Raven Queen material in Eberron: Is this even possible? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Raven Queen material in Eberron: Is this even possible?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
phoeris
Jul 31, 2009 0:40:03 I've been reading through the 4.0 Eberron books and I have a concern. How do you fit the extensive material for The Raven Queen found in the core books into Eberron? Can it even be done? Should it be done?

(By "material" I mean paragon paths, epic destinies, feats, fluff, etc.)

The Raven Queen's followers are portrayed as divine executioners of those who would defy the inevitability of death. None of the deities in the Eberron world have that kind of portfolio.

The Keeper could have been a solution but he's portrayed in 3.5 as a greedy hoarder of souls and in 4.0 in pretty much the same capacity. Him being a "Keeper of the Gates" judging souls as they pass into the great beyond is a footnote that most of the populace of Eberron wouldn't know about. He probably wouldn't be an appropriate adaptation to use with player characters.

The Blood of Vol is about death but all in the wrong way. They act more like Orcus, The Raven Queen's sworn enemy. No dice there.

There's really no one else that deals with death except Balinor. And that's more of a broad focus on the natural cycles of birth, life and death. Perhaps an obscure sect of Balinor as divine executioners?

Does anyone have any other ideas? Perhaps it shouldn't be bothering me but I feel like there should be a viable way of fitting in that material since the others work out more or less all the time.
#2
angelus_obscura
Jul 31, 2009 0:50:19 "To all things, there is a season."

The Raven Queen can be the patron god or totemic spirit of the Children of Winter, a druidic sect that espouses the harsher aspects of death. They believe that death is a natural phase (like winter) that everything must experience to usher in new life. And only the fittest, strongest should survive while the weak are culled. Granted, it's an extreme interpretation of her "core" ethos of hunting down those who defy death, but I think it's a perfect fit for the Children of Winter. Fundamentally, they both believe in the natural order of life and death.

Also, doesn't the Raven Queen preside over winter as well?

I hope that helps. :P
#3
phoeris
Jul 31, 2009 1:24:13 That does help actually....it's probably the best fit out there. Although I was hoping for something more "PC Friendly" to adapt the stuff into I can't see any any other way other than creating odd sects of preestablished religions. Children of Winter can certainly be made to work though.
#4
Alex_
Jul 31, 2009 1:45:42 The Blood of Vol doesn't support all Undead everywhere. They only support those Undead that continue the search for the true divinity of the blood. They don't go out of their way to hunt down and destroy them unless they present a practical threat, but neither do they seem to be given much respect or acknowledgment.

Still, Vol could work rather well for the Raven Queen if you simply tone down the fanatical hatred of all Undead and instead turn it into general contempt or selfishness regarding the secret of undeath.

Also similar to the Blood of Vol; the Raven Queen allows the existence of Undead so that they may continue doing important work: the Revenant race.
#5
angelus_obscura
Jul 31, 2009 2:39:59
The Blood of Vol doesn't support all Undead everywhere. They only support those Undead that continue the search for the true divinity of the blood. They don't go out of their way to hunt down and destroy them unless they present a practical threat, but neither do they seem to be given much respect or acknowledgment.

Still, Vol could work rather well for the Raven Queen if you simply tone down the fanatical hatred of all Undead and instead turn it into general contempt or selfishness regarding the secret of undeath.

Also similar to the Blood of Vol; the Raven Queen allows the existence of Undead so that they may continue doing important work: the Revenant race.

But the core tenets of the Blood of Vol, not to mention Vol herself, defy everything the Raven Queen represents. Everlasting life through mastery over one's own blood is counter to letting life take its course and end eventually. There is no life without death, and vice versa. They define each other, and there is the balance. Undeath/deathless breaks this balance by holding back the inevitable. And the main flaw with the "Vol working for RQ" shtick is that Vol herself hasn't even died yet (transformation to lich doesn't include dying). AND compounding her crimes against the natural order is her creation of vampires! At least revenants are worthy of their second chance by dying first before going back (RQ willing) to take care of bidness.
#6
Hellcow
Jul 31, 2009 3:38:12
The Raven Queen can be the patron god or totemic spirit of the Children of Winter, a druidic sect that espouses the harsher aspects of death.

I agree; this is what I would do. From the PGtE "The Children do not worship death, but simply embrace it as part of the natural order. They believe that disease, storm, and blight all play a vital role in weeding out the weak and infirm... Winter is harsh but necessary, and the strong shall survive and prosper."

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it in print, but in my opinion the Children of Winter do, for example, consider undead to be abominations that should be destroyed, as they defy the natural cycle of life and death. I've always seen this as a way for PCs to ally with the Children temporarily. And as mentioned in the PGtE, not all of the Children believe that the Winter is nigh; some believe that the Mourning is a false sign and seek to prove this to the others. As such, I've had two Child of Winter PCs in different campaigns, and it works well.

So, they don't worship an anthropomorphic goddess, but if you're looking for a way to use mechanical elements and such, I'd look to them.

If you DO want a goddess, well, it's essentially what Erandis Vol WANTS to be. So hey, let her acheive HER epic destiny and become that force. Perhaps, once she's fulfilled her family's quest, she'll actually be a just ruler.
#7
rekko
Jul 31, 2009 9:58:42 In my game one explanation I have for Revenants is that they are people who found their Divinity Within (knowingly or not).

Rekko
#8
Hellcow
Jul 31, 2009 10:21:35
In my game one explanation I have for Revenants is that they are people who found their Divinity Within (knowingly or not).

Certainly a valid approach.

Just to give my take on revenants...

If you're trying to keep the "Raven Queen has chosen to return you" angle, Eberron has an existing version of this in the Restful Watch. This sect of the SH reveres the Keeper and Aureon, stating that the Keeper is not an evil deity, but rather snatches souls from Dolurrh in order to preserve them from the fading effect of that plane, keeping them until the time is right for them to return to Eberron and fulfill their destinies. This is pretty much the revenant in a nutshell. You died and returned to life, changed by the experience; was it Aureon and the Keeper? What purpose do you have?

If you're not interested in the "Preserved by the deity of death" aspect, you have the simple fact that we've always said that you can go to Dolurrh and attempt to physically retrieve lingering souls from it - and that this is the only way to raise someone whose memories have faded to the point that they no longer wish to return. It could be that even if a body is reconstituted in the process, it's not quite the same as it was - hence the revenant. Alternately, it could be that the revenant is someone who has resisted the mists and pulled himself out of Dolurrh, perhaps when the planes were coterminous - that he refused to die and dragged himself back to death. So it's not about the action of a goddess, but rather a sheer force of will that refused to die... combined with a coterminous period weakening the walls between life and death.

A more radical thought would be to say that anyone raised from the dead comes back as a revenant. In my Eberron, it's not a simple thing to raise people from the dead. There's hints of this in Stormreach and Sharn; I play that many faiths want nothing to do with it, that many souls don't have the strength to escape Dolurrh, that there's always the risk that you'll pull the worng soul out... to say that it's possible for HEROES to return, but for the commoner death is generally the end (which is why the BoV takes it so seriously). If anyone who comes back from the dead through any means comes back as a creepy revenant, it makes it a little less appealing to the commoner.

But looking to this thread, I think you can certainly have the revenants without the Raven Queen.
#9
golbez57
Jul 31, 2009 13:40:38
If you're trying to keep the "Raven Queen has chosen to return you" angle, Eberron has an existing version of this in the Restful Watch. This sect of the SH reveres the Keeper and Aureon, stating that the Keeper is not an evil deity, but rather snatches souls from Dolurrh in order to preserve them from the fading effect of that plane, keeping them until the time is right for them to return to Eberron and fulfill their destinies.

This brings back the memorable experiences our gaming group at the time had in Diamond Lake. The Restful Watch encounters were very fun to DM. "Age of Worms" might be fun to try using 4E someday.
#10
phoeris
Jul 31, 2009 21:04:47 All I wanted out of this thread was maybe a couple good ideas.

Instead I got two solid ideas backed up by The Infernal Bovine himself and have a few good ideas on incorporating revenants into the Eberron world.

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 phoeris Jul 31, 2009 0:40:03	I've been reading through the 4.0 Eberron books and I have a concern. How do you fit the extensive material for The Raven Queen found in the core books into Eberron? Can it even be done? Should it be done? (By "material" I mean paragon paths, epic destinies, feats, fluff, etc.) The Raven Queen's followers are portrayed as divine executioners of those who would defy the inevitability of death. None of the deities in the Eberron world have that kind of portfolio. The Keeper could have been a solution but he's portrayed in 3.5 as a greedy hoarder of souls and in 4.0 in pretty much the same capacity. Him being a "Keeper of the Gates" judging souls as they pass into the great beyond is a footnote that most of the populace of Eberron wouldn't know about. He probably wouldn't be an appropriate adaptation to use with player characters. The Blood of Vol is about death but all in the wrong way. They act more like Orcus, The Raven Queen's sworn enemy. No dice there. There's really no one else that deals with death except Balinor. And that's more of a broad focus on the natural cycles of birth, life and death. Perhaps an obscure sect of Balinor as divine executioners? Does anyone have any other ideas? Perhaps it shouldn't be bothering me but I feel like there should be a viable way of fitting in that material since the others work out more or less all the time.
#2 angelus_obscura Jul 31, 2009 0:50:19	"To all things, there is a season." The Raven Queen can be the patron god or totemic spirit of the Children of Winter, a druidic sect that espouses the harsher aspects of death. They believe that death is a natural phase (like winter) that everything must experience to usher in new life. And only the fittest, strongest should survive while the weak are culled. Granted, it's an extreme interpretation of her "core" ethos of hunting down those who defy death, but I think it's a perfect fit for the Children of Winter. Fundamentally, they both believe in the natural order of life and death. Also, doesn't the Raven Queen preside over winter as well? I hope that helps. :P
#3 phoeris Jul 31, 2009 1:24:13	That does help actually....it's probably the best fit out there. Although I was hoping for something more "PC Friendly" to adapt the stuff into I can't see any any other way other than creating odd sects of preestablished religions. Children of Winter can certainly be made to work though.
#4 Alex_ Jul 31, 2009 1:45:42	The Blood of Vol doesn't support all Undead everywhere. They only support those Undead that continue the search for the true divinity of the blood. They don't go out of their way to hunt down and destroy them unless they present a practical threat, but neither do they seem to be given much respect or acknowledgment. Still, Vol could work rather well for the Raven Queen if you simply tone down the fanatical hatred of all Undead and instead turn it into general contempt or selfishness regarding the secret of undeath. Also similar to the Blood of Vol; the Raven Queen allows the existence of Undead so that they may continue doing important work: the Revenant race.
#5 angelus_obscura Jul 31, 2009 2:39:59	The Blood of Vol doesn't support all Undead everywhere. They only support those Undead that continue the search for the true divinity of the blood. They don't go out of their way to hunt down and destroy them unless they present a practical threat, but neither do they seem to be given much respect or acknowledgment. Still, Vol could work rather well for the Raven Queen if you simply tone down the fanatical hatred of all Undead and instead turn it into general contempt or selfishness regarding the secret of undeath. Also similar to the Blood of Vol; the Raven Queen allows the existence of Undead so that they may continue doing important work: the Revenant race. But the core tenets of the Blood of Vol, not to mention Vol herself, defy everything the Raven Queen represents. Everlasting life through mastery over one's own blood is counter to letting life take its course and end eventually. There is no life without death, and vice versa. They define each other, and there is the balance. Undeath/deathless breaks this balance by holding back the inevitable. And the main flaw with the "Vol working for RQ" shtick is that Vol herself hasn't even died yet (transformation to lich doesn't include dying). AND compounding her crimes against the natural order is her creation of vampires! At least revenants are worthy of their second chance by dying first before going back (RQ willing) to take care of bidness.
#6 Hellcow Jul 31, 2009 3:38:12	The Raven Queen can be the patron god or totemic spirit of the Children of Winter, a druidic sect that espouses the harsher aspects of death. I agree; this is what I would do. From the PGtE "The Children do not worship death, but simply embrace it as part of the natural order. They believe that disease, storm, and blight all play a vital role in weeding out the weak and infirm... Winter is harsh but necessary, and the strong shall survive and prosper." I'm not sure if I've mentioned it in print, but in my opinion the Children of Winter do, for example, consider undead to be abominations that should be destroyed, as they defy the natural cycle of life and death. I've always seen this as a way for PCs to ally with the Children temporarily. And as mentioned in the PGtE, not all of the Children believe that the Winter is nigh; some believe that the Mourning is a false sign and seek to prove this to the others. As such, I've had two Child of Winter PCs in different campaigns, and it works well. So, they don't worship an anthropomorphic goddess, but if you're looking for a way to use mechanical elements and such, I'd look to them. If you DO want a goddess, well, it's essentially what Erandis Vol WANTS to be. So hey, let her acheive HER epic destiny and become that force. Perhaps, once she's fulfilled her family's quest, she'll actually be a just ruler.
#7 rekko Jul 31, 2009 9:58:42	In my game one explanation I have for Revenants is that they are people who found their Divinity Within (knowingly or not). Rekko
#8 Hellcow Jul 31, 2009 10:21:35	In my game one explanation I have for Revenants is that they are people who found their Divinity Within (knowingly or not). Certainly a valid approach. Just to give my take on revenants... If you're trying to keep the "Raven Queen has chosen to return you" angle, Eberron has an existing version of this in the Restful Watch. This sect of the SH reveres the Keeper and Aureon, stating that the Keeper is not an evil deity, but rather snatches souls from Dolurrh in order to preserve them from the fading effect of that plane, keeping them until the time is right for them to return to Eberron and fulfill their destinies. This is pretty much the revenant in a nutshell. You died and returned to life, changed by the experience; was it Aureon and the Keeper? What purpose do you have? If you're not interested in the "Preserved by the deity of death" aspect, you have the simple fact that we've always said that you can go to Dolurrh and attempt to physically retrieve lingering souls from it - and that this is the only way to raise someone whose memories have faded to the point that they no longer wish to return. It could be that even if a body is reconstituted in the process, it's not quite the same as it was - hence the revenant. Alternately, it could be that the revenant is someone who has resisted the mists and pulled himself out of Dolurrh, perhaps when the planes were coterminous - that he refused to die and dragged himself back to death. So it's not about the action of a goddess, but rather a sheer force of will that refused to die... combined with a coterminous period weakening the walls between life and death. A more radical thought would be to say that anyone raised from the dead comes back as a revenant. In my Eberron, it's not a simple thing to raise people from the dead. There's hints of this in Stormreach and Sharn; I play that many faiths want nothing to do with it, that many souls don't have the strength to escape Dolurrh, that there's always the risk that you'll pull the worng soul out... to say that it's possible for HEROES to return, but for the commoner death is generally the end (which is why the BoV takes it so seriously). If anyone who comes back from the dead through any means comes back as a creepy revenant, it makes it a little less appealing to the commoner. But looking to this thread, I think you can certainly have the revenants without the Raven Queen.
#9 golbez57 Jul 31, 2009 13:40:38	If you're trying to keep the "Raven Queen has chosen to return you" angle, Eberron has an existing version of this in the Restful Watch. This sect of the SH reveres the Keeper and Aureon, stating that the Keeper is not an evil deity, but rather snatches souls from Dolurrh in order to preserve them from the fading effect of that plane, keeping them until the time is right for them to return to Eberron and fulfill their destinies. This brings back the memorable experiences our gaming group at the time had in Diamond Lake. The Restful Watch encounters were very fun to DM. "Age of Worms" might be fun to try using 4E someday.
#10 phoeris Jul 31, 2009 21:04:47	All I wanted out of this thread was maybe a couple good ideas. Instead I got two solid ideas backed up by The Infernal Bovine himself and have a few good ideas on incorporating revenants into the Eberron world. :D