Question about the nature of Magic - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question about the nature of Magic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
angryowlbear
Oct 14, 2008 1:45:28 This sort of generalist question could have been posted on any D&D board, but I'm interested in the Eberron community's answer.

This has always been a rather thorny question for me: How are new magics/spells discovered?

It seems that in D&D/Eberron there are a considerable multitude of arcane and divine spells. How did these come to be?

Do entrepreneurial wizards merely sequester themselves and just try different combinations of movements, words and components?

Is the selection of spells in the world finite? It is an easy to imagine an example in which a clever wizard might create a 'ice version' of the iconic spell Melf's Acid Arrow. Perhaps he would merge the somatic gestures of that spell and Chilling Touch, study alternate translations/pronunciations for ice spells and use components which channel glacial ability. I imagine with some tweaking he could achieve this result.

But what about the more adventurous wizard who wants to devise a spell that holds no connection to any presently known. He can scour every ancient tome, grimoire and journals of others' work but he comes up empty. At this point does he just start taking shots in the dark?

In short: If you dream it can it be done? The only impediments being one's own skill, dedication and mortality? OR are there natural laws governing magic

If so couldn't some magic be discovered on accident? A novice magewright screwing around uncovers some new spell? This theory to me suits the Eberron theme better, as 'magic suffuses the world' thus not everything is trickled down from scholars in ivory towers.

There is an ready rationalization in divine magic in that: you have it because your God grants it to you. Eberron however moves (wisely IMO) away from this model and religion functions more as an institution where spell access is controlled more upon your rank in the church. Sure the God could grant the devout new spells, but is it possible to discover these without His involvement?

A second question: The effectiveness of Magic
Harry Potter provides an adequete example: In these novels magic effectiveness is affected by both passion and form.

Example 1: Form: Proper recital, wand movement and a focused mind are fundamental to casting any spell. Characters improve with practice and spells become more potent when these techniques have become familiar.

Example 2: Passion: Frequently appears to affect the outcome of a spell--usually strengthening it. A stunning spell demonstrated to a class might have a tepid effect, but a stunning spell shouted in bloodlust might whirl an enemy across the room. Though applicable to all spells its frequently seen in 'dark' spells across genres. In order for a 'Crucio' (Torture spell) to be effective you have to have a lust for destruction; the same logic might apply to the dark side of the Force in which embracing emotion empowers spells.

So could a studious, frail, stereotypical wizard, with his three companions down, become so enraged/despaired that his sleep spell renders an enemy forever comatose, or his gust of wind becomes an intense maelstrom?

Thanks for reading and your opinions.
AoB
#2
Cyber-Dave
Oct 14, 2008 2:05:18 Eberron treats magic sort of like a science. So, how do new spells get formed? Study and theory. Spell casters study the arcane theory, like mathematicians they begin to play with arcane equations, and sometimes prove certain arcane theories through these arcane equations. And thus, a spell is born. Other methods of devising new spells include, essentially, the scientific method. You look at the variables, create a thesis, and start running tests on the variables in order to prove your thesis. Once your thesis is proven, you apply it to new arcane principles, and in so doing create new magic...
#3
skrap-san
Oct 14, 2008 14:45:29 Ok this answer is partly based on the 3.5 edition but that is how Keith answered it. First: I agree completely with Cyber-Dave, Magic is science, its an alternative to our technology, Magic is the equivalent of steam in steampunk if that helps.

Now for the 3.5 explanation of the advancement of magic.
In the old days, the days in Sarlona before they came to Khorvaire the spellcasters threw spells without the use of words, flailing arms or components/focus itims. This was represented through the feats still spell, silent spell etc etc. But this increased the spells efective level quite much so that only high level individuals where able to cast the spells. And as we know Eberron isn't exactly flowing over with high level individuals. But as time moved on people discovered that through the use of certain elements (components, words flailing arms etc) it would make it easier casting the spells until we arrive at the spells we know today.

And just to object on your view on divine magic: it is not actually controlled by your church, it is granted by faith. Therefor its possible that a country peasant might find he has certain spellcasting abilities that a monk who has spent his entire life in a monastary have no access to.

Hope all of this helped.
#4
need_a_life
Oct 15, 2008 15:00:43 Arcane magic (and artifice for that matter) is the equivalent of science. This part has already been elaborated upon, so let me just say: "Arcanix = CERN" ;)

Divine magic is a lot more questionable. Thing is that we don't know. And neither does the inhabitants of Eberron. Some people believe it to be pure will-power, others that its divinely bestowed and a third school of thought might believe clerics to be lucky amateurs, who just happen to get it right all the time.
Besides, I never heard of any divine spellcaster (except Archivist) that would try to research a spell...
#5
Gilo
Oct 15, 2008 15:25:18
Eberron treats magic sort of like a science. So, how do new spells get formed? Study and theory. Spell casters study the arcane theory, like mathematicians they begin to play with arcane equations, and sometimes prove certain arcane theories through these arcane equations. And thus, a spell is born. Other methods of devising new spells include, essentially, the scientific method. You look at the variables, create a thesis, and start running tests on the variables in order to prove your thesis. Once your thesis is proven, you apply it to new arcane principles, and in so doing create new magic...

Which gives me an idea for another Mournland horror:

The PCs stumble upon the ruins of a Cyrian school of magic. there is very little of the structure still standing, among the scattered stones the PC find a piece of the classroom's blackboard with the last homework exercise still written on it. It reads "by practice - find the
limit of the following arcane power equation 1/x _x->0+ ="

(just another possible theory for the day of mourning...)
#6
vanforge
Oct 15, 2008 23:42:36
Now for the 3.5 explanation of the advancement of magic.
In the old days, the days in Sarlona before they came to Khorvaire the spellcasters threw spells without the use of words, flailing arms or components/focus itims. This was represented through the feats still spell, silent spell etc etc. But this increased the spells efective level quite much so that only high level individuals where able to cast the spells. And as we know Eberron isn't exactly flowing over with high level individuals. But as time moved on people discovered that through the use of certain elements (components, words flailing arms etc) it would make it easier casting the spells until we arrive at the spells we know today.

Where did you get this? Everything have I have read said that normal magic was first learn by dragons during the age of demons and then was taught to Giants and spread from there.
#7
Hellcow
Oct 16, 2008 3:09:58
Where did you get this?

It's an idea I've presented elsewhere on the boards, if you search for it. It's something I've always wanted to address in more detail, but it's essentially a novelty. But yes, in my opinion, arcane magic is a science, and like the science we are familiar with, has gone through many stages of advancement in various cultures. The dragons mastered their arts long ago and shared knowledge with the giants, but most of the arcane magic used in the Five Nations has no direct connection to that path. Instead, if you jumped back to the War of the Mark, say, you'd find that a wizard had a considerably different tool set. Imagine that back in the day, every spell innately had Still Spell and Silent Spell attached to it - meaning that magic missile was a third level spell... so you'd have to be a fifth level wizard before you could even master a magic missile. The development of verbal and somatic components for the spell are what have made it so much easier to cast, dropping it to first level - and now the metamagic feats are essentially stepping back to that raw form, bypassing the common tools.

So the idea is that verbal components, somatic components, and material components are all things that were developed over time, as people learned more efficient ways to channel the energies and the impact of words of power and arcane gestures. Even among the dragons, arcane magic didn't burst into existence fully formed; it was a process of research and development... Though both dragon and demon had an edge due to the raw magical power that is innately a part of them.

But all of this, is, essentially theoretical. There's no plans to make a "War of the Mark" sourcebook, so you're not going to see a presentation of "Pre-Galifar Arcane Magic". But certainly with arcane magic, it's an ongoing process of improvement.
#8
skrap-san
Oct 16, 2008 7:12:34 Basically this is the source of where I found the info, from the creator himself and his little drops of campaign understanding.
#9
vanforge
Oct 16, 2008 13:36:56 Hmm intresting idea. Though if you think about Elves would be far more powerful then the races of Khorvaire.

Maybe even during the war of the mark the other houses saw how the elves used magic and that gave the idea of tring to use the other components.
#10
Hellcow
Oct 16, 2008 16:34:30
Hmm intresting idea. Though if you think about Elves would be far more powerful then the races of Khorvaire.

Actually, that's one of the points I've raised when people were saying that the Aereni should be eladrin. The fact of the matter is that the Aereni AREN'T the world's best wizards, because they are severely limited when it comes to innovation. This is true about the Aereni in general, as called out in PGtE; the Aereni bowyer may spend 300 years perfecting his bowmaking technique, but he's essentially perfecting the SAME techniques used in the past. The Aereni WERE better at magic that the humans for quite some time... but they haven't made any significant advances for thousands of years, while the people of the Five Nations are rapidly advancing. The greatest innovation of the Aereni is actually on the divine front, in the form of the Undying Court. So while arcane magic has a significant role in Aereni culture, divine magic is where their greatest acheivements lie.

So if the Aereni had the same hunger for innovation as the people of the Five Nations, they would likely be a far more powerful force in the world than they are. Instead they are focused on the past - perfecting the skills of their ancestors, but not so much creating new techniques.

And yes, dragon magic, demon magic, Aereni magic, and for that matter dragonmarks are all things that have served as inspiration to humanity, as people have sought ways to duplicate the effects of a dragonmark artificially, or to match the powers they see the Aereni wizard use.
#11
Cyber-Dave
Oct 17, 2008 10:19:57 Kieth, if you don't mind me asking, how do you see the "silent/still spell" idea working in light of 4e, which does not seem to codify these mechanics in any shape or form?

Also, as a side note, I love the fact that in 4e the elf race make more effective clerics than wizards. So Eberron!
#12
Hellcow
Oct 17, 2008 13:03:41
Kieth, if you don't mind me asking, how do you see the "silent/still spell" idea working in light of 4e, which does not seem to codify these mechanics in any shape or form?

The silent/still theory was something I came up with based on the mechanics of 3E. Obviously 4E is different on many levels, from the removal of components to non-Vancian magic. I haven't sat down and come up with specifics for more primitive magic in 3E, but off the top of my head, there's a range of things you could do.
Bump up usage; back when Galifar was being formed, what are now at-will spells were encounter spells, and what are now encounters were dailies. What we know as daily spells were beyond the capabilities of more primitive wizards.
Bump up level, which was essentially the point of silent and still spell - what is now a first level spell used to be a third level spell.
Lower efficiency. Damage might be lower, opponents might get bonuses to saving throws against primitive effects, accuracy could be worse.
Require implements. As it stands now, the wand is an optional implement, and you can cast your spell without it; perhaps there was a time when it was impossible to channel arcane magic directly, and implements were required.
Alternately, perhaps the use of implements is the innovation, and old-school wizards couldn't use implements at all (thus losing the ability to gain that attack/damage/critical bonus)
Perhaps arcane magic evolved through the 3.5 stage to where it is now. First you had your silent/still Vancian magic; this evolved to Vancian magic as we know it in 3.5 (all spells are daily, components are required); and this in turn evolved to 4E magic, where spells can be used more regularly and where components may exist (I certainly SEE wizards in 4E as using gestures and incantations) but are not required.

Rituals are considerably easier. Many rituals may simply not have existed in the past. Others may have had a higher level requirement, longer time or higher component cost, or less favorable skill result table (so effectively, using the old Comprehend Languages, you take a -5 penalty to your Arcana check).

Any of these ideas could also be applied to divine magic. While divine magic is not a science in the same way, I'm all for the idea that it's still something that goes through an evolutionary process, as priests learn that different prayers are answered in different ways (note that the Sovereigns have a variety of symbols - is one more efficient than the other? Does a certain name get better results? A certain attitude on the part of the cleric?) Of course, being less scientific, this is more likely to be the case where you could find a primitive culture that nonetheless has an exceptionally efficient divine tradition.

And of course, I'm not saying that you can't have a tribal drow wizard using normal 4E magic; perhaps he's had a breakthrough on that spell, perhaps it is hand-me-down Giant magic; perhaps it's actually an odd drow tradition that's quite different from human magic.

On that note, I've also got nothing wrong with people being able to find ADVANCED rituals from other cultures - a dragon's version of Comprehend Languages that gives you a +5 to the skill check when you use it. Personally, while I might allow this, I'm not going to say "And you also find a dragon's fireball that can be used as a new at-will!" as this would obviously dramatically mess up the combat balance between the classes. Such spells might exist, but my counter would be that it would take a human wizards ages to "reverse-engineer" such a thing, assuming that they could. I might allow them to learn new spells, but I wouldn't intentionally unbalance those spells against existing ones; I'd be more likely to allow the character to take a feat reflecting the unique knowledge he's gained (so that +2 damage to fire spells feat he gets is a reflection of the fact that he's using improved fire magic).

Also, as a side note, I love the fact that in 4e the elf race make more effective clerics than wizards. So Eberron!

Yup. Which was my point on the "Should Aereni be Eladrin" debate. I see all the present elves as elves. The Valenar have a strong ranger tradition, and the 4E elf works fine for that. While the Aereni have actually achieved more through their clerics than their wizards, and the 4E elf supports that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 angryowlbear Oct 14, 2008 1:45:28	This sort of generalist question could have been posted on any D&D board, but I'm interested in the Eberron community's answer. This has always been a rather thorny question for me: How are new magics/spells discovered? It seems that in D&D/Eberron there are a considerable multitude of arcane and divine spells. How did these come to be? Do entrepreneurial wizards merely sequester themselves and just try different combinations of movements, words and components? Is the selection of spells in the world finite? It is an easy to imagine an example in which a clever wizard might create a 'ice version' of the iconic spell Melf's Acid Arrow. Perhaps he would merge the somatic gestures of that spell and Chilling Touch, study alternate translations/pronunciations for ice spells and use components which channel glacial ability. I imagine with some tweaking he could achieve this result. But what about the more adventurous wizard who wants to devise a spell that holds no connection to any presently known. He can scour every ancient tome, grimoire and journals of others' work but he comes up empty. At this point does he just start taking shots in the dark? In short: If you dream it can it be done? The only impediments being one's own skill, dedication and mortality? OR are there natural laws governing magic If so couldn't some magic be discovered on accident? A novice magewright screwing around uncovers some new spell? This theory to me suits the Eberron theme better, as 'magic suffuses the world' thus not everything is trickled down from scholars in ivory towers. There is an ready rationalization in divine magic in that: you have it because your God grants it to you. Eberron however moves (wisely IMO) away from this model and religion functions more as an institution where spell access is controlled more upon your rank in the church. Sure the God could grant the devout new spells, but is it possible to discover these without His involvement? A second question: The effectiveness of Magic Harry Potter provides an adequete example: In these novels magic effectiveness is affected by both passion and form. Example 1: Form: Proper recital, wand movement and a focused mind are fundamental to casting any spell. Characters improve with practice and spells become more potent when these techniques have become familiar. Example 2: Passion: Frequently appears to affect the outcome of a spell--usually strengthening it. A stunning spell demonstrated to a class might have a tepid effect, but a stunning spell shouted in bloodlust might whirl an enemy across the room. Though applicable to all spells its frequently seen in 'dark' spells across genres. In order for a 'Crucio' (Torture spell) to be effective you have to have a lust for destruction; the same logic might apply to the dark side of the Force in which embracing emotion empowers spells. So could a studious, frail, stereotypical wizard, with his three companions down, become so enraged/despaired that his sleep spell renders an enemy forever comatose, or his gust of wind becomes an intense maelstrom? Thanks for reading and your opinions. AoB
#2 Cyber-Dave Oct 14, 2008 2:05:18	Eberron treats magic sort of like a science. So, how do new spells get formed? Study and theory. Spell casters study the arcane theory, like mathematicians they begin to play with arcane equations, and sometimes prove certain arcane theories through these arcane equations. And thus, a spell is born. Other methods of devising new spells include, essentially, the scientific method. You look at the variables, create a thesis, and start running tests on the variables in order to prove your thesis. Once your thesis is proven, you apply it to new arcane principles, and in so doing create new magic...
#3 skrap-san Oct 14, 2008 14:45:29	Ok this answer is partly based on the 3.5 edition but that is how Keith answered it. First: I agree completely with Cyber-Dave, Magic is science, its an alternative to our technology, Magic is the equivalent of steam in steampunk if that helps. Now for the 3.5 explanation of the advancement of magic. In the old days, the days in Sarlona before they came to Khorvaire the spellcasters threw spells without the use of words, flailing arms or components/focus itims. This was represented through the feats still spell, silent spell etc etc. But this increased the spells efective level quite much so that only high level individuals where able to cast the spells. And as we know Eberron isn't exactly flowing over with high level individuals. But as time moved on people discovered that through the use of certain elements (components, words flailing arms etc) it would make it easier casting the spells until we arrive at the spells we know today. And just to object on your view on divine magic: it is not actually controlled by your church, it is granted by faith. Therefor its possible that a country peasant might find he has certain spellcasting abilities that a monk who has spent his entire life in a monastary have no access to. Hope all of this helped.
#4 need_a_life Oct 15, 2008 15:00:43	Arcane magic (and artifice for that matter) is the equivalent of science. This part has already been elaborated upon, so let me just say: "Arcanix = CERN" ;) Divine magic is a lot more questionable. Thing is that we don't know. And neither does the inhabitants of Eberron. Some people believe it to be pure will-power, others that its divinely bestowed and a third school of thought might believe clerics to be lucky amateurs, who just happen to get it right all the time. Besides, I never heard of any divine spellcaster (except Archivist) that would try to research a spell...
#5 Gilo Oct 15, 2008 15:25:18	Eberron treats magic sort of like a science. So, how do new spells get formed? Study and theory. Spell casters study the arcane theory, like mathematicians they begin to play with arcane equations, and sometimes prove certain arcane theories through these arcane equations. And thus, a spell is born. Other methods of devising new spells include, essentially, the scientific method. You look at the variables, create a thesis, and start running tests on the variables in order to prove your thesis. Once your thesis is proven, you apply it to new arcane principles, and in so doing create new magic... Which gives me an idea for another Mournland horror: The PCs stumble upon the ruins of a Cyrian school of magic. there is very little of the structure still standing, among the scattered stones the PC find a piece of the classroom's blackboard with the last homework exercise still written on it. It reads "by practice - find the limit of the following arcane power equation 1/x _x->0+ =" (just another possible theory for the day of mourning...)
#6 vanforge Oct 15, 2008 23:42:36	Now for the 3.5 explanation of the advancement of magic. In the old days, the days in Sarlona before they came to Khorvaire the spellcasters threw spells without the use of words, flailing arms or components/focus itims. This was represented through the feats still spell, silent spell etc etc. But this increased the spells efective level quite much so that only high level individuals where able to cast the spells. And as we know Eberron isn't exactly flowing over with high level individuals. But as time moved on people discovered that through the use of certain elements (components, words flailing arms etc) it would make it easier casting the spells until we arrive at the spells we know today. Where did you get this? Everything have I have read said that normal magic was first learn by dragons during the age of demons and then was taught to Giants and spread from there.
#7 Hellcow Oct 16, 2008 3:09:58	Where did you get this? It's an idea I've presented elsewhere on the boards, if you search for it. It's something I've always wanted to address in more detail, but it's essentially a novelty. But yes, in my opinion, arcane magic is a science, and like the science we are familiar with, has gone through many stages of advancement in various cultures. The dragons mastered their arts long ago and shared knowledge with the giants, but most of the arcane magic used in the Five Nations has no direct connection to that path. Instead, if you jumped back to the War of the Mark, say, you'd find that a wizard had a considerably different tool set. Imagine that back in the day, every spell innately had Still Spell and Silent Spell attached to it - meaning that magic missile was a third level spell... so you'd have to be a fifth level wizard before you could even master a magic missile. The development of verbal and somatic components for the spell are what have made it so much easier to cast, dropping it to first level - and now the metamagic feats are essentially stepping back to that raw form, bypassing the common tools. So the idea is that verbal components, somatic components, and material components are all things that were developed over time, as people learned more efficient ways to channel the energies and the impact of words of power and arcane gestures. Even among the dragons, arcane magic didn't burst into existence fully formed; it was a process of research and development... Though both dragon and demon had an edge due to the raw magical power that is innately a part of them. But all of this, is, essentially theoretical. There's no plans to make a "War of the Mark" sourcebook, so you're not going to see a presentation of "Pre-Galifar Arcane Magic". But certainly with arcane magic, it's an ongoing process of improvement.
#8 skrap-san Oct 16, 2008 7:12:34	Basically this is the source of where I found the info, from the creator himself and his little drops of campaign understanding.
#9 vanforge Oct 16, 2008 13:36:56	Hmm intresting idea. Though if you think about Elves would be far more powerful then the races of Khorvaire. Maybe even during the war of the mark the other houses saw how the elves used magic and that gave the idea of tring to use the other components.
#10 Hellcow Oct 16, 2008 16:34:30	Hmm intresting idea. Though if you think about Elves would be far more powerful then the races of Khorvaire. Actually, that's one of the points I've raised when people were saying that the Aereni should be eladrin. The fact of the matter is that the Aereni AREN'T the world's best wizards, because they are severely limited when it comes to innovation. This is true about the Aereni in general, as called out in PGtE; the Aereni bowyer may spend 300 years perfecting his bowmaking technique, but he's essentially perfecting the SAME techniques used in the past. The Aereni WERE better at magic that the humans for quite some time... but they haven't made any significant advances for thousands of years, while the people of the Five Nations are rapidly advancing. The greatest innovation of the Aereni is actually on the divine front, in the form of the Undying Court. So while arcane magic has a significant role in Aereni culture, divine magic is where their greatest acheivements lie. So if the Aereni had the same hunger for innovation as the people of the Five Nations, they would likely be a far more powerful force in the world than they are. Instead they are focused on the past - perfecting the skills of their ancestors, but not so much creating new techniques. And yes, dragon magic, demon magic, Aereni magic, and for that matter dragonmarks are all things that have served as inspiration to humanity, as people have sought ways to duplicate the effects of a dragonmark artificially, or to match the powers they see the Aereni wizard use.
#11 Cyber-Dave Oct 17, 2008 10:19:57	Kieth, if you don't mind me asking, how do you see the "silent/still spell" idea working in light of 4e, which does not seem to codify these mechanics in any shape or form? Also, as a side note, I love the fact that in 4e the elf race make more effective clerics than wizards. So Eberron!
#12 Hellcow Oct 17, 2008 13:03:41	Kieth, if you don't mind me asking, how do you see the "silent/still spell" idea working in light of 4e, which does not seem to codify these mechanics in any shape or form? The silent/still theory was something I came up with based on the mechanics of 3E. Obviously 4E is different on many levels, from the removal of components to non-Vancian magic. I haven't sat down and come up with specifics for more primitive magic in 3E, but off the top of my head, there's a range of things you could do. Bump up usage; back when Galifar was being formed, what are now at-will spells were encounter spells, and what are now encounters were dailies. What we know as daily spells were beyond the capabilities of more primitive wizards. Bump up level, which was essentially the point of silent and still spell - what is now a first level spell used to be a third level spell. Lower efficiency. Damage might be lower, opponents might get bonuses to saving throws against primitive effects, accuracy could be worse. Require implements. As it stands now, the wand is an optional implement, and you can cast your spell without it; perhaps there was a time when it was impossible to channel arcane magic directly, and implements were required. Alternately, perhaps the use of implements is the innovation, and old-school wizards couldn't use implements at all (thus losing the ability to gain that attack/damage/critical bonus) Perhaps arcane magic evolved through the 3.5 stage to where it is now. First you had your silent/still Vancian magic; this evolved to Vancian magic as we know it in 3.5 (all spells are daily, components are required); and this in turn evolved to 4E magic, where spells can be used more regularly and where components may exist (I certainly SEE wizards in 4E as using gestures and incantations) but are not required. Rituals are considerably easier. Many rituals may simply not have existed in the past. Others may have had a higher level requirement, longer time or higher component cost, or less favorable skill result table (so effectively, using the old Comprehend Languages, you take a -5 penalty to your Arcana check). Any of these ideas could also be applied to divine magic. While divine magic is not a science in the same way, I'm all for the idea that it's still something that goes through an evolutionary process, as priests learn that different prayers are answered in different ways (note that the Sovereigns have a variety of symbols - is one more efficient than the other? Does a certain name get better results? A certain attitude on the part of the cleric?) Of course, being less scientific, this is more likely to be the case where you could find a primitive culture that nonetheless has an exceptionally efficient divine tradition. And of course, I'm not saying that you can't have a tribal drow wizard using normal 4E magic; perhaps he's had a breakthrough on that spell, perhaps it is hand-me-down Giant magic; perhaps it's actually an odd drow tradition that's quite different from human magic. On that note, I've also got nothing wrong with people being able to find ADVANCED rituals from other cultures - a dragon's version of Comprehend Languages that gives you a +5 to the skill check when you use it. Personally, while I might allow this, I'm not going to say "And you also find a dragon's fireball that can be used as a new at-will!" as this would obviously dramatically mess up the combat balance between the classes. Such spells might exist, but my counter would be that it would take a human wizards ages to "reverse-engineer" such a thing, assuming that they could. I might allow them to learn new spells, but I wouldn't intentionally unbalance those spells against existing ones; I'd be more likely to allow the character to take a feat reflecting the unique knowledge he's gained (so that +2 damage to fire spells feat he gets is a reflection of the fact that he's using improved fire magic). Also, as a side note, I love the fact that in 4e the elf race make more effective clerics than wizards. So Eberron! Yup. Which was my point on the "Should Aereni be Eladrin" debate. I see all the present elves as elves. The Valenar have a strong ranger tradition, and the 4E elf works fine for that. While the Aereni have actually achieved more through their clerics than their wizards, and the 4E elf supports that.