Today I received and read through Dragons of Eberron and it threw me off a bit because it seemed so - different - in the dynamic presented there compared to so much of what I felt I'd read up until then; specifically the Vale of the Fallen Rajah section. There is a definite emphasis on the more typical devil/demon archetypes here, and it just didn't seem to jive... seemed very 'typical' D&D in the feel of these beings vs the thematic backdrop that had been painted before revolving around the Rakshasa, w/the more typical outsiders, well... as outsiders. Also that this Rajah seems to have been killed (or something) seemed different from the whole imprisonment theme as well, but the theme there was cool enough of the spreading blight that I'm ok with that.
At the root of this, there's just basically the question of: which fiends are native fiends of Eberron/spawn of Khyber? I'm inclined to keep the Vale but completely re-imagine the inhabitants to more fit in line with my perception of the setting, but who knows there might be some things Keith has written that I missd somewhere that would make it totally jive. This book especially just seemed to have some non-Eberron sorts of themes shoe-horned in... I suspect by the other authors? Or maybe just a WotC mandate to cross-promote at all cost.
I don't know, but ultimately I am curious as to what demon/devil associations might exist w/Khyber that I may have missed before. Because for me, they were extraplanar vs the other native fiends.
There's no real set convention regarding what fiend is found where. There's no grand list either. You just kind of take it as it comes and when playing, use the fiendish critters you feel would be most appropriate for any given situation.
While Rakshasas are certainly the most common of fiend varieties on Eberron, they by no means are the the only ones, or even necessarily the dominant ones.
Most demons and devils are supposed to be extraplanar, that's true, yet "native" versions have been spawned by Khyber. Usually there are some differences in appearance-for example, the tiger fiend described in the Xen'drik section is technically a balor, yet looks much diferent(and as a spawn of Khyber, has motivations akin to any Lord of Dust). When the new ECG comes out we'll see what changes there might be concerning the subject(if any).
The Tiger Fiend is a good thing to bring up; maybe when running a 'Khyber' demon/devil, I should just 'Rakshasa-ize' its appearance a little and consider it good to go. What book was it mentioned in? I swear I read about it just yesterday, but you know how it is when you need to actually find something.
You'll find all kinds of demons, devils, and others all over Eberron. Pit Fiends in general may be from Fernia, and Lemures may roam Dolurrh, but there are Vrocks in Eberron and Shavvrath. There are Succubi in Ebberon (one is a member of the Lords of Dust). There are all kinds of "typical" demons/devils in Eberron. There's a Yugoloth that sails in a ship around Khorvaire, bound to some mysterious purpose.
There's no real set convention regarding what fiend is found where. There's no grand list either. You just kind of take it as it comes and when playing, use the fiendish critters you feel would be most appropriate for any given situation.
While Rakshasas are certainly the most common of fiend varieties on Eberron, they by no means are the the only ones, or even necessarily the dominant ones.
The succubi is a good point and I had forgotten that - it works well I feel with the the themes most certainly. Now the vrocks on the other hand were some of the creatures I was raising an eyebrow a yesterday when reading through DoE, that and the Bloodwar-esque depiction of the behaviors (for example item 5 on page 51). Seemed like out-of-sync authoring, but whatever I'll take it for what it is I guess.
That seafaring Yugoloth actually seems like it might be another case of the same without knowing much about it/him, but since I don't think I have that book, I can't comment accurately.
The Tiger Fiend is a good thing to bring up; maybe when running a 'Khyber' demon/devil, I should just 'Rakshasa-ize' its appearance a little and consider it good to go. What book was it mentioned in? I swear I read about it just yesterday, but you know how it is when you need to actually find something.
Sure. Dragons of Eberron, Xen'Drik section...I think.
There's a Yugoloth that sails in a ship around Khorvaire, bound to some mysterious purpose.
What was the source of this? It sounds very interesting.
Sure. Dragons of Eberron, Xen'Drik section...I think.
Ok found it, pg 140.
Well, actually though that doesn't make me feel all that much better because the focus seems to be on the fact that it's a balor, and then the random encounters and flavor text return to being very demon/devil heavy. It takes me back to the seemingly 'divergent' vision presented in the book that got me to start this thread in the first place.
And while I'm on the book itself, the preface material indicates almost in an absolute sense 'secret land, no visitors, no one leaves,' and then the city of Io'Lokar is presented and it seems to fly in the face of this. These highlevel, super-knowledgeable residents of this uber-city are seemingly allowed to travel the planet as they please. Do they never talk to the people in the lands they visit? Just seems to undermine a lot of what Argonnessen was initially going for to have this sort-of humanoid metropolis there, even if it is ostensibly as a slave city. So I'm left with that feeling of multiple authors, different visions, and not all of them in sync.
What was the source of this? It sounds very interesting.
Explorer's Handbook. One of the encounter options. Forgot the page.
It's meant to set up interesting exploration motivations, like finding El Dorado, or any other fabled city of wealth.
It's very pulp, so I think it fits Eberron, regardless of how inaccessible Argonessen is supposed to be. Because largely, it's just a legend, and not even one a commoner would know. Like, if you wanted to fund an expedition to Io'Lokar, you'd probably have to find an investor even willing to believe it might exist.
As far as the Demon/Devil thing goes, there's still a split in ideaology, if not home territory. In the world of Eberron, planar scholars designated all hideously evil but calculating and scheming otherworldy entities as "Devils", and all hideously evil and destructive otherwordly entities as "Demons". Maybe not quite as simply as that, but you get the idea. So all Demons still share some basic qualities and phsycology that would put them at odds most of the time with Devils, regardless of plane of origin.
As for that Rajah that died, my assumption was that he was reborn like any other rajah, but he was just so
evil that his death left a stain. Sure they don't mention that he reformed, but you just have to assume that since all Rajahs reform, he did too.Maybe he was the first Rajah the Dragons managed to kill, before realizing that they do come back.
Explorer's Handbook. One of the encounter options. Forgot the page.
Thanks a bundle. An interesting read. I might find a use for this in my campaign or in some future. It could certainly come in handy, if my players have done something incredibly stupid and needs to be punished, but still have a way out.
To Khyber and Back
The PCs were tracking an entire tribe of Goliaths that was taken prisoner and dragged into Khyber by abberant monstrocities. After weeks of traveling through the Underdark, they breached into Khyber (In my campaign, I like things to get progressively creepier and weirder the deeper into Khyber you go. So rock tunnels and stalagtites were eventually replaced by fleshy tubular tunnels like the insides of intestines and rivers of blood).
Once in Khyber, they find a huge cavern, a mile tall, with a night sky reflected on the top. The cavern's bottom was mostly a sea of black sludge. On the beach of this sea was a stone tower in the shape of a hand reaching out over the sea with its palm open, as if offering something.
The PCs went inside the tower and killed the dolgaunts and mind flayers holding the goliaths hostage, but not before the mind flayer cult leader summoned his master. Orlassk the Master of Stone.
At first the PCs thought the summons of the mind flayer's master didn't work, because the Dealkyr Lord didn't just show up. So they started organizing the goliath tribe for the trip back. Then the tower started to shake. Then shake again, a little harder. And then again, a litter harder still.
As the rythm became apparent, the PCs realized that something HUGE was walking toward the tower. They evacuated the tribe as quickly as possible. Once outside, they saw that an absolutely enormous stone creature was steadily crawling toward the stone tower. It was about two-thousand feet all. I described it as moving slowly but because of its size, there was no way the PCs could out-run it to reach the gigantic cavern's entrance and evade capture.
As the huge creature-fortress approached the beach, from the other side, nearer to the PCs, the black sludge started belching forth fog. Suddenly a sea vessel breached the fog, a lone figure standing on its prow. The ultroloth captain. He gave the PCs the standard deal. A one way trip if they perform a task for him to be named later.
The PCs look back the other way, and see Orlassk's titantic fortress-monster lower it's face to the top of the tower, then open is maw and extend its tongue.
The PCs immediately take the deal and usher the entire goliath tribe onto the boat.
They look back at the fortress creature as the fog starts to envelope the ship. Orlassk himself steps out of the titantic mouth, and the only thing keeping the PC's minds whole is the distance from him. He stares at the PCs and says "I won't forget this."
Then the fog takes the ship completely.
Once in Khyber, they find a huge cavern, a mile tall, with a night sky reflected on the top. The cavern's bottom was mostly a sea of black sludge. On the beach of this sea was a stone tower in the shape of a hand reaching out over the sea with its palm open, as if offering something.
The PCs went inside the tower and killed the dolgaunts and mind flayers holding the goliaths hostage, but not before the mind flayer cult leader summoned his master. Orlassk the Master of Stone.
At first the PCs thought the summons of the mind flayer's master didn't work, because the Dealkyr Lord didn't just show up. So they started organizing the goliath tribe for the trip back. Then the tower started to shake. Then shake again, a little harder. And then again, a litter harder still.
As the rythm became apparent, the PCs realized that something HUGE was walking toward the tower. They evacuated the tribe as quickly as possible. Once outside, they saw that an absolutely enormous stone creature was steadily crawling toward the stone tower. It was about two-thousand feet all. I described it as moving slowly but because of its size, there was no way the PCs could out-run it to reach the gigantic cavern's entrance and evade capture.
As the huge creature-fortress approached the beach, from the other side, nearer to the PCs, the black sludge started belching forth fog. Suddenly a sea vessel breached the fog, a lone figure standing on its prow. The ultroloth captain. He gave the PCs the standard deal. A one way trip if they perform a task for him to be named later.
The PCs look back the other way, and see Orlassk's titantic fortress-monster lower it's face to the top of the tower, then open is maw and extend its tongue.
The PCs immediately take the deal and usher the entire goliath tribe onto the boat.
They look back at the fortress creature as the fog starts to envelope the ship. Orlassk himself steps out of the titantic mouth, and the only thing keeping the PC's minds whole is the distance from him. He stares at the PCs and says "I won't forget this."
Then the fog takes the ship completely.
Io'Lokar is supposed to be Eberron's Shangri-la. It's a mythical city of wealth and power. No one outside Argonessen has any concrete evidence of it, but just enough knowledge about it has trickled out (from teleporting residents) that the city has become legend on Khorvaire. Maybe not a well-known legend, but there you go.
It's meant to set up interesting exploration motivations, like finding El Dorado, or any other fabled city of wealth.
It's very pulp, so I think it fits Eberron, regardless of how inaccessible Argonessen is supposed to be. Because largely, it's just a legend, and not even one a commoner would know. Like, if you wanted to fund an expedition to Io'Lokar, you'd probably have to find an investor even willing to believe it might exist.
Ok, I can go with that - that's a good take on it and in that context I can agree with its place in the setting as exactly the sort of Shangri La setting you set up.
As far as the Demon/Devil thing goes, there's still a split in ideaology, if not home territory. In the world of Eberron, planar scholars designated all hideously evil but calculating and scheming otherworldy entities as "Devils", and all hideously evil and destructive otherwordly entities as "Demons". Maybe not quite as simply as that, but you get the idea. So all Demons still share some basic qualities and phsycology that would put them at odds most of the time with Devils, regardless of plane of origin.
As for that Rajah that died, my assumption was that he was reborn like any other rajah, but he was just so
Maybe he was the first Rajah the Dragons managed to kill, before realizing that they do come back.
Well, for me when it comes to Khyber I always interpreted Demons to be a general term to describe "evil spawn of Khyber" in the broader sense, without any delineation between ethos or crede on the traditional extraplanar demon/devil split. Those sorts of abstract ideals more epitomized in the actual extraplanar denizens themselves.
But, I see where you're coming from on it.
Well, for me when it comes to Khyber I always interpreted Demons to be a general term to describe "evil spawn of Khyber" in the broader sense...
Indeed, the "Age of Demons" would more properly be termed the "Age of Fiends". And the rakshasa are the most numerous of the native fiends of Eberron, they just aren't the only ones.
To me, the key point is that immortals are fundamentally different from mortal creatures. Many of them are essentially ideas given solid form. As such, in dealing with a demon, you're dealing with two separate things: his mechanical statistics, and the idea that he embodies. As such, you could find a vrock in Shavarath or in the Demon Wastes. Mechanically they'd be the same. But one is a spirit of war - chaotic evil, embodying the savagery and brutality of war, but nonetheless an embodiment of battle. A vrock spawned by Khyber, on the other hand, could fit the more traditional role of evil schemer. As noted above, they could take different forms as well. With immortals, you should always feel free to tweak their appearance to give them more individuality or a strong connection to their core concept.
Many thanks for chiming in Keith - I think this sort of goes in line with what I've been pondering here in terms of perceived flavor discrepencies. Where I feel it fits more with the setting, as a DM I'll just tone down what I feel may be pulls into a non-Eberron direction for some of these places of interest/encounters. Then again if you did author that section on Bebiliths culling demons and imps and quasits positioning to become bone devils, well I'll just broaden my previous understanding of the Lords of Dust psyche!
On the side, I want to mention that I really really enjoy this setting. I love the flavor and the edge. I just picked up ECS two weeks ago, and I've bought three more of the books since then! So... thanks for any insights into the 'demon' question (and to everyone else also), and my thanks and gratitude for your efforts on the setting itself.
Far from an Eberron expert, I've been confused by the use of the terms "demon" and "devil" in that context. Am I understanding right that all demons and devils in Eberron are lumped together in the term "fiends"? Do Rakshasa, which formerly stood out as being native outsiders, also count as fiends or are they a seperate kind of bug?
It seems to me that where other settings refer to the netherworlds and their demon and devil occupants, I should read that as "rakshasa" when applying it to Eberron?
Do fiends (ie demons and devils) have any sort of heirarchy or civilization in Eberron? If wanted to use the Nine Hells of 4e's Manual of the Planes, would I reskin all those devil princes as Rakshasas, or is there a place in Eberron's cosmology where I'd find devils fighting for power amongst themselves?
Thanks all. Hope I didn't take your thread away from you.
"Fiend" is a generic DnD term for "evil outsider", and it works in Eberron like it does in any setting. The confusion in Eberron comes from the colliloqual use of "Demon" to refer to all fiends, not just specifically Demons. Example: The Age of Demons would be more appropriately called the Age of Fiends.
Demons, Devils, and non-demon-non-devil evil outsiders are still distinct from each other. Demons are wanton destroyers, Devils are scheming and power hungry, etc. etc.
"Rakshasa" is still a term used soley to refer to the specific, backwards-handed native fiends with feline heads. You wouldn't call a Balor a Rakshasa. A Balor is still a Demon.
Some confusion in Eberron may arise because
A) Demons and Devils can also be native to Eberron, and if they are, might have a more rakshasa-like appearance. There is a Balor in Dragons of Eberron that has a tiger-like head, and appears to be a monstrously buff Rakshasa, but it is still a Demon and not a Rakshasa.
B) Demons and Devils originating amongst the planes are not cohesive families. Demons can be found native to Shavarath, Mabar, Dollurh, and even the material plane. So in Eberron the terms "Demon" and "Devil" are more categorizations. Like you find a creature, study it, and determin "oh, that's a Demon" rather than "it's an evil outsider from Specfic Plane X, so it's a Demon."
As for the Nine Hells, the basic answer is that in Eberron, the Nine Hells and the Abyss don't exist. Asmodeus, Mephistopholes, Orcus, and Demogorgon are not known entities in Eberron, unless you want to convert them to the setting in in your home games in some way.
So the Devils don't come from the Nine Hells; they come from seperate planes throughout the multiverse, including the Material and if there was an Asmodeus, he wouldn't be a Rakshasa, he'd be a Devil.
That was a bit meandering, but I hope it helped.
The most powerful fiends in Eberron are the rajahs. They've often been referred to as "rakshasa rajahs" in the past, I believe, which isn't technically correct and has sometimes led to confusion.
My understanding is that the recommended way to use Orcus, Demogorgon, etc. in Eberron is to say that they are rajahs, sealed away in the depths of Khyber.
It's also my understanding that rakshasa are the most prevalent leaders of the fiends; that while balors and vrocks and mezzodemons and the rest all exist in Khyber, and the various devils of Eberron (as opposed to those from Shavarath) still scheme and vie for power, the rakshasa are the ones that can be found throughout the heirarchy, pulling the strings and orchestrating everything.
So the demons and devils of Eberron aren't all rakshasa themselves... but they might bear rakshasa-like traits, and they've almost certainly been involved with rakshasa at some point.
The Term "Rakshasa Rajah" is correct, but misleading. It does not mean "A rakshasa who is a Rajah (overlord, ruler, king, etc.)" but rather "An Overlord (ruler, king, etc) of Rakshasas".
A less confusing appelation is "Demon Overlord". And indeed, various Demon Princes from other settings may well be applicable Demon Overlords in Eberron, though there are many uniquely Eberronian Overlords (Like Katashka the Gatekeeper and The Rage of War).
As an aside.... I'm much more accepting of the "Demon Princes are Rajahs in Eberron" view now that the power levels have been re-shuffled a bit. In 3.5, Demon Princes such as Orcus or Graz'zt were around CR 25-30, a suitable low-epic threat. Gods in 3.5, had no challenge rating because they were impossible to balance, but could roughly be pinned, on hit-dice alone, at CR 60. In a 3.5 Eberron lore and convention (as well as a Dragon article written by Keith) the Rakshasa Rajahs (Or Demon Overlords) were more on par with Lesser Deities (Still around CR 60) than Orcus (Around CR 30.) So I always felt that depicting Orcus, or Mephistopholes, or Graz'zt, or Demogoron as Demon Overlords immensely short-sold how unimaginably powerful the Rajahs were.
Now that Orcus and Demogorgon are on par with lesser deities, I feel it's now appropriate to converted them as Rajahs. Hell, Tiamat was a Rajah in 3.5, and she has stats as a God in 4e Eberron that need not be adjusted at all.
(Though, one thing I would do to Orcus and Demogorgon is add the divine "discorporate when bloodied" thing to them, since Rajahs cannot be killed, just like deities).
It seems a shame to toss out what's been written about demons and devils, though, for the sake of these nebulously-defined Rajah, though.
Looking at the cut-away view of the Nine Hells from Manual of the Planes, my first thought is to make that "map" be the depths of Khyber and use all the devil princes and Hell-ish politics for the Rajah and their rakshasa followers.
Maybe.
I think that all makes sense. Thanks, gang.
It seems a shame to toss out what's been written about demons and devils, though, for the sake of these nebulously-defined Rajah, though.
Looking at the cut-away view of the Nine Hells from Manual of the Planes, my first thought is to make that "map" be the depths of Khyber and use all the devil princes and Hell-ish politics for the Rajah and their rakshasa followers.
Maybe.
I'm pretty certain that the 4E Eberron devs share your sentiments, and possibly some of your ideas.
Though we only have the EPG at this point, I got the impression that Eberron's cosmology has undergone substantial changes for the very reason you mention above: it would be a shame if "core" products couldn't work for Eberron. James Wyatt says as much in an interview recently posted on the DnD Homepage. Supplements like MotP should be usable to all DnD gamers.
I believe the ECG will reveal a much more "core" cosmology. In support of this suspicion, I noticed that the Elemental Chaos (and, therefore the Abyss) has been rolled into Khyber, in a manner of speaking. The Astral Sea is now rolled into Siberys, and the Shadowfell and Feywild are rolled into Eberron.
Give it a month, and you may very well find some of your ideas have become "core Eberron". ;)
That said, if you want to map Baator to Khyber in your home games, you could certainly do worse. Hellish evil underground? Sounds about right!
Give it a month, and you may very well find some of your ideas have become "core Eberron". ;)
You may at that.
The Lords of Dust remain intact from 3.5E, and the 4E ECG goes into far more detail about them than the 3.5 ECS did (including stats for a particularly important overlord and his speaker). However, a clear role is suggested for other types of fiends.
You may at that.
I'm eager to see how the new cosmology flows. I think the more accessible planes of 4E are a great feature of 4E, and I'm eager to see how they work in Eberron.
The Lords of Dust remain intact from 3.5E, and the 4E ECG goes into far more detail about them than the 3.5 ECS did (including stats for a particularly important overlord and his speaker). However, a clear role is suggested for other types of fiends.
The ECG sounds like a very complete volume. Time and again I've essentially heard: "don't worry, this will get some coverage in the ECG". It's sound like you guys have put together one hell of a book. All the great things in Eberron that developed over the course of it's 3rd Edition iteration seem to get at least some attention in the new ECG. I can't wait to dig into all these new locations and hooks!
I believe the ECG will reveal a much more "core" cosmology. In support of this suspicion, I noticed that the Elemental Chaos (and, therefore the Abyss) has been rolled into Khyber, in a manner of speaking. The Astral Sea is now rolled into Siberys, and the Shadowfell and Feywild are rolled into Eberron.
The Feywild and Shadowfell have become Thelanis and Malbar. There was also some talk about the elemental chaos being where one finds the elemental planes (fernia and its ilk).
How these related to the orbital model would be left up to debate. The orbital model might not even reflect actual orbits, and the orrery simply represents the the varying influences of the planes on Eberron with being closer representing a stronger influence and being further resulting in a weaker influence.
The Abyss wasn;t really mentioned and Eberron has gotten along before without its existence, even it tried to mirror 3E's cosmology of a plane dedicated to each element, a positive/negative energy and law/chaos planes.
There's no reason the Abyss, for instance, wouldn't still be located in the Elemental Chaos. The "Chaos of Khyber", as I believe it was referenced, is a place with Demons roving about, trying to escape their bonds. That sounds like a perfect opportunity to roll the core concept of the Abyss into Eberron.
It fits perfectly, really. I believe this is one of the prime reasons we've seen the Feywild (Thelanis) and Shadowfell (Dolurrh) rolled into Eberron, the Astral Sea rolled into Siberys (we now potentially have a more core-friendly home for the Princes of the Hells), and The E.Chaos into Khyber. The old orrery is gone, I believe. Instead of planes "orbiting" the Prime Material Plane, they now exist in layers, so to speak. Their influences wax and wane, so we still have the terms and concepts of "coterminous" and "remote".
This isn't all just blind speculation on my part. I'm basing this entirely on what I've read in the EPG (p10, or instance) and James Wyatt's allusions in his interview with Mike Mearls (I think it was Mike).
If the core cosmology wasn't built into Eberron in some form, WotC would be doing themselves a disservice. Any future planar supplements lose value to an Eberron fan if Eberron's cosmology isn't at all in line with core suppositions. I could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if I were.
I don't really see the need for the Nine Hells, though. Asmodeus isn't worshiped in Eberron, so his personal Astral Dominion should be nowhere near it. As for Devils, they're fine belonging to various and sundry Eberron-specific Astral Dominions, such as their 3.5 placement, Shavarrath.
I could see some merit in actually naming a place in the Chaos of Khyber "the abyss". It wouldn't be inherently altering the setting.
Yep.
I don't really see the need for the Nine Hells, though. Asmodeus isn't worshiped in Eberron, so his personal Astral Dominion should be nowhere near it. As for Devils, they're fine belonging to various and sundry Eberron-specific Astral Dominions, such as their 3.5 placement, Shavarrath.
I agree that the Nine Hells aren't needed in Eberron. Yet, we now have an Astral Sea away up there in the sky. I'd be shocked if they didn't drop these fallen angels and their kingdoms into Eberron's Astral Sea. They'll be there if we want them, and out of the way if we don't.
Other than the possible run-in with a Radiant Idol, I can't think of any time angels would be included in my Eberron campaign, either. Angels and Devils don't really play much of a role in Eberron (unless those devils are affiliated with the Lords of Dust, of course). I still would be surprised if they weren't shoehorned in, though. I would expect it to be done subtlely, or in passing, but done all the same.
Again, I could be way off. The Princes of the Hells were more conjecture than the rest of my post above. I'm pretty confident on the rest of it. The Princes may or may not make an appearance. I think we're in agreement that even it they are included, they'll be distant players, not all that important to the people of Eberron.
Then again, Asmodeus would make one hell of a Rajah. That would explain his god-like power, at least... I'm eager to read every word of the ECG.
Any future planar supplements lose value to an Eberron fan if Eberron's cosmology isn't at all in line with core suppositions. I could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if I were.
You are not as Mike Mearls (I think it was) basically directly stated as such. They wanted to make sure that Eberron was "future proofed" so later supplements were as useful to Eberron DMs as anyone else. Personally, I don't know a lot about the old Eberron cosmology but I don't mind how the new cosmology fits together. Plus it's good to make more things useful than less.
Another complete tangent then, is the progenitor dragon Eberron the source of Primal power in Eberron?
Hah! Nice question.
I'm sure we'll never really know. I'm also sure some faith or another believes this to be true.
The old orrery is gone, I believe.
I've got the 4E version of the planar orrery as my computer desktop - done by Lee Moyer (who also did the 3.5 version), and one of my favorite pieces of Eberron art to date. 4E concepts have been merged with the planes, but that doesn't result in the loss of the orrery. The planes aren't planets, and the orrery doesn't represent PHYSICAL orbits. It's used to represent the fact that the planes move in and out of phase with Eberron, becoming coterminous and remote. As this remains true, the orrery map remains valid, and is still used in 4E.
I've got the 4E version of the planar orrery as my computer desktop - done by Lee Moyer (who also did the 3.5 version), and one of my favorite pieces of Eberron art to date. 4E concepts have been merged with the planes, but that doesn't result in the loss of the orrery. The planes aren't planets, and the orrery doesn't represent PHYSICAL orbits. It's used to represent the fact that the planes move in and out of phase with Eberron, becoming coterminous and remote. As this remains true, the orrery map remains valid, and is still used in 4E.
Excellent! I guess it does make sense that Arcanists and the like would still desire to track the influence of the planes. Duh.
I still have the awesome Planar Calender utility saved in my favorites. I've never used it for a game, but I love it all the same.
Lee's work is amazing. His new maps are the best I've ever seen in all my years of gaming. Honestly, I think they're the most attractive maps of any sort that I've ever seen. That's saying something, as I'm somewhat obssessed with maps. Pass along our love for the maps, if you could.
I've got the 4E version of the planar orrery as my computer desktop - done by Lee Moyer (who also did the 3.5 version), and one of my favorite pieces of Eberron art to date. 4E concepts have been merged with the planes, but that doesn't result in the loss of the orrery. The planes aren't planets, and the orrery doesn't represent PHYSICAL orbits. It's used to represent the fact that the planes move in and out of phase with Eberron, becoming coterminous and remote. As this remains true, the orrery map remains valid, and is still used in 4E.
Actually that makes perfect sense. The planes are a certain way normally, but the way they perceive these things most often in Eberron is by how they interact with their world at specific times. So it would make sense their cosmological model would be based not on their actual structure but what they do when they are close to the world.
Actually that makes perfect sense. The planes are a certain way normally, but the way they perceive these things most often in Eberron is by how they interact with their world at specific times. So it would make sense their cosmological model would be based not on their actual structure but what they do when they are close to the world.
And it's always been that way. As Keith said by way of illustration, the planes aren't planets, they never did "orbit" Eberron. That's just an illustrative way of viewing them, as you've said. If I'd have kept that in mind, I may have worded my original post a little differently.
Pass along our love for the maps, if you could.
Certainly. Lee has a few excellent pieces in the ECG.
Certainly. Lee has a few excellent pieces in the ECG.
I'm looking forward to them. I've been excited ever since the first sneek-peak in Bill Slavicsek's column. I've already shown my wife the miniaturized versions in the EPG at least twice. She's a good woman, even if she doesn't share my nerdish glee for maps, gaming, or any combination therof.
And really, it makes perfect sense. The cosmology has no "physical" shape. They are not the moons orbiting Eberron. Even the World Axis is not a physical representation. For example, "up" is Siberys and the Astral Sea, but you can't just fly up and get there (At least, when Syrannia isn't coterminus). You'd hit hard vacuum and start going into deep space. Dal Quor, Thelanis, and Dolurrh are part of the Coils of Eberron, but they aren't physical planets next to it.
Placing the planes in a structure is all about metaphor. The World Axis isn't any more of a representation of the physical shape of the cosmology than the Orrery. They're both just conceptual views.