Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Drabix Jan 09, 2010 7:49:54	I'm looking for ideas on House Cannith research  to replace the revenue they've lost with the Treaty of Thronehold stopping warforged production.  With the alchemy knowledge, do guns become viable?  Do they try to create some sort of armor powered by dragonshards?  Do they steal elemental binding technology and incorporate it into an elemental powered fighting suit or machinge?  What do peole think?
#2 naturax Jan 09, 2010 8:15:18	I'd like to think that they can't blatantly sell weapons of war to all sides at this point, since the Last War is over and most sides are busy with Cold War projects instead. But I like your idea. You can expand upon the Khyber-shard items in the ECS, making sort of personal elemental-bound vessels. That would be neat.
#3 DarkSamuraiKyo Jan 09, 2010 10:53:17	The Warforged was a product meant for war and the treaty forbids their continued creation and the reassembling and construction of creationforges. But nothing is said in the treaty of making a different type of forge that produces a different type of living construct that is geared towards labor. The design is slim down allowing them to wear clothes (so nobles can customize their favorite servants) and have no combat skill or potential what so ever (besides being shields). This will not violate the treaty as the Workforged aren't renamed Warforged nor are they made from a Creationforge. Also with a war that is now fought in the shadows what profits are to be gained in making replacement clanky and loud fighting constructs instead of focusing on making nobles lives much more simpler? These could be some of the advertisements you might see in Sharn other major cities. Tired of your usual servants grumbling and complaining about how you overwork them and underpay them get yourself a Workforged they never complain and work for free! Tired of having to build a servant quarters in your new manor houses or keeps? Get a Workforged they work day and night with no need for rest! Tired of having to deal with servants too ill to work? Get a Workforged they never become ill and can work year round!
#4 skrapsan Jan 09, 2010 11:38:39	I have always asumed that the ban was more on the basis of the warforged being sentient and not the fact that they were made for war. Because what cannith basically did was slavery and that acording to the code of Gallifar is slavery I would imagine...
#5 DarkSamuraiKyo Jan 09, 2010 12:27:59	I have always asumed that the ban was more on the basis of the warforged being sentient and not the fact that they were made for war. Because what cannith basically did was slavery and that acording to the code of Gallifar is slavery I would imagine... Looking at it like that the treaty wasn't really effective as Warforged are still slaves in some kingdoms (can't spell them from memory so not gonna try right now) stil; the fact remains that the race as a whole will gradually disappear as they have other means of reproducing (that's considered canon...don't want some of my former party members to spam their ideas *shivers) themselves if the treaty was followed to the letter. Aslo they have no where to call home and must deal with racism and take on jobs the other races refuse to take willingly so how is that any different then the slavery they were in the first place? Aslo with my previous idea of making work-oriented constructs it gives the possibility of the Lord of Blades freeing some and stealing the schematics to one of the forges that birth them retool it so it becomes a true Creationforge and then mass produce legions of Warforged who will destroy all biological life on Eberron with the Workforged serving the other needs for an army (medics, labors, etc). Also seeing as House Cannit is in disarray with their main base of operations out of commission this could allow some members of the house who feel betrayed or the like to gather information of their most potential enemies.
#6 Sarlax Jan 10, 2010 2:47:59	The warforged were freed for two reasons. First, they were perceived to be people. This is probably because they're as intelligent as humans, took up faiths voluntarily, and there were three decades worth of humanoid soldiers who could vouch for their humanity. Second, if they're legally people, the nations which formerly owned them are effectively disarmed, delaying the next war. If they'd been treated as property, nations could maintain large stockpiles of weapons, and knowing that they possessed these forces would have been antagonizing. Instead, by freeing the warforged, the Treaty basically demobilizes thousands of troops. If someone wants to start another war, they'll have to spend months rounding those warforged back up. I agree that Cannith would try to find a new moneymaker, particularly since everyone expects another war. I think the most likely actually is that they just keep making warforged in secret. Once war breaks out, the instigator(s) probably won't complain if they're able to get new 'forged soldiers. Prosecuting/attacking Cannith isn't going to be high on any nation's list. Second, they'll want to promise a new superweapon. People are reluctant, usually, to make radical new innovations (the warforged took generations of work, and they're just a refinement on golems), so the new war machine for the Next War will probably be a tweak on an old favorite. Taking some inspiration from current wars, perhaps Cannith will create something like drones - remote control warforged-like bodies which current soldiers can operate remotely. Since Cannith's warforged are based on schema the house found in Xen'drik (where the warforged were designed by the old generation quori as, apparently, remote bodies), I don't think it'd be too difficult for Cannith to create such a device. In fact, if it's based on Xen'drik designs, they might even be operated by dreaming pilots. An experienced soldier goes to sleep in a specially prepared ritual area and "dreams" the battle, so the remote body goes off and fights on his behalf. It's an end-run around the warforged restrictions. We'll see refinements on the airships. These aren't even a decade old, so we're sure to see some major innovations in the technology. We may even see the development of real-world analogues. Since Lyrandar commands the sea and sky, maybe they'll make (with Cannith) the equivalent of aircraft-carriers: vast airborn islands from which airships can be launched. I don't think we'd see something quite like firearms. The concept - make something explode so something else flies really fast - isn't used in Eberron's technology. What's need is something that can do the job of firearms. The thing that made guns popular on Earth was not force or penetration (longbows are capable of punching through an armored knight) but ease of use. For Cannith to create an equivalent, they need a magic weapon which can be put in anyone's hands and fired. Upon writing that, perhaps the best weapon would be one which magically imparted proficiency when held. A longbow is an excellent weapon, but because it's a military grade weapon, it takes extra effort (the equivalent of a feat) to be used. Imagine, though, if simply holding it granted one knowledge of how to use it correctly. Now you can just make a bunch, hand them to farmers, and bam! You have an instant army. WMDs are also a possibility. Imagine a "remote" binding object. It contains several angry elementals, and when activated (perhaps by proximity to the elements), the elementals are released, but are still forced to stay within a certain area. A City Burner might activate when exposed to heat and release a dozen magma hurlers, a dozen firebats, and a pack of hellhounds. The beasts must remain within a mile of the activated object, and their rage drives them to burn down the city. A similar device might release dozens of earth elementals, whose furious burrowing destroys any castle in the area. The creation of the Mournland might inspire the development of devices the create new manifest zones (temporarily or permanently). Perhaps one item creates a very brief zone to Irian that blinds everyone for a mile with supernatural burning light. An item to Shavarath makes people turn on each other in a rage. For a closer real-world analogue, look to Fernia and Risia. A short zone to Fernia would be similar to a conventional fission bomb, burning down an entire city. A zone to Risia, though, would be more like a neutron bomb, bringin on deadly cold but leaving infrastructure intact. Cannith might also become a little more devious. What about the equivalent of an EMP device? An item that produced an anti-magic effect that simply shut down magic items could be devestating. In this case, Cannith might even build some of its own devices to be vulnerable to this weapon, both so that they could be sure no items of their own making could be used against them, and so that they could secretly market the option to rivals of their own customers. The last idea I have now is for "temporary" magic items. Normally, magic items last forever. A magic sword can sit in a tomb for a thousand years and be like-new. What if Cannith finds a cheaper way to make magic items, but they aren't permanent? A normal +1 shortsword costs 360 GP and is good for centuries. What if, though, Cannith could make a Fading +1 Shortsord for 120 GP that loses its magic (or even disintegrates) after a few years? Many nations would jump at the discount so they could buy more, hoping that the war ended quickly enough for them to not need the lost years of effectiveness. Cannith gets to make more money, though, since they can now supply magic weapons to every soldier instead of just the elites.
#7 Madfox11 Jan 10, 2010 10:39:16	Of course, Cannith would make more money WITHOUT a new war. While a war can at first be a great boon to the economy (especially of countries not directly touched by the war) in the end it will ruin it. I always find it odd to think that the whole of Cannith (or any other houses for that matter - with the possible exception of Deneith) would want any new war. Then again, that might actually be the true basis for the conflict between the different factions of House Cannith, those specialized in weapons want something completely different from the other artificers of the house. As for the warforge, I always thought the creation forges were forbidden for the implications of being able to create sapient life-form from inanimate matter. Even if you look beyond the clear economical threat behind the existence of warforged, there are also some serious philosophical and ethical issues. Furthermore, apparently their design is based on some kind of Xen'drik magic? Can you even trust the warforged? What is to say that at some point what ever magic is behind them does not take them over instantly (e.g. as in the movie "I, Robot")? Finally, it almost looks like the Mourning started at the creation forge in Cyre. Sure, it could be anything else, but nobody knows, and now we have the Lord of Blades opperating from the Morning? Couldn't the same happen with any other creation forge? I suspect the only reason they were approved in the first place was the war. Note though that that will not stop Cannith from trying to make simpler homuniculis for labor, after all, you do not need a creation forge to make clay scouts or iron defenders. I just do not see the nations agreeing to allow artificers a second shot at the creation forges even if for laborers. Especially since nothing forces the warforged to be soldiers. They are already perfect cheap labor.
#8 DarkSamuraiKyo Jan 10, 2010 11:00:52	Actually the magic that makes the Cannith Warforged is not the same as the magic used to make the Xen'drik Warforged. The magic used to make the Xen'drik Warforged (I lack the books that cover this so it sketchy) allows the Quori to use them bascally as easier to possessed Inspired. Still the fact still remains that magic is magic it has no laws, no rules, no restrictions which it must follow all such things are simply attempts to explain something that is beyond mortal understanding. As such anything made by magic should be given a healthy amount of respect because if a Artificier, wizard, etc knows the right spell that golem you have protecting you could suddenly attack you. Also the Warforged were approved long before the war the original King before his death and his children tearing apart his kingdom asked the head of House Cannith to craft superior soldiers forseeing a threat to his kingdom after his death. The treaty was basically a way to get rid of the Warforged without having to bring ethics or moral philosophical issues with the peasanty and soldiers who have come to look to them as equals. following it to the letter the Warforged over the course of the years would take on adventuring lacking the knowledge of peace and lives before war and evnetually be destroyed slowly and surely by the dangers of that occupation. With no creationforges running the Warforged would eventually fade from existence and economy will return to normal. Also this would not allow some hidden heir or existing heir to the throne to assemble a large army and strike while the others are weakened. However with the Lord of Blades and the head of House Cannith illegally making more this has staled the eventual demise of the Warforged however even with these creationforges running the Warforged are a doom race without a renwal of the Last War or a new war altogether. As for guns simply take a crossbow redesign it so its so simple that a commoner could pick up fire it reload it and make specially made crossbow bolts that are smaller and hollow allowing alchemist to fill them with special kinds of liquids such as Alchemist Fire or poisonous gas and there you guns that fit with Eberron. Remember the first guns were simple that basically everyone could use.
#9 skrapsan Jan 10, 2010 23:36:00	I still doubt that it would be allowed by the other nations. Just because of the signal effect it gives out. "Ah yes we now sell non millitary forged, at least to you, but we might be selling actual warforged to the others we just dont like you" Then I rather think that they would make  fully fledged forge in Xen'drik first and just reveal it when/if the war startes anew. Besides, what stops the other nations from buying a workforged and then just train it to become a solidier?
#10 Madfox11 Jan 11, 2010 3:22:01	Actually the magic that makes the Cannith Warforged is not the same as the magic used to make the Xen'drik Warforged. The magic used to make the Xen'drik Warforged (I lack the books that cover this so it sketchy) allows the Quori to use them bascally as easier to possessed Inspired. Still the fact still remains that magic is magic it has no laws, no rules, no restrictions which it must follow all such things are simply attempts to explain something that is beyond mortal understanding. As such anything made by magic should be given a healthy amount of respect because if a Artificier, wizard, etc knows the right spell that golem you have protecting you could suddenly attack you. I have never read that the quori crafted the warforged as vessels. At the time they could actually enter the world physically since this was before the Plane of Dreams was sunderred by the giants. Regardless, that would be just a wild theory since there is absolutely no solid evidence about what happened during that conflict. To be perfectly honest, I doubt people know little more then that there were apparently warforged on Xen'drik and perhaps a few even know that they were part of the extraplanar forces opposing the giants (if even that). It was only a minor part of my arguments, and the weakest at that. Regardless, I disagree with you on the magic part. Magic in Eberron is predictable. The whole idea behind magic as a replacement for technology is that it is predictable and follows the same rules (the ritual nature of 4E only strengthens it). As for the last line, any spellcaster can do the same with normal sapient creatures with the right spell. That fact is not going to change a person's attitude toward hommunicullis (sp?) or golems. Also the Warforged were approved long before the war the original King before his death and his children tearing apart his kingdom asked the head of House Cannith to craft superior soldiers forseeing a threat to his kingdom after his death. Your definition of long differs from mine, but remember that it took 7 decades in the war to get at the point were sapient warforged were created. At the time the king made his request, he was thinking about soldiers of golem-level strength that were cheaper to create, and easier to maintain (at least a bare minimum of intellect). I sincerely doubt he himself even considered the possibility of warforged. Mind you, whomever influenced him (e.g. if you want the quori to be behind the trouble) might have put him on the path exactly since they know they can influence the warforged (your theory of warforged being vessels for the quori would actually fit perfectly with such a story). However with the Lord of Blades and the head of House Cannith illegally making more this has staled the eventual demise of the Warforged however even with these creationforges running the Warforged are a doom race without a renwal of the Last War or a new war altogether. The Cannith member creating warforged in Sharn is NOT the head of the House. In fact, if I remember correctly he is not even an official contender for the position. I suspect if the world ever learns of that forge, House Cannith would instantly destroy it. The repurcursions would be to dire if they did not.
#11 DarkSamuraiKyo Jan 11, 2010 9:18:59	I still doubt that it would be allowed by the other nations. Just because of the signal effect it gives out. "Ah yes we now sell non millitary forged, at least to you, but we might be selling actual warforged to the others we just dont like you" Then I rather think that they would make  fully fledged forge in Xen'drik first and just reveal it when/if the war startes anew. Besides, what stops the other nations from buying a workforged and then just train it to become a solidier? Well nothing stops the workforged from be converted into weaker warforged by the nations but it does....sort of bend the treaty's rules against the making of Warforged and the Creationforge that spawns them while also giving the house the ability to make profits. Plus yes not all nations would allow it but some (those who call them 'indebted servants' to bend the rules of the treaty to their advantage) might actually find the idea of assembling armies of cheap and expendable soldiers in secret waiting for the right time to strike. I have never read that the quori crafted the warforged as vessels. At the time they could actually enter the world physically since this was before the Plane of Dreams was sunderred by the giants. Regardless, that would be just a wild theory since there is absolutely no solid evidence about what happened during that conflict. To be perfectly honest, I doubt people know little more then that there were apparently warforged on Xen'drik and perhaps a few even know that they were part of the extraplanar forces opposing the giants (if even that). It was only a minor part of my arguments, and the weakest at that. Regardless, I disagree with you on the magic part. Magic in Eberron is predictable. The whole idea behind magic as a replacement for technology is that it is predictable and follows the same rules (the ritual nature of 4E only strengthens it). As for the last line, any spellcaster can do the same with normal sapient creatures with the right spell. That fact is not going to change a person's attitude toward hommunicullis (sp?) or golems. Well Like I said that theory was based on the scant few details I heard and read others say about them so I don't know a lot about them. but I still think the magic that animates them are different due to the Quori probably have their own unique magic as well as that mortals could use. I haven't played 4E due to not having anyone in town that plays D&D at the moment that owns any 4E books. anyways yes to most it seems magic is predictable but that is the methods and rules set down by mortal spellcasters long ago that allow them to cast their spells. New spells are invented or discovered all the time as magic can be harnessed and focus infinite ways and can also respond to the call of mortals in different ways. Look at the Mournlands and the mysteries that surround it. This is a perfect example of magic gone rampant. Even if this was done intentionally the effects on magic and magic items it has is random and unpredictable. It might improve your Vorpal weapon it might downgrade it. It might make you healing spell hurt someone or something as weak as cure minor wounds fully restore someone. the possibilities of what it could do to you are endless and limited only by the imagination of the DM that is running a campaign into the mournlands.   Your definition of long differs from mine, but remember that it took 7 decades in the war to get at the point were sapient warforged were created. At the time the king made his request, he was thinking about soldiers of golem-level strength that were cheaper to create, and easier to maintain (at least a bare minimum of intellect). I sincerely doubt he himself even considered the possibility of warforged. Mind you, whomever influenced him (e.g. if you want the quori to be behind the trouble) might have put him on the path exactly since they know they can influence the warforged (your theory of warforged being vessels for the quori would actually fit perfectly with such a story). True the King probably didn't have Warforged in mind but he did ask House Cannith to make legions of construct soldiers that could keep up in battle instead of the normal golems which were useless in terms of giving them complex orders or expecting them to be able to cope with changing tactics. and no I doubt the Quori had anything to do with it or else they be trying to use the Cannith Warforged right now. but I do like the idea it would make a interesting eberron campaign. The Cannith member creating warforged in Sharn is NOT the head of the House. In fact, if I remember correctly he is not even an official contender for the position. I suspect if the world ever learns of that forge, House Cannith would instantly destroy it. The repurcursions would be to dire if they did not. Oh ok. One of the things I was told was he was the original head of the House that went insane and thought the Warforged his children and is running the illegal creationforge every once in awhile to keep them from disappearing or something. Another is its the original head's son who is making more warforged in Sharn. Another is one of the Artificers of the family of the head that got disowned due to him wanting to make more warforged and so now he runs that illegal forge.
#12 skrapsan Jan 12, 2010 12:13:56	The Cannith member creating warforged in Sharn is NOT the head of the House. In fact, if I remember correctly he is not even an official contender for the position. I suspect if the world ever learns of that forge, House Cannith would instantly destroy it. The repurcursions would be to dire if they did not. If you are thinking of Merix d'Cannith he is in fact the direct descendandt of the original creator of the Warforged and one of the 3 persons batling over the title as the supreme ruler of the house. Only he isnt really that interested, at least not in the buisness part. All he wants to is to play mad scientist all day long... But he is the one best possisioned for the spot when it comes to familly ties. Its just his lack of social interest that makes it all a bit hard.