion's: i.e., if you're an evil cleric of the Undying Court, do you rebuke undead and spontaneously cast inflict spells, or do you turn undead and spontaneously cast cure spells?
Don't know without doing some research on it (and I'm at work at the moment, so no go on that idea), but if there is an issue, I would likely houserule it uses the same precident as a true neutral cleric. IE, you pick which side you want, and thats the one you have from then on.
That said, I would expect the vast majority to pick whatever is in line with their religion, simply to avoid drawing undue attention to themselves if nothing else.
By raw, it implies that druids are somehow less prone to corruption of their ideals than clerics, which is blatantly false. There is a cannon sect of Gatekeepers that embraces the use of symbiotic abberations and even becoming abberations just to better understand their enemy (See Impure Prince, detailed in Magic of Eberron).
Said Gatekeepers do not loose access to druid casting or the benefits of the Gatekeeper Initiate feat, should they have it.
He casts healing spells and turns undead. Until one day he sees the village of innocents laid to waste by his actions. Watching the fires consume houses and people he begins to wonder if maybe someone else is granting his spells. Right then he realizes he needs to make a choice: vengeance or virtuousness. He hears the call of the Six (literally or figuratively) and follows them into the dark. From then on he's a follower of the Six in the garb of a priest of the Host, he casts inflict spells and rebukes undead.
That's how I see that sort of thing anyway.
Druids, on the other hand, don't lie to them selfs in the same way. They are who they are and their magic flows from that. A good druid couldn't cast an evil spell any more than he could kick a baby deer.
A cleric of the Silver Flame might be the nicest guy in the world but if he suspects supernatural evil is hiding in a village and has exausted all other options, he might stoop to some evil spells to scare the populace into compliance, for the greater good of freeing them from the fiendish menance hiding among them. He's not necessarily going against this faith, he's ultimately protecting these people, but he has the option to use any spell available to him. His alignment doesn't even have to change, unless he does it frequently and allows the concept of tyranny to be commonplace in his interpretation of the relgion. Otherwise, he was just in an extreme position and used the only options available to him after he exhausted all others.
And a druid can't do that because..... he doesn't lie to himself? Who says the cleric is lying to himself? He probably knows damn well he's casting evil spells, but he's decided on the lesser of two evils. That's the entire point of removing the restriction from clerics. To allow for that kind of choice.
I'm sorry, it's more likely that the guys writing the ECS just forgot that Druids also had the Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells entry.
Druids have other things to worry about. Any alignment can be justified in nature and an evil druid doesn't need to fool himself into thinking that doing awful things is good nor reconcile those deeds with his beliefs. As a good person doing bad things he might have some personal issues, but as a druid he's just doing what he thinks needs done. Does that make any more sense?
1) A corrupt cleric is one whose alignment deviates from the alignment of that cleric's religion, as listed in ECS.
2) A corrupt cleric is a cleric who seeks to undermine the ethics and religion that the cleric claims to follow.
3) A corrupt cleric is a cleric who improperly uses a position of power for personal gain. (I don't see many people embracing this definition, but it's the most standard definition of corruption in real life -- i.e., a corrupt police officer, etc.)
If we're talking about definition 1), there's no reason a Silver Flame cleric might not start out evil, or a Path of Light cleric start out chaotic, or what have you. He still starts out as being an earnest true believer in the Silver Flame and all of its tenets -- and he continues to be an earnest true believer in the Silver Flame and all its tenets so long as he remains a true cleric -- but none of that precludes evil alignment.
In fact, it could well be that some clerics start off a bit corrupt, but then become more aligned with their faith with experience. The cleric of the Blood of Vol starts off as a corrupt, neutral good cleric when he's a young guy who's kind of ignorant of the real faith, then as he works his way through the Blood of Vol hierarchy, he becomes more in line with the alignment of the faith, become more lawful and more evil. The Aundairan cleric of the Silver Flame starts off as a lawful evil bigot who wants to kill all of the shifters, but as he talks to his fellow clergy, and others in the Flame hierarchy, they gradually bring him over to the side of compassion and justice and get him to let go of his hate.
Moreover, there are some religions where "corruption," if you define corruption as deviation from the alignment of the religion listed in ECS, is actually the norm. Kalashtar followers of the Path of Light are more likely to be LG than LN. Aereni followers of the Undying Court are more likely to be N or LN than NG.
If we're talking about definition 2), well, then we're talking about someone who pretends to be a cleric of a putative faith, but actually isn't. Either their real faith -- whatever powers their divine spells -- is in something else, or they have some class other than cleric, like chameleon or ur-priest, that allows them to fake it. 1) and 2), of course, are not mutually exclusive: you could have an NE cleric of the Sovereign Host who wants to infiltrate and undermine the Church of the Silver Flame because he wants the SH to have religious hegemony over Khorvaire. In that case, she's both trying to undermine the religion she claims to follow (the Silver Flame), and she deviates from the alignment of the religion she actually does have faith in.
If we're talking about definition 3), then I suppose that's common enough. Once again, of course, not exclusive with the others.
Druids have other things to worry about. Any alignment can be justified in nature and an evil druid doesn't need to fool himself into thinking that doing awful things is good nor reconcile those deeds with his beliefs. As a good person doing bad things he might have some personal issues, but as a druid he's just doing what he thinks needs done. Does that make any more sense?
So? If an LN or NE druid wants to summon a unicorn, why should the honest knowledge that he's lawful or evil prevent him from doing so? The way you're saying it, it sounds like the cleric of the Path of Light who wants to summon a Babau tells herself a story along the lines of "Okay. Babaus are foul creatures who bring the sort of chaos and destruction which keeps Il-Lashtavar in power and prevents the turning of the age, but I really need this Babau, and it's ultimately in service of fighting the Inspired, so it's okay," while an LN druid can't summon a unicorn because he says "I'm a lawful, orderly type. I have no delusions otherwise, and my character is perfectly compatible with nature. Therefore, I'd never summon a chaotic creature like a unicorn, because it would go against my character. No exceptions." Frankly, the druid's thought process -- at least if I'm imagining it correctly -- is weird, and certainly seem to have nothing to do with nature being compatible with all alignments. The idea seems to be "any alignment is acceptable to druids. Therefore, whatever alignment they happen to be, they cling to it fanatically and would never cast spells contrary ot it." At least, that's the only way I see the alignment restrictions making sense with regard to your quote.
Now, I know Eberron is very lax on the notion of alignment, but in my view, I don't see a person who doesn't very closely match the religion's alignment being able to connect with the magic of the faith. At best I see a chaotic evil person studying to become a cleric of the Flame ending up as an expert with a bunch of ranks in Knowledge: religion. But a LG person who can already cast spells and takes a turn down the wrong path might take his ability to still cast spells as a sign of his gods' continued approval.
There are some special cases of course. Many, if not most, of the followers of the Blood have bought into the idea and facade that Vol has constructed. Priests of the Blood teach that the gods, all of them, are evil beings that toy with the lives of mortals and then punishes them all equally after death. Further, at it's heart, the warship of the Blood is the warship of one's own divinity. I could see a LG cleric of the Blood emerging from the flock and even leading a congregation for years before someone higher up decides to clue him in to the "truth". In my view this cleric then has his own crisis of faith and chooses a path. Either he accepts the new truth and begins acting directly as Vol's hand or the revelation convinces him that the church has been corrupted.
The Host and the Flame are, in my view, very dogmatic religions which require not just absolute faith in the gods but spiritual harmony in order to touch the magic of faith, whatever the true source is.
Other faiths, such as the Blood of Vol, the Path of Light, and maybe the Undieing Court, are faiths based on personal enlightenment and the quest for transfiguration of the soul through personal truths. This second kind I don't believe should have any alignment restrictions at all since each believer is seeking their own personal truth.
The Sovereign Host, by contrast, seems to be extremely broad and ecumenical, with little in the way of dogma. There are dozens of little sects with their own interpretations, little in the way of central authority, and the Sovereign Host assimilates every little religious tradition from some isolated mountain tribe into its own faith if it gets to them.
Although I suppose you're probablyright about the Silver Flame, Blood of Vol, and Path of Light.
Paladins and Druids are quite different - Paladins are held to a higher mystical standard (proof that at least one higher power exists?) and Druids practice a ritualistic style of dragon magic that calls upon the powers of the pregenitor, Eberron. And Rangers....Rangers get their magical powers because 3e says so. ;)
On the same token the Neutral Good ruler can lie cheat and manipulate their way through life. Hire assassins to kill a rival ruler, sure thing. Send their own good followers to die in a hopeless battle, not a problem. Both of these help the country and the ruler is the country. Nearly all of the governments of Khovaire are monarchies and there's really no reason why a monarch absolutely has to consider the lives of every one of their subjects. The kingdom is more important than the citizenry and certainly more important than the peasantry. Raising taxes to the point that some people starve to continue a fruitless foreign war is perfectly acceptable because the ruler feels that war is helping the country.
I tend to run campaigns where the whole ambiguity of alignment in Eberron is there mechanically because more often than not alignment is thematically ambiguous.
Hmm... I'd say that the Undying Court is possibly the most dogmatic of them all, since it's not as if one can disagree in the long term about what serves the will of the Court. If heretical clergy have any misconceptions about what the Undying Court wants, the UC can just... tell them.
The Sovereign Host, by contrast, seems to be extremely broad and ecumenical, with little in the way of dogma. There are dozens of little sects with their own interpretations, little in the way of central authority, and the Sovereign Host assimilates every little religious tradition from some isolated mountain tribe into its own faith if it gets to them.
Although I suppose you're probablyright about the Silver Flame, Blood of Vol, and Path of Light.
I see the UD as almost Buddhist. Sure, you can walk up to one and ask them whet the truth of life is. But you'll probably have to meditate on the answer for a few years. They have a tendency to answer your questions with questions and hide advice in riddles. If becoming worthy of joining their number was as simple as doing what they said there would be a lot more of them. Instead, followers find their own path to trancendance and are judged thereafter. The BoV has similar traditions, even if they're a bit twisted.
But that's just my take on them.
I see the UC as almost Buddhist. Sure, you can walk up to one and ask them whet the truth of life is. But you'll probably have to meditate on the answer for a few years. They have a tendency to answer your questions with questions and hide advice in riddles.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. The Undying Court are ancient, their basic nature of existence so far removed from anything we know...they just happen to have a different way of thinking and doing things. I believe at least one sourcebook said they're almost alien in nature.
There are the odd few that think the Host, one god or another, will bring them back into the world with a new life, but that view is usually taken as wishful thinking, at best, or heresy at worst.
I think that all over the world the followers of the host have the mostly same stories and the same, or nearly so, rituals and other observations. Locally a mountain range might be where one god or another killed a particular demon, according to local tradition. And any worshiper from anywhere would accept that tale in the same way that many of us accept that a rainbow is a promise not to flood the world, it's taken by the believers but not part of cannon. But individuals are not encouraged to find their own truth, they are told the truth by someone else.
To add a bit of a real world example here, think of what quantum mechanics suggests in what a person thinks affects what they feel and experience. If someone truly had enough conviction and strength of mind, could they, say, walk on water? In theory, the answer is yes; the problem is that such true faith is practically an impossibility.
In a fantasy world, especially one where magic has such influence as Eberron, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch that certain individuals could possess enough inner clarity and will to achieve amazing feats.
To add a bit of a real world example here, think of what quantum mechanics suggests in what a person thinks affects what they feel and experience. If someone truly had enough conviction and strength of mind, could they, say, walk on water? In theory, the answer is yes; the problem is that such true faith is practically an impossibility..
Err... do you actually believe that this is what quantum mechanics says, or are you just writing a sort of sci-fi idea of justifying magic? (along the lines of using zero-point energy as a fictional infinite power source, folded dimensions as a means of faster than light travel, etc.)
Err... do you actually believe that this is what quantum mechanics says, or are you just writing a sort of sci-fi idea of justifying magic? (along the lines of using zero-point energy as a fictional infinite power source, folded dimensions as a means of faster than light travel, etc.)
S-F justification for magic. Quantum Mechanics suggests no such thing, and the thought experiment of Schrödinger's Cat was designed to show how silly it is to try to impose 'common sense' on the Quantum Scale. Sorry Firimar, I did my degree in physics, although I do believe in magic .
Folding Dimensions as FTL travel is actually relativity - and it works, in theory. Of course, it turns out to make a sizeable space ship (say a hundred meters long) go at ten times the speed of light you actually need ten billion times as much energy as is in the entire universe, but at least it has a basis in real science.
Can our beliefs shape reality, or do they merely shape the way we perceive reality? Yes. Work on ESP and random number generators indicate that 'belief' actually has some content power to it. Why is it not part of mainstream physics? Not because of lack of evidence, but because the evidence we have is as yet to imprecise to formulate a viable hypothesis.