In our case, I have been genuinely surprised by the players. The Blood of Vol has become the most popular religion(most characters were actually LG), with the Traveler alone tieing to second place with the entire Sovereign Host. Only one player has been consistently supporting the Silver Flame whereas the Kalashtar PC, as would be expected, walked the Path of Light.. Furthermore, the Host has been the religion of choice for those characters who don't really consider the subject of religion and only claim to follow theirs because most people seem to do. The truly devoted ones chose the other religions. Somehow the Host hasn't inspired a true believer. Otherwise, most characters have been very devout in our group.
So...how are things in your case?
Just judging from people I've talked to, I've generally seen a strong negative reaction to the Church of the Silver Flame, with people tending to focus on its extremists and zealots as opposed to the noble intentions of the moderates and the good it can do. The cleric in the group above recognizes that there is corruption in the church but also sees the good, and is seeking through his adventures to better understand the nature of corruption so he can help cleanse the church in the future.
At the moment, the cleric I'm playing has chosen to worship the Prophecy itself, believing in the power we can find if we embrace our destined roles. As such, he plays a little like a warlord; his healing words are essentially "Rise, my friend - it is not your time to die today!" He's a divine oracle, and that plays right into things. He actually started as a variant priest of the Sovereign Host (he's dragonborn, and it was a twist on Thir), but the Prophecy faith evolved naturally over time; I see it a little as Tira Miron beginning as a paladin of Dol Arrah and becoming a paladin of the Silver Flame as she found her calling.
With all that aside, the Traveler is probably my favorite single deity... but personally, I like all of the faiths of Eberron.
my older brother tends toward the Flame and never comes off as a zealot or bigot.
Oh, certainly - people who choose to PLAY the Flame usually see its positive side. I just meant that in observing and talking with other groups, it's the one I've tended to see the strongest negative reaction to. But again, looking at my group, the changeling cleric certainly tries to embody its positive aspects... and the debates between him and the BoV paladin are some of the highlights of our sessions.
1) Shifter Ranger (former farmer). Worships the Sovereigns, especially Arawai. The character prays regurarly but the player doesn't roleplay it too deeply. He makes casual remarks, however, like "Sovereigns protect us from the likes of you" etc. And sometimes he informs me that his character goes to a temple or makes an offering.
2) Elven (Valenar) Druid. The PC is somehow torn on the inside. She has serious doubts about the ancestor worship but Eldeen druidic tradition is a bit exotic to her. She wants to learn it but is inexperienced. This will change, however, because the group is actually following her to Greenheart where she hopes to resolve her inner turmoils. The player doesn't mention religious matters often.
3) Human (Brelish) Psion. Agnostic, cares for himself and ironizes religion. (The player has left the group recently as has the character.)
4) Elven (Valenar) Barbarian. Brother of the druid. The PC has a relaxed attitude towards ancestor worhip and actually doesn't care. (The player has left the group recently as has the character.)
5) Warforged Monk. A new character, hasn't been played yet. I think it will be a religious PC but concentrating on its inner development. I don't expect the player aligning his character to any existing religion but I can be wrong.
As for popularity.
1) Sovereigns are regarded among the PCs universally as "Gods" and I stress the fact that this religion is encountered pretty everywhere.
2) The first two characters handle druids (Wardens of the Woods) with much respect. The ranger may revere Arawai but Wardens are embodyment of the Reaches for him and actually, the character exhibits some syncretism - Arawai worship and Druidism are very close to each other for him. The elven druid is on her path to find herself but was shocked by learning of the druidic controversies in the Reaches. Now, she is confused.
3) Silver Flame is hated by the shifter and universally very suspicious in the Reaches. I underlined that with some encounters that involved ancient "wrongs" of the church (e.g. restless spirits of shifters killed during the Purge that the PCs had to put to rest by burying their bones properly, etc.) I plan on confronting the group with positive aspects of the Church in future, though.
4) Blood of Vol - almost never heard of. I had the PCs accompanied by a LN BoV cleric as an NPC for some time (plot reasons for the future) but they accepted his explanation that his religion was a private thing and didn't explore for more information. They befriended the NPC, though, and although he is actually an adversary, he's a reluctant one and likes the PCs. In future he will be pressed by his superiors to act against them but he will certainly use nonlethal force and will feel badly for his deeds. On the other hand, the BoV (and Erandis herself) will prove as a possible ally (common enemies) and this NPC will play a role in the uneasy truce.
5) Others - the Prophecy will play a major role in the story. The druid's father (whom she is actually looking for) left Valenar and followed the calling of Kalok Shash. That will be their first encounter with "the different flame". No encounters with other religions, yet.
and the debates between him and the BoV paladin are some of the highlights of our sessions.
Sounds very interesting-our only Flamist character who associated with the Vol worshippers was actually Kalok Sash, so he didn't really care as long as they aided in the battle against the Lords of Dust. Thus, we never head any of that.Could you give us a token example
?I don't think anybody else did more than lip service, but that's typical for our group regardless of setting. Unless you're actually a divine character, most of us don't bother with religion.
Another player may run the 4E EB adventure when it comes out. I want to talk the group into being Ceureleon Sign folks or at least an adventuring/investigation agency that hunts down the supernatural. The one player is a Constantine (comic) fan and WOD fan and may like playing a Sorc/Bard who smokes, wears a trenchcoat. Anyway I want to play an elf who worships the Flame, and is an Avenger (4E). I do not want to play him as a Zealot or super serious guy. He will be a hunter of supernatural evil and defender of the good folk. He will be unaligned or evil. He will do whatever it takes to make bad things pay. He won't be preachy and he does not care 100% for the Church's teachings. Living in Sharn helped develop this attitude though. Plus he is multiclassing as a cleric (his sword will be his Holy Symbol and weapon) but he still will not be a sanctimonious jerk ;).
The elf is a Valenar so no religious attitude there.
Really? I have always considered them as one of the most religious cultures in Eberron. Granted, the notion of a "god" would be alien for most of them, but still that doesn't mean they shoud be regarded as a non-religious people. Honoring the ancestors(the Spirits of the Past) and emulating their deeds is the core of Valenar society, whereas the Keepers of the past are supposed to have a tremendous effect on Tairnadal society(according to the ECS, they could challenge the High King himself). And if emulating the heroic ancestor is the core of such a warlike civilisation, every single swing of a Valaes Tairn weapon is a religious act. YMMV of course...it's just how I always felt about the culture.
Another player may run the 4E EB adventure when it comes out. I want to talk the group into being Ceureleon Sign folks or at least an adventuring/investigation agency that hunts down the supernatural. The one player is a Constantine (comic) fan and WOD fan and may like playing a Sorc/Bard who smokes, wears a trenchcoat. Anyway I want to play an elf who worships the Flame, and is an Avenger (4E). I do not want to play him as a Zealot or super serious guy. He will be a hunter of supernatural evil and defender of the good folk. He will be unaligned or evil. He will do whatever it takes to make bad things pay. He won't be preachy and he does not care 100% for the Church's teachings. Living in Sharn helped develop this attitude though. Plus he is multiclassing as a cleric (his sword will be his Holy Symbol and weapon) but he still will not be a sanctimonious jerk .
Sounds like fun.
This is much different than FR games I have been in that are so god/religioncentric that it almost bothers me. In those games the gods almost shaped how the player ran his PC.
I know the Valenar are into Ancestor Worship but the player is no that devoted about the whole deal. He is just a merc with no faith at all. It is just how he is playing his pc.
This is much different than FR games I have been in that are so god/religioncentric that is almost bothers me. In those games the gods almost shaped how the player ran his PC.
Fair enough. And I completely agree with your FR sentiments over the subject.
Really? I was always considered them as one of the most religious cultures in Eberron. Granted, the notion of a "god" would be alien for most of them, but still that doesn't mean they shoud be regarded as a non-religious people. Honoring the ancestors(the Spirits of the Past) and emulating their deeds is the core of Valenar society.
I'd have to agree. Religion is the entire reason for the martial culture of the Tairnadal; they fight in order to honor their ancestors and ideally to embody their spirits. This shouldn't stop you from having a particular Valenar who has no faith... but as a CULTURE, I would agree that they are one of the most devout in Eberron.
Of course the elven religions are very different from other faiths. Given that you're dealing with ancestors instead of gods and the ancestor chooses the child instead of the other way around, you've got lots of room for strange match-ups. In one of my groups I had a Valenar from a line of swordsmen who always followed a particular male swordsman, who was instead chosen by a female archer. The character stole his father's sword and left Valenar, since his refusal to accept his fate was shameful for his family, thus becoming a PC. Throughout the game, there was a constant struggle as to whether he should accept his patron spirit or not (especially any time it was useful for him to use a bow in the game).
You also have the fact that there are certainly Valenar "heroes" who were ruthless, cruel, or even mad. What does the good elf do when he's marked by the most brutal murderer in Tairnadal history? It's his religious duty to emulate this ancestor's terrible deeds, even if they are abhorrent to him; it's part of his destiny, and one can assume he was chosen for a reason. Will he accept his fate and force himself to become a vicious killer? Or will he rebel and seek to turn his back on his faith? If so, can he escape it - or like Oedipus, will he be forced onto the path of his destiny?
But yes. Tairnadal religion is very different from the others, but I do see the Tairnadal as, overall, a culture driven by faith. This is even reflected by their dress; the zaelta veil and zaelshin amulet are worn together with the concept that in battle, the warrior's face is hidden, and the opponent sees only the seal of the ancestor - playing to the idea that the elf fights to honor the ancestor, not for his own glory.
I'm currently playing a Valenar Ranger who manifested an Aberrant Dragonmark at the end of the Last War; an idea born out of Hellcow's own "Dangers of Taer Valaestas" Expeditionary Dispatch article. One of the main (and most enjoyable) conflicts I've been attempting to explore/flesh out is how a devout elf deals with being cast out of his own religion and, consequently, his culture as a result of his Mark.
Some of the questions I've encountered:
If he is considered a broken vessel that is unfit to emulate a heroic ancestor, does this "excommunication" preclude his own faith?
To what extent do the beliefs that he was raised with affect him? Can he realistically continue to believe that he can honor his Ancestor if he was raised in a culture that would also have him believe the answer to that question is a resounding "No"?
How do other Tairnadal react to him? Is he a stain upon their collective glory that must be removed? Is he instead pitied and shunned- a cautionary tale to young elves? Or something entirely different.
Outside of those considerations:
He was chosen by a heroic Ancestor at birth. Under the Tairnadal belief set, are the Ancestors limited in their vision, in that they chose an elf who would manifest a mark? Are they then fallible? Or is there, then, the potential of some unseen or unperceived purpose? A purpose that the Tairnadal Keepers of the Past do not see or choose to ignore?
Any opinions?
He was chosen by a heroic Ancestor at birth. Under the Tairnadal belief set, are the Ancestors limited in their vision, in that they chose an elf who would manifest a mark? Are they then fallible? Or is there, then, the potential of some unseen or unperceived purpose? A purpose that the Tairnadal Keepers of the Past do not see or choose to ignore?
A factor to consider is that multiple living elves are chosen by the same spirit. It's considered a challenge to the elf to become the greatest embodiment of the ancestor, and this is a task they can certainly fail at; so it's no certain destiny. The patron spirit may see POTENTIAL in the descendant - but there's no assurance that the descendant will live up to this potential. That's a failure of the frail mortal, not the spirit.
With that said, I think you could certainly make the case that PCs are touched by destiny and that the spirit is in some way aware of that - that while the mortal elves may see the aberrant elf as a flawed vessel, the spirit may have been aware of it when making a choice. Taking the archer elf mentioned above the idea is that he DOES have the potential to be the great archer - but will he struggle against that, or embrace it?
(Of course, this assumes that you believe the ancestral spirits do literally exist... which, this being Eberron, is never a sure thing!)
(Of course, this assumes that you believe the ancestral spirits do literally exist... which, this being Eberron, is never a sure thing!)
Heh, I'd certainly considered that as well and at one point wondered at the possibility of graft among the Keepers of the Past. Say for instance Mom and Pop elf want their kiddo to be "chosen" by Spirit X. Would the Keeper of the Past be above reproach or might he/she be susceptible to a few GP to fudge the results of the "reading"?
In fact, right now I am DYING to get a chance to play a human or deva Avenger of the Silver Flame. I REALLY want to play this. In fact, I want to play it so bad that I am currently looking for an Eberron group online/in Toronto that I can play in instead of run (starting mid March).
Heh, I'd certainly considered that as well and at one point wondered at the possibility of graft among the Keepers of the Past. Say for instance Mom and Pop elf want their kiddo to be "chosen" by Spirit X. Would the Keeper of the Past be above reproach or might he/she be susceptible to a few GP to fudge the results of the "reading"?
It's really a question of whether you believe in the faith or not. In theory, a revenant blade is literally guided by their ancestral spirit. Personally, I see "ancestral guidance" as a logical explanation for Elven Accuracy. The literal existence of the ancestral spirits doesn't have any impact on the overall question of the existence of gods in Eberron, because the spirits aren't gods and can only influence the world through their descendants. Nonetheless, if you do hold that they CAN influence the world through their descendants, it's a risky move for a Keeper to lie.
This was basically the point of the character I mentioned. He was chosen by the archer, but he WANTED to be the swordsman. He doesn't HAVE to emulate the archer, but if that's truly his destiny, by turning his back on it he cuts himself off from ancestral guidance - because the swordsman spirit won't touch him. So does he accept the guidance of the archer and potentially become the greatest archer of the age? Or seek to become a great swordsman on his own with no ancestral guidance?
Lest the spirits sound petty in this, I'll note that the idea is that it's by emulating the deeds of the ancestor that the elf opens himself to spiritual guidance. As he emulates the ancestor, he becomes a more suitable vessel for the spirit, allowing it to guide him more effectively. If he doesn't emulate its deeds, it CAN'T help him, because he is intentionally making himself a flawed vessel that the spirit cannot bond with. The archer cannot help him if he refuses to lift a bow, and the murderer can't help a chosen descendant if that elf insists on following the lawful good path.
Like the kalashtar, this spiritual guidance is supposed to be less "I'm going to have a chat with my spirit buddy" and more that as you emulate the ancestor, it guides you through instinct and inspiration. When you're aiming your bow, you don't have a little voice saying "more to the left". You can think of it a little like the Jedi - trust your feelings and your instincts, and let the spirit flow through you. And thus, if the elf is emulating the WRONG spirit, he'll never achieve this bond. So a Keeper lying to a child would essentially doom the child to a life of mediocrity - or at least walking a hard path with only his mortal skills to serve him.
Meanwhile, from a religious perspective, bear in mind that the Tairnadal believe that through this they preserve their heroes and keep them from dissolving into Dolurrh. The mortal elf gains skill through his bond to the spirit - but the spirit continues to exist. So the Aereni physically preserve their ancestors through the deathless, while the Tairnadal spiritually preserve their ancestors by serving as living vessels for them. In principle it's actually very similar to the kalashtar, with multiple living people serving as communal hosts for spirits that guide the host at an intuitive level - but the elf spirits aren't physically bound to the host/bloodline in the same way the kalashtar quori are. My point here is that this is why the faith is so important to the Tairnadal. Not only do they gain skill in the process - becoming the avatar of the hero of the past - but they literally keep the spirit from falling into the mists of Dolurrh. Hence bringing shame on your family for refusing to emulate your patron ancestor; this is a selfish act that threatens the survival of a great hero. You may not LIKE the deeds of Murderin' Jael, but he killed a thousand giants and was responsible for the survival of the tribe of Calaeyn; will you let his spirit fade because you aren't willing to get blood on his hands? And you who simply doesn't believe in the spirits - if all Tairnadal were to follow your path, then the spirits would certainly cease to exist, for it is our faith and our sacrifice that keeps them with us.
Anyhow, ramblin', but there you go.
Coming back to the aberrant mark, there's lots of questions. DOES this make you an unfit heir and incapable of carrying the spirit? Does it really have no impact on anything? Or for a bizarre twist... what if the ancestor HAD an aberrant mark, one of the first ever to exist (and tens of thousands of years before the other marks appeared) - but because no other marks were known, no one at the time knew what it was? It could be that your mark makes you the one person who CAN truly bond with the spirit, and that his ancestral blade can only be mastered by one bearing your mark... but that this fact has been lost to history.
That's really scary. How could it happen? How does such an event affect the prophecy? And if the truth ever comes to the surface it's "insert PC's name" hunting season for Eberron's most powerful groups.
Truly a wonderful idea
.That's really scary. How could it happen?
Want to make it weirder? What if you uncover evidence that at the end of the Age of Giants, the giants developed the thirteen known dragonmarks, with a handful of other races developing aberrant marks. Just as the War of the Mark caused aberrant marks to all but disappear for centuries, what if the devastation of Xen'drik caused the thirteen dragonmarks to disappear, only to reappear tens of thousands of years later on the races that bear them today? As such, what if the "Giants were going to destroy Eberron!" story used to justify the actions of the dragons is pure propaganda - and they actually sought to prevent the giants from unlocking the full potential of their dragonmarks, something that only the line of Vol has come close to doing in the modern age?
It's an offbeat idea... but finding a creation forge in Xen'drik that actually requires the Mark of Making would certainly raise interesting questions!
Want to make it weirder? What if you uncover evidence that at the end of the Age of Giants, the giants developed the thirteen known dragonmarks, with a handful of other races developing aberrant marks. Just as the War of the Mark caused aberrant marks to all but disappear for centuries, what if the devastation of Xen'drik caused the thirteen dragonmarks to disappear, only to reappear tens of thousands of years later on the races that bear them today? As such, what if the "Giants were going to destroy Eberron!" story used to justify the actions of the dragons is pure propaganda - and they actually sought to prevent the giants from unlocking the full potential of their dragonmarks, something that only the line of Vol has come close to doing in the modern age?
It's an offbeat idea... but finding a creation forge in Xen'drik that actually requires the Mark of Making would certainly raise interesting questions!
I knew we couldn't trust those scaly interlopers .The thing is, one of my ideas for our new campaign has a Giant metropolis that, in order to avoid the draconic horde, time-travelled to the future, i.e. 998 YK. If they also proved to have dragonmarks...oh boy, the consequences...
In fact, right now I am DYING to get a chance to play a human or deva Avenger of the Silver Flame. I REALLY want to play this. In fact, I want to play it so bad that I am currently looking for an Eberron group online/in Toronto that I can play in instead of run (starting mid March).
Sounds great!
Hm...considering my players, the Deva would be a servant of the Traveller, offering "gifts" through centuries. Many such stories would be attributed to the Traveler him/herself...the Deva might even claim that through these deeds she's channeling her patron deity.
How the Aberrant Mark has affected him thus far and what role it plays in his life and his future have been the big questions for me as I've been doing my best to make the Mark central to the character concept; something that he struggles with and is a burden to bear as opposed to being essentially a "cool ability" that he flings about willy-nilly. The ideas put forth here are great for making it more of the former and less of the latter.
So far I've tried my best to put forth possibles and theories as to the reason and purpose of the Mark as the "truth" behind them is very much at the DMs end of the sandbox and, to be honest, I like the surprises he throws our way. Some of those possibles include...
The Ancestor that chose my elf is remembered among the Tairnadal, like many Ancestors, for his *bravery*. Though this could certainly extended to run-of-the mill "stand against a bunch of giants while your buddies escape" type cajones, my DM and I liked earlier posts that suggested these Honored Ancestors could be less than savory individuals. As a result, this Ancestor's reknowned *bravery* also included letting many elven slaves die to save a few other elves important to the rebellion and having the spine to make that decision.
Recently, my character had a vision of a previous heir to this spirit provoking a possessed friend into accidentally slaying their own child to snap said friend out of a kill-crazy rampage. Certainly not a nice thing to do, but it saved the lives of many others who would've fallen to that blade...
Coincidentally (or not, depending on how you view destiny and the nature of Prophecy and Marks), my character manifests an Aberrant Mark that radiates an aura of Fear. Is this mere happenstance? Or was he chosen because only a person with that kind of bravery could control the fear generated by the Mark and not be crippled by it's power? Was he destined to fall from the grace of his culture and bear this burden because no one else was able? All stuff I'm looking forward to finding out the answers to...
You may not LIKE the deeds of Murderin' Jael, but he killed a thousand giants and was responsible for the survival of the tribe of Calaeyn; will you let his spirit fade because you aren't willing to get blood on his hands?
Murderin' Jael?
Now I have a vision in my mind of the Tairnadal elves as having a very "rural American" folk religion. Murderin' Jael, Dead-Eye Sarna, Black Nerris of the Peak . . .
Now I have a vision in my mind of the Tairnadal elves as having a very "rural American" folk religion.
Hey, Xen'drik was a big place, and the Tairnadal came from a wide range of backgrounds. Some had more of an "urban American" feel, like the Wu-Tang Warclan.
Hey, Xen'drik was a big place, and the Tairnadal came from a wide range of backgrounds. Some had more of an "urban American" feel, like the Wu-Tang Warclan.
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:P (seriously that's a funny post, but so very, very wrong)
I have to say this has turned into a really interesting discussion. The information and twist on how the dragonmarks formed could be very tasty indeed. It could also explain why the Giants blew up one of the moons, aside from trying to shift Dal Quor away. Perhaps they foresaw the power and (mis)use of such power over life and death. Maybe the giants did a good thing in sequestering the power of the Mark of Death. Maybe that's all that's stopping Vol from using her Mark of Death as a liche. She needs Crya to be rebuilt so she can call on it's power even as an undead creature. And of course the PC's just happen to come across the Moon Breaker arcane complex hidden deep within the ruins of Xen'Drik...
Maybe that's all that's stopping Vol from using her Mark of Death as a liche. She needs Crya to be rebuilt so she can call on it's power even as an undead creature. And of course the PC's just happen to come across the Moon Breaker arcane complex hidden deep within the ruins of Xen'Drik...
I love this idea. Too bad my campaign is bent on the Cult of Tiamat. The Cult has secretly contracted a "orbital skyship" from House Lyrandar in my game (disguised as rich investors of course). It is basically a satelite that gets radiant energy beamed into it (from recently discovered dragon temples)
and then it dedirects the the energy onto the planet.
I figured only fiend magic could come up with such an idea. I also would think that the giants and dragons could also come up with similar concepts ("Moonbreaker). In my mind the dragons would not put those ideas to work because they are a disaster waiting to happen, but the giants and fiends could care less. Also In my games there was a civilization before the Age of Dragons and Age of Demons millions of years ago. That civilization was strictly humans and the only fantasy elements was magic. No different races or monsters. Basically the humans were it, until their magical society experimented with Dimension Hopping, then BAM we get the EB we know today. So if the Pcs ever discover that magic the world will surly be in trouble ;).
then the kalashtar philosophy and the Dark Six (particularly cause of the names)
In my experience, the funny thing about Eberron is that the Silver Flame religion really dominates all of the major religion-oriented plot hooks in the campaign setting. If you want a plot involving inquisitions and evil crusader-types, you use the Silver Flame. If you want a plot involving a religious order that is fighting to prevent the destruction of the world, you use the Silver Flame. If you want a plot involving an evil cult summoning evil beyond human reckoning, you can use a Cult of the Dragon Below, or you can use a cult of those who worship the demon within the Silver Flame.
In many ways, the dominance of the Church of the Silver Flame is probably due to a lack of serious competition from other organized religions. The Blood of Vol is an organized Church, but it has lost Karnathi royal support, is even more regional than the Church of the Silver Flame, and is obviously evil enough from a player perspective that it isn't very appealing. The only major competition to the Church of the Silver Flame probably comes from the Gatekeepers, but that religion is really limited only to rangers and druids.
It seems to me that the Sovereign Host only ever plays a minor role in Eberron. Compared to the Church of the Silver Flame, the Sovereign Host has never really gotten that significant of a treatment, particularly in the Eberron Player's Guide itself. There are no named Sovereign Host priests used as major NPCs, and few potential plot hooks involving the religion. The only interesting use of the Sovereign Host that I have seen is in the existence of a fringe sect that claims the Host are Dragons.
I really think the Sovereign Host religion needs to be given some more teeth in 4E.
...
Will Hellcow add something to this? His insights have already opened my eyes regarding the Dragonmarked Houses (thread EberRun: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1147557 ) What about the Sovereign religion?
and is obviously evil enough from a player perspective that it isn't very appealing.
Actually, I'm in doubt considering the "obvious evil" of the Blood of Vol. Creepy? Definitely. But obviously evil? Yes, they do raise the undead and do honour their undead champions as heroes and martyrs but does this automatically mean evil? It's not as if the players are supposed to know of the self-proclaimed Queen of Death. Once they do find out...that's another story and it sepends on the characters (in our case, every PC follower of the Blood that did find out simply called randis a fraud and a heretic. The fat that they were aware that their religion didn't begin with Erandis did help).
Otherwise, I'm in agreement: The Silver Flame has much more character, uniqueness and presence than most religions, definitely compared to the Sovereign Host. The church is better organised, more vocal and more aggressive in its battle against evil. In our case, though, these traits somehow didn't make the PCs warm to it.
At the end of the day, for full-blown spectacle and sesationalist coverage, the Silver Flame wins hands down. And in my opinion it is meant to be. The religion is a very new one, an underdog, and a system of belief that by it's very nature and "crusade" is opposed to evil in all it's forms. It's a structured, dogmatic belief that takes the fight to the badguys, so it's always going to get more media time. And for the most part they are the good guys, attempting to do the right thing. It's just that a few bad apples seem to always flash in players minds.
Then you look at the Sovereign Host, which while never as flashy or as front-page material as the Silver Flame, is probably the most successful belief system on Eberron. And the reason behind that is also the reason behind why it never "seems to get as much air-time" as the Silver Flame. The Sovereigns are a persvasive and persuasive belief system that incorporate everything you say and do into their religion.
As in the World, so are the gods. As are the gods, so is the world. In every harvesting Arawai is praised, by the very act of harvesting. Every roll of the dice is a quick prayer and action directed towards Olladra. The Sovereigns are not about flash and spectacle, they are the quiet calm and very commonly upheld belief of most people. Why waste time standing there chanting to unknown deities or opening a vein or going on holy crusades? If you want to venerate the gods, do so by action, be bold like Dol Arrah, strong like Dol Dorn, economically creative like Kol Korran.
It's not that the Sovereigns are forgotten, it's that they are so integrated, so a part of most people on Khorvaire that they really don't take on the pomp and ceremony of say, the Silver Flame. This is a belief system imported from Sarlona that has survived and integrated every other major belief system that it has come across (excluding of course the Silver Flame, but the Sovereigns are already making inroads in that area). It has integrated the orcs and goblin beliefs, the halflings and the dwarves, heck even some of the Giants recognise a link between the Rusheme ancient deities and the Sorvereign Host.
I don't think the Sovereigns need much of a push in 4e. I think that players need a push and a rethink on just how to incorporate that belief system into their game, both as players and as DM's. I'll go out on a limb here and hazzard a guess that most D&D players are from western religious backgrounds (whatever they may be). As such they find more affinity and have more of a cultural "understanding" of say the Silver Flame. I'm not attempting to draw analogies (positive, negative or otherwise), merely highlight how we will contextualise our understanding of fantasy based upon background social, regional and political upbringing.
The Sovereigns would not particularly fit into a classic western belief system (or at least the more common monotheistic systems that are currently ascendant). As such I would again go out on a limb by stating that players as such have a harder time "getting" the Sovereign Host belief system. I disagree with SkyOdin's statement about the Sovereigns needing "teeth" in 4e. Instead I would posit that it's better for a longer section be devoted to helping explain to players and DM's alike how the Sovereigns work and should be played as such. When you don't have a background model upon which to base your understanding, people will either avoid due to lack of knowledge or more likely find a more familiar model. Hence we come back to Silver Flame.
Since their faith may ot be as strict as the Flame seems to be may help this. Plusthe Flames backing by one singular nation cannot help its cause especially after a 100 year conflict between nations. Anyway I think the Sovereign Hosts actual Church may be much bigger and well organized than the Flames. Its job is just different. It does not seek to destroy evil beings or rule the world (at least not in an obvious manner). I bet many politicians and leaders of power are affected by this faith than any other though.
I think this perception about the Flame is just how it is set up by a DM or players. In my current game it took a back seat in the story dept. for the Ascended Host/Goblin pantheon. Religion itself has taken a back seat until recently. I wanted to play a member of the Host just to see if a DM can make the Church as political as I think it should be. In truth it is as much a representation as the real world Catholic Faith than the Silver Flame is IMO.
Edit: Right PJ. The Host even says that the Flame is just an aspect of a memeber of their pantheon. They also do this with the goblin gods. They did this with the orc god Grm'esh I think. That is what they do, they tell you that your not wrong, just that you got the name a little screwed up. It is much easier to gain converts (power) this way.
Leaves you feeling warm and fuzzy inside, all sunshine and lolipops :P .
Then you look at the Sovereign Host, which while never as flashy or as front-page material as the Silver Flame, is probably the most successful belief system on Eberron. And the reason behind that is also the reason behind why it never "seems to get as much air-time" as the Silver Flame. The Sovereigns are a persvasive and persuasive belief system that incorporate everything you say and do into their religion.
Really, PJG has said most of what I would say on the matter. It's always been the intention that the Silver Flame is the younger "activist" church, likewise driven by its strict hierarchies and dogmas... while the Sovereign Host is both more pervasive and simultaneously less unified. It appears in different forms across the world. As such, you DON'T get the SH setting off crusades and the like, because there is no one single spiritual leader of the SH... but you might get a group like the Swords of Karrn, an active force driven in part by its Sovereign faith. The SH is in many ways more about your personal relationship with the Sovereigns than an attempt to transform the world in their name; though individual Sovereign sects may be more active in this regard (and certainly, the missionaries of Pyrine were more active in the days of Old Sarlona and during the early human settlement of Khorvaire).
Looking to NPCs, one that immediate springs to mind is Daca, the pillar saint of Sharn. While she isn't part of any formal church, she's respected as a holy woman touched by Boldrei, who provides guidance to the people of her district. This is another key point to the faith. You have the high priest of the Host in Sharn... but because of the nature of the faith, individual people may choose to place more weight in Daca's words than those of Pthaso. You don't have the same sort of superstars as you have with Flame and Blood, but anyone could become a star in their own right.
Looking to my novels, both Lei and Thorn are followers of the Host, but again, it comes out in a low key way - offering a prayer to the Sovereigns in times of need, but not making a big deal out of this in everyday life. A certain member of the Dark Six plays a major role in The Dreaming Dark trilogy (and if you can't figure it out, I'm not going to say the name)... and in the Queen of Stone, Sheshka's faith in the Shadow comes up occasionally (touching on the faith of the Shadow in Droaam as mentioned in various articles). In City of Stormreach and The Shattered Land you have the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant, another variant Sovereign faith. Drago Thul and the Swords of Karrn are driven by their allegiance to the Three Faces of War, and Drago certainly played a significant role in MY campaign. And then you have Thir, and Ourelonastrix.
I could go on, but my point is that they are out there; it's just a different sort of faith than the Silver Flame, and is likely to inspire different stories. Because of that lack of central leadership and doctrine, it's easier to have a story dominated by the small-scale actions of a particular Sovereign sect - Three Faces of War, Cabinet of Faces, Order of the Broken Blade, etc - without it reflecting on the faith as a whole.
Actually, I'm in doubt considering the "obvious evil" of the Blood of Vol. Creepy? Definitely. But obviously evil? Yes, they do raise the undead and do honour their undead champions as heroes and martyrs but does this automatically mean evil?
In my opinion, the core BoV faith actually isn't evil, as a faith; in fact, I think in the 4E books it may come out as unaligned. It's something that has drifted wildly in presentation, and I believe that in the 4E books it is coming a little closer to the original idea. Yes, it's creepy. Yes, it opposes the Sovereigns. But it's driven by basic philosophical principles. What just god would condemn us to suffering and death? If the gods allow this, might it not be that they CAUSED it, that they do not wish mortals to rise to their level? The BoV is about the struggle against death itself, and the quest to free mortals from the yoke of cruel gods.
The Emerald Claw? Something else entirely. But the basic principle of the BoV is that like many religions in our world, it's something that's often misinterpreted by those outside the faith, and something where the faiths have inherent conflicts. The Silver Flame sees the creation of undead as an amboniation, and this drives them to oppose the BoV. The BoV sees the gods as cruel villains - driving them to oppose the SH. If only we could all set aside our differences and learn to get along!
If you want a plot involving an evil cult summoning evil beyond human reckoning, you can use a Cult of the Dragon Below, or you can use a cult of those who worship the demon within the Silver Flame.
Personally, when I look to a group summoning cosmic evil, I think of the Lords of Dust; technically, the Whisperer in the Flame is an Overlord of the first age, and thus is cult is a LoD arm. Where I usually turn to the Cults of the Dragon Below is for the LITTLE madness in life, as seen in City of Towers. I use the Cults when I want inbred half-orcs who feed people to their gibbering mouther so they can "join the family", or the wizard in Sharn whose eldritch machine (if completed) will cause words to rise up off the pages of books and attack the people around them. To me, a defining element of the CotDB is their lack of a common creed and their ability to spring up anywhere. They CAN be cosmic horror... but they also work well for low-level threats, simply pursuing mad aspirations.
i have to ask Mr. Hellcow, could you expand a bit on the Wu Tang warclan of the Tairnadal?
No.
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...Though rumor has it that many modern members take levels in the Ghost-faced Killer prestige class...
No.Show...Though rumor has it that many modern members take levels in the Ghost-faced Killer prestige class...
I could go on, but my point is that they are out there; it's just a different sort of faith than the Silver Flame, and is likely to inspire different stories. Because of that lack of central leadership and doctrine, it's easier to have a story dominated by the small-scale actions of a particular Sovereign sect - Three Faces of War, Cabinet of Faces, Order of the Broken Blade, etc - without it reflecting on the faith as a whole.
To a certain extent, my mental image of the Silver Flame is based on the Church of the Western world, while my image of the Sovereign Host is based on the syncretic religion of Eastern countries: a mix of Buddhism and various traditional animist religions that lacks central leadership. As such, I agree that the Sovereign Host is better off broken up into independent sects that primarily possess local influence. However, I think that it is important to demonstrate from the beginning that these sects are capable of being major allies or antagonists in a campaign.
For example, a long-standing campaign idea I have been meaning to use involves a conflict between an established sect of the Sovereign Host and the Church of the Silver Flame. The Host sect is an established power in the region, where its leaders and its main temple have enjoyed the support and patronage of the local elite for as long as anyone remembers. However, the Silver Flame has just established a new church in the region, and has begun trying to convert the locals. The established Sovereign Host clergy see this as a threat; if the Silver Flame becomes prominent in the area, the priests of the Sovereign Host sect will lose their income and political influence. So, the established priests use their influence to try and get rid of their new competition. They even resort to arranging attacks against the Silver Flame priests and their church. This is the kind of plots that I think the Sovereign Host can be used for, but isn't really put forward by the Eberron books.
First of all, the Silver Flame seems to have the monopoly on corrupt priests. After all, Cardinal Krozen is the poster boy for Clerics with alignments contrary to their faiths'. It would help take some of the negative press off of the Silver Flame if there were prominent examples of evil priests of Arawai as well.
Second, I would like to see more examples of Sovereign Host priests who possess political influence. Right now, there aren't really any examples I can think of. For that matter, there are very few named priests of the Sovereign Host who are members of major temples. Or even many named major/influential temples. While we do have details on some groups like the Cabinet of Faces, many of these seem more like secret societies and cults with a religious background than organizations that are primarily religious in nature.
I think it would help make the Sovereign Host a lot more interesting if WotC fleshed out the details of the religion more. Just as Zen and Pure Land are widely popular sects of Buddhism, what are the most common and popular sects of the Sovereign Host? What are the most influential temples in Khorvaire? Who are the influential leaders of the various Sovereign Host sects? The fact that the Eberron Campaign Setting book didn't address these questions at all made the Sovereign Host appear to have no power or influence.
First of all, the Silver Flame seems to have the monopoly on corrupt priests.
I consider this a tragic misconception. Not, mind you, unique to you - one that has taken root and spread into many sourcebooks. But it was NEVER supposed to be the case that the SF had a monopoly on corruption; on the contrary, the point is supposed to be that the SF is actively trying to combat it.
Just to break that monopoly, I will point to Maru Sakhesh, a corrupt priest of the Sovereign host in Stormreach, who appears in both the sourcebook and my novels.
But there's an even more critical example of a corrupt priest: Erandis Vol. The Blood of Vol has MUCH more trouble with its corruption than the SF does. At least the actual Keeper of the Flame is true to her faith. Erandis is solely interested in using the faith of her followers as a tool to achieve her personal agenda. This is something that may not have been seen clearly because the BoV was initially presented as being evil and unsuitable for players. As that's something that has been and will be clarified, it will be more clear. The BoV paladin in my group is all about dealing with the corruption in his faith.
For that matter, there are very few named priests of the Sovereign Host who are members of major temples. Or even many named major/influential temples.
I really have to disagree. Pull out Sharn. On page 30 - 31, you have seven Sovereign festivals compared to two SF festivals. High Priest Pthaso Mogan oversees the Pavilion of the Host (in a district called "Sovereign Towers", despite also including the prime temple to the Silver Flame), and I don't really see how the SF cathedral is given any more love or attention than the Pavilion (especially as there's more festivals described for the pavilion!). For fully statted out priests, we have one each for SF, UC, BoV, and SH. Looking to fully described Sovereign temples in Sharn, we have the Korranath (page 40), the Pavilion of the Host (page 46), the Citadel of the Sun (p. 55), the Shrine of the Keeper (p. 58), the Cracked Mirror (p. 62), the Great Hall of Aureon (p. 71), the Shrine of the Shadow (p. 74), Chance (p. 97), the Pool of Onatar's Tears (p. 100), The Temple of the Six (p. 102). and of course Daca's Watch (p. 82)... along with shrines and temples in forty-four districts named but not detailed (listed in the sblock, if you're interested). We also have the Esoteric Order of Aureon on page 147.
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Korran-Thiven (p. 40), Skysedge Park (p. 41), Dava Gate (p. 44), Boldrei's Hearth (p 47), North Towers (p. 48), Olladra's Kitchen (p. 48), Grayflood (p. 50), Ship's Towers (p. 51), Daggerwatch (p 54), Hope's Peak (p. 55), Redstone (p. 56), The Bazaar (p. 57), Hareth's Folly (p. 58), Underlook (page 59), Callestan (p. 61), Malleon's Gate (p. 63), Den'iyas (p. 66), Cassan Bridge (p. 73), Everbright (p. 73), Little Plains (p. 74), Smoky Towers (p. 74), Warden Towers (p. 75), Downstairs (p. 75), Firelight (p. 76), Torchfire (p. 78), Shae Lias (p. 79), Holdfast (p. 81), High Hope (p. 81), North Market (p. 84), Brilliant (p. 86), Copper Arch (p. 88), Pinnacle (p. 88), Twelve Pillars (p. 90), Cornerstone (p. 91), Dancing Shadows (p. 92), Deathsgate (p. 92), Tavick's Market (p. 95), Dragoneyes (p. 97), High Walls (p. 98), Ashblack (p. 99), Blackbones (p. 100), Khyber's Gate (p. 100). Dragon Crypts (p. 104), and Halden's Tomb (p. 105).
Yep. The only way you can beat that is by selling your faith because it has an afterlife while others do not.
Which is why the Sovereign Host fellow would tell you that you only have one life, one life to live all your dreams, so drink it to it's fill, make the most of it and plan in the now. There isn't some fuzzy bunnyrabbits reward or feel-good ending, just the slow decay of Dolurrh and then... well we dunno. But make the most of what you've been granted here and now.
Anywho methinks Hellcow has iterated my original point, the Sovereigns are there and probably in greater numbers that the SF. But it always get's ignored because people (the players and DM alike) find it harder to connect to the Sovereigns than they do the SF.
I've played a non-devout BoV follower and in that campaign the Warforged was a SH follower, while the rest were generally uninterested in religion.
In the last game I ran in Eberron, the party was all Warforged, and generally followed the religion from the RoE book that was about recreating their true God in physical form (can't recall the name of the top of my head).
I think there is an interesting synergy between shifter identity issues (and traditional faith ala moonspeakers) and the politics of the ashbound. The Ashbound being as much about politics as they are about pure religion. I think the moderate Ashbound take works well as a shifter political movement and I think that with the shifters, as a people, the Ashbound perspective becomes more legitimate. People tend to just shrug and dismiss the Ashbound as a bunch of kraaazy terrorists. But if you deal with it as the political movement of a people who really do function much better in a band/tribe setting and are second-class citizens in much of khorvaire, it gains depth and becomes more interesting.
In general, I hope that the new eberron book does a better job of explaining the different forms of druidism as actual legitimate faiths. There was very little explanation of what they actually believed. I didn't even really get a good idea of basic cosmology stuff like:
Are they animistic/monotheistic? If so, what form does it take? What do they think nature is? What are their ethical beliefs?
So yeah, the Ashbound are awesome and so is actually treating druidism like a belief system.
the changeling cleric certainly tries to embody its positive aspects..
Wasn't there a prestige class for Changlings who worshiped the Silver Flame? Or am I thinking of shifters?
On topic I generally make devout Silver Flamers or Elven ancestor worshippers. Most of my group plays semi devout Host Worshippers.
PS. Is Hellcow Keith Baker or just some guy who's full of himself?
PS. Is Hellcow Keith Baker or just some guy who's full of himself?
He's Keith.
Which is why the Sovereign Host fellow would tell you that you only have one life, one life to live all your dreams, so drink it to it's fill, make the most of it and plan in the now. There isn't some fuzzy bunnyrabbits reward or feel-good ending, just the slow decay of Dolurrh and then... well we dunno. But make the most of what you've been granted here and now.
Anywho methinks Hellcow has iterated my original point, the Sovereigns are there and probably in greater numbers that the SF. But it always get's ignored because people (the players and DM alike) find it harder to connect to the Sovereigns than they do the SF.
I have always thought of the SH as Germanic Paganism, the Old Way. Where the gods are present, but you must live you're life, not worry too much about the afterlife, if there is one.
NOTE: The huge obsession with Valhalla was not nearly as huge back in the day, hence my connection with the SH.