Quickquestion about the Emerald Claw - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Quickquestion about the Emerald Claw

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Hideous_Phidias
Aug 20, 2010 23:09:15 The Emerald Claw as a group, are they crimials and outlaws in all of Khorvaire or just Karrnath? My group is having a problem with them, as most of are playing characters from Karrnath, see them as outlaws. Our Paladin from Breland has has the same take. He also happens to be a sentinel marsha, and a question of how much law enforcement power he has.
#2
Dargurd
Aug 21, 2010 0:06:28 They were disbanded during the war by Regent Morrana as they were seen as a 'problem child' so to speak. As such certainly in Karrnath openly declaring membership would not be a good idea.

Outside of Karrnath they may be seen as war criminals as they were a pretty nasty bunch that carried out a lot of extreme actions so to speak during the war. They do however make great bad guys that can be found anywhere.

Remember Khorvaire is in a period of 'Cold War' that is smouldering and ready to ignite at any time. The Emerald Claw would love this to happen and in their eyes are still fighting this war.
#3
AvonRekaes
Aug 21, 2010 1:02:31 Yeah, I think the reason Kaius outlawed the order, at least what he told the public, was because they were a bunch of fanatics guilty of war crimes.

As war criminals, they would be wanted across Khorvaire. They're essentially a terrorist organization.
#4
night_falcon_02
Aug 21, 2010 8:26:36 Very much so. They often act as the terrorist arm of The Blood of Vol cults here and there. AS well as being seen as war criminals, how much power your pally player has is going to be fairly discretionary.

The Eberron group I'm currently in just got done dealing with some Emerald Claw and brought them to justice, of course we are from Droaam and the Emerald Claw were taking over ruins in Droaam to stay for the long haul. So in this brought to justice meant we simply and indescriminatley killed all of them and burned the undead they had been making. Also worth noting that we weren't visitor's to Droaam about half the party actually grew up there.
#5
Alex_
Aug 21, 2010 10:58:53
The Emerald Claw as a group, are they crimials and outlaws in all of Khorvaire or just Karrnath? My group is having a problem with them, as most of are playing characters from Karrnath, see them as outlaws. Our Paladin from Breland has has the same take. He also happens to be a sentinel marsha, and a question of how much law enforcement power he has.

  Ever seen old pulp/adventure movies, especially Indiana Jones?

  You know how there's always that Nazi/Soviet organization with a leader who claims to be loyal to the government, but in actuality, seems to be turning the organization in pursuit of their own schemes, which always seems to include acquisition of supernatural artifacts and/or forgotten knowledge?

  They follow the protagonist across the world, have a couple of battles with them, and at one point they might capture them, only for the protagonist to escape and foil their plans. At that point they shake their fist and yell "Next time!" and the world keeps in spinning for another day.

  That's more or less the role of the Emerald Claw. Only they have more zombies.
#6
Hellcow
Aug 23, 2010 12:40:10
Our Paladin from Breland has has the same take. He also happens to be a sentinel marsha, and a question of how much law enforcement power he has.

Marsha Marsha Marsha!

... But assuming that was just a typo and he's actually a Sentinel MarshaL, he's basically like a PI. Full details are on page 148-149 of the Sharn: City of Towers books, but the key phrase is "Sentinel Marshals are usually employed as auxiliaries by regional authorities..." The point is that he is AUTHORIZED to enforce the law, but unless he's been assigned to do it by someone, the local authorities may not appreciate him exercising that authority. Which means, ultimately, it's up to you as DM and based on the local law enforcement agency. If he's got a good relationship with the local Watch, they may be thrilled to have the help. If on the other hand the local Watch is corrupt and in the pocket of the Order, they may actually chastize him and let the people go, for whatever reason they care to make up, or if he's killed people punish him for it. "We were in the middle of an undercover operation, and you just ruined it."

When he's EMPLOYED as a Sentinel Marshal, he's got the backing of the house behind him and the local watch had best stay out of his way. But if he's just sticking his nose in other people's business for the fun of it, he's potentially stepping on toes.
#7
Hellcow
Aug 23, 2010 12:59:15 As for the Emerald Claw, you've got multiple factors. Bear in mind that the Emerald Claw is essentially an onion... an organization with many layers.

At its heart you have the members of the original chivalric order - elite soldiers, wizards, and necromancers dedicated to Karrnath and the Blood of Vol. These people were some of the finest soldiers in the war. From the 4E ECG: "Its members have been praised for bravery, innovation, and toughness as often as they have been accused of flaunting tradition and fomenting treason... none could dispute their discipline, training, and readiness to give their lives in defense of the kingdom of Karrnath." The Seeker chivalric orders - The Emerald Claw, the Onyx Skull, and others - played a vital role in the defense of the kingdom. But they were loyal first and foremost to the Queen of the Dead, and this made them a threat to the power of the Karrnathi crown... and every victory gave them and the Blood of Vol greater influence in Karrnath. Thus when they were no longer needed Kaius and Moranna turned on them and framed them, portraying them as fanatics, traitors, and criminals.

So at the heart you have the survivors of that unit, elite and deadly soldiers. At the next layer you have the Karrns who have joined the Order since it was outlawed. These are Karrnathi patriots or loyal Seekers. Some of them despise Kaius for accepting the current peace. Others hate him for betraying the Blood of Vol after the faith saved the kingdom from defeat. Others simply believe that the Queen of the Dead will raise Karrnath to its rightful place in the world - or defeat death itself. So MANY Karrns have turned against the Order - but it still gets new Karrnathi recruits every day, and in a place like Sharn, the Karrnathi community is where members of the Claw are most likely to find support and shelter.

And finally, you have the outermost layer - recent recruits from outside of Karrnath. The majority of these are veterans who feel (often rightfully so) that they have been abandoned by their own countries. Some are just in it for power and gold; others are nihilists who believe that it is time for the Queen of the Dead to reign over Galifar. This latter approach is one that often appeals to Cyran refugees. Their nation is a charnel pit; let Death reign over all.

Most of these people are fanatics who are truly dedicated to their cause. However, there are also the rotten spots on the onion. These are the people who care nothing for the proclaimed goals of the Order or the principles of the Blood of Vol, but rather just seek personal power. Many of the leaders of the Order - including Erandis herself - fall into this category. The Order is simply a tool to these people, and the fanatic faith of their followers a convenient tool.

While the majority of the EC are driven by principles, and while they have indeed been betrayed by Kaius and Moranna, the EC isn't one of the morally gray forces in the world. The EC pretty much exists to fill the role of pulp bad guy. They're COBRA, or the Nazis in Indiana Jones movies. They may believe in what they are doing, but whatever it is, odds are good you don't want it to happen. Thus, when you run into the Claw in Breland, it's not their status as war criminals outlawed by the King of Karrnath that people will care about; it's their status as an international terrorist organization that's likely struck all of the Five Nations at one point or another. So you'll generally only see them walking around in full regalia in public in a lawless city like Stormreach or Graywall... or when they are on a mission.
#8
ellorin
Aug 29, 2010 9:52:14

At its heart you have the members of the original chivalric order - elite soldiers, wizards, and necromancers dedicated to Karrnath and the Blood of Vol. These people were some of the finest soldiers in the war. From the 4E ECG: "Its members have been praised for bravery, innovation, and toughness as often as they have been accused of flaunting tradition and fomenting treason... none could dispute their discipline, training, and readiness to give their lives in defense of the kingdom of Karrnath." The Seeker chivalric orders - The Emerald Claw, the Ebon Skull, and others - played a vital role in the defense of the kingdom. But they were loyal first and foremost to the Queen of the Dead, and this made them a threat to the power of the Karrnathi crown... and every victory gave them and the Blood of Vol greater influence in Karrnath. Thus when they were no longer needed Kaius and Moranna turned on them and framed them, portraying them as fanatics, traitors, and criminals.

Fascinating as always. I have to ask though:was the Ebon Skull also denounced or did it become the loyalist necromantic chivalric order?
#9
Hellcow
Aug 29, 2010 11:01:42
Fascinating as always. I have to ask though:was the Ebon Skull also denounced or did it become the loyalist necromantic chivalric order?

First, my bad: It's the ONYX Skull, not the Ebon Skull.

My thought was that both had been denounced... and that the Onyx Skull had simply accepted its fate quietly. However, I'm having trouble locating the canon source that states this. So it could be that the Onyx Skull remains as the force that maintains Fort Bones and Fort Zombie. However, as I said, my feeling is that both Onyx Skull and Emerald Claw were Seeker-heavy orders and as such both were disbanded... as part of the point was to undermine the influence of the Blood of Vol in Karrnath.
#10
ellorin
Aug 29, 2010 12:14:16
Fascinating as always. I have to ask though:was the Ebon Skull also denounced or did it become the loyalist necromantic chivalric order?

First, my bad: It's the ONYX Skull, not the Ebon Skull.

My thought was that both had been denounced... and that the Onyx Skull had simply accepted its fate quietly. However, I'm having trouble locating the canon source that states this. So it could be that the Onyx Skull remains as the force that maintains Fort Bones and Fort Zombie. However, as I said, my feeling is that both Onyx Skull and Emerald Claw were Seeker-heavy orders and as such both were disbanded... as part of the point was to undermine the influence of the Blood of Vol in Karrnath.

I see...but what if this Seeker order was, let's say, more open to another undead leader figure? A king instead of a queen?For a variation, what if Kaius kept the (always useful)necromantic expertise but toned down its religious tones? Something like the knightly department of the Ministry of the Dead? Bone knights and such are still a distinctive part of the Karrnathi military after all. I would wish to find some way to keep powerful tools such as these away from Vol and in my disposal if I was Kaius...Something to absorb potential talented Claw recruits.

#11
Hellcow
Aug 29, 2010 13:02:36
I see...but what if this Seeker order was, let's say, more open to another undead leader figure? A king instead of a queen?

What if it was?

The whole point of Eberron is that you can decide if that's a theme you want to explore. And it's already established that Kaius' harem that provides him with blood are in fact Seekers who see Kaius as a leader with Karrnath's bests interest at heart.

I personally prefer a Karrnath that is somewhat unstable. I prefer to have the struggle where the monarchy had to turn to the faith for support in the war... but that in the process gave the faith more power than it wanted, and is now trying to undermine it. In my campaign, Kaius is now using the Seekers again - as a scapegoat for the problems the nation is facing. Why are their famines? Because of the alliance with the Blood of Vol, who's unnatural magics blighted the land. Why did we lose battle X? Because of our reliance on the undead instead of living, courageous Karrns. It's the sort of thing that non-Seekers will easily latch onto. Something that's not fair - especially given the support the BoV gave Kaius during the war - but it's an easy way for Kaius to channel the frustration of the people who might otherwise turn that anger against him.

Basically, I like Kaius AS a flawed king. Because he's made terrible mistakes in the past. Ultimately, he'd be stronger if he brought the Karrnathi Seekers behind him instead of alienating them... but alienating them weakens a force he sees as a threat, and is a quick way to get support. It's not fait, but it's a very human thing to do.

With that said, assuming the Onyx Skull has been disbanded, I see most of its members as still being loyal to Karrnath and even to Kaius. The modern Emerald Claw is an extremist group and doesn't represent the view of the majority of Karrns or even the majority of Seekers. The more extremist members of the Onyx Skull would join the modern Emerald Claw. But many would accept dismissal and continue to do what they could for the nation, despite the unjust accusations being leveled against them. I am sure there are some Seekers in the Ministry of the Dead, kept because of their skills - but denying the rank their skills and achievements should grant them.

So if you're going for Kaius-as-Mastermind with the strongest force behind him, the Onyx Skull as a loyal, existing order makes sense. I prefer it as the counterpart to Emerald Claw in being the patriot Seekers who have accepted the dishonorable discharge, not understandign why their government would treat them so unjustly after their loyal service.
#12
stevesteam
Aug 05, 2011 16:51:35 This is really wonderful stuff.
#13
Ogiwan
Aug 06, 2011 21:31:16 A lot of the stuff on the Eberron boards is high quality. Any that Keith comments on are usually noteably more awesome.

That said, KARRNATH TRIUMPHANT!

That battle cry (and the constant threat of the Emerald Claw) so annoyed one of the groups I ran a campaign with that when the party encountered cloaked figures on a lift, one of the players readied an action to punch in the throat anybody who shouted, "Karrnath Triumphant!".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Hideous_Phidias Aug 20, 2010 23:09:15	The Emerald Claw as a group, are they crimials and outlaws in all of Khorvaire or just Karrnath? My group is having a problem with them, as most of are playing characters from Karrnath, see them as outlaws. Our Paladin from Breland has has the same take. He also happens to be a sentinel marsha, and a question of how much law enforcement power he has.
#2 Dargurd Aug 21, 2010 0:06:28	They were disbanded during the war by Regent Morrana as they were seen as a 'problem child' so to speak. As such certainly in Karrnath openly declaring membership would not be a good idea. Outside of Karrnath they may be seen as war criminals as they were a pretty nasty bunch that carried out a lot of extreme actions so to speak during the war. They do however make great bad guys that can be found anywhere. Remember Khorvaire is in a period of 'Cold War' that is smouldering and ready to ignite at any time. The Emerald Claw would love this to happen and in their eyes are still fighting this war.
#3 AvonRekaes Aug 21, 2010 1:02:31	Yeah, I think the reason Kaius outlawed the order, at least what he told the public, was because they were a bunch of fanatics guilty of war crimes. As war criminals, they would be wanted across Khorvaire. They're essentially a terrorist organization.
#4 night_falcon_02 Aug 21, 2010 8:26:36	Very much so. They often act as the terrorist arm of The Blood of Vol cults here and there. AS well as being seen as war criminals, how much power your pally player has is going to be fairly discretionary. The Eberron group I'm currently in just got done dealing with some Emerald Claw and brought them to justice, of course we are from Droaam and the Emerald Claw were taking over ruins in Droaam to stay for the long haul. So in this brought to justice meant we simply and indescriminatley killed all of them and burned the undead they had been making. Also worth noting that we weren't visitor's to Droaam about half the party actually grew up there.
#5 Alex_ Aug 21, 2010 10:58:53	The Emerald Claw as a group, are they crimials and outlaws in all of Khorvaire or just Karrnath? My group is having a problem with them, as most of are playing characters from Karrnath, see them as outlaws. Our Paladin from Breland has has the same take. He also happens to be a sentinel marsha, and a question of how much law enforcement power he has. Ever seen old pulp/adventure movies, especially Indiana Jones? You know how there's always that Nazi/Soviet organization with a leader who claims to be loyal to the government, but in actuality, seems to be turning the organization in pursuit of their own schemes, which always seems to include acquisition of supernatural artifacts and/or forgotten knowledge? They follow the protagonist across the world, have a couple of battles with them, and at one point they might capture them, only for the protagonist to escape and foil their plans. At that point they shake their fist and yell "Next time!" and the world keeps in spinning for another day. That's more or less the role of the Emerald Claw. Only they have more zombies.
#6 Hellcow Aug 23, 2010 12:40:10	Our Paladin from Breland has has the same take. He also happens to be a sentinel marsha, and a question of how much law enforcement power he has. Marsha Marsha Marsha! ... But assuming that was just a typo and he's actually a Sentinel MarshaL, he's basically like a PI. Full details are on page 148-149 of the Sharn: City of Towers books, but the key phrase is "Sentinel Marshals are usually employed as auxiliaries by regional authorities..." The point is that he is AUTHORIZED to enforce the law, but unless he's been assigned to do it by someone, the local authorities may not appreciate him exercising that authority. Which means, ultimately, it's up to you as DM and based on the local law enforcement agency. If he's got a good relationship with the local Watch, they may be thrilled to have the help. If on the other hand the local Watch is corrupt and in the pocket of the Order, they may actually chastize him and let the people go, for whatever reason they care to make up, or if he's killed people punish him for it. "We were in the middle of an undercover operation, and you just ruined it." When he's EMPLOYED as a Sentinel Marshal, he's got the backing of the house behind him and the local watch had best stay out of his way. But if he's just sticking his nose in other people's business for the fun of it, he's potentially stepping on toes.
#7 Hellcow Aug 23, 2010 12:59:15	As for the Emerald Claw, you've got multiple factors. Bear in mind that the Emerald Claw is essentially an onion... an organization with many layers. At its heart you have the members of the original chivalric order - elite soldiers, wizards, and necromancers dedicated to Karrnath and the Blood of Vol. These people were some of the finest soldiers in the war. From the 4E ECG: "Its members have been praised for bravery, innovation, and toughness as often as they have been accused of flaunting tradition and fomenting treason... none could dispute their discipline, training, and readiness to give their lives in defense of the kingdom of Karrnath." The Seeker chivalric orders - The Emerald Claw, the Onyx Skull, and others - played a vital role in the defense of the kingdom. But they were loyal first and foremost to the Queen of the Dead, and this made them a threat to the power of the Karrnathi crown... and every victory gave them and the Blood of Vol greater influence in Karrnath. Thus when they were no longer needed Kaius and Moranna turned on them and framed them, portraying them as fanatics, traitors, and criminals. So at the heart you have the survivors of that unit, elite and deadly soldiers. At the next layer you have the Karrns who have joined the Order since it was outlawed. These are Karrnathi patriots or loyal Seekers. Some of them despise Kaius for accepting the current peace. Others hate him for betraying the Blood of Vol after the faith saved the kingdom from defeat. Others simply believe that the Queen of the Dead will raise Karrnath to its rightful place in the world - or defeat death itself. So MANY Karrns have turned against the Order - but it still gets new Karrnathi recruits every day, and in a place like Sharn, the Karrnathi community is where members of the Claw are most likely to find support and shelter. And finally, you have the outermost layer - recent recruits from outside of Karrnath. The majority of these are veterans who feel (often rightfully so) that they have been abandoned by their own countries. Some are just in it for power and gold; others are nihilists who believe that it is time for the Queen of the Dead to reign over Galifar. This latter approach is one that often appeals to Cyran refugees. Their nation is a charnel pit; let Death reign over all. Most of these people are fanatics who are truly dedicated to their cause. However, there are also the rotten spots on the onion. These are the people who care nothing for the proclaimed goals of the Order or the principles of the Blood of Vol, but rather just seek personal power. Many of the leaders of the Order - including Erandis herself - fall into this category. The Order is simply a tool to these people, and the fanatic faith of their followers a convenient tool. While the majority of the EC are driven by principles, and while they have indeed been betrayed by Kaius and Moranna, the EC isn't one of the morally gray forces in the world. The EC pretty much exists to fill the role of pulp bad guy. They're COBRA, or the Nazis in Indiana Jones movies. They may believe in what they are doing, but whatever it is, odds are good you don't want it to happen. Thus, when you run into the Claw in Breland, it's not their status as war criminals outlawed by the King of Karrnath that people will care about; it's their status as an international terrorist organization that's likely struck all of the Five Nations at one point or another. So you'll generally only see them walking around in full regalia in public in a lawless city like Stormreach or Graywall... or when they are on a mission.
#8 ellorin Aug 29, 2010 9:52:14	At its heart you have the members of the original chivalric order - elite soldiers, wizards, and necromancers dedicated to Karrnath and the Blood of Vol. These people were some of the finest soldiers in the war. From the 4E ECG: "Its members have been praised for bravery, innovation, and toughness as often as they have been accused of flaunting tradition and fomenting treason... none could dispute their discipline, training, and readiness to give their lives in defense of the kingdom of Karrnath." The Seeker chivalric orders - The Emerald Claw, the Ebon Skull, and others - played a vital role in the defense of the kingdom. But they were loyal first and foremost to the Queen of the Dead, and this made them a threat to the power of the Karrnathi crown... and every victory gave them and the Blood of Vol greater influence in Karrnath. Thus when they were no longer needed Kaius and Moranna turned on them and framed them, portraying them as fanatics, traitors, and criminals. Fascinating as always. I have to ask though:was the Ebon Skull also denounced or did it become the loyalist necromantic chivalric order?
#9 Hellcow Aug 29, 2010 11:01:42	Fascinating as always. I have to ask though:was the Ebon Skull also denounced or did it become the loyalist necromantic chivalric order? First, my bad: It's the ONYX Skull, not the Ebon Skull. My thought was that both had been denounced... and that the Onyx Skull had simply accepted its fate quietly. However, I'm having trouble locating the canon source that states this. So it could be that the Onyx Skull remains as the force that maintains Fort Bones and Fort Zombie. However, as I said, my feeling is that both Onyx Skull and Emerald Claw were Seeker-heavy orders and as such both were disbanded... as part of the point was to undermine the influence of the Blood of Vol in Karrnath.
#10 ellorin Aug 29, 2010 12:14:16	Fascinating as always. I have to ask though:was the Ebon Skull also denounced or did it become the loyalist necromantic chivalric order? First, my bad: It's the ONYX Skull, not the Ebon Skull. My thought was that both had been denounced... and that the Onyx Skull had simply accepted its fate quietly. However, I'm having trouble locating the canon source that states this. So it could be that the Onyx Skull remains as the force that maintains Fort Bones and Fort Zombie. However, as I said, my feeling is that both Onyx Skull and Emerald Claw were Seeker-heavy orders and as such both were disbanded... as part of the point was to undermine the influence of the Blood of Vol in Karrnath. I see...but what if this Seeker order was, let's say, more open to another undead leader figure? A king instead of a queen?For a variation, what if Kaius kept the (always useful)necromantic expertise but toned down its religious tones? Something like the knightly department of the Ministry of the Dead? Bone knights and such are still a distinctive part of the Karrnathi military after all. I would wish to find some way to keep powerful tools such as these away from Vol and in my disposal if I was Kaius...Something to absorb potential talented Claw recruits.
#11 Hellcow Aug 29, 2010 13:02:36	I see...but what if this Seeker order was, let's say, more open to another undead leader figure? A king instead of a queen? What if it was? The whole point of Eberron is that you can decide if that's a theme you want to explore. And it's already established that Kaius' harem that provides him with blood are in fact Seekers who see Kaius as a leader with Karrnath's bests interest at heart. I personally prefer a Karrnath that is somewhat unstable. I prefer to have the struggle where the monarchy had to turn to the faith for support in the war... but that in the process gave the faith more power than it wanted, and is now trying to undermine it. In my campaign, Kaius is now using the Seekers again - as a scapegoat for the problems the nation is facing. Why are their famines? Because of the alliance with the Blood of Vol, who's unnatural magics blighted the land. Why did we lose battle X? Because of our reliance on the undead instead of living, courageous Karrns. It's the sort of thing that non-Seekers will easily latch onto. Something that's not fair - especially given the support the BoV gave Kaius during the war - but it's an easy way for Kaius to channel the frustration of the people who might otherwise turn that anger against him. Basically, I like Kaius AS a flawed king. Because he's made terrible mistakes in the past. Ultimately, he'd be stronger if he brought the Karrnathi Seekers behind him instead of alienating them... but alienating them weakens a force he sees as a threat, and is a quick way to get support. It's not fait, but it's a very human thing to do. With that said, assuming the Onyx Skull has been disbanded, I see most of its members as still being loyal to Karrnath and even to Kaius. The modern Emerald Claw is an extremist group and doesn't represent the view of the majority of Karrns or even the majority of Seekers. The more extremist members of the Onyx Skull would join the modern Emerald Claw. But many would accept dismissal and continue to do what they could for the nation, despite the unjust accusations being leveled against them. I am sure there are some Seekers in the Ministry of the Dead, kept because of their skills - but denying the rank their skills and achievements should grant them. So if you're going for Kaius-as-Mastermind with the strongest force behind him, the Onyx Skull as a loyal, existing order makes sense. I prefer it as the counterpart to Emerald Claw in being the patriot Seekers who have accepted the dishonorable discharge, not understandign why their government would treat them so unjustly after their loyal service.
#12 stevesteam Aug 05, 2011 16:51:35	This is really wonderful stuff.
#13 Ogiwan Aug 06, 2011 21:31:16	A lot of the stuff on the Eberron boards is high quality. Any that Keith comments on are usually noteably more awesome. That said, KARRNATH TRIUMPHANT! That battle cry (and the constant threat of the Emerald Claw) so annoyed one of the groups I ran a campaign with that when the party encountered cloaked figures on a lift, one of the players readied an action to punch in the throat anybody who shouted, "Karrnath Triumphant!".